Alter Ego #35 Preview

THAT WILD & WONDROUS

1950s MARVEL SUPER-HERO REVIVAL!

1

1994--2004

5.95

$$

In the the USA USA In

No. 35 April 2004

WITH WITH

All characters TM & ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.

ROMITA • LEE • AYERS • HEATH BURGOS • EVERETT • POWELL LAWRENCE—& THOMAS?

Vol. 3, No. 35 / April 2004

™

Editor

Roy Thomas

Associate Editors Bill Schelly Jim Amash

Design & Layout

Christopher Day

Consulting Editor John Morrow

FCA Editor

P.C. Hamerlinck

Comic Crypt Editor Michael T. Gilbert

Editors Emeritus

Jerry Bails (founder) Ronn Foss, Biljo White, Mike Friedrich

Production Assistant

Eric Nolen-Weathington

Cover Artists John Romita Al Jaffee Tom Ziuko Al Jaffee

And Special Thanks to:

1

Section

Contents

Writer/Editorial: The Pillars of Atlas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 Young Men’s Adventures. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Roy Thomas’ very personal take on the Timely/Marvel Hero Revival.

“I’d Forgotten I’d Ever Done It!”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 Russ Heath doesn’t even remember his one and only “Human Torch” story.

Cover Colorists

Mark Austin Dick Ayers Stephen Barrington Michael Baulderstone Allen & Roz Bellman Lawrence Bowkett Gary Carlson Rich Donnelly William J.B. Dorn III Chris Ecker Ron Frantz Bill Fugate Carl Gafford Dave Gantz Janet Gilbert Michael Gray Jennifer Hamerlinck Peter Hansen Russ Heath

The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes (1953-55)

Al Jaffee Richard Lee Stan Lee Mark Lewis Mile High Comics Scotty Moore Matt Moring Chris Pedrin Warren Reece Ethan Roberts John Romita Dave Siegel Marc Swayze Dann Thomas Jim Vadeboncoeur, Jr. Dr. Michael J. Vassallo Hames Ware Bob Wiener John Wright

1994--2004

NEW ADDRESS FOR TWOMORROWS: 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614 PHONE 919/449-0344 • FAX 919/449-0327

“Captain America Was a Dirty Name!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19 John Romita talks to Jim Amash about the first super-hero he ever drew.

“Fighting Fire with Fire!”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27 Dick Ayers tells still more about his halcyon days on The Human Torch.

“IStanWish Wal-Mart Sold Memory!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 33 Lee recalls—well, just a little bit—the 1950s super-hero revival.

Comic Crypt: Adventures into the Unknown Covers!. . . . . . . 39 Michael T. Gilbert on unpublished 1950s covers of the American Comics Group.

Al Jaffee & Friends Section. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Flip Us! About Our Cover: Some months ago, collector Bob Wiener sent us truly astonishing black-&white photocopies of John Romita’s first 6-page “Captain America” story—done in 1953 for Young Men #24. Even more amazing was that, instead of the splash we’d known for half a century, these copies turned out to sport John’s unused and never-published splash panel, which had been replaced by one by artist Mort Lawrence. There were a couple of other variant panels, as well. Being the greedy cuss he is, Roy T. not only determined to print the splash as a cover—but even managed to persuade his kind-hearted 1960s-70s colleague to draw new images of Human Torch and Sub-Mariner, so this issue’s cover could feature all three of Timely/Atlas’ 1950s heroes, utilizing art done in both 1953 and 2003—exactly fifty years apart! (For the original splash in black-&-white, see p. 20.) Thanks, Bob, for something Roy’s been hoping to see ever since he learned John had drawn his own, unseen splash for YM #24! [1953 art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.; 2003 art ©2004 John Romita; Captain America, Red Skull, Human Torch, & Sub-Mariner TM & ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] Above: We’ve showcased this Romita panel from Young Men #26 before, but since it’s the only one in all 23 of the 1953-55 Atlas super-hero mags that showed the three heroes together in the same scene, it seemed the only choice to start off this issue. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] Alter EgoTM is published monthly by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344.

Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA. Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Single issues: $8 ($10 Canada, $11.00 elsewhere). Twelve-issue subscriptions: $60 US, $120 Canada, $132 elsewhere. All characters are © their respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM of Roy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in Canada.

FIRST PRINTING.

The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes

part one

Young Men’s Adventures

3

A Personal and Idiosyncratic Guide to the Timely/Atlas Hero Revival

by Roy Thomas [NOTE: All issue information is placed in boxes on the pages that follow. In the individual storylistings, the name of the feature is listed first, then the story title (if any), followed by the page count, and name of the artist—e.g., “Captain America: “Back from the Dead!” – 6 pp. – John Romita.”

Additional information is given elsewhere.]

watched beloved super-heroes disappear one by one.

It had been three years since the demise of All-Star; only Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and a few backups still endured at my favorite company, National/DC. Quality had just John Romita’s three-panel sequence featuring Sub-Mariner, Human Torch, and Captain America, Plastic Man and from Young Men #26, reproduced from photocopies of the original art—and clearly using versions Blackhawk left; I of Namor and Torch in YM #24 as reference. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] didn’t yet know that the last issue of Doll Man had gone on sale two months earlier. Nor did I suspect that the final comics starring Captain Marvel and his Fawcett family were already on the presses.

Osterloh’s Book Store was a Mecca for me as a youngster in the late Over at the company I always thought of as “Marvel Comics,” 1940s and early 1950s. When my parents went shopping on Saturday because those words sometimes appeared on its covers in the late ’40s, I nights in Cape Girardeau, Missouri, ten miles from our home in the had read the exploits of the Torch, Cap, and Namor in their solo mags county seat of Jackson, I’d seize the chance to hit the Woolworth and and in Marvel Mystery Comics from 1945 or ’46 till 1949, when all had Newberry 5¢-and-10¢ stores in search of comic books. been abruptly discontinued.

And then there was Osterloh’s.

But now, suddenly—the three Marvel heroes were back!

Mostly, I bought real books in that wondrous emporium on the next “The HUMAN TORCH Returns,” screamed the topline above that block down from the five-and-dimes: books about animals (both fact comic’s odd title—Young Men. I had no idea which young men had and fiction), Oz, Grossett and Dunlap’s Tarzan, and (God help me) appeared in its preceding 23 issues, nor did I care. I paid my thin dime Bomba the Jungle Boy… as well as Pogo paperbacks and the proud but and made off with my booty into the night, before it could fade before lonely single volume of Jack Kent’s King Aroo. But through at least the my eyes like a mirage. mid-’50s, Osterloh’s carried comics, too.

A smaller selection than Woolworth and Newberry, yet I can vividly recall buying several treasures there, such as 1950’s AllStar Comics #55 with its stark cover of Hawkman and Green Lantern attacking a Young Men #24 space ship against the blackness of space…

(Dec. 1953)

A Frankly Self-indulgent Preface

Back from the Dead!

And Young Men #24.

In the autumn 1953 moment when, at age twelve, I beheld on Osterloh’s racks (which started at floor level) that Atlasglobed cover with its powerful image of The Human Torch hurling fireballs that burn a hole in a building while onlookers gape—with small images of Captain America, Bucky, and “Submariner” [sic] at the bottom, each mentioned twice, for good measure—hope flared up in me. The kind of hope that had been gradually ebbing since the late 1940s, as I had slowly

Cover: Carl Burgos Human Torch: “The Return of… The Human Torch” – 9 pp. – Russ Heath (Torch figure on splash by Carl Burgos) Captain America: “Back from the Dead!” – 6 pp. – John Romita (splash page by Mort Lawrence) Sub-Mariner – 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed)

[©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

REPRINTING: The cover and all three stories were reprinted in Marvel Super-Heroes #20 (May 1969)—and in the 1997 trade paperback The Golden Age of Marvel [Vol. 1]. In the latter, the “Torch” story reproduced overly dark, because of last-minute production problems.

4

A Guide to the Timely/Atlas Hero Revival

Even as a kid, I’d realized Marvel’s stories weren’t generally as good as those of DC, Fawcett, and Quality. It was the three heroes I liked.

Most of their stories looked and read pretty much alike to me.

But Young Men #24, I realized at once, was different… better… both in terms of art and story! The former, in particular, struck me as uniformly good, if not downright superb… a judgment I’ve seen no reason to alter in the ensuing half-century.

The entire cover and the splash-panel Torch figure (by Carl Burgos, I’d soon learn) were splendid re-creations of the flaming super-hero I’d known. But I noted right away that he looked quite different in the remaining eight-plus pages of his story. Their artist (Russ Heath, I’d learn, doing his one and only “Torch” tale ever) made him actually look like a man on fire, burning somehow without burning up—and I liked that approach, too. At age twelve I didn’t ponder the reasons for the dichotomy of styles within the same issue, story, and even panel. That would come later.

The “Torch” splash continued from the cover scene, as he flew through the molten hole he’d burned to attack several armed thugs. His origin was retold in a two-panel sequence that had him literally “born in a test tube,” a simplified version the android origin that I’d read retold in the final issue of Marvel Mystery Comics (#92, June 1949). According to YM #24, the Torch had incinerated Adolf Hitler in 1945 (a nice touch I’d learn was a new addition—at the time, I didn’t even know Hitler’s corpse had been burned), and he had picked up a fiery young sidekick in 1949 (though I knew for a fact that Toro had been around by the mid’40s.)

I was impressed at how the story accounted believably for the pair’s four-year absence. They’d been captured by a criminal syndicate using the flame-dousing Solution X-R obtained from “a country behind the

Iron Curtain”—and we all knew which one that was, didn’t we, boys and girls? The Torch had been buried beneath the Nevada desert until freed by an atomic test—while Toro had been turned over to the Communists. The Torch’s 1940s pal Police Chief Wilson informed him of “mysterious streaks of fire our G.I.’s in Korea have been seeing,” months after the truce ended the war there, so the Torch streaked to Asia and freed the brainwashed Toro from the Reds’ insidious spell. The two of them then rescued Wilson’s daughter Mary from a Commie spy, and they were back in business!

The “Captain America” story was a shorter and lesser effort, though well-drawn. Years later I’d learn that, except for the splash panel (drawn

by Mort Lawrence—see p. 20), the art was by John Romita, whose name I already knew from other Marvel/Atlas comics. I’d even encountered The Red Skull once, in 1949, when Cap fought him in hell itself. In 1953 I learned that, “in the early days of the war” (clearly World War II, since Nazis are mentioned), a “certain weakling” had been changed by a serum into a perfect physical specimen—Captain America. The writer of this script, too, had done his homework; indeed, some of the dialogue in the origin flashback is lifted directly from Captain America #1, not that I knew that then. Steve Rogers, the suburban New York high school teacher who relates the above origin to his class at the Lee School (ahem!), was once Captain America; his ward (and student) Bucky had been Cap’s young ally. Steve insists: “Captain America’s work is done!

There’s no need for his return!”

He’s wrong, of course. That very day, The Red Skull takes hostages at the U.N. and demands the Secretary-General be turned over to him.

Precisely how that would’ve helped him launch “a crime wave like the world’s never seen before—working with the Reds in murder… sabotage” is not made clear, let alone how the ultimate Nazi had cosied up to the Commies. Needless to say, Cap and Bucky return, the Skull and his cohorts are crushed, and Cap decides he’s “back to stay.” I believed him.

Russ Heath (and an unknown writer) reshaping Torch’s and Toro’s origins—with a splash-panel Torch figure by the heroes’ creator, Carl Burgos. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

The issue’s third tale, “Sub-Mariner,” was equally a revelation. I couldn’t for the life of me read the artist’s weird signature (I finally decided it was “Bill Enereh”—and so he remained, in my mind, for eight years, until a fellow English teacher informed me that last name was actually “Everett,” and that he’d created the hero); but the art and story elated me.

When freighters are sunk at sea and Red treachery suspected, a good-looking blonde named Betty Dean contacts her old buddy Prince Namor, the SubMariner. Again things are brought up to date, recounting his hybrid birth in a long caption, telling how he hated humans till she convinced him to help the U.S. during WWII and that “a few years ago [he] went back to his home at the South Pole to rebuild his lost

Young Men’s Adventures

5

Cap vs. Red Skull, and the splash of the “Sub-Mariner” story. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

empire.” A masterful page-plus of panels that told me more about the life and times of Namor than I’d learned in several years of reading SubMariner in the late ’40s! [See p. 35.]

The rest of the story is a bit of a letdown, with the villains turning out to be not Reds but Venusian robots out to conquer Earth. But I was impressed by Namor’s wearing a suit and tie in several panels; once he and Betty even wear striped nautical shirts (identical except for her plunging neckline). I’d never before seen a super-hero appear in public in “civvies.”

The one sour note was that Namor’s ankles no longer sported tiny wings as in the 1940s. He could no longer fly in the mid-’40s comics I’d read, but I’d always figured the wings helped him swim faster. Besides, they were as much a part of his unique “look” as that triangular head and those marvelous pointy ears and arching eyebrows—and those new, blue-scaled trunks, so much more visual than the lackluster black-withyellow-stripes jobs he’d worn in the ’40s!

Young Men #24 was the highlight of the year 1953 to this young comics fan, and I was only disappointed that I’d have to wait two whole months to read more about The Human Torch, Captain America, and Sub-Mariner.

Explosion in Four Colors Eight weeks later, you’d better believe I was on hand when Young Men #25 came on sale. For reasons still unknown, someone had decided The Human Torch was the most saleable of the three revived heroes, even though, as I’d learn years later, Captain America had been easily Timely’s best-selling mag through much of the 1940s.

This time, the “Torch” story was drawn (and perhaps also written?) wholly by the cover artist. This was the classic Torch, with vertical lines inside his flaming form making him look hotter than Toro’s emptier outline—and the yellow auras around their blazing bodies when they flew were a definite improvement on late-1940s depictions. In the story, old men were given youth in exchange for working for a criminal gang... not knowing that, after a month, they’d crumble into dust. I must’ve liked that plot; forty years later I, er, adapted it for an issue of Marvel’s The Secret Defenders.

Young Men #25 (Feb. 1954) Cover: Carl Burgos Human Torch: “The Return of… The Human Torch” – 8 pp. – Carl Burgos Captain America: “Top Secret!” – 7 pp. – John Romita (signed) Sub-Mariner: 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) REPRINTING: The “Torch” story was reprinted in Marvel Super-Heroes #14 (May 1968), “Captain America” in MSH #13 (March 1968), and “SubMariner” in Giant-Size Defenders #2 (Oct. 1974).

The entire issue, including cover, was reprinted in a simulated edition in 1994.

See the Stan Lee interview for splashes from YM# 25. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“Captain America” was signed this time—by John Romita. Even then I recognized the influence of Milt Caniff, whose Terry and the Pirates I’d admired in Harvey’s comic book reprints. I didn’t fully realize that John was striving (with considerable success) to amalgamate the styles of Caniff and Jack Kirby, who I’d learn was one of Cap’s creators; but I liked the way Cap seemed to leap out of some panels, his boots overlapping the borders. And I loved that final, oft-reprinted panel in which Cap, Bucky, and a scientist stand approvingly watching a nuclear explosion on the desert: “A glorious sight,” says Cap, “when it’s on our side in the struggle for world peace!” It didn’t occur to me—or to John or the writer, apparently—that at that distance all three would have been killed instantly.

The “Sub-Mariner” story by “Bill Enereh” is a

The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes

part three

19

“Captain America Was A Dirty Name!”

JOHN ROMITA on the First Super-Hero Feature He Ever Drew–––“Captain America” Interview Conducted & Transcribed by Jim Amash [INTERVIEWER’S NOTE: Roy Thomas interviewed his longtime Bullpen colleague John Romita pretty thoroughly three years ago in A/E V3#9; so, since he’s using John’s very first but neverbefore-published 1953 “Captain America” splash as (Above:) A somewhat fuzzy photo showing (l. to r.) Jazzy Johnny this issue’s cover, I Romita, Rascally Roy Thomas, and Smilin’ Stan Lee at the 2000 leaped at the opporMegaCon in Orlando, Florida, where they competed with a trio tunity to ask John a of youngish artists on a trivia panel to raise money for charity. few questions about Marvel’s 1960s brain trust nosed out the young punks—just barely.

Cap’s 1950s revival.

Photo by Dann Thomas.

This interview is (Right:) John drew Captain America many times after 1954—including meant to this commercial illo of the Star-Spangled Avenger hitting what just complement the has to be a home run! [Art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] earlier one, but we also veered off into other areas. In addition, I wanted the chance to JA: Were you were supposed to be the artist of “Captain America” publicly thank John for all the help he gave me when I was trying to from the beginning? break into comics. He was always there when I needed advice. The ROMITA: No. Mort Lawrence started the story, and either he or Stan time I remember most occurred when I came up to the Marvel offices was disappointed by the results. I happened to be in the office, and Stan from North Carolina, looking for a break. I knocked on his door, and said, “How would you like to be the artist on ‘Captain America’?” I he said he didn’t have time to talk right then, because he only had an almost jumped out of my skin, because I was a Jack Kirby freak. Stan hour to finish a cover rough. He asked if I was having any luck—I showed me the finished page, and I even think a cover was done. wasn’t—and he suddenly realized I didn’t live in town. “You came from North Carolina, didn’t you?” I said I did, so he pushed aside JA: Could that have been the cover to Captain America #76, where the rough and said, “Okay. I’ll give you twenty minutes.” He Cap has that cartoony smile on his face? proceeded to go over my samples, pointing out my weaknesses, saying, “You’re ready to go pro, but here’s a few things you still need to work ROMITA: It was either that or the cover to Young Men #24. Lawrence on.” Armed with that advice, I went home, did a brand new didn’t do any covers after the Captain America title started. portfolio, and immediately broke into Marvel Comics as an inker. For JA: So Mort Lawrence had already done a splash of his own? that kindness when he really couldn’t spare the time—and for all the other times, too—I’ll always be grateful to John Romita. —Jim.] ROMITA: I think so. Far as I recall, Stan took the two bottom panels from my first page and put them under the Lawrence splash. But it never occurred to me to ask for my [unused] original splash back. I was too JIM AMASH: Roy covered most of the bases in regard to your comic young and innocent to even think about it. I’ve made so many mistakes book career [in A/E #9], but I’d like to fill in a couple of areas. Stan of omission and gave away so many wonderful things over the years that didn’t use your original “Captain America” splash for Young Men I should have kept. #24.

JOHN ROMITA: That was an interesting thing. At the beginning of my Timely career, I used to go in and drop stuff off. I didn’t see the finished product until the book came out. I wasn’t hurt by the change, but was very disappointed and felt I was still an amateur, because Stan had replaced my splash with someone else’s. But, as I recently told Roy, when I saw my splash for that story again after all these years, I realized Stan did the right thing in not using it. It was pretty hokey, and Captain America looked liked he was 12 feet tall. Stan was right, and I should have known he was right all along. The published splash wasn’t inspiring, but it was certainly better than mine.

Frankly, in the 1950s, I was sure comics were only going to last another year or so. I even threw out my sketches back then, so you can’t go by what I thought. I picked up a photostat of a George Tuska page, which he inked with a number five brush. I pinned it to my drawing table and used it for inspiration for about a year. I used a number 5 brush and was doing all this fine detail work with a fat brush and a sharp point, and as long as I wasn’t tired, the lines came out just fine. As soon as I got tired, the lines came out ugly and thick.

JA: What made you think that comics weren’t going to last?

20

John Romita

(Left:) The balloon-less black-&-white copy of the full (and signed) John Romita “Captain America” splash page from Young Men #24, courtesy of Bob Wiener. The sound effects in panels 2-3 must’ve been done by John. A few of the thinner inklines, e.g., some of the scaling on Cap’s shirt in panel 3, are nearly lost on these proofs. Of this long-lost 1953 splash, John wrote in a 2003 e-mail, after seeing it for the first time in exactly fifty years: “I didn’t recall how silly looking that first splash was… Stan helped my career by not using it… and that Red Skull was pathetic… I’m not sure I should let you print it (just kidding… at my stage in life it’s historic… or hysterical).” Hey, don’t be so hard on yourself, John!

(Right:) The published version, with the Mort Lawrence splash panel, repro’d from b&w proofs from a sadly forgotten source to whom we owe a free copy of this issue! But judging by Cap’s dialogue in panel 2, it seems that a Red Skull balloon (“Let ’em have it!” or some such) was dropped somewhere along the line. [© Marvel Characters, Inc.]

ROMITA: I was under that impression when I started in 1949, ghostpenciling for Les Zakarin, who was working for Timely and other places. [NOTE: See Zakarin interview in A/E #27. —Jim.] I figured I’d just do these stories to make a few extra bucks. I had no plans to stay in comics. Everyone I spoke to thought we were treading water. Even Stan said he was waiting for comics to get so small that he couldn’t make a living anymore, so that he could write novels and screenplays.

Everybody I knew felt they were in it on a temporary basis, including Davey Berg, who was doing mystery stories and then war stories for Timely. He hadn’t started at Mad yet.

As people like Dave, Jack Abel, and myself sat in the Timely waiting room for scripts or art approval, we would talk. We all had the feeling that comics were a dying industry and wondered what we’d do next.

People forget that, at that time, there would be one or two good years and then a bad year, where everyone was struggling for work. And then there’d be another good year, and then maybe two bad years—bad enough that many of the guys left comics and went into technical art or advertising.

Gene Colan was working full-time in the Timely bullpen in 1948, and then he was laid off. He said it was the most traumatic thing that had ever happened to him. You know, when you’re 19 or 20 and making a steady buck, and then you’re told that the company’s closing down next

week, you feel terrible. So Gene had the bad break then, and once again in 1957, when Timely temporarily stopped publishing. You can imagine how those things made him feel.

Timely publisher Martin Goodman used to close shop at the drop of a hat. If expenses got too high, he’d say “the hell with it,” and close shop. Nobody had any protection because there were no pensions, no severance pay or insurance plans, or savings plans. Everyone who worked in comics were flying by the seat of their pants.

I remember the atmosphere in the late ’40s and early ’50s—especially the mid-’50s, when Congress started to come down on comics. We were all watching the hearings—they made us look like butchers. You’d think we were killing children in every panel. I used to tell my wife Virginia, “I’ll only do comics for a while, and as soon as it closes down, I’ll get a job in New York, in a studio.” Nobody I knew said, “I’m going to be in comics for the rest of my life.” We all figured we’d have to get nine-tofive jobs at some point. It was a very negative period.

JA: Well, if it hadn’t been for Les Zakarin, you wouldn’t have gotten into comics in the first place, would you?

ROMITA: Probably not, because I wanted to be a painter and an illustrator. I was doing Coca-Cola illustrations for soda fountains at a lithography house. I was making a big $25 a week, but I did freelance pencils

“Captain America Was A Dirty Name!”

I was always late on my Spider-Man deadlines, and the last thing I wanted to do was to lose time, so I wouldn’t be surprised that many guys touched up my artwork back in the 1950s.

for Les and tripled my salary. That’s why I even decided to go into comics.

Besides Timely, we also worked for a company named Trojan Comics. The art director was a little guy who wore a cowboy hat. I swear, working with him was like entering the Twilight Zone. I used to bring my pencils in and Lester used to ink them. In retrospect, I realize I was doing bondage covers. I only did three or four covers for them and Les inked them all. I also worked for Sol Cohen at Avon, but I don’t think Les inked any of my stories there.

Let me tell you something: the first time I met Jack Kirby in the Marvel offices, he was touching up a Steve Ditko cover—correcting the pencils.

That was not the first time. Even in the mid-’50s, I used to correct stuff all the time. When my artwork was in there, people like Carl Burgos touched up my work mercilessly, and I corrected others’ work when Stan asked me to. It was Stan’s normal procedure.

JA: Getting back to that first ”Captain America” story: I compared the line work of the Xeroxes that Roy sent me of the other pages of the story to what was published, and I noticed some differences in line weights and detail.

ROMITA: Stan must have had someone touch those pages up. He was notorious for that.

JA: The inking on this first story looks a little different than your other “Cap” inks, even though your inks still show through. It always seemed to me that maybe Joe Maneely “beefed up” your inks.

21

At Jim Amash’s cajoling, John R. sent us cover proofs he had of two of the covers he penciled for Trojan Comics. We already printed that of Crime Smashers #7 back in A/E #27, in conjunction with our interview with the inker, the late Les Zakarin, but here’s the one for Western Crime Busters #7 (Oct. 1951). John refers to these as “’cave-style drawings.” [©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

ROMITA: I wouldn’t be surprised, because Joe was close enough in the office to help out in emergencies. Joe was the guy in the late ’40s and through most of the ’50s who did what I did for Stan in the ’60s and ’70s, which was—whenever somebody’s artwork came in that wasn’t quite what Stan wanted, he’d bring it in to me to do touch-ups. Frankly, I didn’t want to do that stuff.

Roy always kids me about not inking the circular stripes in Captain America’s shield. I don’t know where I got the nerve to do that, but I did draw the first circle with the star in it. I indicated in pencil where the circled lines should go, so the colorist would have a guideline. I don’t know if Stan told me to do that, or if I decided to do it on my own. The colorists used to mutilate the job, and the colors went all over the shield. It shows you how we were flying by the seat of our pants.

JA: The cover of Captain America #76, that we mentioned before, is a strange one. There seem to be two, maybe three different artists working on that cover. [See p. 7 for this cover.]

ROMITA: I didn’t work on that cover. I think Carl Burgos did most of it, or at least penciled it.

JA: I think so, too, but the Captain America figure is drawn by a totally different artist, possibly Mort Lawrence.

ROMITA: Lawrence may have penciled it and Stan decided to change the details. Carl Burgos was a staffer and was very involved with the covers. He used to lay out the covers. He wasn’t exactly an editor, but he was in charge of the covers. Stan was involved, but he didn’t have enough time to do all that he wanted to do in that regard.

JA: On those black-&-white proofs of your “Cap” story in Young

Editor (and reputed writer) Stan Lee seems to have had John re-draw (and vertically extend) the first panel on page 3, in order to emphasize the new, bulkier Steve Rogers—and incidentally do away with those boxer shorts!—with the result that Bucky and two hoodlums were eliminated from panel 3 below it. Thanks to Bob Wiener for the previously unpublished b&w proofs. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes

part four

“Fighting Fire With Fire”

27

DICK AYERS Tells Still More about His Halcyon Days on The Human Torch Interview Conducted by Roy Thomas

Transcribed by Brian K. Morris

[INTRO: Only a few months ago, in our Christmas issue (#31), we ran an extended interview with veteran illustrator Dick Ayers.

However, we had no intention of putting together this special section without talking again to this artist who had drawn well over a dozen “Human Torch” stories for that revival.

We’ve tried as much as possible to avoid duplication of what was said and shown in A/E #31, which we suggest you compare with what follows. In order to be able to discuss all his 1954 stories, I made photocopies of all of them, and of one or two other items besides, and mailed them to him a few days before I phoned him on Jan. 15, 2004. Dick refers to these photocopies at the beginning of the interview. —Roy.] DICK AYERS: I appreciated seeing all that art, because I don’t have all the issues, and what I do have is packed away, and it’s too much work to get to it.

RT: That’s why, in the 1960s, I had my run of the revival issues bound in three volumes, so I could set them on a bookshelf and not have them packed away in boxes. I thought the photocopies might refresh your memory, better than our just talking about them, with me mentioning details you couldn’t check for yourself.

AYERS: I can see, like we discussed before, where Carl Burgos Torch and Toro figures cover up the ones I drew in my first issue [Human Torch #36]. For some of the splash panels, he did the whole thing— either he or Sol Brodsky or somebody. And I remember that, at the time, it would upset me very much. For instance, the one where the bulldozer is trying to run down the Torch… and the one with the giant vampire bat on it, too.

RT: Interesting—’cause those two are in Human Torch #37, your second issue. You’re saying someone else did those entire splash panels? Burgos?

AYERS: Whoever. Stan would never say anything. But when he assigned me to the Torch, he sent me a photocopy of Russ Heath’s story and said, “This is the way we want the Torch to look.”

RT: Strange. Stan seems to have wanted you to do the Russ Heath version—yet only the single story by Heath ever had the Torch look that way. Even your later version looked more like the Burgos Torch than the Heath version. A Burgos Torch figure is even pasted over Russ’ Torch on his splash page. Stan must’ve changed his mind early—or else maybe publisher Martin Goodman didn’t like it and said, “Let’s get back to the way he was.” But we’ll never probably know.

Dick Ayers at an exhibit of comic art (including his own) at the Cartoon Museum in Rye, New York, circa 1985—and the splash of the lead story from Human Torch #36 (seen on the wall behind him), repro’d from the original art, courtesy of Ethan Roberts, who has perhaps the largest collection of Ayers art on the planet. Dick says that “I did everything on that page except Toro. That was a paste-up probably done by Carl Burgos.” Photo courtesy of Darlin’ Dick. [Art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

AYERS: By the time I got to the stories set in Korea, I was really drawing in the action. In fact, I can see what was coming in Sgt. Fury later. That was what Stan liked—that action. I had them flaming into the jet planes, helping the planes fly [in HT #38]. I loved that kind of stuff.

RT: I always liked the scene where the Chinese Communist soldier is trying to bayonet the Torch from the back, and first his bayonet and then his rifle vanish into the Torch, until the soldier himself is swallowed up totally in the fire. I guess that’s the way it was written.

AYERS: Oh, yes, pretty much, and I’d just exaggerate what was written.

RT: Well, to go through the stories more or less in order—I presume you were familiar with the Torch and the other heroes from the

28

Dick Ayers

1940s, at least to some extent?

AYERS: [laughs] I never even heard of them!

Like I said in the other interview, I took my work in to Popular Science and the editor told me, “Oh, you should be working for Simon and Kirby.” And I said, “Who are they?” That was in 1946, I think. I had friends that had read those comics, but my favorites were the ones that reprinted newspaper strips, like Tip Top. RT: You said Stan told you Torch was canceled because of groups during the Wertham years complaining about the Torch. Stan, of course, doesn’t remember that, but that doesn’t mean too much. [mutual laughter] John Romita thinks there might have been complaints that kids might set themselves on fire. Did you ever hear that complaint?

AYERS: No, but I do know that, when I was doing Ghost Rider, we had one story that involved Russian roulette. [Magazine Enterprises publisher] Vin Sullivan told me, “Oh, no, we can’t do that!” He also told me, “Never is the sheriff or the police to be the bad guys.” This is even before the Comics Code. There was some boy who supposedly played like he was Superman and

The splash panels of these two stories from Dick’s second issue, Human Torch #37, were apparently drawn by another artist—and the Torches’ figures at lower right on “Vampire Tale!” seem definitely the work of Torch creator and Timely staffer Carl Burgos. The rest of the art on those pages, and in the remainder of the stories, is by Ayers. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

jumped out a window. And that scared the hell out of us. I mean, the imagination goes to work, and who knows if some kid might have read The Human Torch and set himself on fire?

RT: Right. I did send you one story that definitely wasn’t yours. It was probably drawn right before you started on Human Torch, because it’s from Captain America #76. I’m curious if you had any idea who might’ve drawn it. It looks a little like Burgos, but it could have been Sol Brodsky or someone else.

AYERS: It might have been Sol. RT: It’s either Burgos or imitation Burgos, but Sol drew a lot like that, too, and so did a few other people. The other “Torch” stories that aren’t clearly by Burgos are by you. I know you still have your record book from that period. Were the stories published in roughly the order you drew them?

AYERS: Well, we can check. I have them numbered. For instance, that story “The Un-Human” that wasn’t published till years later—in my book it’s “Human Torch #19,” and the [unpublished] story called “Voodoo” was #20; it was the last. I only did twenty.

RT: That’s interesting, because I’ve got you down as doing seventeen. In which case, if “Voodoo” and “The Un-Human” were #19 and #20, I wonder what was #18. Do you know?

AYERS: Wait a minute. I’ll look it up. [pause] Usually I have four or five “Torch” stories listed together because they came that way, but here, all of a sudden, I was getting them spread apart. Ah, here’s #18— “Fighting Fire with Fire.” Maybe that one didn’t come out.

RT: No, it came out as a backup in Captain America or SubCall Ye Ed bloodthirsty, but both as kid and adult, he digs the four-panel Ayers-drawn sequence at top of this page from Human Torch #38. Note, by the way, that in the final panel (as throughout the issue) the Torch is suddenly wearing (yellow) boots—and his wrist-trimming has been enlarged, as well. This page is a great example of the action feel Dick was getting into the “Torch” strip—just before Timely pulled the plug. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes

part five

33

“I Wish Wal-Mart Sold Memory!”

STAN LEE Remembers–––Well, Just a Little Bit–––the 1950s Revival

Interview Conducted by Roy Thomas

[NOTE: In January 2004 my longtime boss and mentor Stan Lee kindly agreed to talk to me on the phone about the revival, although he warned me in advance—as if I needed warning at this stage—that he had a notoriously poor memory for things that had happened so many years ago, and of which he had kept no written records. Later, he generously responded to one or two additional points by e-mail; those responses have been edited into this piece. —Roy.]

Transcribed by Brian K. Morris

’40s—and in those days [publisher] Martin Goodman made all those decisions. All that would have happened would have been that he’d have said to me, “Stan, bring back the Torch.” And half of the times I didn’t know why. Probably more than half of the times, I had no idea why he did it. We were just like a production house in those days. He said, “Put out some books,” and I’d put out the books.

RT: One reason I loved that revival at age 12-13, and remain enthusiastic about it to Smilin’ Stan’s never been above a little humor at this day, is that it was handled logically, and his own expense, as on the occasion this photo of RT: I just have a few questions, since you said with acknowledgement and respect for what himself was taken at the 1995 Stan Lee Roast held you wouldn’t remember anything. Not that I had come before. It was explained in Young at the Chicago Comicon. We printed the whole blame you, after fifty years and all the comics Men #24 what each of the principals had been affair in Alter Ego V3#1. Here, we’ve surrounded you’ve edited. Still—do you recall at all why up to since 1949—the Torch buried underhim with splashes by Carl Burgos, John Romita, it was that, four years after the demise of The ground till an A-bomb blast freed him, Steve and Bill Everett, taken from a 1994 premium reprint Human Torch, Captain America, and SubRogers teaching high school, Namor going of Young Men #25, the second “Atlas hero revival” Mariner, all of a sudden in ’53 it was decided back to the South Pole. It was treated as if, issue. [Art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] to bring them back? I’ve always assumed it hey, these guys vanished four years ago, this was because of the success of the Superman TV show. is what happened to them, and now they’re back! There had to be some central hand that dictated how the heroes (and even The Red LEE: Gee, I didn’t even know they had been away. I didn’t know they Skull) were brought back, whether it was you or someone working were brought back; I don’t remember that at all. editorially under you.

RT: I can see where you wouldn’t, because, after all, those heroes had LEE: Well, if I were editor at the time, I must have had something to do been going for nearly a decade while you were editor—and by ’53 with the way those characters were brought back, although I don’t they’d been gone for only four. remember. However, as I said, the one who would have decided to bring them back would’ve been Martin Goodman.

LEE: But I can tell you this: you’re talking about the early ’50s, late

34

Stan Lee RT: And, of course, Bill Everett was there. So you had two of the heroes’ three creators there, working for you. So you just put Bill on that.

LEE: You know, that’s great. I don’t really remember working directly with Bill and Carl. And I’m trying to think, is it just that I’ve forgotten, or was there anybody else there who was the editor? I mean, I was the editor at the time. Was there—?

RT: Of course, at various times, artists or writers have said that they dealt with different people who were sort-of editors under you. The same way, say, Gary Friedrich or I would’ve been in the late 1960s. For example, Don Rico and Al Sulman— LEE: Right, they were under me—and Ernie Hart— RT: And supposedly, around this time, Carl Burgos was considered

by Romita and others to be sort-of an unofficial cover editor.

LEE: He may have been, he may have been.

RT: So you probably didn’t have many dealings with these books.

Did you proofread all the stories at that time, all those several comics a week that were coming out?

LEE: I don’t know. I honest-to-God don’t know. I know I glanced at Panels from the Russ Heath-drawn “Human Torch” tale from Young Men #24.

A pity that, in the otherwise excellent 1997 trade paperback The Golden Age of Marvel [Vol. 1], this story alone had to be reproduced at the last minute from a copy of the original comic, so that one of the best-looking “Torch” adventures ever printed turned out way too dark. Does Russ’ Torch look like he’s on fire, or what!? [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

RT: One especially interesting thing to me is—although the cover of the comic that brought all three heroes back, Young Men #24, was by Carl Burgos, the interior “Torch” story was drawn—and it was the only one drawn—by Russ Heath, and in a much more realistic style, with a new look to the Torch’s flames. Do you remember that?

LEE: No, I didn’t remember Russ Heath had ever drawn it.

RT: Actually, neither did he, until we showed it to him. [chuckles] Strangely, though it was a beautifully-drawn nine-page story, on its splash what I realized later is a Torch figure by Carl Burgos has been pasted over one of Russ’. So I guess you, or somebody, maybe Martin Goodman, decided they didn’t like that new version of the Torch.

LEE: That probably would have been me. But the only thing I can think of, and this is a wild guess, is that Carl might have been sick that month and I needed another artist to do that first story.

RT: Maybe so, because Burgos did draw the remaining four “Torch” stories in Young Men, and the covers of the three Human Torch issues.

LEE: So often, that would happen. There’d be a different artist because the normal artist would have been ill, or would have been on vacation, or on jury duty, or who knows—because I never really wanted to switch artists once there was a guy doing something, and I wanted to keep him on it.

RT: Once Burgos started doing the stories, he did the next several until the Torch got his own book for three issues. And then, I guess, maybe Burgos was too busy, doing lots of covers, etc., because you got Dick Ayers to draw the actual Torch title. That was Dick’s first superhero work for Timely. He drew all three 1954 issues of Human Torch, although you had Burgos Torch figures pasted over Dick’s throughout the first one. Do you remember anything about that? Probably not.

LEE: No.

Carl Burgos turned out some of the best work of his career on “The Human Torch” this time around, as in this page from Young Men #26, repro’d from black-&-white photocopies of the original art. Other pages from this first “Vulture” story have been reprinted in previous issues of Alter Ego. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

AL JAFFEE GOES MAD FOR MARVEL!

1

1994--2004

5.95

$

In the USA

No. 35

Art ©2004 Al Jaffee; characters TM & ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.

April 2004

PLUS: PLUS:

Vol. 3, No. 35 / April 2004

™

Editor

Roy Thomas

Associate Editors Bill Schelly Jim Amash

Design & Layout

Christopher Day

Consulting Editor John Morrow

FCA Editor

P.C. Hamerlinck

Comic Crypt Editor Michael T. Gilbert

Editors Emeritus

Jerry Bails (founder) Ronn Foss, Biljo White, Mike Friedrich

Production Assistant

Eric Nolen-Weathington

Cover Artists

AL JAFFEE & FRIENDS Section

Al Jaffee John Romita

Contents

Cover Colorists Al Jaffee Tom Ziuko

And Special Thanks to: Mark Austin Dick Ayers Stephen Barrington Michael Baulderstone Allen & Roz Bellman Lawrence Bowkett Gary Carlson Rich Donnelly William J.B. Dorn III Chris Ecker Ron Frantz Bill Fugate Carl Gafford Dave Gantz Janet Gilbert Michael Gray Jennifer Hamerlinck Peter Hansen Russ Heath

1

Al Jaffee Richard Lee Stan Lee Mark Lewis Mile High Comics Scotty Moore Matt Moring Chris Pedrin Warren Reece Ethan Roberts John Romita Dave Siegel Marc Swayze Dann Thomas Jim Vadeboncoeur, Jr. Dr. Michael J. Vassallo Hames Ware Bob Wiener John Wright

1994--2004

NEW ADDRESS FOR TWOMORROWS: 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614 PHONE 919/449-0344 • FAX 919/449-0327

“It Was a Fun Time!” 2 Al Jaffee talks with Jim Amash about his tumultuous years at Timely Comics—and just a little about the early days of Mad magazine, as well!

Comic Archive: Fandom across the Puddle 38 Bill Schelly interviews 1960s South African comics fan (and novelist) John Wright.

FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America) #94 43 P.C. Hamerlinck presents Marc Swayze and Big Bang Comics (part 2)—and bids a fond farewell to Shazam!’s Les Tremayne.

The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes Flip Us! About Our Cover: Not only did Al Jaffee have a mountain of colorful and informative anecdotes to relate about the history of the comic book industry—but he’s a good guy, to boot!

With only a little bit of friendly arm-twisting by interviewer/associate editor Jim Amash, Al— who doesn’t ordinarily work for Alter Ego’s less than super-heroic rates—agreed to draw a brand new cover for this side of the issue. For inspiration (and costume info on the heroes), we sent him an early-1940s Timely cover or two drawn by Alex Schomburg, whose exciting and multitude-laden scenes are forever linked with the Golden Age of Marvel… and Al responded with an inspired take-off on same. It features Captain America, Human Torch, and SubMariner, to be sure—but also Super Rabbit, Patsy Walker, and Hedy Wolfe (and Patsy’s boyfriend Buzz), plus some of Al’s own creations: the Squat Car Squad, Ziggy Pig and Silly Seal, and even Ferdy of “Waldo and Ferdy”! Sorry, Mad-lovers—it’s not one of Al’s famous/infamous fold-ins! [Art ©2004 Al Jaffee; characters TM & ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] Above: As he relates in this issue, Al Jaffee never wrote or drew super-heroes for Timely Comics, but he managed to get in the spirit of Martin Goodman’s World War II-era mags all the same. Did ever Cap, Torch, and Namor battle the nefarious Nazis with any more zest than Silly and Ziggy do in this sensational splash page from Krazy Komics #5 (Jan. 1943)? Thanks to Dr. Michael J. Vassallo. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] Alter EgoTM is published monthly by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344.

Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA. Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Single issues: $8 ($10 Canada, $11.00 elsewhere). Twelve-issue subscriptions: $60 US, $120 Canada, $132 elsewhere. All characters are © their respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM of Roy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in Canada.

FIRST PRINTING.

2

Al Jaffee

“It Was A Fun Time!”

AL JAFFEE Talks about His Years at Timely Comics–––and Why and How He Went MAD Interview Conducted & Transcribed by Jim Amash [INTERVIEWER’S INTRODUCTION: Al Jaffee has ruined the value of more comic magazines than any man alive.

Imagine how much your Mad magazines would be worth if you hadn’t spent all those years folding Al’s back covers up in order to see another picture!

But Al’s Mad career is only one fold of his cartooning history. Al Jaffee has been tickling funny bones longer than many of us have been alive, and he’ll probably continue to do so for years to come. In the meantime, let’s peek back through the mists of time and let him reveal the secrets of his Timely Comics days, in one of the most informative interviews you’ll ever see on this subject. If it’s any consolation to those who have folded-up Mads at home, I got even by doing the same to Al’s telephone ear, even though he says he’s forgiven me for it. You’re a good sport, Al! Thanks a million! —Jim.]

“The Sunday Funnies Were Magic!”

JIM AMASH: I’m always interested in the beginnings of creative people. Please tell me where and when you were born— and what got you interested in drawing.

AL JAFFEE: 3-13-21, and I was born in Savannah, Georgia. I’ve been drawing as far back as I can remember. What got me interested as a little kid in Savannah was my father. He was a great copier. He’d get the Sunday funnies, and copy all the funny characters in order to entertain me and my brother Harry. If you were a little kid around the time that I was, the Sunday funny papers were so attractive with their full, beautiful color.

Today, kids have color television, color video games, and the like, so that today’s color funnies aren’t such an outstanding event. In my day, the Sunday funnies were magic! So Harry and I became artists.

JA: When you started drawing, were you also writing your own stories?

Al Jaffee, flanked by art representing the two genres dominant at Timely during the World War II years: super-hero and humor. (Left:) Alex Schomburg’s cover for All Winners Comics #8 (Spring 1943). (Above:) A latter-day Jaffee drawing of Inferior Man, whom Al created—though for Quality, not Timely—plus a pair of nefarious villains. Al says he feels he “could never draw well enough to do” adventure heroes, so he stuck with humor—as well as writing and editing. In any event, everybody came out a winner, including Mad magazine!

Photo & Jaffee art courtesy of Al. [All Winners art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.; other art ©2004 Al Jaffee.]

JAFFEE: Oh, yeah. I made up a character named “Mikey Mouse.” When you’re a kid, you think, “Gee, if I just change the name of the character, that’ll make it an original idea.” We all did it, but then you become more sophisticated and realize that “Mikey Mouse” is exactly like “Mickey Mouse.” So you go on to something else.

JA: I’ve noticed that, whenever I’ve talked to adventure artists, they were influenced by adventure strips. And humor artists were generally inspired by humor features.

JAFFEE: I think that’s true. My influence goes back to artist Rube Goldberg’s Boob McNutt and all the funny strips, although the adventure strips like Little Orphan Annie and Roy Crane’s Wash Tubbs were important and exciting to me. I really loved the adventures of Wash Tubbs with those sort-of European backgrounds.

What predominated in those days, it seems to me, was that the adventure strips were generally drawn in a comic style, like Buck

“It Was A Fun Time!”

3

Two future Mad-men! Al Jaffee (left) and Will Elder hangin’ in the high school cafeteria (at the School of Music and Art) as teenagers in the 1930s, surrounded by a montage of panels from the Depression-era comic strips Al mentions. [Clockwise from top left:] Boob McNutt by Rube Goldberg, co-starring Mike and Ike (“They Look Alike”) (10-15-33)… Little Orphan Annie by Harold Gray (2-4-34)… Wash Tubbs with Captain Easy in Pandemonia, by Roy Crane (1933)… that crazy Buck Rogers stuff by writer Phil Nowlan & artist Dick Calkins (1929)… Flash Gordon by Alex Raymond (8-12-34)… Pat Ryan and Burma in Milt Caniff’s Terry and the Pirates (8-5-36)… and Jungle Jim, who doesn’t look a bit like Johnny Weismuller in this Alex Raymond panel from 1935. Photo courtesy of Al Jaffee. [Comic strip art ©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

Rogers. The characters were funny characters, even though they did serious things. Then along came the super-adventure features like Flash Gordon, Terry and the Pirates, and Jungle Jim. They really started to capture my imagination, but I could never draw well enough to do those, so I stuck to humor.

“Opportunities… Were Exploding All over the Place” JA: Dave Gantz told me that you and he went to the School of Music and Art together.

JAFFEE: Yes, we did. I went to school with Dave Gantz, Harvey Kurtzman, Will Elder, Al Feldstein, John Severin. A host of other guys went there, too. Students at Music and Art came from all five of the boroughs. It happens that Gantz, Elder, and I lived in the Bronx.

Feldstein came from Brooklyn, and Kurtzman from the Bronx, but he was younger than Dave, Bill, and me by a couple of years. Dave, Bill, and I were classmates. We spent a lot of time together. Will Elder and I were very close friends, because we only lived a block from each other.

Dave lived much farther uptown and used to get into trouble on his own. He was a pugnacious little guy; no one could challenge Dave without getting a response. Will and I were more peaceful sorts.

JA: Dave tells me Harvey was the shyest of your group.

JAFFEE: Yes, Harvey was very introspective. He was a very serious humorist, brilliant right from the moment he arrived at Music and Art. I vividly remember seeing a drawing put up on a bulletin board of Harvey Kurtzman’s version of a school boatride. It was very, very well done and very funny to those of us who aspired to be cartoonists, mainly Willy and me. Dave Gantz was a serious artist. He was a painter and did portraits and stuff like that. Dave did not have an ambition to become a cartoonist, but Willy and I had that ambition from the beginning. When we saw Harvey Kurtzman’s stuff, we said, “Who the hell is this kid?

He’s challenging us? He dares!” But he was a brilliant guy.

JA: Were you more interested in doing magazine cartooning or newspaper cartooning?

JAFFEE: To tell you the truth, we were living through the Depression,

4

Al Jaffee

The late Chad Grothkopf (seen in 1994 photo courtesy of Dave Siegel) may have been a close man with a buck, as Al Jaffee remembers, but he had quite a way with a pencil and brush! At top are two pages of an “Imp” story from, of all places, Captain America Comics #14 (May 1942)—script by Stan Lee, art by Chad; the story page is repro’d from a photocopy of the ink-stained original art from the collection of Dr. Michael J. Vassallo (who sent us the splash, as well). Editor Stan must’ve liked “The Imp,” since he’s ballyhooed on the cover—though it’s another Marvel Mystery how Impy could still be “America’s newest laugh sensation“ when he’d debuted two issues earlier!

But it’s no mystery that around this time Chad created “Hoppy the Marvel Bunny” for Fawcett, as per this great black-&-white Hoppy drawing, repro’d from a photocopy of the original art sent by Peter Hansen (via P.C. Hamerlinck). Peter says that Mick Anglo, who put together Fawcett material for I. Miller in England through 1953, told him that most of their reprints were done from original art sent by Fawcett—which, sadly, they generally tossed into the garbage as soon as they were done with it!

Anybody out there got any notion of where this Hoppy drawing was used? [“Imp” & Captain America art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.; Hoppy TM & ©2004 DC Comics.]

and the idea was to figure out some way to get some money to get out of our dismal living conditions. We wanted to escape poverty, so whatever was the path of least resistance was what we’d do. I made up a portfolio that had illustrations, woodcuts, scratchboard... everything under the sun. In fact, my first job involved lettering. The point was to get a job, make some money, and start living. If it came through cartooning, great!

The reason we gravitated towards cartooning was that the opportunities for it were exploding all over the place. Comic books came in just about the time I went to high school, and by the time I graduated from high school, they were desperately looking for writers and artists. It was only natural that we started to drift in that direction.

My first job involved lettering, but not comic book lettering. I worked for a sign company, making stencils for printed signs. That was a terrible job. Every little bit helped, but at $5 a week, it wasn’t the greatest job, not even then.

30

Al Jaffee JAFFEE: That was the one time I had a direct dealing with him. I always had nodding, friendly encounters with him, like when we passed each other in the hall. I’d say, “Hello, Mr. Goodman,” and he’d say, “Hi.” That was it: a simple, cordial relationship.

My relationship with Stan didn’t really change, either. We were always friendly. He was always my boss, and there’s always a distinction between a boss and his employee.

Anybody who says differently is full of it.

“A Check Is a Check” JA: Timely had so many fake company names under which they published. Do you remember what company name was listed on your paycheck?

Millie the Model #6 (June 1947) featured “Millie” stories drawn by Ken Bald and Pete Riss, as well as “Rusty” and “Willie.” There are also contents-page credits for Rob Solomon, Jim Miele, Al Sulman, and Gary Keller, all of whom are mentioned by Al Jaffee in this interview. The page is signed by Roy Thomas because collector William J.B. Dorn III asked him to do so at a 2003 comics convention in St. Louis (since the Missouri-born Rascally One had briefly scripted Millie mags in 1965); later, William generously decided to make a gift of the comic to Ye Ed. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

being as creative as I could. All the other stuff didn’t interest me.

There was one highlight during my editorship. One day, Leon handed me a batch of scripts written by the same woman. He said, “You’ve got to take a look at these. I don’t know what you want to do with these.” Leon would read the scripts before I would, and he didn’t think they were any good at all. I read them and he was right. I said, “Send them all back to this woman and thank her, but these are not up to our standards.”

Shortly after that, either Stan or Robbie came into my office and said, “You have to go see Martin Goodman because your ass is on the griddle.” I went into Martin’s office and he said, “These scripts were written by a friend of my wife. She recommended that this lady write them and submit them to us.” Martin was obviously upset because his wife Jean was upset. He said, “Tell me what’s wrong with them.”

I said, “Mr. Goodman, these scripts are not up to our standards. I understand they were written by your wife’s friend, but they are not up to my standards, and they aren’t up to our standards. However, it is your money and if you want me to buy them, then I will. But I suggest that you read them first so that you don’t wind up throwing your money away for nothing.” He said, “All right. Leave them with me.” I left his office and the only thing I heard was that, a few days later, someone said, “Everything’s okay.” I was right. I didn’t reject the scripts for any personal reasons.

From that point on, I really did enjoy the job of editor. It was a whole new world for me because a lot of very interesting artists came in, and a lot of very interesting scripts for me to edit. I could take a 12-page script and bring it down to a very neat six pages. I’d make thumbnail sketches, too. I found it very exciting and I really enjoyed that job.

JA: Once you were editor, did you have many dealings with Goodman?

JAFFEE: Magazine Management. I don’t recall it saying anything else, but I must confess that I didn’t pay that much attention to it. A check is a check.

JA: Dave Gantz told me what happened when Timely installed a time clock in for the staffers. I know he was very unhappy about it.

Were you?

JAFFEE: It didn’t bother me, because I felt that they had a right to expect us to be in at a certain time and to leave at a certain time. Since I didn’t see any problem in going back and forth to work, I just accepted it. I think most everybody grumbled about it, because a time clock for artists feels like a demeaning sort of thing. The feeling among artists is that you can’t be creative by the clock. However, we were factory workers. It wasn’t like you worked at home and made your own schedule. When you’re on salary, unless you’re in an executive position, you have to punch a time clock, staffers and editors alike. I was still one of the boys then, not an editor yet.

JA: So this was probably in 1947. Was there a specific incident that provoked the use of the time clock?

JAFFEE: I really don’t have any information on that. As far as I was concerned, I felt that it was my job to be in at nine o’clock. Some guys lived in Manhattan and did the party scene, like Jim Miele, who might wander in at eleven o’clock. That could have precipitated it: the idea that not enough people were coming in on time. Then there was the lunch crowd, who might have been taking too long to eat. I don’t remember if we punched out at lunch time or not.

I wasn’t in the position that Robbie Solomon and Frank Torpey were in. Their entire job seemed to be watching how the place was running. If they saw that a room of seven guys only had four people by eleven o’clock, then they probably went to Goodman and told him what was going on. But to me, it didn’t matter a damn bit.

JA: I’m staying with this because it’s striking to me that a room full of artists would have to punch a time clock. I don’t believe any other comics company did that.

“It Was A Fun Time!”

31

JAFFEE: It is striking. I don’t believe anybody ever got punished if they were late. It seems to me that I came in late one time, but I didn’t get my pay docked or anything. It was just an attempt to get everyone to sit up and fly right.

JA: What happened to you when the staff was let go?

JAFFEE: When they let the staff go, I was out of work. There was no work and I don’t know what Timely Comics was doing, but they certainly weren’t calling on me. In between, a friend of mine... I think it was Sol Brodsky... said, “If you’re not doing anything, they are giving out work at Fox Comics. Go up there and take a chance if you want, but he’s notorious for not paying.” I wasn’t working, so I went to see him.

[Victor] Fox’s assistant told him about all the work I had done at Timely, and Fox said, “Give him a comic book to do.” Fox said, “What have you heard about me?” I said, “To be very frank with you, my colleagues have said they’ve had a difficult time getting money from you after they’ve delivered the work.” He said, “What do you think?” I looked him in the eye and said, “You know something, Mr. Fox? I think you’re going to pay me, so I’m going to do the job.”

They gave me the comic book. I don’t remember what the book was, but I did it, and brought it back to them. The front reception room was filled with an angry mob of guys who’d been called in one by one, and told they’d get paid one month from now or two months from now, and even three months from now. Nobody was getting any money because Fox was going out of business. But you know, they called me and told me that they had a check for me, and I was the only one who got paid that day.

I don’t know what the hell that was a demonMad-men meet the super-people! In the 1980s Al Jaffee drew, from a script by former Mad associate stration of, but I just have a feeling that there is editor Jerry de Fuccio, six “dailies” of a Super Heroes National Convention, which was first published something about reaching a contact on a visceral, in Ron Frantz’s Fantastic Adventures #2 (Oct. 1987). Thanks to Ron and Al for permission to reprint human level that works. I couldn’t write down what them here. [©2004 Al Jaffee & Estate of Jerry de Fuccio.] anyone else should do, but I wasn’t arrogant, I didn’t threaten, I didn’t make a joke. I just said, “I think you’re going to pay me and I’m going to do it.” I came out with a check, and it was a substantial check, because I’d penciled and inked and JA: The date I have for the major layoff is a little vague. The most maybe even lettered that one, because I didn’t pay anything to anyone. It often quoted date is early 1950. Rudy Lapick told me he stayed until was the only thing I had going. I got the full amount, which I think was February of 1950. $35 a page.

“When Rudy Lapick Returns, You Have to Fire Him”

I heard that, a couple of days later, Fox folded his business, and nobody got paid. And I’ll tell you what. I went to my bank and told my teller that this check was going to bounce, but it didn’t. That was a miracle.

You know, now that I’m talking about this scene, I remember the faces of so many people I knew in that waiting room, bitter and apprehensive and angry as hell. And then going into that darkened office with Victor sitting there behind his desk, with his assistant... I can almost remember the name of the assistant. Maybe it’ll come to me later.

I don’t know how soon it was after this that I got a call from Stan.

He said, “Al, how would you like to come back and handle Patsy Walker for me?” And that’s when things really started humming.

JAFFEE: That sounds about right, but I have a notion that it was before the end of 1949. I don’t see myself at Timely in 1950. I remember being let go at Christmas-time of 1949.

JA: Stan Goldberg told me he was let go at the end of 1949, too. This is the way I understand it: every week, somebody was let go, and eventually everyone was let go. It was building up to a mass firing.

Rudy Lapick is sure of the date because he got married in May 1948, and when he came back from his honeymoon, he discovered he was out of a job.

Rudy said he complained to you about keeping inker Larry Tullipano on and letting him go, because it was Rudy who was always fixing Tullipano’s inks. Rudy said you went to Stan Lee, came back, and said, “Okay. You can stay, but if there’s another firing, you’re the first to go because you’re the last guy hired.” Rudy said he

No. 94 April 2004

Marc Swayze’s “We didn’t Know...

It Was the Golden Age!”

Capt. Gary’s Big Bang, pt. II A Farewell to Les Tremayne

[The Phantom Eagle and Captain Marvel

by Mark Lewis and P.C. Hamerlinck; Characters ©2004 DC Comics; Artwork ©2004 Mark Lewis & P.C. Hamerlinck.]

44

Marc Swayze 1939... what a year! It was on September 25th that Fawcett Publications named their first editor of comics...

Bill Parker. About the same time, and not many doors away, arrangements were under way at the Bell Syndicate to distribute a new newspaper comic strip, the brainchild of artist Russell Keaton.

By

At Fawcett, when the talents of Parker were combined with those of artist C.C. Beck, the ultimate result became the top-selling comic book character of the 1940s, Captain Marvel. At Bell the culmination was Flyin’ Jenny, blonde aviatrix who was to grace comic strip pages of newspapers across the land, and, translated to six foreign languages, was distributed widely abroad.

[Art & logo ©2004 Marc Swayze; Captain Marvel © & TM 2004 DC Comics]

[FCA EDITOR’S NOTE: From 1941-53, Marcus D. Swayze was a top artist for Fawcett Comics. The very first Mary Marvel character sketches came from Marc’s drawing table, and he illustrated her earliest adventures, including the classic Mary Marvel origin story “Captain Marvel Introduces Mary Marvel” (CMA #18, Dec. ’42); but he was primarily hired by Fawcett Publications to illustrate Captain Marvel stories and covers for Whiz Comics and Captain Marvel Adventures. He also wrote many Captain Marvel scripts, and continued to do so while in the military. After he left the service in 1944, Marc made an arrangement with Fawcett to produce art and stories for them on a freelance basis out of his Louisiana home. There he created both art and story for The Phantom Eagle in Wow Comics, in addition to drawing the Flyin’ Jenny newspaper strip for Bell Syndicate (created by his friend and mentor Russell Keaton).

After the cancellation of Wow, Swayze produced artwork for Fawcett’s top-selling line of romance comics. After the company ceased publishing comics, he moved over to Charlton Publications, where he ended his comics career in the mid-’50s. Marc’s ongoing professional memoirs have been FCA’s most popular feature since his first column appeared in FCA #54, 1996. Last issue, he looked back on his days illustrating The Phantom Eagle – and how the courageous young aviator possessing no super-powers often had to resort to the use of his fists. This time, Marc further examines his affiliation with the Flyin’ Jenny newspaper strip... including a rare meeting with a certain red-suited hero that he also drew! —P.C. Hamerlinck.]

“Raghead,” the second character from left, was suggested by Marc Swayze to Flyin’ Jenny creator/writer/artist Russell Keaton while Marc was assisting on the strip. Panel from the May 12, 1940, strip

by Russell Keaton. [©2004 Bell Syndicate.]

You could almost say... with the help of a bit of imagination... that Captain Marvel and Flyin’ Jenny got into comics simultaneously. Also me. By coincidence alone, during those closing months of ’39... in another part of the world... I was graduating from Louisiana Tech, resuming my career at the reins of a milk wagon, and eventually reporting for my first job as an assistant artist.

In time I was to draw story art and covers featuring Captain Marvel. I also wrote, beginning while still residing within walking distance of the Fawcett offices.

But I never wrote a line of Flyin’ Jenny script... never had the opportunity. It was early 1940... the feature still less than half a year in print.

Keaton had not reached the point where the plotting seemed to be a torturous chore. After my suggestion for the little magician “Raghead” was accepted, there was no encouragement for more of the same... no need for it.

Five or six years later, I held before me a small drawing from a folder titled “Characters.” It was a hasty sketch that I had never been able to pass without pausing… a face... that stared at me with a miserable expression that clearly said, “Please... can’t you find a place for me?”

A rare Mary Marvel drawing… from Marc Swayze’s sketchbook.

[Art ©2004 Marc Swayze; Mary Marvel TM & ©2004 DC Comics.]

I sent that sketch... and my thoughts about it... the strip’s writer, Glenn Chaffin. Glenn, the amiable, easy-to-work-with pro that he was, took it right up. We kicked the idea back and forth by phone and mail until Jenny was finally written into the throes of a large flesh-eating plant. Beyond the earshot of her companions Scoop, Timber, and Red

Les Tremayne

47

Les Tremayne, a.k.a. ‘Mentor’

by Richard Lee and P.C. Hamerlinck Although the character of Mentor never existed in the classic Fawcett “Captain Marvel” stories from the Golden Age, Mentor was a familiar face to millions of television viewers of the 1974-1977 Filmation liveaction children’s show Shazam! on CBS. Mentor was played by veteran character actor Les Tremayne, whose baritone, silken voice was heard on radio for years preceding the advent of the World’s Mightiest Mortal in comic form, and decades before Captain Marvel would be seen on television. Les Tremayne died on December 19, 2003, at the age of 90 in Los Angeles.

Born in April 1913 in Balham, England, Tremayne immigrated to the United States and began working in show business very early in life. He later pursued theater and voice acting on radio shows. He got his big break in Chicago, and soon after worked with a then-relatively unknown performer named Jackie Gleason. Tremayne estimated that he had worked on more than 30,000 radio broadcasts, with up to 45 shows a week in the 1930s. He was best known for his starring roles in The Thin Man, The Falcon, and, most notably, The First Nighter. He was inducted into the Radio Hall of Fame in 1995.

Tremayne’s film work included the role of General Mann in the 1953 film adaptation of H.G. Wells’ War of the Worlds and the flustered auctioneer who argued with Cary Grant in Alfred Hitchcock’s North by Northwest (1959). In television he played Inspector Richard Queen on the 1958-59 NBC series Ellery Queen.

The 1975-76 cast of Shazam!: Les Tremayne as Mentor, John Davey as Captain Marvel, and Michael Grey as Billy Batson.

However, it was the Saturday morning television-watching generation who best remember him as Mentor, the mysterious elderly character who brought sage wisdom to young Billy Batson (Michael Gray) and Billy’s alter ego Captain Marvel (Jackson Bostwick, first season; John Davey, 2nd-3rd seasons) while they traveled the nation in an Open Road motor home emblazoned with a lightning bolt on the hood. When encountering dangerous situations on the highways and byways, it was often Mentor who said to Billy that the “proper authorities” needed to be notified. Mentor would summon the police or highway patrol on the motor home’s cellular phone (long before cell phones were in wide use) while Billy shouted “Shazam!” to summon the immortal powers of “the Elders” to become Captain Marvel.

In his later years, Tremayne told Shazam! fan Richard Lee that people still remembered him as “that old guy in the motor home” who traveled with Billy Batson.

In 1976 Uncle Dudley, who back in the 1940s had doubled as Uncle Marvel, became “Mentor,” as writer E. Nelson Bridwell brought elements of the TV series into DC’s Shazam! comic. This panel, drawn by Kurt Schaffenberger, is from issue #26 (Nov.-Dec. 1976). [©2004 DC Comics.]

In an attempt to boost sales, and banking on the phenomenal success of the television series, DC Comics began to incorporate the character of Mentor and other themes from the TV program within the Shazam! comic book. This was masterfully accomplished without destroying the basic concept and mythos behind the character. Beginning in Shazam! #26 (Nov.-Dec. 1976) writer E. Nelson Bridwell (along with artist Kurt Schaffenberger) had Mr. Morris, Billy’s boss at station WHIZ, assign Batson to tour the country producing specials on America’s youth. The old wizard Shazam (who, in the television show’s greatest absurdity, was totally omitted from the program) ordained Uncle Dudley (now sporting a mustache and new clothes to resemble Tremayne’s character)

Mark Lewis & Bill Fugate

49

Capt. Gary’s Big Bang An Homage to Ages Golden and Silver: Part II

by P.C. Hamerlinck [INTRODUCTION: Last issue we presented an overview of Big Bang Comics, the nostalgically-oriented title created by Gary Carlson and Chris Ecker more than a decade ago, with such heroes as Mighty Man, Thunder Girl, The Knights of Justice, The Knight Watchman, and others, harking back to the Golden (and occasionally Silver) Age of Comics. Part I presented primarily Gary Carlson’s account. This time, we feature the viewpoints of two of the main artists of Big Bang Comics: Mark Lewis (who has also penciled several FCA covers of late, as you probably noticed) and Bill Fugate. —PCH.]

MARK LEWIS Big Bang Comics’ Mark Lewis feels there’s a perception that Big Bang Comics is simply note-for-note riffs on existing characters, but the artist begs to differ. “Big Bang is comics history through a funhouse mirror,” Lewis says. “There’s a sense of deja vu about it, but there are also key divergences from whatever archetypes the characters may be based on. If they were just note-for-note swipes or retreads, then you’d know how every story came out and there’d be no point to doing them in the first place.”

Lewis—who usually works on animated cartoons and a roster that

Mark Lewis art from Big Bang Comics #24. [©2004 Gary Carlson & Chris Ecker.]

includes X-Men (early ’90s series, working closely with Frank Brunner), Fantastic Four (’90s version, second season), Real Adventures of Johnny Quest, four Scooby Doo direct-to-video features, Duck Dodgers, and the Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman feature—believes Gary Carlson was way ahead in the game when interest in proverbial “retro” comics began to surface. Big Bang debuted in early ’94 when grimmer books dominated the comics racks. “Whether acknowledged or not,” Lewis says of Carlson, “he’s plainly been an influence on other creators who’ve tried to revisit the heroic ideals of the characters of the past.”

Is Big Bang something of a love letter to the comics of the past?

“Absolutely,” agrees Lewis. “Gary’s managed to get some very talented artists to draw stories simply out of sheer love for the medium—and the super-hero genre in particular.”

A 2000 Big Bang Christmas card featuring Thunder Girl, drawn by Mark Lewis (with a police officer who bears a resemblance to a certain Big Red Cheese). [©2004 Gary Carlson & Chris Ecker.]

For Lewis, drawing a Big Bang story is like going back in a time machine and tapping into some of that energy and magic that was

50

Capt. Gary’s Big Bang

The splash and another page of the company’s JSA-homage group, drawn by Bill Fugate for the Big Bang Comics Summer Special #1 (Aug. 2003). What better name could there be for the Nazi equivalent of Captain Marvel Jr. than “Hitler Youth”!? [©2004 Gary Carlson & Chris Ecker.]

present in old comics. “A ‘Thunder Girl’ script evokes visuals of C.C. Beck’s or Kurt Schaffenberger’s work before my pencil even comes near a piece of bristol board,” says Lewis.

Drawing a Big Bang story can also be an education in comics history.

Lewis will earnestly study whatever artist he’s attempting to ghost.

“Over the course of the series I’ve had the chance to try on the hats of Simon & Kirby, Jack Kirby (solo), C.C. Beck, H.G. Peter, E.E. Hibbard, Shelly Moldoff, early Alex Toth and Carmine Infantino, Jack Burnley, Bernard Baily, and Gil Kane. Doing this requires you to step outside your own artistic ego and into someone else’s in order to pull it off.

You’re forced to think in different ways from what you’re used to.

Every single time I learn something new that I can apply back to my own work.”

On Fawcett’s “Captain Marvel” stories, particularly those drawn by C.C. Beck, Lewis adds, “There’s something I learned in animation from looking at storyboards that also applies to comics: take a look at your favorite comics and try to follow what’s going on without looking at any dialogue or captions; when the artist has correctly done their job, you should be able to track what’s going on in the story. Try this test on an old ‘Captain Marvel’ tale and see how well the strip holds up. The writers wrote Cap in a world that resembled the one in which the readers lived, yet incredible things could happen. I believe the reason it worked is because they gave Cap’s world its own internal logic and stuck to it. The stories and artwork on ‘Captain Marvel’ could not have complemented each other any better. Each was reinforcing the other,

doing the same things: one verbally and the other visually. It was a perfect synthesis of elements that made for a great strip.”

BILL FUGATE Born in 1954 in Kentucky, artist Bill Fugate remembers the first comics he read were Sunday newspaper strips like Li’l Abner, Smilin’ Jack, Peanuts, and Dick Tracy (which was in a quasi-science-fiction stage at the time). He discovered comic books soon thereafter with Superman, Batman, Mickey Mouse… and then in the ’60s with the emergence of Marvel Comics and Ditko’s Spider-Man and Kirby’s Captain America.

Drawing since the age of three, Fugate’s formal training consisted of the ‘Famous Artists’ correspondence course and a couple of life drawing classes when he attended college. He soon found an outlet for his talents with a variety of low-distributed small press comics (most notably a strip for Reed Waller and Kate Worley’s Omaha, the Cat Dancer) and some fanzine work (including The Comic Reader). He eventually landed penciling work for various Disney comics: Mickey, Goofy, Roger Rabbit’s Toontown (where he drew most of the “Jessica Rabbit” stories), The Little Mermaid, and odds and ends on Darkwing Duck, Duck Tales, Goof Troop, and Tailspin.

Fugate’s artwork effectively tells the story clearly, economically, and