Alter Ego #44 Preview by TwoMorrows Publishing

SPECIAL ISSUE ON THE

PLUS:

JUSTICE SOCIETY, ALL-STAR SQUADRON, & INFINITY, INC.

PLUS:

No. 44 January 2005

FEATURING THIS ALL-STAR CAST: ORDWAY KUBERT • HASEN ANDERSON TOTH • NAYDEL ADLER • BUCKLER MACHLAN THOMAS PLUS:

5.95

INFANTINO SEKOWSKY McFARLANE GRANDENETTI MESKIN • SWAN GONZALES • ANDRU PEDDY • HECK REINMAN • COWAN GIORDANO BERG • AMASH GILBERT • KANE BORING • THORNE FOX • NOVICK ROBINSON • OKSNER BOLTINOFF SPRANGER SIMON & KIRBY McCOY • BRUNNER PALAIS • PLATT BURESCH • BLUMMER FURNESS • LAZARE SCHELLY HAMERLINCK SWAYZE • DUCA SKEATES KURTZMAN • WOOD

& MORE!!

Vol. 3, No. 44 / January 2005 Editor Roy Thomas

Associate Editors Bill Schelly Jim Amash

™

Special Issue On The JSA, ALL-STAR SQUADRON, & INFINITY, INC.

Design & Layout Christopher Day

Consulting Editor John Morrow

FCA Editor P.C. Hamerlinck

Comic Crypt Editor Michael T. Gilbert

Editors Emeritus Jerry Bails (founder) Ronn Foss, Biljo White, Mike Friedrich

Production Assistant Eric Nolen-Weathington

Cover Artist Jerry Ordway

Cover Colorist Tom Ziuko

And Special Thanks to: Arthur Adler Heidi Amash Murphy & Helen Anderson Bob Bailey Mike W. Barr John Benson Bill Black Dominic Bongo Jerry K. Boyd Mark Cannon Rich Buckler Mike Burkey Bob Cherry Shaun Clancy Gerry Conway Dale Crain Fred DeBoom Craig Delich Al Dellinges Mrs. Pat Donath Mrs. Al Duca Michael Dunne Mark Evanier Jennie-Lynn Falk Shane Foley Ed Furness Janet Gilbert Ron Goulart David Hajdu George Hagenauer Jennifer T. Hamerlinck R.C. Harvey Irwin Hasen Dave Herring Steve Herring

Tom Horvitz Al Jaffee Joe Kubert Henry J. Kujawa Gerald Lazare Mike & Eve Machlan Dan Makara Todd McFarlane Brian K. Morris Will Murray Jerry Ordway & Family Fred Patten Joe Petrilak Robert Pincombe Charlie Roberts Ethan Roberts Stephan Rowe Greg Sadowski Mark Shainblum Rick Shurgin Joe Simon Steve Skeates Robin Snyder Marc Svensson Marc Swayze Joel Thingvall Dann Thomas Alex Toth Dr. Michael J. Vassallo Delmo Walters, Jr. Tom Watkins Len Wein John Wilcox Tom Wimbish

This issue is dedicated to the memories of

Joe Buresch, Rudy Palais, & Kin Platt

Contents Writer/Editorial: ...With Liberty And Justice Society For All . . . . . . . . 3 “A Chance To Spread My Wings” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Artist/legend Joe Kubert speaks with Jim Amash about drawing “Hawkman” in the 1940s.

“Cartoonists Are So Unaware Of Who They Are!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 Irwin Hasen on illustrating “Green Lantern,” “JSA,” et al., in the Golden Age.

(Excerpts From A) Postcard from the Edge–– Of California, That Is! . . 20 Alex Toth tells us why he has nothing to say about the JSA.

A “Will” Of The Wisp! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 Still more art from that long-lost mid-1940s “Justice Society” story!

An “Atom” Age Artisan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22 Arthur Adler on his short, sweet comics-writing career in the late 1940s.

Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 A brief conversation with Golden/Silver Age All-Star Murphy Anderson.

[Contents continued on next page.] Above: Along with this issue’s cover, Jerry Ordway was kind enough to send Ye Ed various other pieces of art he drew for DC during the 1980s, including this display drawing done for DC’s marketing department to promote the landmark series Crisis on Infinite Earths. The illo spotlights the Earth-Two Superman and Firebrand (of the All-Star Squadron), Obsidian and Fury (of Infinity, Inc.), and Blue Beetle (of the 1980s Justice League International). What can we say but—“Gorgeous!” [©2005 DC Comics.] Alter EgoTM is published monthly by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA. Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Single issues: $8 ($10 Canada, $11.00 elsewhere). Twelve-issue subscriptions: $60 US, $120 Canada, $132 elsewhere. All characters are © their respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM of Roy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in Canada. FIRST PRINTING.

Title contents

[cont’d]

“I Jumped At The Opportunity!”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 Rich Buckler talks to collaborator Roy Thomas about the All-Star Squadron.

“You Really Put Me Through My Paces!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43 Jerry Ordway on working with Mike Machlan & Roy Thomas on All-Star Squadron.

From The Centurions To Infinity, Inc. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52 Roy Thomas’ original 1982 proposal for the feature that became Infinity, Inc.

Tributes to Joe Buresch, Kin Platt, & Rudy Palais. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 59 Comic Crypt: “I Like Ike!” Part Two . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 65 Michael T. Gilbert shows comic book artists saluting President Eisenhower in 1954.

Tales Calculated To Drive You…Odd! Part Two . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71 Bill Schelly completes his interview with 1960s parodists Steve & Dave Herring.

re: [comments, correspondence, & corrections] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 77 FCA (Fawcett Collector of America) #103. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 81 P.C. Hamerlinck presents Al Duca, Steve Skeates, Marc Swayze—& Louis LeBone!

About Our Cover: In 1983 Jerry Ordway was in the process of seguing from penciling All-Star Squadron to inking (or so he intended) the upcoming title Infinity, Inc. DC asked him to draw a two-page spread for its summer publication The DC Sampler, which was to be distributed free as a promotion piece—so Jerry produced this powerful panorama symbolizing events in All-Star Squadron #26 and that mag’s second Annual, which would guest-star the new heroes of Infinity, Inc. Ever since, two or three years ago, Jerry sent Alter Ego’s editor (and his 1983 collaborator) Roy Thomas a photocopy of that illustration, it was a foregone conclusion that it would become a wraparound cover of A/E! And now it has! [©2005 DC Comics.]

™

COMING IN FEBRUARY

• Sensational brand-new full-color Sandman cover by CREIG FLESSEL! • The Two Greatest Artists of the Gas-Mask SANDMAN! Fascinating interview with comics pioneer CREIG FLESSEL, conducted by JIM AMASH—plus an in-depth study of BERT CHRISTMAN, the original artist (and probable creator) of The Sandman, by DAVE ARMSTRONG—with tons of rare art and vintage photos! • Scarce and never-before-seen artwork by JACK COLE, JOE SHUSTER, FRED GUARDINEER, CHAD GROTHKOPF, BILL ELY, GILL FOX, OGDEN WHITNEY, et al.! • Special Bonus! Author MICHAEL CHABON talks with ROY THOMAS about his Golden Age research for his Pulitzer Prize-winning novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay, with art by GIL KANE, WILL EISNER, JACK KIRBY, DICK AYERS, & MART NODELL! • Tributes to Golden Age artists IRV NOVICK & HARRY LAMPERT! • Plus—FCA with MARC SWAYZE, C.C. BECK, & OTTO BINDER’s lost “Jon Jarl” story— MICHAEL T. GILBERT on BERNIE WRIGHTSON & other young pros at Warren, circa 1970—BILL SCHELLY on comic fandom—ALEX TOTH on anything he feels like talking about—& MORE!! Edited by ROY THOMAS

SUBSCRIBE NOW! Twelve Issues in the US: $60 Standard, $96 First Class (Canada: $120, Elsewhere: $132 Surface, $180 Airmail). NOTE: IF YOU PREFER A SIX-ISSUE SUB, JUST CUT THE PRICE IN HALF!

TwoMorrows. Bringing New Life To Comics Fandom. TwoMorrows • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA • 919-449-0344 • FAX: 919-449-0327 • E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com • www.twomorrows.com

Title writer/editorial

...With Liberty And Justice Society For All!

e’re starting the New Year off with a few changes—which somehow seems the right time for them. And we’re not talking about this issue’s dedication largely to a single theme, that of the Golden Age Justice Society and its later spin-offs, the All-Star Squadron and Infinity, Inc., both conceptualized by Ye Editor in the 1980s.

year—that sometimes the “flip” covers confused browsers, who couldn’t recall if they’d already purchased an issue earlier: “Hmmm… the Dave Stevens Sheena cover on #21 looks familiar… but not the Irwin Hasen JSA re-creation on the other side. Do I have this issue at home, or not?” So, for the foreseeable future, there’ll be just one cover… and we’ll have to go for the strongest image we can find that fits that month’s contents.

First off, although Alter Ego did have one previous wraparound cover (on Vol. 3, #5), you may have noticed that this issue is different. Namely, you don’t have to turn it upside down to read half of it. For, as of this month, we are, with some reluctance, abandoning the concept of “flip” covers and sections, probably for good. Starting with #45, there’ll be just one A/E cover to ogle… a situation which has both its up side and its down side.

The other minor change starting with this issue is that it’s eight pages thinner than editions since #15. Sure, we’d like to slide by without mentioning this—but we figure A/E’s readers can count. We also figure that most of them will consider 100 pages (counting covers) to be an adequate bargain at $5.95—or $1 less, if they have a subscription. Actually, 100 pages was the page count for issues #2-14, and the 8-page increase was meant to be temporary. So much material has come streaming in from all sides, however, that I clung to the slightly greater length for three years, and John indulged me. But the time has finally come when we either had to increase the cover price, or drop a measly half-signature, and the latter seemed the preferable route. We hope you agree, and will continue to feel—as many of you have said you do—that Alter Ego is one of the best and most unique comics-related magazines in the market.

The “flip” nature of A/E was a holdover from the late ’90s, when A/E itself was merely a 16- to 40-page addendum to Jon B. Cooke’s original Comic Book Artist. It was Jon who suggested the “flip” bit, printing A/E upside Jerry Ordway’s Newsboy Legion/Guardian down to the main body of CBA. With a bit of pin-up from All-Star Squadron Annual #1 (1982). arm-twisting, I persuaded amiable publisher Repro’d from a photocopy of the original art, John Morrow to continue the “flip” concept, courtesy of J.O. [©2004 DC Comics.] originally because I intended to devote half of each issue of A/E to the Golden Age, and half to the Silver. When that unwieldy plan fell by the wayside after an issue or two of this third volume, I kept the two-cover look because it freed me to Other than that, we can only repeat what we’ve mentioned once or use at least one cover each month which didn’t have to be overtly twice before: if you want to make certain that A/E continues its monthly “commercial.” We figured, for instance, that Dave Cockrum’s X-Men illo schedule, honoring the Golden and Silver and even Bronze Age creators of would be more likely to make retailers order copies of A/E #24 than the heroic comics, there are two things you can do to help: equally stand-out Mort Meskin drawing of Vigilante on that issue’s flip side. This was in no way an aesthetic judgment—for every reader who (1) Buy every issue—not just one that emphasizes DC, or Marvel, or decried the double-cover thing , there was another one who loved it—but some favored artist or writer or subject. For A/E to appear monthly, we that was John’s and my own imperfect response to what we deem the need to have a certain base sale each month, not just when some relatively marketplace to be. “hot” topic or creator is covered. Besides, I’ll be bluntly honest about it— if a comics fan can’t find $6 worth of value in each and every A/E, I don’t But it’s just proven too time-consuming and, in the end, expensive to think he or she has much real interest in the history of the field. What’s feature two covers every month. It’s not that sales of Alter Ego are the use of only reading about creators and creations you already know declining—but they’ve stayed relatively flat since the aftermath of 9-11-01, you like? and the economic realities finally caught up with us. Besides, John has this theory—and who am I to say he’s wrong, since he and Eric Nolen(2) Please tell other folks about Alter Ego. It’s kinda depressing each Weathington hawk back issues of A/E at numerous comicons every month to find out that some dyed-in-the-wool fan of the Golden and Silver Ages hasn’t even been aware of Alter Ego’s first 40-plus issues. One comics convention organizer only saw the mag for the first time as Monthly! The Original First-Person History– this issue was in preparation—and instantly bought an ad. It goes without saying that selling an extra ad or two helps assure that A/E will either be published by Robin Snyder in your mailbox, or on the racks or under the counter at your friendly neighborhood comics shop, each and every month. Okay, end of hard-sell. Don’t worry—Alter Ego is definitely not on its last legs—far from it! In fact, it would take only a relatively few additional copies sold each month to make certain that it continues to come your way for years to come. We don’t want in any way to denigrate those of you who support it by buying most issues, or even just the occasional one—but if you can see your way clear to do a bit more, we’ll all benefit!

Write to: Robin Snyder, 3745 Canterbury Lane #81, Bellingham, WA 98225-1186

Bestest,

The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s

part one

“A Chance To Spread My Wings” Artist & Legend JOE KUBERT Talks About Drawing “Hawkman” In The 1940s Interview Conducted by Jim Amash

Transcribed by Tom Wimbish

NTERVIEWER’S INTRO: While “Hawkman” wasn’t the first feature Joe Kubert drew in the Golden Age of Comics, his stint on that character is his most memorable of the time period. Hawkman was also a leading hero in “The Justice Society of America” in All-Star Comics, and was popular enough to star on every second cover of Flash Comics. Hawkman went through a few changes in the late 1940s, and here now is Joe to tell us about those changes and what it was like to draw the Winged Wonder, under the tutelage of two editorial legends—first Shelly Mayer, and later Julius Schwartz. —Jim. JIM AMASH: When Shelly Mayer gave you a “Wildcat” story while “Hawkman” was your regular assignment, would he tell you why? JOE KUBERT: I was very young at the time, and had complete trust in the fact that Shelly felt that I could handle any jobs that he gave me. I looked forward to doing them. There was nothing special about drawing “Wildcat” or any of the other features. Even when I was doing “Hawkman,” the character itself was really meaningless to me, Joe Kubert graciously autographing a comic at the All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention at White Plains, NY, in 2000—flanked by “Hawkman” splashes he’d done for Flash Comics more than a half century earlier! At left is his first, from Flash #62 (Feb. 1945)—above, the one for the final issue (#104, Feb. 1949). Of course, even earlier in 1944, he’d drawn the “Dr. Fate” chapter in All-Star Comics #21, and his very first “Hawkman” story in The Big All-American Comic Book. The former was reprinted in All Star Comics Archives, Vol. 5, the latter in the just-published DC Comics Rarities Archives, Vol. 1. Thanks to Joe Petrilak for the photo—and to Kubertfan Al Dellinges for the two Flash Comics pages. Incidentally, Al pointed out years ago that an under-20 and probably nervous Joe Kubert left a letter out of the hero’s partly-obscured logo! [Hawkman art ©2005 DC Comics.]

except that it gave me an opportunity to draw comic books and an occasional cover. Whenever I brought in a job (which I did on an erratic schedule, because I was going to school at the time and was terrible with deadlines), Shelly would always have another job waiting for me, even though I didn’t quite meet the deadlines that he set. JA: What do you think Shelly saw in you? KUBERT: Probably the same thing he saw in guys like Carmine Infantino and Alex Toth: we were young kids, and Shelly was an incredibly sensitive person who recognized in others those things that he felt himself. He recognized in me and the other guys a love for what we wanted to do. We expressed that love with the effort that we put into the work that we did. Sure, we were doing lousy, terrible stuff, but he saw potential in the fact that we put every effort into it. Since he felt the same way about the work, he encouraged us. That was something for which we were all grateful. JA: Irwin Hasen told me that Shelly would sometimes throw the pages up in the air, and things like that.

“A Chance To Spread My Wings”

KUBERT: I was there once when that happened. That was because Shelly and Irwin were such good friends. Shelly was a little bit of a nut, anyhow. He was a nice guy, a wonderful guy, but he could do some crazy things. JA: Did he ever throw your pages up in the air or stomp on them? KUBERT: No, because I would have thrown him right out the window. I wasn’t the sort of person who’d appreciate that kind of treatment, so Shelly never did that sort of thing with me. JA: Alex Toth told me Shelly would always encourage him to write and letter his stories, as well. Did he encourage you to do the same thing? KUBERT: Definitely, and I lettered most of my stuff at the beginning. I got lettering lessons from Sol Harrison, who was in the production department at that time, and later became the president and publisher of DC. Shelly felt that it was important for a guy getting into the business to know as much about it as he possibly could. He even encouraged us to go down to the engravers (which was just across the street) to see what they did with our work, so that we’d have a better sense of what would happen before the stuff was published. There were incredible changes between what we’d see on the originals and what we’d eventually see in print. The kind of printing that was being used at the time involved metal plates that had to be etched with acids. The colors were basic, and the registration was so far off that it was ridiculous. It was important to know what the work was going to look like when it was printed, and to understand the problems and vicissitudes that the guys who worked on our stuff went through, so that we would have a fighting chance to make our work legible. JA: People like Gardner Fox, John Broome, and Robert Kanigher were writing your stories. Did you have a favorite writer? KUBERT: No, it didn’t make any difference at all. I had no idea who the hell the writer was. I’d get the script in typed form, and it was years before I actually met any of the writers. We would only meet if we happened to come up to the office at the same time. Other than that, most of the artists never even met the writers. The writing

All-American Comics editor Sheldon Mayer seems (thanks to our clever juxtaposition) to be looking approvingly at the splash page of the “Wildcat” story Joe drew for Sensation Comics #66 (June 1947). Repro’d from a black-&-white Australian reprint comic, with thanks to Shane Foley. The pic of Shelly M. is a detail from a 1942 photo printed in Wonder Woman #2. [©2005 DC Comics.]

was the editor’s bailiwick, and what was given to the artist was the result of the efforts between the editor and the writer. Shelly never really encouraged us to write; we had enough trouble learning how to draw. [laughs] JA: When you did a story for him, you wouldn’t letter or ink until the pencils were approved, right? KUBERT: Right. First we’d do full pencils, and we’d show them to Shelly. Shelly would then go through the script and pencils, and tell us where he felt corrections should be made. Then we would letter and ink. Shelly requested changes very infrequently, which was really great. There were scheduling deadlines to be met, so instead of haunting us with changes on stuff that was already done, Shelly was more likely to tell us to watch out for those mistakes on the next jobs we would do.

From almost the beginning of Flash Comics, Hawkman tended to be featured on half its covers. Here’s Kubert’s third cover—for #67 (Oct.-Nov. 1945), during a period when the comic dropped to bimonthly status for a year, and the AllAmerican group had apparently split off from National/DC and adopted its own similar logo. Thanks to Al Dellinges. [©2005 DC Comics.]

What sticks out in my mind was his comment about drawing kids: you don’t draw a kid with the same expressions as an adult. A kid is a kid, and he looks like a kid. The proportions are different, the looks are different, and the expressions are different. He pushed that across to me so that the characters I’d draw would be as credible as possible. JA: Did he encourage you to build reference and swipe files, or to study certain artists?

Joe Kubert Talks About Drawing “Hawkman” In The 1940s

KUBERT: Not to study certain artists, but to have reference files, which were critical. It’s still critical today; every artist I know— including me—uses a reference file. Now, of course, we resort to the computer, which has everything on any kind of subject at a moment’s notice. But before that, we had to clip out the stuff and categorize it, so that when we needed a particular subject—a car, an animal, whatever it might be—we could turn to our reference file and use it. JA: On the Hawkman covers you did for Flash Comics, was there a separate conference when you’d show cover roughs to Shelly? How did that work?

JA: When you started to work on “Hawkman,” how familiar were you with the character? KUBERT: Not at all. I was introduced to the character when I went up to the AllAmerican offices at 225 Lafayette Street and they asked me to draw him. I may have been aware of the character in a passing manner, but it was never something that stuck in my mind. Shelly Moldoff was doing the strip before I did, and he had patterned his style after Hal Foster or Alex Raymond. I was not even asked to follow his style; Shelly Mayer just gave some books to me and said, “Here, draw it.”

JA: Don’t you think that KUBERT: Usually he would Hawkman visually suggest a particular scene that Joe almost certainly drew this splash for Flash Comics #67 months before he did its cover. descended from the took place in the story, and How can we tell? As covered on the next page (and in The All-Star Companion, Vol. 1), the sequence in Alex Raymond’s just tell me to draw wings on Hawkman’s mask are the clue, Sherlock. They’re much bigger and wider-flaring Flash Gordon Sunday strips on the cover than on this splash, where they still more closely resemble the 1940-44 something to take-off on that. in which Flash fights the version by artist Sheldon “Shelly” Moldoff. Thanks to Al Dellinges. [©2005 DC Comics.] Of course, I had to incorHawkmen of Mongo? porate the title of the book and any blurbs that might accompany it. I don’t remember any real KUBERT: Well, it seems reasonable that Hawkman was a take-off from conferences, though. Once Shelly approved the initial penciled idea, it those characters, but I thought it was a complete departure from that. I was up to me to finish it. I don’t recall him ever having me change or vividly remember the Flash Gordon sequence. I loved that strip; I alter any of the covers I brought in. I don’t think I submitted my own remember getting the Big Little Books and poring over those things. But cover ideas, but I don’t think that I went directly with what Shelly I never related one to the other. suggested, either. We would discuss it, but then the final decision would unquestionably be Shelly’s. I think those were probably the first covers I JA: When you went into Shelly’s office, did you just walk in? ever did. KUBERT: Well, I’m sure there was a receptionist outside, and I JA: It sounds to me as if the covers were drawn after the stories were remember that at All-American, the offices were separated by glass done. walls. They were not partitioned; they were enclosed offices. I would tell the receptionist I was there, and if I remember correctly, I was usually KUBERT: I don’t recall exactly, Jim, but I believe they were. ushered right in; there was no waiting or anything. That was true of all of us. It’s not as if there was such an onrush of people trying to get in JA: That’s interesting, because a lot of companies did their covers that there was a waiting line. before the stories. KUBERT: That’s right. I remember times when Kanigher would jump off from a cover idea and go write a story. JA: Did you feel as if Shelly was showing his respect for you by letting you do Hawkman covers for Flash Comics? KUBERT: I’m not sure, but I doubt if that’s true. I don’t know why Shelly gave me the covers. Maybe he was giving me a chance to spread my wings a bit. Maybe it was because there was a deadline, and he couldn’t get the guy who was supposed to do the cover. Chances are that I did the covers because I was the regular feature artist. I tried to make a special effort when I did them. I realized their importance: they were on the outside of the magazine rather than the inside, and when they were displayed in a store or exhibited anyplace, that’s what you would see. I was impressed by that, and I tried my best when I did those covers. I don’t really remember if I got a higher rate for the cover art, but I don’t think I did.

During the years I was drawing “Hawkman,” I would drive into the city, and I was able to park downstairs and leave one of my family sitting in the car, because it didn’t take me that long to run up and down and take care of everything. JA: You were a young guy at the time. What did your parents think about all this? KUBERT: My parents were born in Europe, and the idea of anybody being able to make a livelihood by drawing these little crazy pictures was a little bit beyond them; they couldn’t believe it. I drew pictures all the time as a kid—my father was a butcher, and I would draw on the paper bags—and they couldn’t imagine that what I was doing could eventually generate an income. I have four sisters, and before any of us married, moved out of the house, or took on our own personal responsibilities, all the money that was being made went to the Treasurer: my mother. When anybody needed any money, they would come to the Treasurer. It was interesting

“A Chance To Spread My Wings” to the Treasurer that I was bringing in perhaps more than my father was making as a butcher. They encouraged me to draw before that, too, even though they never dreamed that I’d be able to make a living at it. I don’t think they were really aware that I was succeeding, but they were pleased that I was able to make a living and bring some money into the house. In terms of my accomplishment as an artist, I think they were always proud that I could draw. JA: When did you start working in a studio instead of at home? KUBERT: I lived at home until I joined the Army in 1950, but in the ’40s I had this studio up at Park Avenue. I know that sounds great, but it was this little, old, skinny building among all the beautiful buildings. It had a little elevator, and if you crowded two people into it, you weren’t sure you were going to make it upstairs. [laughter] Photographer Brad Smith rented the place, and we sublet a room. JA: Although you drew “Hawkman” chapters and one “Doctor Fate” for the Justice Society stories in AllStar, you never drew the whole team, right? KUBERT: Right, but it didn’t make a particle of difference to me. I was just interested in the next story I might be getting, and in trying to do the best job I could. JA: Did DC supply your paper? KUBERT: Yes. That was one of the big benefits of working for DC: not having to go out and buy paper—which was expensive at the time—and getting the quality of paper the other guys were using, which you can’t even buy anymore. JA: In those days, did you try to get your original art back?

KUBERT: I think I patterned the wings after Shelly Moldoff’s, to begin with. Nobody asked me to do the costume differently, and I changed very little about it, although our drawing styles were different. Then, little by little, I began to make the wings look more birdlike. I also tinkered a little bit with the headgear. JA: So it was a matter of artistic temperament rather than boredom? KUBERT: Pretty much so. Later, Julie Schwartz suggested that we change the mask and costume a little bit to create more interest in the character. Up to that point, though, any changes that took place were at my whim. JA: The change you’re talking about is the one in the ’40s when you got rid of the hawk mask and gave him a yellow pull-over mask with a hawk emblem on it, right? KUBERT: Yeah. There were several different changes. JA: Although you weren’t involved in the coloring of the stories that you did for Shelly Mayer, did he encourage you to think about color?

KUBERT: Absolutely. I had conversations with Sol Harrison, Eddie Eisenberg, and possibly Jack Adler. Here’s a progression of They were doing color Hawkman heads, to demonstrate plates for comic books how Joe slowly evolved the look. (Clockwise and working on color from above:) (a) Head by Sheldon Moldoff from separations for Hal Flash Comics #40 (April 1943)… (b) Kubert’s first Hawkman story, Big All-American Comic Book (1944)… (c) Foster’s Prince another head from his Flash debut in #62 (Feb. ’45)… (d) the Valiant at the same helmet-wings are beginning to flare a bit by Flash #66 (Aug.time. They spent a Sept. ’45)… (e) they reach their most dramatic form, in Ye hell of a lot more time Editor’s view, in Flash #73 (July ’46)… (f) they get maybe a wee on Prince Valiant, and bit too wild by #75 (Sept. ’46)… (g) in Flash #88 (Oct. ’47), really loved what they suddenly the head-wings are more subdued—and the mask is were doing. Talking with abruptly missing a bottom beak!… (h) the “beak” shape abruptly those guys really gave vanishes completely in the very next issue, #89 (Nov. ’47), though insight about color. I the #88 look will pop up again in an occasional story… and (i) both the head-wings and hawk-like helmet are dropped in sometimes wrote color favor of a simple cowl with a hawk-sigil, as of Flash Comics notes on the pages. I #98 (Aug. ’48). This was probably a decision made by don’t know how new full-editor Julius Schwartz, who succeeded much good they did; Shelly Mayer when he resigned in 1947-48. none of the artists who Thanks to Al Dellinges for the Kubert added color notes knew samples. [©2005 DC Comics.] whether they’d be followed, or even looked at. We hoped that somebody would pay attention, though.

KUBERT: No, and I think that was true of 99 and 9/10 % of the people working back then. The artwork was destroyed by most publishers because they felt that it wasn’t worth the space it would take up in a warehouse. If an artist had wanted his work back, he could have gotten it. However, most of us felt that the publishers paid us for the work that we’d done, and that it now belonged to them. We were perfectly satisfied with that. JA: If I were 16 or 17 years old and drawing comics, I think if I’d done something I really liked, I’d want examples of it to keep.

JA: Once the books were on the stands, how closely did you examine your work in print? KUBERT: Sometimes I didn’t want to look at it at all, because the color registration was so far off, and sometimes the black plates turned out to be gray. It really hurt to look at the printed results. JA: Were you making mental notes about what printed well, what reduced well, and what didn’t?

KUBERT: Well, you would if you felt that it was yours, but there was a tacit understanding that when the guy paid you for the work, the work was his. How could you ask him to give back something that he had just bought from you? We didn’t even think of it.

KUBERT: Yeah, but to say that it wasn’t a thrill to see your stuff in print would have been a bald lie. Every one of us looked forward to seeing the stuff in print, knowing that it was actually being published and going all over the United States. It was always a thrill that other people were actually seeing the stuff.

JA: Let’s discuss how you drew Hawkman’s wings.

JA: Would you say that even though you were still learning the craft,

The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s

part two

“Cartoonists Are So Unaware Of Who They Are!” IRWIN HASEN On Drawing “Green Lantern,” “JSA,” Et Al., In The Golden Age Interview Conducted by Jim Amash

Transcribed by Tom Wimbish

NTERVIEWER’S NOTE: It’s been my good fortune to spend time with Irwin Hasen at comic book conventions. This past year, we sat next to each other at Heroes Con in Charlotte, NC, and while I did most of the talking, Irwin—as always—entertained me with stories about people he had known in comics. I realized Irwin Hasen enjoying himself at the I wanted to get some of All Time Classic New York Comics that information in print, Convention in 2000—pages from his preWWII sting as a “Green Lantern” artist. and happily, Irwin agreed At right is his splash from All-American to this interview, which Comics #47 (Feb. 1943). Thanks to was meant to complement Joel Thingvall for the photocopy of the Roy Thomas’ interview original art. [GL art ©2005 DC Comics.] with him, which appeared in the first issue of the current volume of Alter Ego. As many of you know, Irwin’s the life of every convention he attends. And he places good, affordable prices on the work he sells, too—so tell Irwin that Alter Ego sent you the next time you see him. Thanks, Irwin, for a fun and informative chat. —Jim. JIM AMASH: You mentioned Bert Whitman to me at the Heroes Convention this past June. What can you tell me about him? IRWIN HASEN: Bert Whitman was a top editorial cartoonist at a Detroit newspaper in the 1930s. He left the Midwest and came to New York, where he became sort of an entrepreneur, working for the publisher of The Green Hornet. I met him during that time. After that, he did a comic strip called Debbie Dean for The New York Post. He’s the one who arranged to have me do The Goldbergs. Jerry Robinson was supposed to do it first, but there was an altercation over salary between Jerry and the executive editor. Jerry just sort-of conked out and Bert called me. I had just gotten out of the Army, and it was a wonderful opportunity for me. I worked there in the newspaper office for one of the happiest years of my life. Just like in the movies—The Front Page, and all that. I worked there at a drawing board, and Stanley Kaufman wrote the strip, though I never met him. He later became a music editor or something like that. I met some wonderful people there like Victor Riesel, the labor editor, who was blinded by gangsters. Bert Whitman was a flamboyant guy. He was 6'4", very dapper, kindof a playboy type. He was entrepreneur-ish; he wasn’t really a cartoonist as we know cartoonists. He has since died, by the way. I never saw enough of his editorial stuff to comment on it. Debbie Dean just briefly had its star.

Bert had been a polo player in Detroit. I visited him at his house in Long Island, and I saw his polo mallet in the corner. I said, “Gee, Bert, I’d love to have that for my apartment; I just moved in.” So he said, “Yeah okay, you can have it; I don’t need it.” About five years later, he was moving out to Stockton, California, to become an editorial cartoonist, and Bert called me up and said, “Look, I’m moving out there. Could you mail me that mallet?” So I had to go to the Daily News syndicate, and have the mailroom guys wrap up his polo mallet and mail it to him. That was ridiculous... genuinely stupid on his part... not nice. I worked in his office, doing “Cat-Man” at the time [1940]. I was told by Julie Schwartz that I was the first one to draw “Cat-Man.” I don’t remember that, but if Julie said so, it had to be right. JA: You started at the Chesler shop. What do you remember about Harry Chesler?

Irwin Hasen On Drawing “Green Lantern,” “JSA,” Etc., In The Golden Age Gleason Publications, and he started to make a lot of money. I can remember when Charlie bought himself a Jaguar, a white one, and he showed it to all of us. It was adorable. He opened up the trunk and showed us the elegant toolbox that came with it. [laughs] JA: Why did he have holes in his sweater? HASEN: He was that kind of guy. He was probably broke. He was a “huh-huh-huh” kind of a guy. You know, “huh-huh-huh.” JA: What do you remember about Mort Meskin and Irv Novick?

Bert Whitman Strikes Twice! (Above:) These final two panels from Whitman’s first Debbie Dean, Career Girl newspaper daily—dated Jan. 11, 1942— follow ones explaining that “Debbie Dean, heiress to a fabulous fortune, tires of the life of a debutante,” so she becomes a reporter. This art was reprinted in Coulton Waugh’s seminal 1947 book on comic strips, The Comics. (Right:) Oddly, though Irwin Hasen drew the very first “Cat-Man” story in Holyoke’s Crash Comics #4, Whitman drew the first cover featuring Cat-Man, on Crash #5 (Nov. 1940). [Debbie Dean art ©2005 The New York Post Syndicate or its successors in interest; Crash art ©2005 the respecive copyright holders.]

Novick and his wife and I got to be very friendly. He was a grade-A carpenter; he built his house with his own hands. He was a great artist, one of the best. He always smoked a pipe.

HASEN: He was a very interesting kind of a man. He had offices like a schoolroom: behind each oldfashioned desk was a cartoonist in his 20s, and he treated them as if they were students. He was the headmaster, with a felt hat, a cigar in his mouth, and a vest. He’d walk around the guys like they were children in his classroom. They were doing the odds and ends of his workshop. He farmed out work. I did single pages and sports cartoons for him—fillers. The others—Charlie Biro, Mort Meskin, Irv Novick—they all sat like children in a classroom. I worked as a staffer in his building from 1939 to 1940. He used to come up to everybody at the end of the week and say, “How little do you need to live on?” [laughter] And you looked at him as if he was joking, but he wasn’t! But he was all right. He was a man of his time. He was sort of a third-rate entrepreneur in a run-down building on East 23rd Street, with a classroom. Charlie Biro was a big, lovable guy in a red sweater with holes at the elbows, sitting there in the classroom. Then he went on to work with Bob Wood at Lev

HASEN: Mort and I were very close. He was very shy; he stuttered. He was a low-key, shy man, very sensitive, and a wonderful artist. His eyes would blink when he stuttered. You knew he was going to be in bad shape later in his life. You just had that feeling. We didn’t talk too much, but Mort was a sweetheart. My whole life has been about making people laugh. I don’t know why, but that was my schtick in life, and I always loved to make Mort laugh.

JA: How many people were working in the Chesler shop? HASEN: About twenty people. Winsor McCay’s son Bob was also there. He was a quiet guy, skinny and dark-skinned. Joe Kubert was Chesler’s mascot. He loved Joe and Joe loved him. It was like a father-son relationship. But I don’t think I met Joe until I was working for DC. We sat there quietly, getting our work done. That’s all. There was no fooling around. I don’t remember how much I was paid... maybe it was $8 a page. We were paid in cash. JA: Why did you leave Chesler? HASEN: I went up to DC because an uncle of mine knew Jack Liebowitz, who was then an accountant for Harry Donenfeld at

When editor Julius Schwartz reminded Irwin Hasen that he was the first artist to draw “Cat-Man,” he was no doubt actually referring to “Wildcat,” which Irwin initiated later in DC/AA’s Sensation Comics #1 (Jan. 1942). The rare drawing at left was done (and even colored!) by Irwin in 1941 for fellow artist Jon Chester (“Chet”) Kozlak, who drew “Wildcat” a couple of years later. A copy was sent to us by Hasen agent (and friend) Dan Makara. But Julie was right, albeit by accident! Irwin also drew the first “Cat-Man” story—for Crash Comics #4 (Sept. 1940). As per the splash and other panel above, the Holyoke Cat-Man was originally a cross between Batman and Tarzan. This origin tale was reprinted in AC Comics’ Cat-Man Ashcan Edition No. 2 (1996); check out AC’s ad elsewhere in this issue. [Wildcat art ©2005 Irwin Hasen; Wildcat TM & ©2005 DC Comics; restored “Cat-Man” art ©2005 AC Comics.]

The All-Stars: From The ’40s to the ’80s

part six

Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights A Brief Talk With Golden/Silver Age All-Star MURPHY ANDERSON

Conducted by Jim Amash

Transcribed by Tom Wimbish

NTERVIEWER’S INTRO: Murphy Anderson’s role in the 1960s revival of the Justice Society heroes was one of the artistic highlights of his career. His life-long fascination with those characters made him a natural choice for the JSArelated team-ups in Showcase and The Brave and the Bold, as well as the “Spectre” series that soon followed. Murphy wasn’t able to continue down this path, but his warm, elegant artwork greatly enriched the JSA mythos, and we’re happy that Murphy expressed his thoughts about that work for us. This interview is ©2005 Murphy Anderson & Jim Amash. —Jim. JIM AMASH: Why were you picked for the JSA-related teamups with Dr. Fate and Hourman, and Starman and Black Canary, in 1965? MURPHY ANDERSON: I was doing a lot of work for Julie Schwartz at the time, and he knew that I was familiar with all of those old characters, maybe more so than some of the artists who had been with him longer. I knew all those characters from their earliest beginnings. As we talked about it, I brought in copies of my old books with the characters in them. It worked out that he needed me for the assignment, and the JSA books were done concurrently. I think “The Spectre” cropped up after the others were done.

Mr. and Mrs. Murphy Anderson at the Heroes Con in Charlotte, NC (June 9, 2001)—a photo taken by Bob Bailey on the same day as that of Hasen and Schwartz on p. 16—plus a chaptersplash from the first “Spectre” revival story, in Showcase #60 (Feb. 1966). If you wanna see a great repro of that issue’s page 1 splash, grab a copy of R.C. Harvey’s excellent and art-filled 2003 volume The Life and Art of Murphy Anderson—still on sale in this issue’s TwoMorrows ad bloc. [Spectre art ©2005 DC Comics.]

JA: Since you grew up with these characters, these stories must have had special meaning for you. ANDERSON: Sure. I liked “The Spectre” quite well when the character was originally introduced. “Starman” was just around; I never cared much for the feature. “Black Canary” was even later; the character came out after World War II. I enjoyed “Dr. Fate” and “Hourman” very much. I particularly liked Hourman; he even inspired a little marionette I made when I was in junior high school there at Greensboro Central. We had a class project to make little marionettes. They were each about one foot tall, and I designed a super-hero for one of mine. My mother sewed a cape for him, and all that garbage. I made a hood for him out of oilcloth, I believe. I forget what I called him, but it might have been one of my own characters; I had a couple of ideas that I was playing with at the time. Murphy mentioned to Jim Amash that, circa 1940, he had drawn a one-page super-hero parody called “Vita-Man,” so naturally Jim hounded the poor guy till he sent us a copy of this never-published piece. It came with a note from Murphy: “WARNING! View enclosed at your peril! Definitely not for the faint of heart! …unless you have a very low brow!” Don’t be so hard on yourself, Murphy. It would’ve fit nicely in any number of 1940s comics! (For Murphy’s “Time Traveler” and other amateur strips he used as samples, see R.C. Harvey’s Anderson tome.) [©2005 Murphy Anderson.]

Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights

(Above left:) This two-panel half-page of Hourman, Dr. Fate, and Solomon Grundy by Murphy Anderson is repro’d from a photocopy of the original art to the classic Showcase #55 (March-April 1965), courtesy of Mike W. Barr & Tom Horvitz.

One of those was “The Time Traveler,” and years later, I got into big discussions about him with Julie. He was a science-fiction superhero type of character who could travel back and forth in time. That was his power: he could leave a disaster and come back at a more opportune time. JA: You told me once that when they brought back Black Canary, you suggested she be an African-American woman. Was that suggestion made for this particular incarnation? ANDERSON: Yes, a black singer. I made the suggestion while they were discussing her revival... before anything was plotted, but Julie didn’t like the idea. He didn’t think the time was right for it. Julie was “Black Canary’s” original editor [in the 1940s], and he may have been attached to the character just as she was. He also knew the people in the front office wouldn’t go for it, because they were worried about how the idea would be received in the South. JA: Were the covers done before the stories? ANDERSON: I think so. Julie picked the villains, like The Huntress and Sportsmaster for the Starman/Black Canary team-up. He wanted to use those old characters, so we came up with a cover that would show their powers off. Then for Doctor Fate/Hourman, he wanted to use Solomon Grundy. He also had Green Lantern in that story, and Wildcat in one of the Starman/Black Canary stories. He wanted to feature as many of those characters as he could in cameo appearances, or whatever it took to drag them in. Julie wanted to revive these characters, not in their older guises, but as updated characters. JA: So you think it was Julie’s idea to do these team-ups, rather than the front office?

(Above:) Some years back, Murphy sketched this Solomon Grundy head for Tom Watkins, who has “worked on film and TV crews as a ‘property man’ or set dresser for close to thirty years.” Thanks for sharing it, Tom! (Below:) Splash page from the first “Starman and Black Canary” full-lengther, in The Brave and the Bold #61 (Sept. 1965). [Published art ©2005 DC Comics; Grundy head art ©2005 Murphy Anderson; Solomon Grundy TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]

ANDERSON: I had a little influence on him, but we’d just toss ideas around, accept them or reject them. I always liked Hourman, though I never had a great feeling for The Green Lantern. The concept of Green Lantern wasn’t science-fictiony; it was kind of magic. The Dr. Fate concept was a little different: it wasn’t magic, it was mysticism. That was more interesting. I’d always liked the Dr. Fate character, and I liked Hourman. When I was a kid, I had a little character I was trying to do in a kind of Jack Cole style, just as a filler page. I designed him to be Vita-Man. He would size up a crime that was happening, and then he would take vitamin so-and-so... BXQ4 or something. He would swallow a pill and then take off after the bad guys. JA: When you were doing the teamups, did you research the old stories? ANDERSON: Well, Julie and Gardner Fox researched them, and they may have used some of my old books, I’m not sure. They had their own copies of the comics. JA: How do you think Gardner Fox felt about those characters? ANDERSON: Gardner was hard to read. I don’t know how much he enjoyed doing comics, but he was a workman and gave everything his best shot. He might not have liked them particularly; I don’t know. He never intended to get into comics, but Vin Sullivan was a boyhood

A Brief Talk With Golden/Silver Age All-Star Murphy Anderson liked the concept of the character, and so did I. Of course, I took the job with Will Eisner while I was still waiting for a decision on The Spectre. Julie and I decided that I couldn’t do two books—even though they were bi-monthlies—while I was working for Eisner, so he decided to drop Hawkman. That’s when Murray Boltinoff took Hawkman over, and Julie started The Spectre so I would have a bi-monthly magazine. I was happy with that decision, because I would rather have drawn The Spectre than Hawkman. Besides, doing the special effects and backgrounds on The Spectre was faster and more fun than doing modern, present-day stuff.

I preferred drawing The Spectre because of the workload: not only did Hawkman have wings, but he had a wife who had wings, and they [chuckle] went around together a great deal, which complicated things. I never really cared for doing mob scenes; that was one of the drawbacks of doing “The Atomic Knights.” You had six different people wearing six different suits of armor. When the decision was made that two of the Knights would be brothers, I said, “Julie, if they’re brothers, couldn’t they be twin brothers?”

friend—they went to school together and kept in touch—and Vin asked Gardner to come to work for him. JA: “The Spectre” was one of my favorite series of yours, and kind-of a departure from your other work. ANDERSON: Julie and I had a lot of fun talking about those stories, because he brought in aspects that Jerry Siegel [co-creator and writer] never thought about. Julie drew inspiration from some of the master writers of the pulp field, and used some concepts out of their fiction. JA: I’m looking at the Showcase cover where you have Starman and Black Canary fighting The Mist. Were you looking at [Starman cocreator and artist] Jack Burnley for that, particularly in how you delineated The Mist? ANDERSON: Yes. I liked Burnley’s stuff, and wanted to keep the feeling that Starman was different from Superman. Except for the headgear and the colors, Starman and Superman were virtually the same character, perhaps because Burnley had been doing a lot of Superman before Starman. JA: Your approach to “The Spectre” is somewhat different from your approach to “Atomic Knights,” because the themes were different. ANDERSON: Actually, Julie and I both liked Virgil Finlay and two or three other science-fiction pulp artists, and Julie would always say, “Give me a Finlay effect; give me a Finlay monster”... that sort of thing. So I’d usually pull out the fins and the finned ears to make them look different. JA: Both of the Showcase Spectre covers are very striking; especially issue #61, with the villain hitting The Spectre over the head with the planet Earth. ANDERSON: That was Julie’s idea. I can’t take credit for that. JA: DC must have known rather quickly that the “Spectre” features in Showcase did well, because he got his own series shortly afterwards. ANDERSON: I think Julie was going to give him his own series, even if he didn’t sell particularly well. I don’t know how well they sold. He

“Not only did Hawkman have wings, but he had a wife who had wings!” Hey, but we loved the way you drew them, Murphy, as per this page from Hawkman #12 (Feb.-March 1966). Thanks to Shane Foley for sending us b&w copies of much of this issue, taken from an Australian reprint. [©2005 DC Comics.]

The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s

part seven

“I Jumped At The Opportunity!” RICH BUCKLER Talks To A Longtime Collaborator About The All-Star Squadron Interview Conducted by Roy Thomas

Transcribed by Brian K. Morris

/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Rich Buckler entered the comic book field in 1970 with black-&-white work for Warren Publications, but soon moved on to DC and Marvel, where at one time or another over the years he drew virtually every super-hero that ever was. I distinctly recall that the art samples he showed me at Marvel circa 1971 dealt with a “wild man of the jungle” story and was an amalgamation of an illustrative Al Williamson-style approach with Kirbyesque dynamics—and thus had some of the same appeal of the work of Neal Adams. At Marvel he and I worked together on various series, including the final three issues of my 70-issue run of The Avengers in 1972—several fun tales of the Fantastic Four—and even one story for Conan the Barbarian! When I signed a contract with DC in 1980 and began to develop All-Star Squadron as one of my first projects there, I was fortunate in having Rich as artist—though not for nearly as long as I’d have liked. In my various installments of “All-Star Squadron Chronicles” in A/E, I’ve unavoidably talked about Rich Buckler—so I figured it was high time I talked, on the record, with the artist I Rich Buckler, in a recent photo— nicknamed “Rich ‘Swash’ Buckler.” —Roy.

with (below) the BucklerGiordano art that became the “interior cover” of the 16-page All-Star Squadron Preview included as a free insert in Justice League of America #193, and (right) their cover for All-Star Squadron #1 (Sept. 1981), minus most wordage. Read below how these two pages were probably originally intended for their opposite numbers. [Art ©2005 DC Comics.]

ROY THOMAS: You and I had worked together before we did All-Star Squadron in 1980. I think we generally liked collaborating, but I don’t have any recollection of having had any major input on artist choices at that stage. I’m curious if you remember how you happened to get the job. Did [editor] Len

Wein call you? RICH BUCKLER: I don’t remember exactly. It might have been Len, or it might have been Paul Levitz, but I jumped at the opportunity! I always like working with you. RT: Of course, for all I remember, Len and I may have kicked around artists’ names, and if we did, yours would’ve come up. Anyway—I’ve always had this vague memory that the drawing that was used as the cover of All-Star Squadron #1—the one with Hawkman, Dr. Mid-Nite, and The Atom leaning over the table with all the hero photos on it—was originally supposed to be the “inside cover” of the 16-page free Preview that would be inserted in Justice League of America #193—and that the drawing you did of the entire JSA charging towards the reader was to be the cover of All-Star Squadron #1—but that they got switched around, probably by Len. BUCKLER: Yeah, I remember that vaguely, too. I remember having trouble drawing the one that was for the Preview, because it involved the Capitol Building, and it was a lot of work to do. [chuckles] I didn’t really want to do that one.

Rich Buckler Talks About The All-Star Squadron about the two covers, and he responded: “To the best of my recollection, the table cover was my idea, and I believe the ‘changing covers’ [i.e., switching which would go on the Preview in JLA #193, and which on All-Star Squadron #1] was yours. I think we may have toyed with the idea of switching them at some point, but, like you, I really love the table shot and am glad we went with it.” Thanks, Len. —Roy.] BUCKLER: Well, there were a lot of characters! [Roy laughs] You sent me a couple of boxes of photocopied research, which was tremendously helpful. I don’t own all of these books. I remember you saying that cover with the photos might be “too much work,” but I was just willing to throw myself into it. RT: Because I conceived All-Star Squadron as a combination of new stories, adaptations of Golden Age tales, and events from actual World War II history, I sent you lots of reference—not just for #1, but over those five-plus issues you did, a fair amount of reference material—even books and so forth. Did you ever feel kind-of overwhelmed by it? Some artists I’ve worked with resented being asked to do “research”—by which was generally meant just opening the books or paging through the material I sent them. BUCKLER: I really appreciated it. Actually, I’m a research nut. In fact,

“Well, there were a lot of characters!” says Rich—and no one would dispute the point. This Buckler-Ordway chapter splash from All-Star Squadron #3 (Nov. 1981) depicts twelve heroes—counting Johnny Thunder’s Thunderbolt and Danette Reilly, soon to be the new Firebrand—converging on the still-smoking ruins of Pearl Harbor. The date is December 8, 1941, the day after the Imperial Japanese attack that Degaton’s treachery had kept the JSA from preventing. Script by Roy Thomas. Repro’d from a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of Rick Shurgin. [©2005 DC Comics.]

RT: I would have thought the other one with all the “photos” would’ve been harder. BUCKLER: No, no. That one was a pure pleasure. RT: Who came up with the layout? Was it Len’s idea, then you did the exact layout? BUCKLER: I remember it as your idea. RT: Mine? BUCKLER: For some reason, I remember speaking to you on the phone about it. RT: I would love to think that it was—[laughs]—since that’s one of my all-time favorite covers on any comic that I wrote. The only thing wrong with those covers—which I later had you correct on the two re-creations you did for me—was that, somehow, on both of them, Starman got left off in favor of other characters. For instance, The Shining Knight was in the “charging” scene, as if he’d been a member of the JSA, which he never was. But that was minor. [NOTE: As this issue of A/E was in preparation, I e-mailed Len Wein

This Buckler-penciled, Ordway-inked, Thomas-scripted fact page features JSA foe Per Degaton—whose second past-altering plot was the linchpin of All-Star Squadron #1-3—appeared in issue #2. His first, of course, had been in All-Star Comics #35 in 1947. When Degaton had returned in the first Injustice Society tale, in All-Star #37, there were several discrepancies with his appearance only four months earlier, so Roy set the 1981 story in between those two epics, and had fun reconciling them. Repro’d from a photocopy of the original art, from Roy’s personal collection. [©2005 DC Comics.]

“I Jumped At The Opportunity!”

37 me like a Wally Wood influence and I thought, “Oh, that’s good.” Len showed it to me and said, “Don’t worry. The guy’s really good.” And it wouldn’t be the first time I worked with someone new or even broke that person in. RT: At one time you had newcomers like George Pérez and Arvell Jones and Craig Russell and different people working with you.

BUCKLER: Right— and Jim Lee. I remember when we did some independent publishing, we published Jim Lee’s first work. I’ve always been open to new people. And in Jerry Ordway’s case, it was a delightful surprise.

Rich says he especially liked drawing Johnny Thunder and The Shining Knight, both seen with their unique modes of transportation on the preceding page—as well as Robotman, shown here in the Buckler-Ordway splash from All-Star Squadron #3, and Liberty Belle, whom they depicted in this pin-up. Also shown on the splash, of course, are Hawkman, Johnny Quick, and Per Degaton; it’s repro’d from a photocopy of the original art, provided by Jerry K. Boyd. Thanks to Jerry Ordway for the 1981 Liberty Belle art. The latter was printed in All-Star Squadron #10 (June ’82): no crack was added to the bell sigil (since the crack hadn’t appeared in her 1940s adventures in Boy Commandos and Star Spangled Comics), although it had been added in the 1980s stories, starting with Squadron #2. But Roy did have Rich & Jerry give Belle a mask, which she lacked in the ’40s tales. [©2005 DC Comics.]

I remember that, when I worked with you on Captain America: The Medusa Effect, one of the main characters was Nikola Tesla. I didn’t know who Tesla was before that. After that, I became so interested that I got everything I could that was printed on him. I had a few of the black-&-white reprint comics from that time, on my own. They helped me get into the feel, the flavor of the ’40s. And also, I think I had a lot of reprints of newspaper strip art from around that time. RT: I felt that, if I was going to ask somebody to draw this comic book that’s almost like a tapestry or a mosaic of early DC history, I’d better be the one who does most of the legwork on it. I figured you were doing enough just to draw it. BUCKLER: Well, it wasn’t enough just to draw it. For me, it was necessary to capture the flavor of that time period, too, so I worked hard on that—and at the same time to make it a comic for the ’80s, new and fresh and exciting. RT: That was a tightrope we were always walking. So what were you expecting when Jerry Ordway, as a newcomer, was assigned to ink the book? BUCKLER: I had no idea who he was. I saw some of what looked to

RT: My recollection is that, when you drew Degaton, who’d been in two issues of All-Star Comics, I was surprised because you drew him six feet tall, and he’d always been drawn as very short. Were you instructed to make Degaton taller? BUCKLER: I don’t remember. I think probably I was concentrating on the storytelling and characterizing him as imposing a figure as possible. RT: When you did a “Fact File” pin-up of Degaton, his proportions are more like a guy 5’4” at most. By that time, we’d got it straight, and the copy reflected his correct height. BUCKLER: I made sure that The Atom was short! RT: Degaton was a Napoleon type in military garb. Were there any characters, either the JSA or heroes we brought in from other DC and Quality comics, that you particularly liked—or hated—to draw? Johnny Quick or Liberty Belle or Robotman… BUCKLER: Johnny Quick was a favorite of mine. I just liked that whole relationship where it’s two characters in one, and—no, I’m sorry, not Johnny Quick. Johnny Thunder. RT: Johnny Thunder? We didn’t do much with him. BUCKLER: But I liked him. He was sort-of like the Captain MarvelBilly Batson thing. Robotman was also one of my favorites. And Shining Knight—I love drawing guys on flying horses. RT: [laughs] Yeah, there’s so many of them. Years later, of course, we worked on The Black Knight at Marvel together, too. What about Liberty Belle, who had that weird outfit? BUCKLER: Ah, I loved Liberty Belle. RT: Really? Despite the jodhpurs and all that? That was kind-of unusual. She was like this cross between a strong Barbara Stanwyck and, in her solo stories in the 1940s, Veronica Lake with her peekaboo hair style. BUCKLER: Yeah, and it was hard to get her to look right at the right angle for the different shots, and I worked at it because I liked the different look.

The All-Stars: From The ’40s to the ’80s

part eight

“You Put Me Through My Paces!” JERRY ORDWAY On Working With MIKE MACHLAN & ROY THOMAS On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc. Interview Conducted by Roy Thomas Via E-Mail

/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Has it really been thirty issues—pushing three years—since the first part of this interview, titled “Inking Comics the ORDway,” appeared in Alter Ego #14? Clearly, super-heroes aren’t the only thing that flies when you’re having a good time. Back then, Jerry spoke of how, in 1980, he landed his first pro assignment under editor Len Wein: All-Star Squadron. That part of this interview dealt with Jerry’s inking Rich Buckler’s pencils in the Preview insert in Justice League of America #193 and in the five issues Rich drew of the regular Squadron series. This second segment covers both his remaining stint on the comic, and how he segued over to the new Infinity, Inc. title. As the writer and co-creator of both those series, it was a pleasure to work with Jerry on them, and to re-live those halcyon days in this interview. —Roy.

(Above:) Jerry Ordway with his three children, Rachel, Thomas, and James (the youngest). Jerry’s wife, Peggy May Ordway, worked as marketing & publicity director for DC Comics from 1985-90. Photo by his mother-law, Mr. Pat Donath. A family affair! (Below:) Jerry drew this panoramic twopage spread for the “All-Star Squadron” entry in Who’s Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe #1 (March 1985). Of course, it depicts only a fraction of the actual membership, especiallly before Crisis on Infinite Earths thinned the ranks by a half dozen or so heroes by 1986. Repro’d from a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of Jerry Ordway. [©2005 DC Comics.]

ROY THOMAS: How did you feel about Adrian Gonzales, who replaced Rich starting with AllStar Squadron #6? JERRY ORDWAY: Adrian did a respectable job, though Len’s first comments to me indicated that he thought I would abandon the book when Rich did. I was too new to realize that was the way the game was played. I wasn’t going anywhere, as I would’ve honored my 12-issue contract, anyway.

Jerry Ordway On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc. ORDWAY: I inked most of it on a lightbox, working from stats of an already-inked job, from the Cancelled Comic Cavalcade. You cut and pasted that job and wrote a framing sequence that Adrian Gonzales drew. I didn’t want to ink on vellum this time, as my last such experience [on All-Star Squadron #1] had been a nightmare, so I went all-out and redrew it on board, and had fun with the zip-a-tone. Years later, at a DC Christmas party, I met Don Heck, and he told me how much he liked it, so that was gratifying. RT: With #7 I just began referring to you and Gonzales in the credits as the “artists,” rather than penciler and inker or embellisher. Did you ask for the change, do you recall? ORDWAY: I’m sure I was relentless with Len in getting credit I thought was due. Remember, DC kept stringing me along about getting penciling work, and I felt I had a lot to prove, so I was pretty touchy about that. I found that, as we went along, I was asked to redraw more and more panels per issue, so I guess that was good therapy for the penciler in me, too. RT: You did an intended cover for All-Star Squadron #11 with that “alien” facing the heroes, but it wasn’t used. (Joe Kubert did that cover, too.) I used your drawing as a pin-up later. Had you just done that possible cover on your own, or had you worked it out with Len?

This action page, inked and finished by Jerry Ordway, is from All-Star Squadron #6 (Feb. 1982), the first issue with pencil breakdowns by Adrian Gonzales. Repro’d from a photocopy of the (autographed) original art, courtesy of Michael Dunne. [©2005 DC Comics.]

RT: Weren’t Adrian’s pencils looser than Rich’s? Did Len and/or I have you doing even more changes? ORDWAY: Adrian was doing more traditional layouts, I guess. They had more structure than much of what Rich did, but had no mood or lighting indicated. As for changes, there were a fair amount asked for, but I liked what the guy did. I also guess, at that point I had become the more important part of the art team, as you and Len looked to me to keep the artwork consistent with the previous five issues. RT: At this point you began inking the covers, as well, including Rich’s final one on #6. ORDWAY: I was ready by then, I think, and enjoyed it a lot. Hawkman looked like your favorite Kubert version on that one! RT: How did you feel about the Joe Kubert covers that began again with #7? ORDWAY: I was torn, really, because they were great covers, and I’m a huge fan of Joe’s, but I really wanted the whole book to have my stamp on it artistically. I understood Len’s thinking, though. RT: You also inked the Don Heck-penciled “Steel” episodes that I tossed in from his canceled title. How was Don to ink?

Jerry’s first attempt at an All-Star Squadron cover was this sterling art, done for issue #11 (July 1982). It saw print four years later as a color pin-up in All-Star Squadron #65. Repro’d from a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of J.O. [©2005 DC Comics.]

“You Put Me Through My Paces!”

The pages of All-Star Squadron #8-9 which featured a solo flashback starring Steel, the Indestructible Man, were left over from the never-published 6th issue of that hero’s own title, which had fallen victim to the so-called “DC Implosion” of 1978. That tale (splash at left), by Gerry Conway (script), Don Heck (pencils), and Joe Giella (inks), was one of numerous stories distributed to a small, select audience in two house-assembled volumes of Cancelled Comic Cavalcade. Roy liked the notion of adding a “Captain America type” to the All-Stars; thus, with Gerry’s blessing and editor Len Wein’s okay, that unused “Steel” story was serialized over two issues of the new mag, re-inked by Jerry Ordway since the photocopies in CCC were less than pristine. The two new panels at the top of the Squadron page (right) were drawn by Gonzales and Ordway, and written by Roy T. (By the way, that’s British Prime Minister Winston Churchill smoking the cigar in panel 2.) Roy, however, didn’t care much for the name “Steel” by itself, so at the end of #9 he promoted the hero to “Commander Steel”—and thus he remained for the rest of the series. [©2005 DC Comics.]

ORDWAY: I just did it, I think, when I was inking the interiors of the book—I’m sure, with your blessing. I sent it in, only to find that Kubert had already turned in a cover for that issue. I was trying to break out of the inker’s rut, and never expected to get paid for it when it wasn’t needed, though you did use it later and I was paid then. RT: You skipped one issue—#13, which was inked by Mike DeCarlo. Remember why? Perhaps because you were working on the All-Star Squadron Annual around that time? ORDWAY: Yes, it was a big job, that one, and also another favorite story of mine that you wrote. I really worked over Adrian’s layouts on that! I think it holds up well, if I say so myself. RT: I agree with you. In the Annual, you did a pin-up of The Guardian and The Newsboy Legion [see p. 3]. Was this Len’s idea, or yours? ORDWAY: I think Len threw that to me as a bone, to appease me. I did the cover of that one, as well, pencils and inks. They gave me an Ed Hannigan sketch to work from, and I recall totally finishing it, and then not being satisfied with it, as I was just fighting the layout. Ed’s cover sketches were great, and you could basically just blow them up and ink them on a lightbox, but again, at this time, I was trying to prove myself,

so I did another version, veering more from Ed’s layout, and sent them both in. I’m pretty sure, thinking back on it, that Len used the second one I did [see next page]. I felt I was getting somewhere! I got to do a cover! RT: All-Star Squadron #14-15 were part of 1981’s JLA-JSA crossover. Was this the first time you’d worked on the JLA? ORDWAY: Yes, in comic book form. I had drawn them before in fan drawings, and also a coloring/activity book for Golden Books. That had led to my getting work from DC a few years later. RT: In #16-18 Adrian was inked by Rick Hoberg—then you returned in #19 doing full pencils and inks. Were you off All-Star Squadron for three issues so you could pencil #19? If so, I must’ve done one plot way ahead of time. ORDWAY: Well, essentially, you plotted ahead on #19, and then wrote #16-18 while I was toiling away on the pencils. I needed the lead time, as the book was running pretty late, and Len didn’t want me starting behind the eight-ball, deadline-wise. I needed that time, too, because I was pretty rusty storytelling-wise, after all that inking. RT: How did you get Len to give you a shot at penciling the book?

Jerry Ordway On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc. inker later, with sketchy or vague pencils. RT: You both penciled and inked #19-20, the story in which all the All-Stars seemed to die in their dreams. Any particular thoughts about it? ORDWAY: Well, I ate up my lead time, discovering I couldn’t pencil and ink on a monthly schedule! I had a lot of fun drawing Electro, the robot from the Fair. Also, DC stuck pretty close to the color guides I did for those two covers. It was an emotional story, and I didn’t want to cheat the readers, so I threw everything I had into it. RT: I’ve always felt the covers for both those issues were extraordinary. Were you happy to finally be doing covers? (What happened to the original art, by the way? Do you still have photocopies of any covers or interior art?)

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Was Adrian leaving of his own accord at the time, or did you force the issue? ORDWAY: Well, as I stated, DC was giving me the runaround on penciling assignments. While inking All-Star, I started inking the “Huntress” back-up feature in Wonder Woman. Joe Staton was penciling it, and I was told he was leaving in a few issues. Well, I inked two, and then a third, and I asked what was going on, and then had a chance to talk with Staton, who said he wasn’t going anywhere—he loved doing “The Huntress.” I felt burned. Anyhow, I guess Ernie Colón, who was editing Flash at the time, heard my plight and offered me an 8-page “Creeper” back-up, pencils and inks. I decided that, if I didn’t take that, I’d never get a chance to move up again. I called Len and quit All-Star. He asked me why, and I told him. He then shot back at me, “Why don’t you pencil All-Star, instead?” I was flabbergasted. I told him I didn’t want to bump Adrian off the book, as that was unfair. Len said he would switch Adrian to Arak and keep him busy. I thought about it a second, and said yes. [NOTE: Arak, Son of Thunder was a sword-and-sorcery title that my wife Dann and I had created at the same time I’d started All-Star Squadron. —Roy.] RT: I must’ve sent you lots of reference about the 1939-40 New York World’s Fair, since in #19 you drew the Four Freedoms statues, Electro the Robot, the Trylon and Perisphere, etc. ORDWAY: You did send me a lot of reference, but I had the shots of the Four Freedoms in the 1930s volume of Time-Life’s This Fabulous Century series, which I’d been using for reference on period detail anyway. RT: You had a lot of heroes to draw in #19, since there are a half a dozen or so All-Stars—then eight members of the JSA in captivity. How hard was it to pencil a book like All-Star Squadron? ORDWAY: It was a trial by fire, that’s for sure! I have always been a scribbler as a penciler, preferring to finish the drawing in ink. I had to learn on the job to pencil tightly, so that I wouldn’t torture some poor

ALTER EGO #44 JSA/All-Star Squadron/Infinity Inc. special! Interviews with KUBERT, HASEN, ANDERSON, ORDWAY, BUCKLER, THOMAS, 1940s Atom writer ARTHUR ADLER, art by TOTH, SEKOWSKY, HASEN, MACHLAN, OKSNER, and INFANTINO, FCA, and MR. MONSTER’S “I Like Ike!” cartoons by BOB KANE, INFANTINO, OKSNER, and BIRO! Wraparound ORDWAY cover! (100-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95 US Jerry still has photocopies of several pages of Adrian Gonzales’ pencil layouts for All-Star Squadron #18 (Feb. 1983)—ironically, an issue inked by Rick Hoberg, while Jerry was busy working on #19, his first penciling effort. #18 introduced readers to Tarantula, who in the 1940s sported a costume nighidentical to Sandman’s purple-and-yellow togs. The hammer-wielding villain is “Fairytales” Fenton, a.k.a. “The Villain from Valhalla,” who’d debuted as a fake Thor in Simon & Kirby’s “Sandman” tale in Adventure Comics #75 (June 1942). We’d show you a Simon & Kirby “Thor” page, or even the finished page by Gonzales/Hoberg—but we’ve gotta hold something back for our extended coverage of the Golden Age roots of All-Star Squadron in the trade paperback All-Star Companion, Vol. 2, due out later this year! [©2005 DC Comics.]