Xie Nanxing - STEPFATHER HAS AN IDEA! by LAB

谢南星继父有主意！

XIE NANXING

STEPFATHER HAS AN IDEA!

目录 CONTENTS

本画册为谢南星个展“继父有主意!”而出版 2010年5月22日至7月9日展出于中国北京麦勒画廊北京-卢森 2010年8月27日至10月16日展出于瑞士卢森麦勒画廊北京-卢森

绘画与观众

This catalogue was published on the occasion of Xie Nanxing’s solo exhibition “STEPFATHER HAS AN IDEA!” at Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing-Lucerne, Beijing, China, from May 22 to July 9, 2010 at Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing-Lucerne, Lucerne, Switzerland, from August 27 to October 16, 2010

Painting and the Beholder

致谢刘懋琪, 张爽秋, 丁达韦, 娜布其, 麦勒画廊北京-卢森全体工作人员及其他相关朋友

—— 海因茨-诺贝尔特·约克斯对话谢南星文: 海因茨-诺贝尔特 · 约克斯

Heinz-Norbert Jocks In Conversation with Xie Nanxing by Heinz-Norbert Jocks

简历 Biography

版权 Imprint

Acknowledgements Liu Maoqi, Zhang Shuangqiu, David Spalding, Na Buqi, the staff at Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing-Lucerne and to all the people who have participated or assisted in the realisation of this project.

绘画与观众 —— 海因茨-诺贝尔特 · 约克斯对话谢南星

Painting and the Beholder Heinz-Norbert Jocks In Conversation with Xie Nanxing

文：海因茨 - 诺贝尔特 · 约克斯

by Heinz-Norbert Jocks

海因茨-诺贝尔特 · 约克斯（Heinz-Norbert Jocks，以下简称约）：看了你许多画，我的印象是，你的画和文学走得很近。

HNJ: When viewing many of your paintings I have the impression there is a proximity to literature.

谢南星（以下简称谢）：你在我画里看到的文字的东西其实没有什么内容。作为艺术家，打交道的是生命中发生的事情。凡是与艺术或者文化联系紧密的东西都与文学有关。文学是一种精神，贯穿着我们的生活。文学与视觉艺术的关系本身就很独特。我想通过我最新的这个充满文字痕迹的系列作品来阐述一下它们的关系：通过文字──我们可以想象出人、图像以及情节。

XNX: Yet the literary that you think you recognize in my work has no content. As an artist I occupy myself with what happens in life. The things which stand in a close relationship with art or culture always have something to do with literature. It is like a spirit which cuts through our lives. It is less important to me which works or which writers someone likes. I find the relationship between literature and visual art especially significant. What can visual art do that literature doesn’t provide? It is perhaps best if I illustrate the relationship once with the help of the new series of pictures, which are full of writing. What I had in mind was that thanks to the writing one could imagine people as well as images and actions. HNJ: How do you see the relationship between symbols and images?

约：你怎么看符号和图像的关系？谢：我们举“屁股”这个词当例子。实际上这就是个符号，我们通过它可以想到屁股的不同形式。那些与这个词相关的东西也让人联想。我觉得文学的内容不是最重要的，而是那些碎片化的词，它们激发着我们的幻想。约：能不能说说你为什么要画画？谢：这可能和我小时候听过很多传奇故事有关，从小我就爱听人讲故事；另外我父母也从事绘画。总而言之，我的画里重要的东西是关联、联想和人的心理问题。约：你说到你的父母也从事绘画。能不能详细讲一讲？你对绘画的想象是否随着时间的改变而发生了变化？谢：先说我父母：我父亲是搞油画创作的，母亲也是画家，画中国画的题材。我小时候对绘画的想象和我现在完全不同。这些年我的绘画观念发生了很多次转变，唯一不变的是我对绘画的喜爱。必须承认，你的问题让我有些烦躁。可能是因为你想促使我回顾我的生活史的原因，问题是我根本不知道从何开始。另外我也会问自己，把一个人的生活史牵扯进来是否有意义。把我从小到现在的个人成长都说给你听，这重要吗？我更喜欢发明历史。我很理解你想要更多了解我的愿望，但我不是特别喜欢这种方式。对每个艺术家你都可以这样问：成长经历如何、生活中有什么体验、怎么开始走上绘画道路的、受到过谁的影响、怎样成长为独立艺术家的。但我很犹豫，因为我不确定这种正史是否真实。直到现在我也没有从中发现能真的让我受到启发、或者可以说服我的东西。总而言之，我对绘画史中的全部描述持怀疑态度。约：给我的印象是，这些问题你已经问过自己了？谢：是的，恰巧，不久前我反思过我作为画家的成长史，我很怀疑，我今天做的是否还与小时候的事情真的有什么联系。我觉得没有。或许我在个人发展史上扮演的只是一个配角。我们不去沿着生活轨迹往下谈会比较好。我觉得我们停留在想象的领域比较有意义，可以只关注各种各样的闪光点。

XNX: Let us take as an example a word like “buttocks”. It actually has to do with symbols through which we see the most varied forms of buttocks. But we also associate with it that which has a connection to the word. Literary contents are not important to me, but rather the fragmentary, which stimulates our vision or imagination. HNJ: Can you actually say why you paint? XNX: Why I incline towards painting possibly has to do with the fact that I heard so many legends as a child. I was told stories from when I was very young. In addition, my parents were also involved in painting. All in all, my painting deals with the connections as well as the associations, and also the mental questions. HNJ: Before, you spoke about the relationship your parents had to painting. Could you elucidate this a bit more? And has your perception of painting changed over time? XNX: First of all about my parents: my father was occupied with oil painting, and my mother is also a painter who deals with traditional Chinese themes. The perception that I had of painting as a small boy is different from the one I have today. My idea of it has changed several times over the course of the decades. The sole thing that has remained is my love of it. I must confess that your questions irritate me a little. Perhaps it is also because you want to encourage me to go back to my life story. My problem is that I don’t even know where I should begin there. In addition, I ask myself if it even makes sense to introduce one’s life story. Is it really important, to disclose to you my individual development from childhood to now? I would prefer to invent such a story. I do understand that you want to know more about me, in order to understand the development of my artistic creation, but I don’t particularly like it. You can ask every artist how he grew up, what he experienced in his life, how he began to paint, who he was influenced by and how his path to becoming an independent artist proceeded. But I hesitate, because I am not so sure if these official stories are even true. Until now I haven’t found anything which is really clear to me or which convinces me. All in all, I’m sceptical about all statements in the history of art. HNJ: My impression is that you have asked yourself such questions, haven’t you? XNX: Yes, and exactly because I only recently thought about my own history as an artist, I am sceptical whether that which I do today really still touches on events from my childhood. I don’t think that there is still a connection there. Therefore, individual development plays a supporting role at best. Maybe we can speak with each other without following the biographical trail. Because in my opinion it makes more sense if we stay in the realm of perception, where the most varied points figure.

约：之前你说，更好玩的是发明一种生活史。我们把这种形式称作“虚构性自传”，你为什么对它情有独钟？

HNJ: You said before, it was more fun for you to invent a biography. Why do you tend more towards what we call autofiction?

谢：我很理解我们这种谈话进行的方式，因为你刚认识我不久。你的考察还是正确的。换作我刚认识你的话，我进入谈话的方式也会和你类似。要是你接下来的问题和我们谈论过的没有因果上的联系，我会觉得谈话更有趣。这样的话题可以不断

XNX: I find this kind of approach understandable because you are just getting to know me. Your enquiries aren’t wrong. If I were to meet you for the first time, I would act similarly. I would find it interesting if your questions didn’t feature any causal connection to that which we had already talked about. Such subjects can be expansive.

延展下去。

HNJ: What does your painting grapple with? Which topics do you pursue?

约：你的绘画创作涉及到什么东西？你深入探讨的是哪些主题？谢：我的画关乎一切，涉及不同的问题。你想要多了解的这个主题太大了，很难在这样的谈话中作出回答。我看还是把话题限定

XNX: My painting has to do with everything. It refers to completely different questions. The subject you want to know more about is too large to adequately deal with in such a conversation. I would like to limit it to the current series. Incidentally, it has to do with change, play, fantasy and the lack of understanding towards paintings. Painting and curiosity are almost synonymous for me. I paint that which arouses my curiosity.

在我最新的这个系列作品上。这个系列探讨的是改变、游戏、幻想和针对图像的不理解等等。绘画对我来说几乎是好奇的

HNJ: Let us speak more about the lack of understanding! What about it?

同义词。我画的是引起我好奇的东西。

XNX: What I paint now cannot be understood. It has nothing to do with the human memory of events and also nothing to do with the true course of any stories. It also doesn’t help if one knows that the intention of the series consists in placing visual images in a relation with schematic drawings or representations. Underlying it is the desire for simplification. Through it, painting becomes an example for visual relationships. What I mean by this can be better understood if we turn to criminology. When the police want to solve a case, they also make drawings in order to develop an image of the perpetrator. In this way, they observe why and where he moves, and also his habits. But they cannot make a portrait of him; they note a couple symbols and arrows on the drawings, in order to represent the situation. Based on such an emblematic representation they can imagine the reality. I would like to bring this form of representation into painting. It was always in my mind to reduce elaborate representations of figures to schematic drawings. I am convinced that our imagination can connect everything together and create coherence. This skill sets people apart from all other animals.

约：我们来谈谈“不理解”吧！什么叫做“不理解”？谢：我现在画的东西是无法理解的。它们与人类对于事件的记忆或者与任何一项历史的真实进程都没有关系。就算知道这个系列作品的意图是将画与示意图联系起来，你也得不到什么解读上的帮助。把画画成示意图的样子，这里面的愿望是追求简单化。绘画变成了视觉关系的研究。我们举警察破案的例子可能有助于更好地理解我的话。警察侦查案件时，同样会画图，比如罪犯的活动示意图。通过这张图，警察可以观察到罪犯活动的方式和去向，以及他的习惯等等。但是警察不会画画，就在图上记录下一些符号和箭头，以描述犯罪现场的状况。通过这种符号化的表现方式，警察就可以在头脑中设想现实的样子。我想把这种表现方式引入到绘画中来。我脑中一直有这样的想法，把具体形象的东西简化为示意图。我相信想象力可以把一切联系起来，让他们产生关联。这种能力是人与其他生命形式区分开来的独到之处。约：回到刚才记忆的话题：你为什么不相信记忆？记忆缺乏可信性吗？

HNJ: To return again to memory. Why do you mistrust it? Does it lack authenticity? XNX: Memory tends to exaggerate and creates something new through this. For example, one says that the last summer was very hot, but in reality it wasn’t even so hot as we remember it. One always says one’s first girlfriend was the most beautiful. When you compare this with the reality, it isn’t true at all. HNJ: As a painter, do you let questions guide you?

谢：记忆总是会夸大事实，捏造新的东西出来。比如说，人们常说，去年夏天很热，但实际上根本没有记忆中的那么热。人们也常说，第一个女朋友是最美的，但是放到现实中来，事情却不是这样。约：作为画家，你的创作是由问题引导出来的吗？

XNX: While painting, one constantly considers some elementary or basic questions such as: why do I paint? What is transformed in painting? Why do you as a painter allow your feelings to be expressed in painting? Such things are reflected upon while you paint. I have come to the conclusion that painting always has something to do with training as well as with imitation. HNJ: How would you describe your most recent paintings to a blind person?

谢：画画的时候人脑子里想到的都是一些元素性的基本问题，比如：我为什么画画？画里传达了什么？作为画家，你为什么要将你的情感在绘画中表现出来？绘画中反思的是这些问题。我的结论是，绘画一直和教育以及模仿相关。约：你怎么向一个盲人描述你最新的画？谢：找出最诱人的几个主题，让盲人把眼睛睁开。约：但盲人毕竟是盲人，他们无法睁开眼睛。谢：盲人这个例子说服不了我，因为他感知的东西与我们日常生活中的观看方式有关。比如他想象一棵树，这棵树的样子和他听到过的或者看到过的样子脱离不开，也就是说，常规的图像已经在他的记忆里形成了。他的世界不是空空如也，等着被

XNX: I could single out some of the most beautiful themes, so that the blind person opens his eyes. HNJ: But the blind person is blind, he can no longer open his eyes. XNX: The example with a blind person doesn’t convince me, because what he perceives has to do with our everyday vision. When he imagines a tree, it has to do with what he has heard or seen before. His memory is full of conventional images. His world isn’t a void to be filled. It isn’t necessary to describe a picture to a blind person. He only has to listen to the sounds and the silence, and then he is capable of fitting what he hears to a conception. Our visual world is not identical to that of a blind person. They make their own world for themselves. HNJ: A mental leap: how much do you, as an artist, draw on art history? XNX: For me, it’s definitely not about any “ism”. In my opinion, the categories in the history of painting aren’t correct. They are artificial measures or constructs. It would be more appropriate if one would newly categorise painting on the basis of artistic personalities. Only based on the fact that painting is pushed forward by personalities can one even

填充。没必要向盲人描述一幅画，他只需要聆听，有声音的，没有声音的，然后把听到的在想象中组合起来。我们的视觉世界与盲人不同，他们有自己的世界。

约：我们让思维跳跃一下，作为艺术家，你如何看待自己和艺术史的关系？

talk about styles in the history of painting. Let us take the idea of the Romantic person. In my opinion it never went out of fashion. If one solely dedicates oneself to Romanticism, one ignores that one can also find the Romantic in the Renaissance. Based on this, the definition of Romanticism appears to be questionable. All the definitions in art history are basically inventions of scholars with an urge to categorize. As soon as one is immersed in reality, one will cease to use such definitions. HNJ: Did you read texts by the Romantics, such as “Hymns to the Night” by Novalis?

谢：我不关心任何“主义”的东西。绘画史的分类方式在我看来是有问题的，是人为操作或者建构的产物。要是把绘画按照艺术家的个性分类会更合适些。绘画史的发展是由艺术家个性决定的，承认这个事实，才能谈绘画史上的风格。比如说到浪漫主义的创作：我觉得浪漫主义从来没有过时，有的人认为它只是浪漫主义时期的风格，这就忽略了一个事实，即浪漫主义的东西其实早在文艺复兴时期就有了。所以有关浪漫主义的定义是有问题的。艺术史中的全部定义基本上都是研究者为了分类而发明出来的。一旦进入现实层面，你就不会再去用这些定义。

约：你有没有读过一些浪漫主义的作品，比如诺瓦利斯的《夜之颂歌》？

谢：没读过，我必须承认，我对浪漫主义这个领域知之有限。所以我们可以不用谈这个话题了。不过我对绘画的怀疑某种程度上也是浪漫主义的，这有点讽刺。我要做的就是把我对绘画当下状况的怀疑诉诸表达。据我所知，没有其他人也在这么做。我保护形象绘画的方式是把它们画成示意图的样子，但这与观众对绘画的期待形成矛盾。观众看到我最近的画，感到糊涂，我觉得很正常。这和我拒绝的姿态也一致。

约：评论说你的绘画与当代史发生关系，也运用了新媒体的元素。

谢：我的创作一直在发展。要说我的绘画与当代史和新媒体的联系，你想到的肯定是我的两个系列作品。谈论我的画最恰当、最生动和最精确的方法，是把画放在眼前我们一起看。直接的观看有助于语言的精确表达。

约：我眼前正好有一幅画，一个年轻男子赤裸着身体，内裤脱下来，脸上有血迹，头靠向一边，坐在马桶上；他后面是一女一男，很明显是他的父母，站在那里。还有一幅画，画中一个赤裸身体的人躺在地上，逆光很强，地上的人可能是死了或者睡着了的样子。看了这幅画后我会问，当下的图像与记忆中的图像是否有什么联系。

谢：从彼到此的发展是很缓慢的。一般来说，我在绘画中处理的是语言，也就是表达形式。

约：你的画和现实事件有关系吗？

谢：你这么问，让我有被审问的感觉。要是我们能面对面坐在一起，问题就不解自答了。因为你期待的“招供”需要一些其他的证据来证明。我们还是回到我最新的这个作品系列上，从中可以看出我创作的发展轨迹。我想知道，能不能用一种更为符号化的图像语言取代复杂的图像语言，比如用来画格林童话里的“白雪公主和七个人小矮人”。这个画可以画得很漂亮，也可以很色情。我想要避免的是强奸观众的意志。重要的是，借助符号和文字的帮助引发观众联想，让他根据眼前看到的东西把不同的元素连接到一起。

约：符号和图像的功能并不相同。

XNX: No, I have to confess that I only have a moderate knowledge of the area of Romanticism. Therefore we shouldn’t linger longer over it. But my sceptical position towards painting is Romantic in a certain way. Something ironic adheres to it as well. I try to express my doubts about the current state of painting in that which I do. I don’t know any other painters who follow a similar approach. I defend figurative painting by bringing it into connection with schematic drawings or representations, but in doing so I contradict the expectations that the viewer has of the painting. It’s perfectly fine by me if, in the face of my most recent paintings, he enters a state of confusion. That also corresponds to my contradictory position. HNJ: One says of your painting that it touches on recent history and deals with new media. XNX: My creation is constantly changing. When you refer to my painting’s proximity to contemporary history and the new media, you are then thinking of two specific series. We speak the most adequately, animatedly and precisely about my pictures when we have them in front of us. The immediate moment helps with the precision of the linguistic approach. HNJ: At the moment I am picturing the paintings where a young man is sitting on a toilet with blood on his face and his head leaning to one side, and a woman and a man, apparently his parents, are standing behind him, or the painting of a naked man lying on the floor in a glistening backlight, perhaps dead or only sleeping. I ask myself if contact lines can be drawn between the most recent and the remembered pictures. XNX: The development from there to here took place slowly. Within painting I generally engage myself with language, that is with forms of expression. HNJ: Do your older paintings have nothing to do with real events? XNX: When you ask about it like that, I feel like I am in a police interrogation. If we were sitting face to face, all the problems would solve themselves. Because such confessions like you expect require other evidence. But let us return again to the current series. At issue there is a complex history of the development of my creation. I want to know if it is possible to develop a different, more symbolic language instead of a complex pictorial one, in order to represent fairy tales like “Snow White and the Seven Dwarves” by the Brothers Grimm. One can design it beautifully as well as erotically. However, I want to avoid raping the viewer with my pictures. What matters to me is, with the help of symbols and writing, to arouse the imagination of the viewer in such a way that, based on what he sees, he imagines and combines how the one is connected to the other. HNJ: Symbols function differently than pictures. XNX: Yes, it was important to me to shorten that which was behind the writing in another way. For example, when I speak of a beautiful bottom, then you immediately begin to imagine something concrete. Why is it that one can’t actually implement images in literature? In calligraphy, writing and image are so interwoven that each gains a second meaning. With us in China, as you know, based on our culture, a relationship can be established between visual art and literature. In the West this is completely different. There one makes a clear distinction between visual art and the art of words, which makes communication between the two impossible. But why can literature not be an aspect of visual art? This questions borders on that of transcending boundaries. In addition there are different goals. According to who paints a tree, whether Picasso, Liu Xiaodong, or whoever, it always produces completely different feelings in the viewer. On the other hand, I as a painter borrow the function of literature and cover the tree with writing. I have used symbols so that the viewer can also imagine his own picture of the tree.

谢：没错，我关心的是把藏在文字背后的东西用其他的方式进行缩减。比如我说“漂亮的屁股”，你马上就会进行具体的想象。为什么不能把图像放到文学中去呢？书法艺术中，文字和图像是交结在一起的，互相给予了另一层涵义。你知道，中国文化中，视觉艺术和文学完全是关联着的。在西方则是另一回事，视觉艺术和文字艺术界限清晰，无法产生交集。文学为什么不能是造型艺术的一部分呢？这是一个跨界的问题。而且目标也不尽相同。无论是谁画一棵树，毕加索也好、刘小东也好，观众对图像的情感反应一定各不相同。与之相反，作为画家我要借用文学的功能，把树用文字包裹住。这是用符号来创作，让观众可以对树有一个自己的想象。

HNJ: That means? XNX: From an aesthetic point of view one would prefer to see a beautifully painted tree and expect a style. One asks oneself whether the representation of the tree originates in a particular culture or whether one can perceive a change in it over time. But I no longer want to serve this system of convergence. I would like to shorten the pictures to symbols in order to produce a simplification. Because images of writing function relatively easily. On this subject a Chinese proverb occurs to me: “One can find a hair in the soup everywhere”, in this case, within the writing. Even such proverbs can be understood instantly. And one can also provoke the viewer with it. HNJ: Which artistic positions do you relate to at the moment?

约：你的意思是？谢：美学角度上讲，大家更愿意看到一棵画的很美的树，希望这棵画出来的树有某种风格。有人会问，这棵树的画法是不是和某种文化类型相应，或者从中能读出时代转变的痕迹。但是我不想再服从于这种方法系统了。我想要把图像缩减为符号，达到一种简化的效果，是理解起来很简单的东西。我想起一句成语：吹毛求疵，在我们的谈话里，这个“毛”指的是“语言”。这样的成语让人们马上就能理解它的意思。所以，用这种方法在绘画中很挑衅。

XNX: When it comes to painting itself, then there are no standards. What the artist makes is always inimitable and unique. Painting requires a certain degree of self-confidence. What we translate into our system comes from traditional art education. Calligraphy is only one aspect. All in all, painting is more familiar to me than calligraphy, because it offers significantly more freedom for spontaneity. Painting is like writing a diary. Other mediums which have to do with painting would also interest me. Freedom in painting allows me to express my thoughts in the way I would like to. For me it is a natural state. In doing so, of course I am interested in the form. The way I paint is relatively simple. I have neither a specific form nor do I follow a special style. Limiting myself formally as well as stylistically blocks something in me. HNJ: Are there no other painters that you feel especially close to?

约：那么你觉得自己属于什么风格的艺术家？谢：就绘画本身来说，没有什么是规定好的。艺术家所作的总是唯一的、一次性的。绘画是以某种程度的自信为前提的。我们在现有系统中翻译的东西来自于传统的艺术教育。书法只是其中的一方面。不管怎样，我更熟悉绘画，而不是书法，因为绘画给予的自由空间更大，随意性更强。画画就像写日记。其他与绘画有关的媒介我也感兴趣。绘画的自由使我可以用我喜欢的方式表达我的思想，这对我来说是一种常态。当然我对形式也感兴趣。我画画的方式挺简单的，既没有特殊的形式，也没有独特的风格。内心上我很抗拒从形式上或者风格上限制自己的创作。

XNX: No, it isn’t the case that I engage myself with other painters in detail. Of course I know the history of painting, without immersing myself in it too much. The artists with which I engage myself more change from time to time. There isn’t anyone who was a direct example for me. Recently I was interested in a particular creative period of Francis Picabia, where he dedicated himself to kitsch, like the cover pages of porn magazines. Although he was already established then, when he painted these pictures he encountered a lot of hostility from critics. They were especially outraged because of the nudity of the woman. Yet in the meantime these paintings also belong to the inventory of art history, because eventually one did recognise the aesthetic novelty in them. Painting is indeed the territory of the painter. That is virtually one half of it. The other is provided by the viewers and critics, as one sees in the example of Picabia. HNJ: Where or how did you even see the paintings of Picabia?

约：有没有哪个艺术家对你来说尤为重要？

不定的，没有哪个艺术家对我来说是可以直接膜拜的榜样。最近我对弗兰西斯·皮卡比亚的某个创作时期感兴趣，他那时

XNX: I know them mainly from catalogues. But I also saw a couple originals in a group exhibition, where he was also represented. As everyone knows, all roads lead to Rome. Whether you know the works from a catalogue or became aware of them while visiting an exhibition is actually irrelevant. What is important above all is that one has come across something interesting. Of course, one can see more details and finesse in an exhibition than in a catalogue.

画了很多艳俗的东西，包括给色情杂志的封面画画。虽然他画这些画的时候已经成名了，还是受到了批评家的猛烈抨击。

HNJ: Apropos Picabia, does surrealism not play any role for you?

批评家尤为气愤的是他画的那些裸体女人，而现在这些画都成了艺术史中的财产，因为人们从中发现了美学上新颖的东

XNX: I haven’t particularly researched it and only have a general knowledge about it, not an intimate one. Whoever poses such questions actually only wants to know if and towards what I orient myself. I am familiar with all the forms of painting which have entered into the history of art. Everything is present for me, from classic to contemporary painting. When you ask me about my orientation, I can’t give you a clear answer to that. Nowadays I am more concerned with the aspect of the perception of the paintings by the viewer. His role interests me more than the references to other artists. For me, neither forms of expression and representation are important, nor is the illustrious game with them. The history of painting contains the perspective of the viewer, which has absolutely nothing to do with that of the painter.

谢：没有，我不与其他画家在具体层面上发生关联。我当然知道绘画史，但也没有让自己过于沉迷进去。我关心的艺术家总是

西。绘画是画家的地盘，但只是其中的一半而已。另一半——从皮卡比亚的例子中我们可以看出——属于观众和批评家。约：你在哪里看到过皮卡比亚的作品，通过什么途径？谢：主要是看画册，也看过一些群展里面有他的原作。当然条条大路通罗马。无论是在画册上还是展览上看到作品，实际上都不重要。重要的是能有机会接触到这些有意思的作品。当然从展览中能比在画册上接触到更多的细节和技巧。约：说到皮卡比亚，超现实主义对你来说无足轻重？谢：我没有研究过超现实主义，只有一些普通的了解，没那么深入。提这样的问题，实际上你想了解的是我创作的导向在哪里。我熟悉在艺术史中出现过的所有绘画形式，从古典绘画到当代绘画，所有形式对我来说都是活的。你要是问我创作的

HNJ: Can you think of an example of this? XNX: Yes, Gerhard Richter. To my knowledge, he is a realistic painter. With him I have the impression that he deliberately chooses images with a cultural background. He is so knowledgeable about the history of painting that he can even estimate how the critics and viewers will react. When I saw a retrospective of him in Beijing I had the feeling he was less of a realist than a European pop artist, sort of a European Andy Warhol. This demonstrates that the viewer can contradict the artist by categorising him differently. That is only one example of many possible ones, to clarify how much the viewer

导向，我很难给你一个清楚的答案。现在我更关心观众对图像的感知，较之与其他艺术家的联系，我更关心观众在绘画中扮演的角色。绘画史包含了观众的角度，这个角度与画家没多少关系。

约：有什么例子吗？

can in a certain way have an influence on the history of art through his judgement. My attitude towards his work has changed over the years. Even though his position is also important it can’t be ignored that he isn’t actually an artist who discovers or has found new forms. HNJ: How do you see yourself as a painter? XNX: Although I am a painter, I can neither sum up why I am one, nor pigeonhole myself within the system.

谢：嗯，比如格哈特·里希特。我觉得他是一个现实主义画家。我的印象是，他有意选择带有文化背景的图像呈现。他对绘画史非常了解，甚至能推测出批评界和观众的反应。在北京看他的回顾展，当时的感觉是，这不像是一个现实主义画家，而是一个欧洲的波普艺术家，欧洲的安迪·沃霍尔。也就是说，观众可以把艺术家进行另一种分类，从而与之形成对立关系。这说明观众可以通过他们的判断在某种程度上影响艺术史。我对里希特作品的态度这些年有了很多改变。如果说他在艺术史上的位置很重要，那么不能忽略的是，他不是那种发现或者找到了新形式的艺术家。

约：你怎么看作为画家的自己？

谢：作为画家，我不能总结自己是画家的原因，也无法把自己归入到系统中去。

约：有人说，在你的画中可以发现政治的关联，刚刚我提到的那几幅画可以作为例证。你怎么看？

谢：我试试用更为基本的方式回答这个问题。你刚才提到的那几幅画是被人强行地与迫害，侵害或者政治暴力等等社会批评层面的因素联系在一起，而类似的艺术批评实际上没什么意义。这些图像可以引发观众的心理反应。这既证明，同时也给出了我为什么在图像中进行夸张表现的原因──图像的内容可以激起观众的反应。要是描述这几幅画的话，我只能说，我在身体上加入了一些伤痕，还营造了一种诡异的气氛来加强这种效果。观众的心理是我探讨的内容，也是作品的另一面。不管怎样，我从没想过去服从观众的趣味。 “图像的说”是个陷阱，画是画，我是我。坐在马桶上的男子算是我的一副自画像，你刚才提到的其他几幅画中的人物，我也是拿自己做模特。这些画的主题是伤害，这不是纯粹的想象或者虚构，也有现实的关联在里面。造型绘画必须要有真实的经历作为背景，我的所有图像都与生活和经历有关。我们刚刚说的那几幅画里表现的是青春期。人在成长的时候与父母的矛盾和纠葛是人人都熟知的事情，双方缺乏互相理解，那种曾经相互给予的情感忽然就消失了。这是每个年轻人生活中的必经阶段。

HNJ: One says your painting also contains a reference to the political. In doing so, one is no doubt thinking of the paintings already cited by me. What do you think about that? XNX: I would like to give a more general answer to that. As soon as we see such pictures, like the ones you talked about, we imagine they have something to do with political persecution. Even with an infringement or with political violence. There is no doubt that I have built a dramatic element into my painting. For ten years, it has been repeatedly discussed on this level by critics. However, that is basically pretty nonsensical. The paintings can provoke a psychological reaction. That is evident, and also a reason why I exaggerate in the pictures. Their contents provoked a reaction in the viewer which, in a certain way, I may have anticipated. But then it was presumed that as an artist my subject is political persecution. If I should speak about the theme of these paintings, then I can only say that I have provided the body with a couple scars. In addition, I created a sinister atmosphere, in order to increase the effect. Above all I occupy myself with the psyche of the viewer and therefore with the other side of the work. By no means did I intend to satisfy the taste of the public. It is about yesterday. The question of what is the subject of the paintings is a trap in which I too can be caught. The painting is a painting, and I am I. What I was aiming for is, first, to leave the viewer in obscurity regarding what he sees, and secondly, the vision created by it in him. The man who is sitting on the toilet is virtually a self-portrait, and I also used myself as a model for the other paintings that you refer to. Thematically they have to do with injury. It is not a pure product of my imagination or fiction, because there are references to reality. Because figurative painting is only possible with real experiences in the background. Therefore, all my paintings have a relation to life and experience. In the paintings which we are speaking about now, the subject is the youth. Everyone knows the problems one has with one’s parents while growing up. There is a lack of mutual understanding, and the feelings that one once had for each other are suddenly lost. That is a necessary phase in the life of a young person. HNJ: Why are you now so interested in the reaction of the viewer? XNX: Because painting always directly has something to do with the viewer, I tried to include the debate with the psyche of the public in my artistic form of expression. I observed and wrote little reports which are more or less readable, like evidence for others. There is no specific goal that underlies my creation. For me, the conversation we are having at the moment is very important, although I have noticed that I can’t provide you with any clear answers. In this relationship I am like Don Juan, who loves more than just one woman.

约：你现在为什么对观众的反应如此感兴趣？

HNJ: What is painting’s relation to reality?

谢：绘画总是和观众联系在一起的，所以我想把观众的心理带入到我的艺术表达中去。我会观察或写点类似小报告的东西，其

XNX: In classical art, one painted angels for example, although these hadn’t actually appeared to the painters. They only existed in their imagination. That too is possible.

他人读这些东西，会发现有点像是证据。我的创作不以什么特别目标为基础。有些问题我无法给你提供明确的答案。就像

HNJ: Which events or experiences led to the new paintings?

花花公子会爱上不同的女人。

XNX: The only experience which left its mark on the series had to do with children’s books. One knows the story of “Snow White and the Seven Dwarves” everywhere in the world. Certain emotions are connected with it. It is an aspect of our collective memory. In reference to my reading as a child, I wanted to transform this story with the help of symbols and writing. In doing so I feel like a bad editor.

约：绘画与现实的关系是什么？

谢：古典主义绘画里，即使画家从没见过天使，他也能画。天使存在于画家的想象中。这也是可能的。

HNJ: Why are you so guarded when it comes to questions about an existential background?

约：有什么经验或者体验促成了这些新画的产生？

XNX: The work itself is already very narcissistic, insofar as the creator considers himself infallible, and therefore I ask myself, why one should speak even more about it. In addition, the creation of art never functions without an audience.

谢：留藏在这个系列里的唯一体验与儿童书籍有关。世界各地都看过“白雪公主和七个小矮人”的故事，这个故事里面蕴藏着人们的情感，是集体记忆的一部分。作品暗示了我小时候阅读这本书的记忆，我想通过符号和文字的帮助再次宣传这个故事。我就像一个蹩脚编辑。约：你为什么不愿意面对有关生存背景的问题？

HNJ: What makes it so difficult to speak about paintings? XNX: The language of painting is already very demonstrative, and in my view the spoken language is only a copy of the painting. Its qualities cannot be adequately grasped with the aid of language, because it has to do with two completely different systems. If a painter speaks too fluently about his paintings, then that isn’t a good sign. Not everything can be explained through painting, but we nevertheless tend to analyse everything, and so it happens that we convey the language of painting into the spoken or also written language, although both languages will never be identical with each other.

谢：作品已经很自恋了，创作者也认为自己完美无缺，那我就要问自己，为什么还要继续谈论它？而且做艺术没有观众是不行的。 Translator: Alexandra Skwara

约：我们对图像的讨论非常艰涩，这是为什么？谢：绘画语言本身已经足够有说服力了，说出的话在我看来无非是复制绘画做的事情。语言无法相应地传达出绘画要说的东西，这是两个不同的系统。要是一个画家能滔滔不绝地讲自己的画，这不是个好信号。不是所有东西都可以在绘画中得到解释，但是我们仍然企图把一切包含进去，这样的后果就是，我们会把绘画语言翻译到口头/书面语言中去，尽管这两种语言从未相同过。

对话及文本翻译：苏伟

谢南星

Xie Nanxing

1970

1970 born in Chongqing, Sichuan Province, China lives and works in Beijing and Chengdu, China

生于重庆生活、工作在中国北京和成都

Solo Exhibitions

个展 2010

“继父有主意!”，麦勒画廊北京－卢森，瑞士卢森 “继父有主意!”，麦勒画廊北京－卢森，中国北京 2008 “大展览——谢南星”，麦勒画廊北京－卢森，中国北京 2005 “谢南星绘画展”，Kunstverein Hamburger Bahnhof，德国汉堡 “谢南星”，麦勒画廊北京－卢森，瑞士卢森

2003 2000 1998 1997

“绘画 1999－2002”，曼彻斯特画廊，英国曼彻斯特 “谢南星”，麦勒画廊北京－卢森，瑞士卢森 “谢南星个人作品展”，Pulitzer 画廊，荷兰阿姆斯特丹 “十滴泪和十个自扮像——都市人文主义组合展”，中国成都

主要联展 2010

2009 2008

2007

2006 2005

2004

“The Richter Scale. About the disappearance of the image – Gerhard Richter and his impact on today’s art”，斯特罗慈当代文化中心，斯特罗慈宫 (Palazzo Strozzi)，意大利佛罗伦萨 “文本：活在当下的中国绘画”, 荔空间，中国北京 “麻将——希客中国当代艺术收藏展”，加利福尼亚大学；伯克利美术馆；太平洋电影文献馆，美国伯克利 “我们的未来——尤伦斯基金会收藏展”，尤伦斯当代艺术中心，中国北京 “城市网亚洲2007”，首尔美术馆，韩国首尔 “附加历史——GDMoA当代艺术收藏展”，广东美术馆，中国广州 “能量——协同”，DE 11 LIJNEN基金会，比利时欧登堡第十二届卡塞尔文献展，德国卡塞尔 “中国欢迎你……”，格拉茨美术馆，奥地利格拉茨 “麻将——希客中国当代艺术收藏展”，现代博物馆，奥地利萨尔茨堡 “从西南出发：中国西南当代艺术展”，广东美术馆，中国广州 “纸上谈兵——名家作品邀请展”，四方当代美术馆，中国南京 “麻将——希客中国当代艺术收藏展”，汉堡美术馆，德国汉堡 “告诉我…抓住我…隐藏的视界——谢南星和王兴伟”，艺术文件仓库，中国北京 “麻将—— 希客中国当代艺术收藏展”，伯尔尼美术馆，瑞士伯尔尼 “形象的基因：中国制造”，麦勒画廊北京－卢森，瑞士卢森 “中国：未来的当代艺术”，Spazio Oberdan，意大利米兰 “中国——当代绘画”，博洛尼亚文化艺术基金会，意大利博洛尼亚 “魔力——变化的艺术”，卢森美术馆，瑞士卢森 “蒙贝利埃——中国1：MC1”，国际中国当代艺术双年展，法国蒙贝利埃 “里里外外——中国当代艺术展”，里昂当代美术馆，法国里昂

2003

2002

2001

2000

1999

“天下”，安特卫浦当代美术馆（MuHKA），比利时安特卫浦 “Printemps de Chine”，CRAC ALSACE，法国阿尔萨斯 “新地带——中国艺术”，Zacheta国家美术馆，波兰华沙 “打开天空”，多伦美术馆，中国上海 “生存的向度”，广东美术馆，中国广州 “移动中的绘画”，巴塞尔美术馆，瑞士巴塞尔第一届广州三年展，广东美术馆，中国广州 “海市蜃楼”，苏州美术馆，中国苏州 “中国当代”，巴西美术博物馆（MAB），巴西圣保罗 “Take Part lI”，麦勒画廊北京－卢森，瑞士卢森 “ABBILD ——当代肖像与描绘”，Landesmuseum Joanneum 美术馆，奥地利格拉茨第一届成都双年展，中国成都 “Take Part l”，麦勒画廊北京－卢森，瑞士卢森上海双年展，上海美术馆，中国上海 “世纪之门——1979－1999中国当代艺术”，成都现代艺术馆，中国成都 “中国朋友”，ACC画廊，包浩斯大学美术馆（与麦勒画廊北京－卢森合作），德国魏玛 “dAPERTutto”第48届威尼斯双年展，意大利威尼斯 “革新”，艺术文件仓库，中国北京 “转世时代”，上河美，中国成都

2010 “STEPFATHER HAS AN IDEA!”, Galerie Urs Meile, BeijingLucerne, Lucerne, Switzerland “STEPFATHER HAS AN IDEA!”, Galerie Urs Meile, BeijingLucerne, Beijing, China 2008 “BIG SHOW – XIE NANXING”, Galerie Urs Meile, BeijingLucerne, Beijing, China 2005 “Xie Nanxing Paintings”, Kunstverein Hamburger Bahnhof, Hamburg, Germany “Xie Nanxing”, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing-Lucerne, Lucerne, Switzerland

2003 “Paintings 1999-2002”, Manchester Art Gallery, Manchester, UK 2000 “Xie Nanxing”, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing-Lucerne, Lucerne, Switzerland 1998 “Xie Nanxing”, Pulitzer Gallery, Amsterdam, The Netherlands 1997 “Ten Drops of Tears & Ten Self-Disguised Portraits – The Association Exhibition of Art Personality in Metropolis”, Xie Nanxing studio, Chengdu, China

Selected Group Exhibitions 2010 “The Richter Scale. About the disappearance of the image – Gerhard Richter and his impact on today’s art”, Centro di Cultura Contemporanea Strozzina (CCCS), Palazzo Strozzi, Florence, Italy 2009 “Textbook: An Exhibition Of Chinese Lively Paintings”, LiSpace, Beijing, China 2008 “Mahjong: Contemporary Chinese Art from the Sigg Collection”, The University of California, Berkeley Art Museum, Pacific Film Archive, Berkeley, USA “Our Future: The Guy & Myriam Ullens Foundation Collection”, Ullens Center for Contemporary Art, Beijing, China 2007 “City-net Asia 2007”, Seoul Museum of Art, Seoul, Korea “The Supplemental History – Contemporary Art from Collection of GDMoA”, Guangdong Museum of Art, Guangzhou, China “Energies – Synergy”, Foundation DE 11 LIJNEN, Oudenburg, Belgium documenta 12, Kassel, Germany “China Welcomes you...”, Kunsthaus Graz, Graz, Austria “Mahjong - Chinesische Gegenwartskunst aus der Sammlung Sigg”, Museum der Moderne, Salzburg, Austria “Starting from the Southwest: Exhibition of Contemporary Art in Southwest China”, Guangdong Museum of Art, Guangzhou, China “Strategy on Paper – Works on Paper Invitational”, Square Gallery of Contemporary Art, Nanjing, China 2006 “Mahjong – Chinesische Gegenwartskunst aus der Sammlung Sigg”, Hamburger Kunsthalle, Hamburg, Germany 2005 “Show Me...Catch Me...Sight Unseen. Xie Nanxing and Wang Xingwei”, China Art Archives and Warehouse (CAAW), Beijing, China “Mahjong - Chinesische Gegenwartskunst aus der Sammlung Sigg”, Kunstmuseum Bern, Berne, Switzerland “PICTORIAL DNA Made in China”, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing-Lucerne, Lucerne, Switzerland “Cina. Prospettive d’Arte Contemporanea / China: As Seen by Contemporary Chinese Artists”, Provincia di Milano, Spazio Oberdan, Milan, Italy “China-Contemporary Painting”, Fondazione Cassa di Risparmio, Palazzo Saraceni, Bologna, Italy

2004 2003 2002 2001 2000 1999

“A Kind of Magic - The Art of Transforming”, Kunstmuseum Luzern, Lucerne, Switzerland 1st Monpellier Biennial of Chinese Contemporary Art, Montpellier, France “The Monk and the Demon – Contemporary Chinese Art”, Musée d’art Contemporain, Lyon, France “All under Heaven”, Museum of Contemporary Art of Antwerp (MuHKA), Antwerp, Belgium “Le Printemps de Chine”, CRAC ALSAC, Altkirch, France “New Zone - Chinese Art”, Zacheta National Gallery of Art, Warsaw, Poland “Open Sky”, Shanghai Duolun Museum of Modern Art, Shanghai, China “Living Conditions”, Guandong Museum of Art, Guangzhou, China “Painting on the Move”, Kunsthalle Basel, Basel, Switzerland 1st Guangzhou Triennale 2002, Guangdong Museum of Art, Guangzhou, China “Mirage”, Suzhou Art Museum, Suzhou, China “Chinese Contemporary Art”, Museu de Arte Brasileira (MAB), São Paulo, Brazil “TAKE PART II”, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing-Lucerne, Lucerne, Switzerland “Abbild – Recent Portraiture and Depiction”, Landesmuseum Joanneum, Graz, Austria 1st Chengdu Biennale, Chengdu Modern Art Museum, Chengdu, China “TAKE PART I”, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing-Lucerne, Lucerne, Switzerland Shanghai Biennale, Shanghai Art Museum, Shanghai, China “The Door of Century. China Contemporary Art 1979 – 1999”, Chengdu Mordern Art Museum, Chengdu, China “Our Chinese Friends”, ACC Galerie and Galerie der Bauhaus-Universität (in collaboration with Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing-Lucerne), Weimar, Germany “d’APERTutto”, La Biennale di Venezia, 48. Esposizione Internationale d’Arte, Venice, Italy “Innovations”, China Art Archives & Warehouse (CAAW), Beijing, China “Time to Revive”, Uprivers Gallery, Chengdu, China

Publisher: Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing-Lucerne Editor: Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing-Lucerne Text: Heinz-Norbert Jocks Translators: Alexandra Skwara (E), Su Wei (C) Copy Editor: Anya Shen (C) Designer: Li Jianhui Photography: Sun Jianwei © 2010 Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing-Lucerne, Xie Nanxing All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, including but not limited to photocopying, transcribing or by any information storage and retrieval system, without written permission from the publisher. ISBN: 978-3-9523342-8-7 Printed in China

麦勒画廊, 北京市朝阳区草场地104号, 邮编 100015, 电话 +86 10 643 333 93 Galerie Urs Meile, No. 104, Caochangdi, Chaoyang District, Beijing, PRC 100015, T +86 10 643 333 93 Galerie Urs Meile, Rosenberghöhe 4, 6004 Lucerne, Switzerland, T +41 41 420 33 18 galerie@galerieursmeile.com, www.galerieursmeile.com

谢南星,《我们之一》2009, 布面油画, 200 x 150 cm

Xie Nanxing, “We No. 1” 2009, oil on canvas, 200 x 150 cm

谢南星,《我们之二》2009, 布面油画, 220 x 150 cm

Xie Nanxing, “We No. 2” 2009, oil on canvas, 220 x 150 cm

谢南星,《我们之三》2009, 布面油画, 210 x 160 cm

Xie Nanxing, “We No. 3” 2009, oil on canvas, 210 x 160 cm

谢南星, 无题 (No. 1), 2009, 布面油画, 220 x 385 cm

Xie Nanxing, untitled (No. 1), 2009, oil on canvas, 220 x 385 cm

谢南星绘画作品——无题 (No. 1), 2009 中出现的汉字英文释译草图

Sketch with English translation of the Chinese characters appearing in Xie Nanxing’s painting untitled (No. 1), 2009

谢南星, 无题 (No. 2), 2009, 布面油画, 220 x 325 cm

Xie Nanxing, untitled (No. 2), 2009, oil on canvas, 220 x 325 cm

谢南星绘画作品——无题 (No. 2), 2009 中出现的汉字英文释译草图

Sketch with English translation of the Chinese characters appearing in Xie Nanxing’s painting untitled (No. 2), 2009

谢南星, 无题 (No. 3), 2010, 布面油画, 220 x 385 cm

Xie Nanxing, untitled (No. 3), 2010, oil on canvas, 220 x 385 cm

谢南星绘画作品——无题 (No. 3), 2010 中出现的汉字英文释译草图

Sketch with English translation of the Chinese characters appearing in Xie Nanxing’s painting untitled (No. 3), 2010