Comic Book Creator #18 by TwoMorrows Publishing

™

$9.95

Nexus TM & © Steve Rude & Mike Baron, The Moth TM & © Steve Rude

in the USA

STEVE RUDE A DAY IN THE LIFE OF THE DUDE Contains mild nudity for figure-drawing demonstration; suggested for Mature Readers Only

82658 00317

Cover art by Steve Rude

also: MARY FLEENER • NEAL ADAMS’ JUNGLE MAN • RICH BUCKLER

Summer 2018 • The Steve Rude Issue • Number 18

Ye Ed’s Rant: A Day in the Life of the Dude and Goodbye, Mr. D.................................... 2 WOODY IN SUMMER CBC mascot by J.D. KING

About Our Cover Art by STEVE RUDE

Nexus TM & © Mike Baron & Steve Rude. The Moth TM & © Steve Rude.

Colors by GLENN WHITMORE

COMICS CHATTER Cubismo Cartoonist: Part one of CBC’s chat with the great alternative cartoonist Mary Fleener, on her development and the rock’n’roll influence on her work............ 3 Incoming: Missives on CBC and Power on the Bob TV show and the King o’ Pop........ 18 Lord of the Jungle Man: Gary Buckingham talks with Neal Adams about his evocative Tarzan cover paintings for the 1970s Ballantine paperback series.......... 22 Ten Questions: Mike “The Badger” Baron is quizzed by Darrick Patrick....................... 30 Rich Buckler’s Deathlok Days: Part two of Michael Aushenker’s interview with the late comics artist, this one all about his renowned “Demolisher” creation...... 32 Comics in the Library: Rich Arndt makes his latest suggestions for kids’ comics....... 40 Hembeck’s Dateline: Our Man Fred recalls Blackhawk’s “Junk Heap Heroes”........... 41 THE MAIN EVENT

Above: Steve Rude renders his greatest co-creation, Nexus, and solo creation The Moth for a cover that also features the artist’s studies and warm-up sketches as background. These routine exercises reveal not only a remarkably disciplined creative mind, but serve as evidence of the great illustrators and art instructors who have invoked a tremendous influence on The Dude, very prominently the author of Figure Drawing for All It’s Worth, Andrew Loomis, the great 20th century illustrator.

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Steve Rude’s Awakening: A Day in the Life of The Dude. The co-creator of Nexus and one of comics’ finest adventure artists suggests Ye Editor visit his Arizona studio, and thus ensues an unconventional and fascinating interview that reveals a typical day in the artist’s life. Whether sitting around the Rude living room, eating lunch at Red Robin, or during a workout at LA Fitness, hours of insightful conversation revolve around the work of his greatest artistic influences and the self-imposed obstacles facing all too many pro artists, along with myriad other subjects, some distinctly personal. The whirlwind day-long trip ends with a one-on-one session of art instruction conducted by the idiosyncratic, intensely contemplative comic book artist to reveal the creative processes behind his drawing and approach to creation. Join us as CBC abides with The Dude ............. 44 BACK MATTER Creators at the Con: Kendall Whitehouse chronicles copious convention chuckles...... 94 Creator’s Creators: Darrick Patrick, CBC’s newest contributor, shares about his life..... 95 Coming Attractions: Next up is our fabulous Frank Frazetta tribute issue!.................... 95 A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words: Kevin O’Neill’s Metalzoic art!..................... 96 Right: A detail of Steve Rude’s cover painting for The Nexus Omnibus Vol. 3 [2013], featuring his most revered creation, that interstellar executioner of human mass murderers co-created by Mike Baron.

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COMIC BOOK CREATOR is a proud joint production of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows

Comic Book Creator ™ is published quarterly by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Dr., Raleigh, NC 27614 USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Jon B. Cooke, editor. John Morrow, publisher. Comic Book Creator editorial offices: P.O. Box 601, West Kingston, RI 02892 USA. E-mail: jonbcooke@aol.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Four-issue subscriptions: $43 US, $66 International, $20 Digital. All characters are © their respective copyright owners. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter ©2018 Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. Comic Book Creator is a TM of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. ISSN 2330-2437. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING.

Nexus TM & © Mike Baron & Steve Rude.

This issue is dedicated to the memories of HARLAN ELLISON and STEVE DITKO ™

JON B. COOKE Editor & Designer

JOHN MORROW Publisher & Consulting Editor

MICHAEL AUSHENKER Associate Editor

STEVE RUDE Cover Artist

GLENN WHITMORE Cover Colorist

RICHARD J. ARNDT Contributing Editor

STEVEN THOMPSON STEVEN TICE BRIAN K. MORRIS Transcribers

TOM ZIUKO CBC Colorist Supreme

RONN SUTTON CBC Illustrator

ROB SMENTEK CBC Proofreader

GREG PRESTON CBC Contributing Photographer

KENDALL WHITEHOUSE CBC Convention Photographer

RICHARD J. ARNDT MICHAEL AUSHENKER FRED HEMBECK DARRICK PATRICK TOM ZIUKO CBC Columnists To contact CBC, please email jonbcooke@aol.com or snail-mail CBC, P.O. Box 601, West Kingston, RI 02892 2

Ye Crusading Editor’s whirlwind trip to the House of Rude

more of the questioner’s life experiences than you’re accustomed to (or might want to ever know!). We hope that you, dear reader, have an open mind about the atypical back-&-forth and, even better, that you might gain insight into one of the finest adventure artists in the realm of comic books. If anything, my intense examination into the creative processes of The Dude has filled me with a much greater appreciation for the man’s incredible talent, which is simply magnificent. Don’t get me wrong: like so many, many others, I’ve always been enamored with Steve Rude’s artwork ever since seeing it in early issues of Nexus and (especially) when he teamed with writer Mark Evanier to produce the delightful and reverent Mister Miracle Special in the latter ’80s. At times his style evokes the stalwart excellence of Russ Manning at his best, and other times the stuff is infused with the bombastic energy of Jack Kirby. And, then, somehow the influence of Alex Toth is evoked! Yet the material is unequivocally the work of a single, living creator as unique as any of those greats. Needless to say, his work is During the summer solstice breathtakingly better than ever. that just passed, yours truly had Steve Rude by Ronn Sutton Special thanks to Steve and the privilege to visit this issue’s especially to his wife, Jaynelle, for hosting my visit, and featured subject in his Arizona environs and, at Steve a grateful tip o’ the CBC hat to Steve Ringgenberg for Rude’s request, share in “A Day in the Life of the Dude.” driving yours truly to the Rude hacienda. It was an immersive experience — to say the least! — (Alas, the epic Frank Borth interview could not fit as interviewer and interviewee spent 12 hours together, into this issue, so please look for it in the near future!) starting with a chat in the Rude living room (attended by comics historian Steve Ringgenberg, who will be my As for the near future, we’ll be taking the rest of co-editor for next issue’s Frank Frazetta extravaganza, the summer to finish up the insanely comprehensive, and is Rude’s closest buddy in the Phoenix area), on decade-plus in the making retrospective on R. Crumb’s to lunch at a local chain restaurant, then an hour-andfabled comics anthology, The Book of Weirdo, which a-half workout at a nearby gym, and finally hours of (the publisher tells us) is the headline release for the dialogue and instruction in The Dude’s roomy studio, Last Gasp Spring 2019 catalog! We couldn’t be more probably the “meat” of this whirlwind journey. excited about the comprehensive overview of this imSo, fair warning to CBC ’s beloved readership: The portant humor magazine, which is as much a history of epic conversation within is a pretty darn unconvention- alternative comics in the 1980s as anything. Legendary al one and it is decidedly not the typical chronological caricaturist Drew Friedman has contributed a dynaforay into a creator’s life. Far be it. Expect to learn the mite cover illustration (see pg.19) and there are new artist’s super-charged opinions on any number of subcontributions by a whole menagerie of creative weirdos jects and for parameters of the dialogue to reach far along with testimonials from 120+ of the mag’s contribubeyond the typical framework and infused with perhaps tors. So, remember: when the going gets Weirdo… Just as yours truly was completing this ish, word comes that Steve Ditko has passed from this mortal plane. With all due respect, I have never quite understood Ditko’s stance on not sharing his life story with a community intensely curious about the man himself. You need to understand that, in comics fandom, scoring an interview with the Spider-Man co-creator was the equivalent of capturing the “Great White Whale”… or finding the Holy Grail, if you will. We had so many, many questions. And, along with a legion of other correspondents, I wrote letter upon letter to the man, asking his consent to be interviewed. True to the end, the artist never wavered. Now, barring any posthumous release of an autobiography or career-spanning Q&A, Ditko will have his wish and it will be through his work where we may find answers about the enigmatic comic book creator. Godspeed, Mr. D.

cbc contributors Neal Adams Richard J. Arndt Michael Aushenker Mike Baron Gregory Biga Gary Buckingham Rich Buckler

Lionel Carrez Andrew Cheverton Shaun Clancy Mike Conran Michael Eury Fantagraphics Mary Fleener

Drew Friedman Matthew Howard Fred Hembeck Heritage Auctions Michael Jones Brian Kane Mike Manley

—Y e Crusading Editor jonbcooke@aol.com

Kelvin Mao Darrick Patrick Greg Preston Steve Ringgenberg Jaynelle Rude Steve Rude Cory Sedlmeier

Ronn Sutton Steven E. Tice The Time Capsule Kendall Whitehouse Glenn Whitmore Rob Yeremian Tom Ziuko

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

J.D. KING CBC Cartoonist

A Day in the Life…

cubismo cartoonist

A History of Fleener Part one of CBC ’s chat with the longtime artist and comics’ newest graphic novelist Interview conducted by JON B. COOKE CBC Editor

Portrait photography © Greg Preston. Billie the Bee © Mary Fleener.

[With the coming of her very first graphic novel, Billie the Bee (due early next year from Fantagraphics), CBC finally has a timely excuse to feature a two-part interview with the superb “cubismo” cartoonist, Mary Fleener. Though Ye Ed has been pals with the artist/musician since she conducted a Marie Severin interview for Comic Book Artist back in the early ’00s (as well as becoming a major participant in the comprehensive survey by yours truly of R. Crumb’s comics humor anthology, The Book of Weirdo, coming soon from Last Gasp), not enough was known about her background, so we’re delighted to remedy that in this first of a two-part talk! — Y.E.] Comic Book Creator: Hi, Mary! Mary Fleener: Hi, Jon! CBC: So, where are you from? Why don’t we talk about your early years? Mary: I was born in Los Angeles and my mother is an L.A. native, so I’m second generation. We moved to West Covina when I was a child, and then moved to West Vancouver, in British Columbia, then six years later, we moved back to the Los Angeles area. CBC: Are you an only child? Mary: No, I have a brother, Dennis, who’s seven years older than I am. He was born in 1945. CBC: What’s your mom’s name? Mary: My mother’s name is Catherine Virginia. CBC: And she’s from L.A. originally. Was she creative? She was involved with Disney, right? What’s her story? Mary: She was a child dancer in a group called the Meglin Kiddies, and some of the other little girls that were in her dance troupe were the Gumm Sisters, and the youngest of the Gumms was a girl later known as Judy Garland. The troupe would perform in the theaters back in the ’20s, before the movies would start and do a little routine. My mom was the same age as Judy — six years old. My grandmother was very talented, as well. She sewed a lot of the costumes for them. You know, they didn’t have stretchy fabric back then, so it was pretty difficult to make costumes that kids could move in, and of course, all the sequins and spangles had to be hand sewn. As she got older, she didn’t like the way she was being looked at and treated by men, because Hollywood was evil. [laughter] So she got into art and got out of dancing because it creeped her out. She’s told me some stories that were just scary and disgusting. It’s a good thing she did leave… My grandparents were always around and protected her, because they knew what it was like… you know, the stories of Fatty Arbuckle and scandals like that. I grew up hearing all these terrible stories about Hollywood because my grandfather worked for the health department, and where they lived was just a couple of blocks from where they found the Black Dahlia. CBC: Wow! Mary: Yeah! So I really have L.A. roots, you might say. CBC: Do you remember what year your mom was born? Mary: Oh, of course. She was born in 1922, and she will be 97 this January. CBC: Wow again! Mary: Yeah, I know! And after she graduated from high school, she went to Woodbury College and majored in costume design. I have all her drawings that she did from that time, with the ladies who looked like Loretta Young and Bette Davis. She was really very talented, and how she ended up at Disney was this: she married my father when Left: Mary Fleener posing for The Artist Within photographer Greg Preston. For this session, Mary appeared with cartoonists Roberta Gregory and Joyce Farmer in the latter’s studio. Inset above: The cover of Mary’s first graphic novel, Billie the Bee, to be published in February by Fantagraphics. The book is discussed in next issue’s concluding interview installment. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Portrait by Greg Preston 3

Inset right top: Mary’s mom, 1943, at age 21. This photo appears in Ink and Paint: The Women of Walt Disney’s Animation [2017] by Mindy Johnson (seen above). Inset right center: A 1942 drawing by Catherine Nunes. Mary shared, “They had sketching sessions frequently and one day they had a whole band of mariachis playing and she did this quick sketch of the conductor. Bottom: While working on The Three Caballeros, she’d often find drawings on her desk. The signature is “Jack Hunter,” who she doesn’t recall.

there are only some things she’s really clear about. My mom’s in remarkable shape. We go shopping, and she gets her vitamins — they’re on the bottom of the row — and she just bends down and picks them up. It’s remarkable she’s that clear of mind and healthy. She has a pacemaker, but she’s doing okay. CBC: What is her maiden name? Mary: Her maiden name is Nunes. My great-grandfather was Portuguese, so it was probably pronounced “noonyez” in the old country, but changed when he came here to America. CBC: And what was your dad’s name? Mary: Fleener. [laughs] CBC: I get that part, Mary. Mary: His first name was Cecil. Like Beany and Cecil. CBC: Where was he from? Mary: He’s Iowan, born on a farm with five sisters, and he got up and milked the cows at three in the morning and worked all day, and, when he was old enough to join the Navy, he got the hell out of there. I don’t know Iowa very well, but he’s always told me, “Don’t go there. You’ll hate it. It’s all flat.” They were very poor… they were very poor. I’ve seen pictures of him and his siblings sitting on a porch, dressed in plain clothes, and for Christmas they would get one orange each. That’s the only time they’d ever get an orange was once a year. I’ve seen pictures of when the locusts would come in and eat all the crops, all these bugs in the sky, and he said my grandmother would run out and try to swat them with a broom. It’s just big, black clouds of bugs just waiting to devour everything. Horrifying. CBC: The Good Earth? Mary: Yes, very much so, and my grandmother was strict Baptist, no drinking, no smoking, no dancing. But my dad’s father, he was a three-packer-a-day, didn’t go to church, probably drank a little bit, so they were opposites. That didn’t stop them from having six children. [laughs] Maybe even more, because she I think lost a few, as was pretty common back then. So my dad made it to 97. He died three years ago. CBC: And they remained married how long? Mary: Seventy-five years. CBC: That’s amazing! Mary: Yeah, it is amazing, because… there were raised voices in our household. [laughs] Let’s leave it at that! CBC: And what brought him to California? He met your mom out in L.A.? Mary: They met on a train, and she was with her mother, and they were very formal. I think the first letter he wrote her was addressed to “Miss Nunes,” and then she wrote back to “Mr. Fleener.” [laughs] She was showing me those the last time I was up there, and it was all very prim and proper like it was back then. And they went on, he courted her, and they got married and had a big Catholic Church #18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Ink and Paint: The Women of Walt Disney’s Animation © Mindy Johnson. The Three Caballeros TM & © The Disney Company. All other items © Catherine Fleener.

she was 19, and he immediately was sent over to North Africa. He got to talking with some guys he met on a train, and they worked for Disney, and he said, “I’m going off to war and my wife will be moving in with her parents and she’s going to need something to do.” So they said, “Tell her to bring her portfolio down.” She did and she got the job. But she only worked at Disney for two years, from 1941–43, because when my dad came back from the war, he showed up in a taxi with his uniform on, came to the studios, she introduced him to everybody, and then off they went to Florida. And she left her career behind, became that’s what women did: they went with their husbands, became housewives, and had children. My brother was born shortly thereafter. [laughs] It didn’t take long! And I was born seven years later. CBC: What did she do at Disney? Mary: Well, she started off as an inker and, after a month-and-a-half, she was promoted to animation department and worked with a guy named Johnny Bond. She did work on military training films, which were very top secret. In fact, I’ve got her copy of the loyalty oath she had to sign. If you divulged anything you were working on, you could get ten years in prison or a $10,000 fine! Then she was up in a little room where she would do stuff for The Three Caballeros [1944]. There she traced cels that were used in live action with animation. And it sounded like it was a great place to work. Many times, the Dixieland band, the Firehouse Five Plus Two, played in the courtyard where people had lunch. I’m not sure what the training films she worked on looked like, or what they were about, or anything like that. She doesn’t remember. At her age,

Photos © Catherine and Mary Fleener.

wedding on Santa Barbara Avenue. My mom designed and sewed her wedding dress. A classic white wedding! CBC: What did he do for work? Mary: Well, he majored in small business at the University of Southern California, through the G.I. Bill. Before that, though, he had some pretty glamorous times as a sailor. He was an assistant to an ensign and they went to the Potsdam Conference [the “Berlin Conference of the Three Heads of Government of the U.S.S.R., U.S.A. and U.K.” at the end of WWII], and he did work with President Truman for about a year at the White House. His official title was “Junior Naval Aid to the President.” He answered the President’s mail, edited his speeches, and did secretarial things. So he always talked about “that time with Truman.” Of course, we had pictures of Truman all over the house, like he was some god or something. [laughter] After my dad got his degree in business, he worked for finance companies that were very much like the show Mad Men. The same sort of politics, that same sort of time and era just like that TV show. My parents would have parties, and the ladies that would come over, all wearing fabulous outfits and furs and pearls, their husbands were so phony. Complete tyrants and bullies on the job that would do anything to get ahead, but charming as hell at these social gatherings. As a kid, I watched these martini drinking contests, and I just cringed. And then, two ulcer attacks later, he decided to go and work in another completely different business, which probably saved his life. One of his friends from USC offered him a job managing a radiator shop in L.A., so he accepted, and made them a ton of money. It also saved his life. CBC: What’s the etymology of Fleener? Mary: [Laughs] Well, it’s interesting, because every three or four years somebody writes me from out of the blue, and the last one I got was an email from somebody in Germany who said it means, literally translated, “flying leather.” And that a “Fledermaus” is a name for a bat, and I thought that was really cool. Flying leather, wow! [laughs] A man called up my dad up many years ago — he was a Navy guy, and these Navy guys, they all know each other, and once you’re a Navy guy, you’re Navy forever! — and his wife’s maiden name was Fleener, and for a little project, he thought he’d research the name. He found out there was a man named Johannes Flinner from Germany, and he came over with his wife, Anna, to America in 1754. And he was very well-educated, and then the following generations were all illiterate, so that’s why the name is spelled wither Fleener, Fleenor, or Flinner. They’re all different spellings, but, basically, we’re all related to this one guy who came over. CBC: So, from your father’s background, you’re German? Mary: I’ve seen some of the books that my dad had of the families, and it was Middle American, white, white, white, Mormons, Scotch, part Scottish, and English blood in there somewhere. Thank God I’ve got the Portuguese in me. There’s nothing like that on my dad’s side. It is vanilla. CBC: Iowa, right? [laughter] Mary: Oh, yeah! Since I had five aunts, I had a bunch of cousins, and there’s just nothing I have in common with. I’ve met and talked to them, and seem okay.

CBC: So your dad had five siblings? Mary: Yes, all girls. CBC: Did you go to family reunions? Is that where you encountered the cousins? Mary: No. Once my dad left Iowa, he never wanted to return, and had no interest in returning. We were not exactly the black sheep, but we were the “California Fleeners,” who just didn’t go out to Iowa for the reunions. And I feel like I missed out, because you really can learn a lot by meeting your relatives, and I would be interested to meet farm folk. But apparently the memories were so bad for my father and the life he lived was so hard, he didn’t want to go back at all. I only have two aunts left, and they always go, [rural accent] “When are you going to come visit us?” And I’m, “Oh, one of these days.” And then they go, “All right.” And that’s exactly how they talk. It’s not exactly a Southern accent. It’s sort of like they’re half-asleep all the time. But nice, real nice

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Above: Catherine and Cecil Fleener in a formal portrait taken in 1945. Inset left: This is how upper management of Pacific Finance blew off steam in the Mad Men era. When Mary was seven, her dad Cecil Fleener (left) performs in a dance routine to “Lollipop” by The Chordettes. Below: Mary the rocker at two or three.

Above: Mary shares about this early example of Fleener art: “This is a classic example of a dyslexic. Notice the covers of the Easter card are done neatly… or as neatly as a seven-year-old can be. Open the card, and… uh-oh!”

Above: A very young Mary Fleener with her older brother, Dennis, in 1953. The cartoonist says, “I think it’s the definitive ‘big brother’ photo, and look at me… what a ham! You can tell by the look on his face that I wasn’t camera shy!”

north, and then inland to the desert it would go east. The land barons that owned all these orchards had beautiful Victorian houses in the old part of West Covina. And then, if you got on the other side of the freeway, it was suburban sprawl, but still a lot of ranches. People had horses and goats and things like that. Where we lived was a typical middle class neighborhood, with the lawn, the driveway and the bush in the front yard. Very hot. Oh, the heat was just awful! Just awful. But, the weird thing was, there were tikis everywhere! The tiki thing was huge in West Covina. People would have the Chinese lettering on the garages, and we used to call parts of the area “tacky town” because it was so corny. And then there was this store called Akron. It was an import store, and it was the stuff that came over here from India, and Africa, and Hawaii. And so, on Sunday, everybody would go and buy all these knick-knacks, masks, and exotica decor items and it was pretty wild. Well, you know, the tiki thing is so popular right now. Well, I grew up with that. Every other house had the fishnet over the door and the floats, you know, those colored glass floats. Everybody had those in their bedrooms. So it was a weird spot. But it was just so horribly hot there. I couldn’t handle it. We fried an egg on the sidewalk once. CBC: So you were in a suburban neighborhood? Mary: Yes. The smog was so horrible. I would come home and go, “Mommy, my chest hurts.” And I started getting chronic nosebleeds from the smog. I mean, it was just awful. So when we moved, and we went to Canada, and the first time I got out of the car, I just went, “It’s cold! Oh boy!, I’m in heaven!” I did a story about this called “The Landed Immigrant Song” in Road Strips, that book that Chronicle put out that Pete Friedrich edited. It was so beautiful there. Was it Eisenhowery? Not really. You know, the newspaper had a pictures of him and Khrushchev on the front page every day, and my brother, used to ask me, “Now, who’s who?” And I couldn’t tell the difference as a little kid. I thought they both looked the same. [laughs] Anyway, when we moved to Canada, we moved to Kennedy country. Oh man, did they love Kennedy in Canada! I was there when he was assassinated — I was 13 — and they went through more mourning, I think, than the people did down here in the states. We didn’t go to school for a week. There was no radio or TV for about three or four days. But my parents didn’t like JFK. They were conservative. They were Nixonites, Reagan people. And then, in their 80s, they became radicalized and switched to the Democrats. So I don’t know what happened to them, but they changed. And it was amazing! [laughs] That they would wake up, as far as I’m concerned, in their 80s. CBC: So they were basically Reagan Republicans?

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All © Mary Fleener.

people. Very polite. CBC: Midwest nice. Mary: Yeah. And the phrase they say is, “That’s different.” I did a T-shirt for Nike, a cubismo football player on a “Just Do It” shirt in the ’90s, and those aunts of mine, they went to every department store until they found that T-shirt. [laughs] And, in Springfield, Illinois, they finally found a place that had them, and they bought them all, which I thought was very sweet. CBC: Just so I get an idea, after your father went to North Africa in 1942, but three years later he went to the Potsdam Conference. Was he still in the service while he was an adjutant to Truman? Mary: Yes, and he was asked to stay on to work for him, but he wanted to get an education, so he decided to take advantage of the G.I. Bill. But when he left North Africa, they went down to Fort Pierce, and he continued his service down there. And that’s where my mom lived, and my brother was born there, in Florida. CBC: So they got married, what, in ’44? Mary: No. They got married in 1941. CBC: So he went overseas. Did he just fall into becoming Truman’s attaché? And was Truman vice president at the time, or was he the president? Mary: I don’t remember all these details. There is a documentary called Memories of the Truman White House/ Cecil Fleener, which you can find on YouTube that has his whole story, if anyone is interested. We heard about it so much, I would tune him out, and it wasn’t until about a year before he died I started realizing that he was really in a very interesting spot during that time. I mean, isn’t that typical? You don’t appreciate your parents until you get to be as old as them. [laughs] But the documentary has all the details. CBC: What was life like when you were little? Mary: Well, when I was little we lived in West Covina, one of the first suburban bedroom communities. It’s east of Los Angeles on your way to Pomona, and it’s inland. And it was a weird place because there was the old West Covina, where there used to be tons of orange groves, and then there’s the mountains to the

All © Mary Fleener.

Mary: Yes. CBC: Wow. What is it about Orange County? I’ve never quite understood. Growing up on the East Coast, we always looked at California as being this supposed hub of liberalism… Mary: No. That’s a myth. CBC: …and yet, there are these pockets of reactionaries. It’s interesting. Mary: That is true. West Covina wasn’t considered Orange County. West Covina was a little north of that. Orange County is the area below Los Angeles, so that area up there where West Covina is L.A. County. So it’s a little different. But the problem with Orange County is it’s mostly white people, but the people, usually minorities, who do their laundry, mow their lawns, and cook their food, don’t live in their neighborhoods. So they don’t hang out with these people, or shop with them, or wait in line at the bank, or rescue stray dogs with them. Where I live, here in Encinitas, it’s so integrated, it’s a really special place. I mean, we have Mexican breakfast probably two or three times a week at these places where everybody’s speaking Spanish, and, oh my God, the World Cup game yesterday? The fact that the Mexicans beat Germany? In every restaurant you could hear screaming! It was pretty great because everybody was so excited. The oldest family on our street are from Mexico, and one of his sons is going to Yale and the other one’s going to Harvard (or maybe they’ve already graduated). Encinitas used to known as “The Flower Capitol of the World” and it’s where the Ecke family develop many species of Poinsettias, so there are generations of Mexican people that go way back because lots of people worked in the flower fields and greenhouses. Here you’re not going to see a tape of some troublemaker on YouTube attacking somebody for speaking Spanish or bullying them like you’re seeing now, this weird trend. That wouldn’t happen here. They’d get laughed out of the establishment. [laughs] Because it’s such a non-issue. But when you go up to Santa Barbara, for example, up the coast, there’s definitely one side of town for them and one side of town for the white people, and it’s pathetic. CBC: As we’re talking about this right now, Mary, probably the biggest issue that’s facing the country right now is the separation of children from their parents down at the Southern border. Is the fear or concern palpable? Do you sense that in your community? I mean, people must be upset. They’re upset here. Mary: It’s so hard to talk about. People can’t even talk! For example, at a local store there’s this great guy named Carlos. He’s worked there for five years, he’s a bike racer, he’s a great guy, everybody loves him. And he got a flat tire in Carlsbad (the city North of Encinitas), and the cops took him away, and we don’t know where he is. And we were able to raise, in our little community, $14,000 in 24 hours to help this guy. Now we hear he’s down in Otay Mesa Detention Center, and that he was here illegally, so we don’t know if we’ll ever see him again. We’re being real protective. We’re not telling the name of the store or anything because we don’t want anybody else to get in trouble, but that’s how,

that’s as close as it’s come to me. And it just, it makes me… ugh. [sighs] I don’t know, Jon. I feel helpless. What can we do? These jackasses won’t even let politicians or lawmakers in the detention centers. I think they finally got in there to see what’s going on. And then there’s the issue of the girls. Where are the girls? I mean, my God. Now I learn they are taking people’s rosaries from them! What in bloody hell does that accomplish? I was raised Catholic and even though I don’t believe in religion, those rosaries are what people use to pray with, and it’s very serious. You pray with those after you do Confession and that’s a big deal to those who believe. I consider this an act of terrorism towards these poor people. What’s next? Sterilization of the women? Castrate the men? No, this is Nazi Germany sh*t, and you can quote me on that. Because I tell you right now, and you can quote me on this, too, if you like Trump or you voted for him, you cannot come into my house. I’ll tell you that right now. I drew that line in the sand a year ago, and every day I’m realizing that that’s a good position to have. CBC: So were you creative as a child? Mary: Yeah, I was going to get to that. Neither my brother nor my dad can draw a straight line, so it was my mom and I who did all the art, and I knew immediately upon birth that I was going to be an artist, which my dad thought was a waste of time. “What will you do for a living? Don’t you want to be a teacher?” Hell, no! I didn’t like

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Above: Mary labeled this 1968 pic of herself in her room, “Sweet Sarcastic Sixteen,” and adds, “Note the Howlin’ Wolf album cover slightly hidden behind the vinyl LP record.” Below: Mary shares that this flyer is from 1969, “The psychedelic era.” She adds, “There was a teen club in my area called The Third Eye, so, to get in free, I offered to do the flyers. I would’ve been 17 at that time.”

Above: “Our band, The Wig Titans playing the Bar Leucadian, in 2004,” Mary said. From left to right: Tom Gardner on guitar, Mary on bass, Rebecca Olachea on drums, and Mary’s husband, Paul Therrio, on guitar. Below: This flyer is from 1979, the punk era. Mary adds, “This proves, once again, the most misspelled word in the universe is ‘weirdo.’ I thought I’d take a stab at drawing the ‘Marvel Way.’ That lasted for about three flyers.”

older brother, so it was me and my brother. He was seven years older, so we did a lot of stuff together when we were younger. When we were older we grew apart, because teenagers don’t hang out together. When we moved, this kid goes, “Are you going to miss us?” And I went, “Nope.” [laughs] “Goodbye.” But in school I always had a lot of friends and in high school I was very sociable, so it was just being a very young person living in a place that was really hot and it just… I was not very happy. When I turned ten, things changed. It’s called positive trauma. Remember that phrase? Aline Kominsky-Crumb used it to describe her and Robert moving to France and what that would do to her daughter? Well, that’s kind of what it was for me when we moved to Canada. It was positive trauma. It made me grow up. CBC: What artistic influences did you have? What were you into? Did you get into comics? Did you get into comic strips? Mary: My bible was the comics section of the Sunday newspaper. I lived for Sunday. I’d run out to the driveway and get the Sunday paper and take the comics pages, and then I would race to my room and I’d study it for, like, three hours, and they’d be pounding on my door, “We want the comics! Give ’em up!” “Just five more minutes!” And I just studied them and looked at them, and I knew that they were probably drawn by people, but I couldn’t imagine how. It just astounded me that people were that good. And we’re talking about an era where the section, either in the L.A. Times or the L.A. Herald Examiner, it’d be at least 24 pages, and at least 16" x 22"! And the variety was astounding. The front page would always have Dick Tracy and Li’l Abner. Then you’d turn it over and there’d be The Little King and Steve Canyon, and the variety of styles blew me away. But my favorites were The Little King and Dick Tracy, because they were so simply drawn. Because I figured, eh, anyone can draw realistically and put all those lines in there. The more lines, the merrier, you know… and all that shading and everything…? Bah! Who needs it? And The Little King I just loved because it was so simple. What Soglow could do in just four little lines just was amazing. And Dick Tracy was just so bizarre I couldn’t believe that was even being printed in the paper. It was violent! My gosh, it was! And it got stupid when the Moon Maid showed up. I lost interest

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All © Mary Fleener.

kids. I didn’t want to be a teacher; I wanted to be an artist! And so my mom was supportive, and she let me use her art supplies and ruin them, and leave the brushes and the paint and they’d dry, and she’d just sort of go, “Oh, Mary.” But she was less weird about her art supplies than she was about other things, so it was sort of like that was the bond we had, that I could do art things. But I also did stupid things like taking books and coloring in them. Like, I had a beautiful book of The Wizard of Oz, and I decided the fairy needed lipstick, so I took a black pen and made all her lips black. (Which, of course, is very fashionable now, but back then…) I was just this weird kid who just thought that if it was a book or paper, you could draw on it. So I did a lot of wacky stuff. I was always a little artist, and then did crafts and arts in high school, and then majored in art in college. And that was a waste of time! CBC: Were you a sociable kid? Mary: Hmmm… I wanted to be, but I thought kids were cruel, and they were really mean, and they picked on people, and I didn’t like that. I never did that. I never picked on anybody or made fun of anyone, but they sure did do it to you. So when I was eight, my best friend was 12. I preferred older people. Now most of my friends are eight–14 years younger than I. CBC: And so there wasn’t a gang in the neighborhood or anything like that, necessarily? Were you more solitary? Mary: In West Covina and there was a little gang of kids, but they were all brats. You know, I had an

“Campesino” © Mary Fleener.

after that. But, anyway, so that’s what I studied were those. We didn’t have comic books. Romance comic books were really popular, but they had Frederick’s of Hollywood ads in the back and my mom thought those were too sexy for me to see. Too provocative! And I did start drawing sexy ladies and everything right away because, okay, Mighty Mouse, and Mickey Mouse, and all the animal shows, there was always like this sexy girl character going, “Hi, baby.” The Marilyn Monroe type… and that was the thing. Sex was everywhere! They had Jayne Mansfield, Brigitte Bardot on the TV, in every magazine, and the women had the tight waists, and they had those pointy bras. My dad had a pile of Playboys right next to the bed! And my mom was worried about Frederick’s of Hollywood? I mean, it was laughable. So, yeah, no comic books. We didn’t have allowances. We didn’t have money to buy comics. CBC: So you got into comic strips, what, when you were six or eight? Pretty young? Mary: I remember it being before kindergarten, before I could read even. I just looked at the pictures for hours, but I could “read” The Little King easily! CBC: Did you copy them? Mary: I traced them. [laughs] But that was the one thing I would get me in trouble with my mom. That was a nono. If you’re going to draw, you draw it all by yourself. When I was about in the sixth grade, I started doing something really terrible. I would take Archie comics, and I would trace them, their heads and stuff, but then I would draw naked bodies. [laughs] And I’d sell them to the kids [laughs] for, a quarter. And I got yelled at. CBC: Oh, really? Mary: For tracing! CBC: At 11, you were selling Tijuana Bibles? Mary F. Fleener! [laughter] Mary: Yeah. And my mom caught me in the act. I only did maybe ten of them, but, hey, it was three bucks, four, maybe a couple bucks. Remember candy bars were really big and they only cost a nickel then, right? CBC: [Laughs] That’s great. So did you, was TV in your house early on? Mary: Yeah, we always had a TV, but it was always all the intellectual stuff, and the big show 21st Century. God, they did nothing but talk about World War II when I was growing up on TV constantly. And then my dad was the dictator of the TV, so he watched Mitch Miller, Lawrence Welk… You Bet Your Life with Groucho Marx was the family favorite. I was totally influenced by his subversive humor. I still enjoy those shows. We weren’t allowed to watch Saturday morning cartoons. She thought sitting around watching TV was

Left: Sonny Liew includes a charming homage to legendary cartoonist Walt Kelly’s classic newspaper comic strip Pogo with his Bukit Chapalang. Previous page and below: Two portraits of Singapore’s “greatest comics artist,” Charlie Chan.

bad, so we had to go outside and play. But every once in a while, there were the Fleischer Brothers cartoons, and they blew me away. Those were the freakiest things, and they still are the freakiest animation strips on earth. I remember I sat through about two hours of these when my mom wasn’t home, and my grandmother was babysitting, so I could watch all the cartoons I wanted. And they were just weird. And everybody was always bouncy because of the music, and I thought that was so weird that characters were like, “Bump, bump, bump, bump,” all the time. CBC: Were you a tomboy? Mary: Oh, yeah! And I didn’t consider myself a tomboy, I was just… You know, it’s funny. I was talking to my mom about this last time I went to visit her that I hated girls’ clothes. I still hate girls’ clothes. I haven’t worn a dress for 30 years. I wanted to wear pants, and I wanted robots, and I wanted science things. I hated dolls. But I didn’t want to be a boy. I just didn’t like that stuff. So I guess I got a tomboy label. But I wanted long hair, and I wanted to wear makeup and soon as I could, and I liked jewelry, and some girly stuff — you know, it was different, because back then you had to wear skirts to school, and it was the petticoats, and… ugh. It was just awful. Girls were still wearing the full skirts with the petticoats, and the little barrettes and all that crap. And so that was what was neat about moving to Canada. It was

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Above: This early example of Marys comic strip work from Prime Cuts #5 [Nov. 1987], the first anthology in which she appeared, after Weirdo. About the story’s subject matter, as timely today as when it first appeared, Mary said, “As long as we get our cheap labor, nothing will ever change.” Below: Mary’s Madame X from Planet Sex strip appeared in Weirdo. This panel is from #14 [Fall 1985].

Above: First attempt by Mary trying to do a comic strip. She explains, “’Zilla is a jazz musician with a bad attitude. This is before I did Madame X from Planet Sex for Weirdo . One ’Zilla strip was published in a ’zine called Demo, and the rest I recycled in 2005 in our local Encinitas, California, paper.”

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

’Zilla TM & © Mary Fleener.

Mary: Oh, hell, no. I was feeling the ’60s by 1962! I was into Bob Dylan. My brother, because he was older, could buy records, and he could buy albums, so he bought a lot of them. So I was listening to Bob Dylan, and Mississippi John Hurt, and Howlin’ Wolf, and all the old black blues guys, all that stuff, before The Beatles. And The Beach Boys were before The Beatles. I was a big Beach Boys fan. That was my first concert, and they were good! They were huge, but when I got the first Stones record, I was a Stones person. And then, about that time, the Mary Quant styles were coming out of England, and everybody wanted to dress like Twiggy, and have long hair. And then I started hearing about the scene in San Francisco. I heard about Jefferson Airplane in 1965 because of the music and the radio stations. In Vancouver, you could buy English pop magazines, like Fabulous and Rave, so I kept up with those, too. I was a real rock ’n’ roll kid. (I can’t wait to read Carol Tyler’s book about the Fab Four, because I suspect we both had similar experiences.) CBC: But you were a Stones girl. Mary: True! The Beatles came to Vancouver, but tickets sold out in a matter of seconds. But when the Stones came, I got to see them twice because I went with my brother. Because he was older, it was okay with my parents. And so I got to see them twice with Brian cold, so you had to dress for practicality, and of course the styles had changed by 1961, ’62. Everything was, you know, Jones, and the first time was nuts because there was nothing but screaming from the audience. But I was there going “mod” and the English influence was starting to hit. to hear the music, man, not to sit there and scream and pee I liked to play with the boys and do rough stuff. My mom was always worried I’d hurt myself. “He might damage your my pants like all these other girls. That is weird. But the internal organs so you can never have children!” [laughter] second time was really interesting because Brian Jones was clearly mentally disturbed, and he was very scary. He “Mom! Leave me alone!” was my favorite but not after I saw him on stage. He would CBC: Did she like your independent streak? look at these girls and bare his teeth like he was growling Mary: Well, because I was so sensitive as a younger kid, at them. And they would scream even louder. It was creepy and I had my feelings hurt so much, and I cried because of and I realized he was one messed up person. So I became the bullies, and people picked on me, she tried to toughen me up. She’d always go, “You don’t want to be like the salm- a Keith fan, and still am! Anyway, so when we came back down here in ’67, on always going up the stream all together. You go the other everything was hippie, hippie, hippie, and I wanted to be way, and if that kid doesn’t invite you to their party, screw a hippie in the worst way, but I was stuck at a girl’s school ’em! You’re gonna be somebody someday!” So she kind of helped me, but then when I started taking her advice, she’d for a year. But that was pretty cool because I was kind of a little jock and I was into sports, and since it was a Catholic go, “I shouldn’t have said all those things. You’re too wild girls school, they didn’t have money for sports teams, so now! I really regret telling you to march to the beat of your that was the end of my track and field days. The nuns own drummer.” I’d go, “God, what do you want?” considered teaching a vocation, not a job, and they were CBC: All right then! You went to Canada, and you came very progressive, really progressive. They were telling us, back in, what was that, ’67? So there were the ’60s. When did you start feeling the ’60s for yourself? As it was happen- “There’s a revolution coming, and you kids are going to be on the forefront of this revolution, and we’re going to overing? Or were you in a backwater?

They Were in Love © John E. & Mary Fleener. Color My Totem and The Less You Know, The Better You Feel © Mary Fleener. The Dead Girl © William Clark & Mary Fleener.

throw the government.” And I’m sitting there going, “Wow, these are nuns? This is amazing!” And in homeroom they’d read Bob Dylan poems, “Nowhere Man” by The Beatles, and this one lay teacher read parts of “Howl” by Allen Ginsberg (though she left out the dirty parts, of course). But they were amazing, and I really enjoyed going to St. Mary’s Academy… I hated it at first, the uniforms were ridiculous looking, but I liked going because the girls were like, so intellectual, and it was so funny because my parents didn’t want me to go to Inglewood High because “all those blacks and Mexicans that go there.” Well, guess what? At St. Mary’s, it was all the black, Mexican, and Jewish kids of parents who didn’t want them going to Inglewood High School. So we celebrated Chinese New Year, Hanukkah, Christmas. All of us wanted to be wild, and we had love-ins. I was sad when I left, because then I went to a normal coed high school for my last two years, and I was bored out of my mind. CBC: Were you frequently in art class? Were you always doing art? Mary: Well, this is how it worked out so well. I got such a good education in Canada and St. Mary’s and I had so many credits, I was done with math, I was done with English, and history. By the time I was a senior in high school, my whole afternoons, all three periods, were nothing but art. They said, “Well, do you want to get into drama?” I’m going, “Hell, no! Those people are snobs.” “Well, how about business?” “Business?” So I had a couple of art teachers who were very nice and they wanted to encourage me, so they pulled a few strings, and it was great. I started selling my own art when I was about 16, at the local little gift shop. I would paint my mother’s wine bottles with my brother’s leftover enamel paints from his little model kits, and I used nail polish. And I’d paint these wine bottles and I’d sell them for $20. I’d usually sell five a month, Even then, the store would take a 50% commission but, to me, that was a lot of money! CBC: What did you do with the money? Mary: Oh, blew it. I’d buy records, cigarettes, and candy… stuff like that. CBC: Were you doing the pot as a teenager? Mary: Not until I was a senior, and I was in art class, and I bought three joints for a dollar from this bad girl. So I took them home, and my brother and I waited until my parents went to a party. But my brother wouldn’t try it. He was too afraid. I didn’t feel anything the first time, and then the second time, I just laughed for four hours and I loved it. My brother is just going, “Man! Man!” He’s just walking around the house going, “Man, they’re going to be home soon!” I’m going, “I don’t care, ha-ha-ha-ha.” But I was never a drinker, though. My parents and their friends were such alcoholics and they drank so much, I didn’t start drinking until I was in my 30s. I thought it was lame. CBC: So was there an allure that was coming down from San Francisco? Did you want to go up there? I mean, you

had been exposed to Grace Slick and all that. Mary: Well, at first I wanted to. One of the girls I met at St. Mary’s was a real troublemaker and she wanted us to run away together and I almost did it because it was getting to be World War III around the house as my folks and I butted horns on a daily basis. But, being the practical Virgo that I am, I just went, “Eh, what’ll we do for money? We can’t get jobs yet. We’re too young. Where are we going to live? What are we going to do?” So I said no. And then, as I learned more about San Francisco and saw the pictures, it just looked like it was horrible — the diseases and all that. The closest thing we had here was Hollywood, the Sunset Strip, but then the police started cracking down on anyone who looked hip or young. Going back to what we were talking about California being very conservative: the ’60s didn’t really start here in California until David Bowie came on the scene, and then the cops had something more to worry about! I don’t care if it was the South Bay, Hermosa Beach, Manhattan Beach, Hollywood, Riverside… you were pulled over and searched. I lost count of how many times I got pulled over in my car because I had an old beat-up Pontiac. And, if guys with me had long hair, the cops would practically strip-search them, try to humiliate them, and provoke them into saying something stupid that would get them arrested or worse. It was horrible. So being a teenage hippie in Southern California was no picnic. And you can talk to Dennis Worden about this, too. We compared stories and, no, it was not liberal here at all… at all! Three or more people together were

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Above: Various mini-comics by Mary. From left, They Were in Love [1986], Mary’s first mini. “Somehow I’d gotten a copy of stories written by this John E. guy, who lived in Kansas,” Mary said, “and, when I read this two-page story, I knew it had to be a comic.” Color My Totem [1987], “Just a little mini-comic coloring book,” the cartoonist states. “Each page had 15 images per page to have fun with.” The Dead Girl [1988], written by William Clark. “When he sent me this story,” she says, “I wasn’t sure if I was attracted to it because it was so bittersweet or because Clark seemed like a tortured wounded bird who had no chance of recovery. I’ve never met him or talked to him. I recognized his obsession but always felt I was walking on thin ice doing a comic with someone like him. There was obviously some heavy stuff going on.” Below: Collections of Mary’s political cartoons, originally drawn for The Coast News, her hometown paper.

shop called The Neighbor Store in Hermosa Beach, and about five or six of us sat around. We were all going to smoke some pot and get stoned and everything, and we started looking at these comics and, after a half-hour, we all went, “God, we don’t need any drugs now. Look at this Robert Crumb guy. He’s nuts!” And the S. Clay Wilson stuff, it was just, “Oh, I don’t know if I should be looking at this.” [laughs] Then, of course, after ZAP #0 and #1, everybody was drawing like Robert Crumb. Everybody doodled in their notebooks and everything looked liked Crumb… and Rick Griffin, because Rick Griffin went to my high school. CBC: Did he? Mary: Yes, he did. I think four years before me. In fact, he did a cartoon version of Beowulf that our English teacher gave us to read. It was 10 or 12 pages, printed on a mimeograph machine, and I kept it for years. I don’t know what happened to it. God, I wish I had that thing now. And it was so good! You could tell the guy just had raw talent, and… “Wow! Look at this! This guy can take a novel and make it a cartoon.” Of course! [laughter] CBC: What year did you graduate? Mary: In 1969. CBC: What were your prospects? Mary: Nothin’. Not much. You mean, for school? What was I going to do with my life? CBC: Yeah, college. Did you have a career path? Were you going to live at home? Mary: Well, I was living at home until I was 20, but I started working when I was 18 at a local Von’s supermarket in the snack bar because I wanted money. I was going to a junior college and I was always going to be an artist. About that there was no doubt. I was an art major taking art classes. But once I got to the junior college, I started getting really good grades because I hated high school so much. I worked sh*tty retail jobs for the next few years. You know, art stores, music stores…. CBC: When did you start playing an instrument? Mary: When I was 14. Folk music was real popular, and my girlfriends were forming a group and, if I wanted to be in

called an illegal assembly because that was during all the Vietnam War protests and they didn’t want people getting together, so if you were standing around with three people and a cop drove up, everybody just walked away. It was crazy. CBC: So were you pretty much a hippie yourself? Mary: Well, no. I lived at home. Smoking pot, wearing a fringe jacket, and having long hair doesn’t make you a hippie. It was part of the fashion. I did take some of the hippie ethos to heart. I loved making my own clothes and even shoes and doing tie-dye and batik and leather-work… things like that. I pierced my nose in 1970 and I thought my mom was gonna die! (I hated rings and wore a nice small flat opal and it was very subtle). I started to learn how to cook and grow vegetables, because my folks always had a fabulous garden wherever we lived, but I didn’t go to any of the protests and didn’t get involved in the political stuff at all. I waited until I was in my 50s to do that. [laughs] CBC: Did you get exposed to underground comics at all? Mary: Oh, well, yes. I remember the day very clearly: It was the summer of 1968 and we were at my friend’s house, and he had a whole pile that he had bought from a head #18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photos © Mary Fleener & Pauul Therrio. Chicken Slacks TM & © Mary Fleener.

Above: Various pix of Mary and her husband, Paul Therrio. Clockwise from above: Mary and Paul’s “wedding photo” (her quotes) taken in a fancy restaurant after the ceremony. “That’s as formal as we got,” says she; the couple in 1988 at San Elijo Lagoon, “The backdrop I used in my graphic novel, Billie the Bee”; and the pair attending a wedding in 2015. Inset right: The cover of Chicken Slacks #4 [1989], a digest anthology of illustrated song lyrics. Mary explains, “Many Weirdo contributors were featured, such as Wayno, Roy Tompkins, Bob X, Gary Wray, Dennis Worden, and Lloyd Dangle, as well as others, among them The Pizz, Mack White, Scott Cunningham, Pete Friedrich, and Bruce Hilvitz.

All © Mary Fleener.

the group, I had to learn guitar. So I started practicing. And then we moved away! I didn’t get into the group because I was thousands of miles away, but I continued playing. In high school, I was president of the folk singers club, and we’d put on the hootenannies and everyone did all these very serious Joan Baez songs. But then I discovered Shel Silverstein. I didn’t know he wrote “A Boy Named Sue” and “I’ve Been Eaten by a Boa Constrictor”! [laughs] I got an album of his songs and I went, “I’m in love!” So I started doing Shel Silverstein songs at the hootenannies, and they were very funny, and they’re very dark. Like, in “You’re Always Welcome in Our House,” he goes: “A boy came into our yard, our yard, our yard, a boy came into our yard to get his ball, so we asked him to come in, and we took him downstairs, and we sealed him up inside the basement wall.” [laughs] And everybody would start laughing. I really liked him. I thought he was cool. I took up bass guitar when I was 24 and dropped out of college as an art major, and decided I was never going to make art again. I was now a musician, so I got a job in a music store and started practicing, and that’s how I learned bass and got into rock ’n’ roll that way. CBC: Do you have any friends that you still have from the high school days, or did you connect very closely with anyone? Mary: Oh, we had a whole tribe of the hippie troublemakers. We were like the art loser weirdos. My boyfriend had a band, and his brother was in the band, and so there was a group of kids that was sort of a clique because we all hung out together, and we were into Frank Zappa and Captain Beefheart, so they wanted to do performance art on stage. One time they pretended to sacrifice a girl on stage, and they had chicken guts and blood, and they were throwing it out in the audience. These were the guys that the teachers would chase around school with scissors trying to cut their hair. I’m still friends with all these people. Unfortunately, about half of them have died, which is sad, but I’m still close friends with the old boyfriend. And some of us have reconnected on Facebook. So, yeah, the people I liked in high school I still like and I still see. Which is why I have no desire to ever go to a high school reunion, because this high school I graduated from was a jock school. George Allen — remember that guy who insulted that reporter and called him “Macaca”? CBC: [Laughs] Right. Mary: Yeah, he was the son of this football coach, and he was the biggest bully in our school, and that’s kind of the guys we had on campus. It was cheerleaders and entitled prima donnas and all these kids were the rich kids. Not the people I hung with! Palos Verdes is a so-called “exclusive community” that’s south of Los Angeles. It’s a lot like Beverley Hills.. CBC: So did you always do cartooning? When did cartooning for you come into play? Mary: Well, kind of late. I secretly fantasized and tried this and that, and it didn’t look very good. In fact, I really didn’t know what I wanted to do at one point. That’s why I dropped out when I was a senior as an art major, I was working on something one day and I looked down at it and I just said, “This is sh*t. I’m done with art.” And I walked out the door. I was at age 23, I had no vision, I had nothing to say. I didn’t want to say anything. I wanted to play music. And I had no prospects, so it was probably when I got a job at a frame shop and I started selling

art supplies again that I got interested, and I was living with a band, and we were playing around a lot, and that’s when the punk rock thing started happening, around ’77, ’78. And so we’d go to these concerts, and I’d come home and I’d draw these people because they were so amusing. And this is even before Richard Hell had the “Please Kill Me” T-shirts. I saw people wearing shirts that said saying, “Kick Me in the Head,” “Slice My Veins Open”… They were wearing the razor blades, and the first wave of punk stuff had a lot of fantastic style and creativity. And it was new. I saw The Ramones play at The Starwood and I could feel the wheel of fashion turning and I knew music was going to change. It wasn’t until 1984, when I was 33, when I really buckled down and became a cartoonist. And that’s when I decided to get serious. I got a copy of an article in the L.A. Weekly that Matt Groening had written about the new comics, namely RAW and Weirdo, and he had the addresses for Robert Crumb when he was living up in Winters [California], and Dennis Worden’s address,

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Above: Mary’s painting, They’re Watching You [2000], 30" x 40" acrylic on canvas painting. Inset left: Page from They Were in Love, Mary’s very first mini-comic.

WHAT THE “F” DEPT.: When Ye Ed asked Mary her middle name, she replied, “I don’t have one! All I have is a stupid initial, ‘F.’ My old man thought it was neat that Harry S. Truman only had a middle initial and no middle name beyond that, so that’s where he got the idea. Thus, it’s ‘Mary F. Fleener.’ Add that I hyphenated my name when I got married, so my driver’s license says ‘Mary F. Fleener-Therrio.’ Everyone then assumes I’m Italian! (Therrio was originally spelled ‘Therriault,’ because it’s a French-Canadian name, and some idiot in Paul’s family wanted to be more ‘American.’)” 13

Above: Mary says, “This is an example of Batik, a way of dying fabric using wax as a resist. I started doing this in high school and continued until 1984, when I started cartooning. Made hundreds and sold ’em all. This piece is 30" by 60", using aniline dyes on white silk.” Below: 1986 illustration titled “Cubismo Sax Man.” In the second interview installment coming in CBC #19, Mary discusses her “cubismo” drawing style, and we’ll feature a step-by-step illustration by the alternative comic book artist.

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All © Mary Fleener.

reviewed all these mini-comics. That’s how I met a lot of people that way. CBC: How did you get exposed to the fanzines and the mini-comics? What was the network like? Was it all through the mail? Mary: By the time I was living in Encinitas, at one point downtown we had Off the Record, Lou’s Records, and Music Mart, all in one block! And they had stacks of these magazines. (Some of the first reviews I read of Nirvana were terrible. These guys hated Nirvana! And then, 1991, whammo!) The manager of Off The Record was very supportive and they sold my minis and even Hoodoo, my first solo 28-pager. because he had a book called Slur. And I go, “Oh my God, You know, Flipside’s been around for a long time. Pete Crumb! I gotta write him! I don’t know who this Slur guy is, Bagge would review mini-comics in Weirdo, and so I’d but I’ll write him, too!” And so I heard back from Crumb, write those people and send them a couple of quarters, and and I was very surprised he wrote back to me and sent me they’d write me back, send me their comics and a couple of a free copy of Weirdo. Worden wrote back and he just lived quarters. It wasn’t unusual to go to my P.O. box and there’d up the coast about a half-hour away in San Juan Capistrabe about 12 envelopes with all this money in there. You no. We became friends right away and we’ve kind of got a could shake it, and you’d feel the quarters rolling around. brother/sister relationship. We’ve gotten in some fights, but [laughs] we’re still pals. [laughs] CBC: Were you familiar with the Black Flag scene that CBC: So you obviously recognized Crumb from when you was emerging, and the punk art scene that evolved in L.A. had been exposed to him in ’68, right? at the time? Mary: Of course. Mary: Well, yeah. Black Flag were in Hermosa Beach, CBC: He was a celebrity of sorts, right? and that was a mile away, and there was a place called The Mary: Oh, well, “celebrity”…? I dunno about that at that Church, where bands hung out and played. It was in the time. Somebody gave me a pile of Arcades about 1976 or so, South Bay area, and the beach towns of Redondo, Hermowhen I thought the undersa, Manhattan are almost like one big city, really. And so we grounds were dead, dead, all heard about Black Flag when they first started, before dead, because they closed Henry Rollins joined the band, and they played in some park all the head shops, and that Hermosa Beach and caused a riot, it was in all the papers. was where you bought unWhether or not it was a real riot is debatable. The police derground comics, as well had started their harassment of punks right after that, so of as the music stores. When course, this was fodder for their campaign of terror. the music stores stopped I was in a power-pop band, and we were playing at a carrying all the bongs and club called Under the Pier at the Redondo Beach pier, and rolling papers, the comic on Wednesday we had 99¢ night, and that was the first time books were part of that, too, that anybody saw X or The Alley Cats or The Weirdos. This and because the graphic was a year before The Masque opened in L.A. The Zippers sex and dope references were friends of ours. My husband was in a band called the most retailers didn’t want to Imperial Dogs and they were a little bit ahead of their time, mess with them. So when I and they broke up before they could get anywhere because got the Arcades, I go, “All it’s a tough business and, in 1974, nobody was hiring bands right! Crumb is still alive! that played originals in L.A. You had to be a copy band He’s still drawing! And, oh, and played Top 40 songs. It’s too bad, because The I-Dogs look, here’s this guy who would’ve fit right into the scene. does that Pinhead guy!” So the connection between the comics and the music And so the Arcades got me was real tight here in the South Bay. So, when we moved all excited, and then I got down to Encinitas in ’81, I was the girl in that X song, “Los Griffith’s Observatory by Bill Angeles”. I had to leave. I had to get out of there. So I didn’t Griffith, and I went, “Oh, really care about music for a while. I didn’t pay attention my God! Okay! It’s not dead to the music for a while. Until I met Dennis Worden, and yet!” So, eight years later, then he started sending me cassettes of the new hardcore when I read this article by punk groups. By that time, there were at least 20 different Matt Groening, that’s when definitions of what punk was. I started doing mini-comCBC: What was it to you? ics, and discovered this Mary: Well, the original punk reminded me of surf music. whole network, thanks to [laughs] You can hear Chuck Berry as well in The Sex PisFactsheet Five, Flipside, and tols and The Ramones. So I kind of liked that old school rock Maximum Rocknroll, and ’n’ roll feel. The hardcore stuff didn’t do it for me, like The other music magazines that Circle Jerks or Fear. Maybe I was too old or something. I

Painting © Mary Fleener. L./A. Weekly TM & © the respective copyright holder.

liked The Cramps, The Alley Cats and The Blasters. Punk was refreshing You didn’t have to play really good, like Eric Clapton or Jimmie Page, and nobody did drum solos, so that was a relief. I spent the whole ’70s going to concerts were bands were just over-the-top, too loud. The solos and the jacking off on the guitar on stage, it just got corny. It got old and boring. That’s why The Stones are still playing, because they don’t do that crap. They’re smart. It’s a modern day miracle they still play at all!! CBC: Now, what is the relationship between comics, cartoons, and punk music, for you? Mary: I just say rock ’n’ roll. [laughs] CBC: Do you see a connection with it? There obviously was this symbiotic energy that was taking place between… What I’m discovering from doing the Weirdo book is that you can sense that music is an accoutrement, I guess. It’s a part of it. I mean, it’s just a part of this whole alternative comics scene. It’s not a formal connection, but it’s always there. And do you see, in your estimation, that there is a connection between rock ’n’ roll and comics? Mary: Absolutely. First of all, a rejection of authority is a common theme in rock ’n’ roll music. Questioning authority is a common theme of underground comics. And not believing all the bullsh*t you’ve been taught, and that’s a real common theme, especially with the EC Comics. They were telling morality tales of people who were greedy, had to get money or an inheritance by any means necessary, and how they’d always have to “pay the price” for their evil ways. It’s just propaganda that we’ve all been fed, to think we can’t have a happy life unless we have all these status symbols. And what does it get you? It gets you a couple of suicides like we had two weeks ago [of Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade]. It’s not the answer. And that’s what rock ’n’ roll is about. You want to be happy? Cut loose and quit being so uptight. Sing a song, dance! You know? Rock out! There’s nothing wrong with it. Be uninhibited. And the originality of the art form. Those are two American art forms, rock ’n’ roll and comics, and they came out of our oppression because all the religion, and “one nation under God,” and you’ve got to do this, you’ve got to do that. When the undergrounds came out, we still had the draft. So I think it’s a reaction to this thing we were told we had to live. And you can’t fit everybody into those boxes. Not everybody wants to be a millionaire. Some people just want to be happy. There was

something about the hippies. I didn’t like them later on, but the beginning premise of love, not war, be nice to people, love animals, all men are equal, all that. All good ideas. I think somebody named Jesus Christ said pretty much the same stuff. CBC: Now, okay, so you got exposed to, what was it, in ’83 that you read Matt Groening’s article? Mary: In 1984, my friend Don Waller, who was in The Imperial Dogs with my husband… Let’s back up: When we moved here, I was lonely, because I hadn’t made that many friends yet, so I started writing letters to my friends in L.A., and I put little comics at the bottom. And, so my friend Don wrote me back and said, “Oh, I really like what you’re doing. You should get this article that Matt Groening wrote, perhaps you will get some contacts. So he gave me the address for the L.A. Weekly, and I ordered a copy of that issue, and that was 1984. Don was a writer who wrote The Motown Story, covers a lot of rock shows for the L.A .Times, worked a lot in the music biz, started a zine called Back

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Above: Mary’s painting, Freestylin’, a 2005 acrylic painting on canvas, 30" by 40".

Above: Funkadelicized [1999]. 30" by 40". Acrylic on canvas. “This one’s been all over the place,” Mary reveals. “The La Luz de Jesus Gallery in Los Angeles; Oceanside Museum of Art , in Oceanside, Calif.); The American Visionary Art Museum (Baltimore, Md.), and other venues.”

Coming next ish…

TO BE CONTINUED

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All © Mary Fleener.

The second half of our interview with Mary Fleener, this segment covering her “Weirdo” start in alternative comics and subsequent career as premiere cubismo cartoonist seen in her publications Hoodoo, Slutburger, the Zongo comic title Fleener, Mineshaft, and in her upcoming debut graphic novel, Billie the Bee!

Door Man, and he knew a thing or two about publishing. CBC: Do you still have that issue of L.A. Weekly? Mary: No… [laughs] But I might. I’ve got dozens and dozens of manila envelopes with every letter that everybody ever wrote me, and letters from cartoonists, and I’ve got piles of magazines and ’zines and stuff that I really do need to go to, because I’ve been in touch with the Billy Ireland Museum, and they should have all this stuff. I might still have it. I don’t think so, though. CBC: If you come across it, it’s pretty seminal in “The Fleener Story.” Just sayin’, Mary. Mary: Well, about 15 years ago, for my father I started saving a scrapbook of all the reviews and articles that mentioned my name, and now it’s almost six inches thick and I’m glad I did it. I saved some stuff! CBC: That’s great. So you were suddenly exposed to the world of mini-comics, and with alternative comics that was going on, the do-it-yourself aesthetic that was going on. Did you know about the history of comics? I mean, you just mentioned EC as being something that was iconoclastic. Did you know about the history of comics or did you just start learning from them? Mary: I couldn’t tell the difference between a Jack Kirby and a Steve Rude. That was a whole other world I knew nothing about. So the first comic convention I went to in 1986, I didn’t know any history. I’d only read Howard the Duck. [laughs] And maybe a couple issues of The Hulk. I only knew about underground people. CBC: What did you do between the time of quitting college

in the mid-’80s? What did you do, did you work? Mary: Oh, I also got fired from every job I ever had. I was out of my mind. My husband and I lived together, and when I got fired from my last job, he said, “Well, why don’t you just do your artwork, and I’ll work.” And I had always lived very frugally, being an artist, and having cheap parents, and all that. And our rent was something $300 a month, and he was an engineer, so it worked. I was working in a medium called batiking at that time, and it’s a process of designing fabric using melted wax and dyes, and you apply wax, ( a combination of beeswax and paraffin,) in different areas to preserve the previous color, and let the fabric dry, then repeat until you have what you want. Then you remove the wax with a hot iron, between newspapers, which soaks up the wax. One final rinse in a cleaning solvent and you have this beautiful thing. I worked on silk with aniline dyes. I was selling them, getting in shows, and doing that kind of stuff. I would frame them under UV glass. And then we moved down here and I kind of walked around in a state of shock for a couple of years, going, “Whoa, whoa, whoa.” And, in ’84, I just said, “Okay, I gotta do cartooning now.” CBC: Why were you in a state of shock? Mary: Well, from moving from Redondo Beach where we’d grown up down here to Encinitas is only 70 miles, but it was a whole other world. My grandmother died and I inherited her house up in South-Central L.A., and I wasn’t going to live there, so I had to grow up real quick. I had to learn about escrows and real estate, and sell her house and buy one of my own. That was a shock. Adult problems, you know, that you’ve got to deal with, because nobody was going to do it for me. It was up to me. I didn’t have that much money, but $28,000 got you a down-payment in Encinitas back in 1981. (It wouldn’t even get you through the door now.) CBC: It’s interesting. Your story, creatively, is you can bring it down to that moment of having a friend tell you through a letter to suggest that you check out this issue of L.A. Weekly, and that led to us talking right now. There’s not many people, necessarily, that they can point to a watershed moment in their life of that’s the moment that everything came after, but you have that. Do you look at that like it was destined that this should happen? Mary: Yes. I had a feeling. Now that you mention it, I’m getting it right now. It’s “chicken skin”!. Even before I got into Weirdo, I was telling people I was going to be in Weirdo. And Paul would go, “How do you know?” I’d go, “I know I am. I have to be in Weirdo. I have to be in Weirdo!” (pounding the table). I’m not psychic, but I have had intuitive episodes in my life, and I remember the day I went down to the mailbox and there was the manila envelope with Weirdo #15 in there from Crumb, and a letter, and I remember feeling strange. I was walking my dog, and I looked at her and I said, “Well, here we go!” And then, like I think I wrote to you, I showed it to a neighbor and I said, “Look! Look! It’s Robert Crumb!” And the guy goes, “Who’s that?” And I’m thinkin’, “Hoo-boy! Am I doing the right thing here?” Many years ago, I had a psychic give me a reading, and she told me that I would be famous at something unusual, and I always remember that. And the other thing I always remember is I got a card from Burne Hogarth. I’d met him at the Misfit Lit panel in L.A., and everybody was being really mean to him. But we hit it off, and we were joking and yucking it up and everything. And he sent me this nice Christmas card, and in it, he wrote, “You should take your drawings and turn them into paintings and make the art world tremble with envy!!!!” And I did that. I took his advice, and I started doing paintings. And I found my muse! I wish I was in college now. What I could do with a printing press, I could rule the world. [laughs] Anyway, to answer, I could feel this thing was going somewhere, I could feel my life changing, but I knew it would take a lot of hard, hard work and some rejection, but I was ready.

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Bob, Power & the King o’ Pop Some corrections to the Kirby article from CBC #16, as well as suggestions galore Write to CBC: jonbcooke@ aol.com or P. O. Box 204, West Kingston, RI 02892

Above: CBC mate Paul Power sadly informs us that the actor John Cygan, who portrayed the fictional ACE Comics editor in Bob Newhart’s early 1990s sitcom based in the comics industry, Bob, has passed away. Below: While Ye Ed confesses his investigative piece on Jack Kirby’s legal woes regarding his short-lived — and gloriously rendered with Wallace Wood’s exquisite inks! — newspaper strip, Sky Masters of Space Force, is included in editor Ferran Delgado’s full-color collection of Sunday strips, that will not stop me from telling you it’s a beautiful production! Visit amigocomics.com for info!

Joe Frank CBC #15 was, for me, a rare “off” issue. No big deal. In being eclectic in your choices, and thorough in your execution, it’s bound to happen you’ll select figures more exciting to you than me. I especially didn’t care for the look at underground comix. I remember them — just not fondly. In my admittedly limited reading of them, I never saw anything amusing or captivating. Mostly, it was exceeding boundaries just to shock. Or drug references, degrading images of women, and profanity. Didn’t encounter too many actual intriguing stories before I totally gave up on them. Here, about the only plus, in my view, was the shot of Lynch and Williamson, both big smiles, inking some early work. You could see they were quite delighted in what they were doing. Maybe it connected with a different audience? Did get a belated laugh, fifty years later, at the Bijou cover where hippies and radicals were asked to subscribe to Readers’ Digest. I’d heard of Mark Schultz, but hadn’t read his work. Nothing against it; looked beautifully done. It’s just my interest in prehistoric creatures ended around the time I read through that How and Why Wonder Book of Dinosaurs. Or maybe with the little plastic dinosaurs that came, as

Some of the creators that I think should be given extensive articles and documentation, are: Richard Corben. I don’t know if Corben has ever been thoroughly interviewed, but if not, then surely he deserves it. A giant in the field. Bruce Jones: His work at Warren is legendary, I suppose. I still have my dog-eared copy of Creepy #64 (I think) with his and Wrightson’s “Jenifer.” I was 10 years old and this tale just knocked me out. Bernie made the girl’s body so beautiful and sensuous and her face so horribly nauseating. I was both attracted and repulsed. What an insane story!! Jim Steranko. Jerry Grandenetti. I don’t know if he is still living. I first became aware of him with Eerie #35, from 1971, in a tale which to my recollection is called “Cats and Dogs,” about brothers who happen to be a werewolf and some kind of were-cat or leopard man. Naturally they fight. Grandenetti’s bizarre, German expressionistic, off-beat style is truly unique and he is a superb talent. [Jerry died in 2010. — Y.E.] Tom Palmer. Tom is noted for being mostly an inker, but what an inker!!! His work over Neal Adams is, I think, far better than Giordano over Adams, and no one has ever made Adams look better. I know there are many others, but this makes for a good start.

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Sky Masters of Space Force TM & © the respective copyright holder.

[Terrifically light mailbag this time out… is there anybody prizes, in bags of Fritos? Perhaps my favorite part, both for out there…? Thanks to those who did write. nostalgia and irony, was the shot of him, at five, contentedly — Ye Crusading Editor] parading his dinosaur troops across the rug. Certainly, his art and storytelling would be the more enticing of the two features. He sounded like a pleasant, diligent guy. Some of Paul Power the background details were even more amusing to me. He G’Day Jon B. Cooke: You did a fine job on the Bob article liked Wally Wood’s work, as do I. [CBC #16]. There are just a couple of points that I feel Schultz’s rendering is tremendous. In pencil line, shaded should be addressed about how I really got the job: drawings and ink, his work looks very impressive. The Steinkellers and Sutton [the sitcom’s showrunners] So, this was more someone I was unfamiliar with than were at a Hollywood party or function one day, where they didn’t care for or anything like that. More of an introduction were talking to the King of Pop, Michael Jackson. Michael to a stranger than an exploration of someone I already had purchased a copy of my East Meets West # 1 published enjoyed. But, rather than simply criticize, since you’re not a by Innovation in 1990. The Steinkellers had mentioned that mind-reader, here’s who I’d actively like to see interviewed they were leaving the Cheers sitcom to make a TV show in depth: Joe Sinnott, Mort Drucker, Walt Simonson, Jerry about a cartoonist at a comic book company. Mr. Jackson Ordway, P. Craig Russell, and Terry Austin. Marie Severin, suggested they interview me for the job of the artist who Jim Steranko, and Larry Lieber would be interesting subcould draw the shows comic book art. Very nice of him. jects, as well. They thought that I knew Michael personally. No, I’d never Delighted we have Wood and Frazetta issues upcoming. met him and did not know him personally but I did get to thank him for the gig. Ben Gross Rob Liefeld of Image Comics was brought in for a meeting and he had told them that I was a good choice for I just wanted to send this email to make a few comments on the job. I had known Rob before he became a big star in the great mag. I have been reading since inception, and just comics. He’s always been a top bloke. ordered the Kelly Jones and Mark Schulz issues directly Lastly, I’d like to mention that in January 2018 we lost from TwoMorrows. I will definitely be looking forward to the John Cygan who played ACE editor Harlan Stone on the Wally Wood issue, but this brings me to my point. show. John was a wonderful guy and acted in the short film But with artists like Wood, Gil Kane, etc., this is really that John Romita, Jr., and I made, I Just Draw! quite well-trodden material. What I think would be a great Thanks, mate, for a fine article about a sitcom that contribution to the hobby is to cover those great artists should be back on one of the big four networks. and writers who are still with us, and who have not been (P.S. I had suggested Mel Keefer for the episode beexhaustively interviewed or covered. The recent passing cause he helped me out when I was down on my luck. This of Bernie Wrightson shows us that time may be short, we was much to the surprise of Jonathan Stark, one of the Bob never know when it may be too late. That is why I think it writers. I had no idea that Mel was Stark’s father-in law! is so vital to cover the great creators that are still able to How about that!) speak on their careers. Before it is too late….

David J. Hogan Received the digital copy of CBC #17 a week or so ago and the print issue today. Very pleased with what you and the team did with my Outré piece about Woody. Handsome layout — and I’m really taken with the decision to make the final art piece (which links to the piece’s final sentiment) a circular one. Striking and effective. Thanks for a faithful edit. Wood has meant a great deal to me for 50 years, so to see the article presented so smartly is a real treat. Thanks again, Jon, and to all at CBC, for a sterling job.

The Book of Weirdo © Jon B. Cooke. Voyage to the Deep collection © It’s Alive Press. Mike Grell: Life is Drawing Without an Eraser © Mike Grell/TwoMorrows Publishing.

Brian Martin Thank you for another extremely entertaining issue of Comic Book Creator. The story of Wally Wood has always been a thought-provoking one that highlights the pitfalls of devoting your life to creating comic books. It also serves to illustrate just how driven some people can be to do the work they want and how that often leads to disappointment and disillusionment. Of course, in the final analysis, those of us who only knew the man through his work are left with a staggering body of high-quality product we can enjoy again at any time. Your two interview subjects for the issue seemed to be a fair bit different temperament-wise, but very much alike in their desire to do the work they want to despite commercial considerations. While Mr. Barta has waded into the super-hero pool on a number of occasions, neither he nor Mr. Reese ever became household names, probably because of their desire to follow their own muses rather than allow themselves to be seduced by the possibly significant financial rewards of doing work just for the money. I still love comics, but I sometimes wonder just what sort of spectacular creations we would have seen if only personal vision was more financially rewarding, or if the majority of creators were ever able to find a wealthy patron who was willing to support their sometimes niche market creations. I guess we will just have to continue to enjoy the comic book medium as it is and appreciate the amazing creations that are out there even given the sometimes less than perfect creative environment. Finally, I would like to add my voice to that of Ben Gross and urge you to consider a career spanning interview with Mr. Tom Palmer. If ever there was a creator who was a part of so many legendary teams, yet has never (to my knowledge) been the subject of any sort of in depth article or interview, Mr. Palmer certainly qualifies. With that in mind, there are a few other creators who I feel are deserving of in depth examination. This is of course in no way an exhaustive list, just what I have come up with some nights staring at the ceiling trying to go to sleep. I’ve divided them into creative disciplines as much as possible. Joe Rubinstein, Klaus Janson, and Terry Austin. All inkers of course who have had extremely long careers and have contributed to legendary runs or had significant careers and who I have never read exhaustive articles about. Roger Stern, Gerry Conway, and

Steve Englehart could have the same sentence above repeated if you just changed the job description. Roy Thomas has run interviews with Mr. Conway and Mr. Englehart in Alter Ego, but those articles concerned the time period of their careers that the magazine specializes in. Meanwhile, Mr. Stern has made significant contributions to both Marvel and DC. Paul Levitz, Paul Kupperberg, and Doug Moench are another trio of writers who have had such long and varied careers that I believe they are long overdue for retrospective interviews. The first two have concentrated their efforts for one company, but Mr. Moench has been equally involved with both of the Big Two. Last but not least, Dave Gibbons, Keith Giffen, and Dan Jurgens are three multi-talented individuals who have contributed significantly to the field for a long period of time. Mr. Gibbons’ contribution to Watchmen has been examined in extreme detail, but the rest of his career certainly deserves notice. The other two have not been subjects of significant examinations to my knowledge. I think that is all I have for now. Thank you so much for the current issue and the recent few as well. They have all been of equal quality even if I have not found time to fire off a little note to you.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

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MICHAEL W. KALUTA feature interview covering his early fans days THE SHADOW, STARSTRUCK, the STUDIO, and Vertigo cover work! Plus RAMONA FRADON talks about her 65+ years in the comic book business on AQUAMAN, METAMORPHO, SUPER-FRIENDS, and SPONGEBOB! Also JAY LYNCH reveals the WACKY PACK MEN who created the Topps trading cards that influenced an entire generation!

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Celebrating 30 years of artist’s artist MARK SCHULTZ, creator of the CADILLACS AND DINOSAURS franchise, with a feature-length, career-spanning interview conducted in Mark’s Pennsylvanian home, examining the early years of struggle, success with Kitchen Sink Press, and hitting it big with a Saturday morning cartoon series. Includes rarely-seen art and fascinating photos from Mark’s amazing and award-winning career.

A look at 75 years of Archie Comics’ characters and titles, from Archie and his pals ‘n gals to the mighty MLJ heroes of yesteryear and today’s “Dark Circle”! Also: Careerspanning interviews with The Fox’s DEAN HASPIEL and Kevin Keller’s cartoonist DAN PARENT, who both jam on our exclusive cover depicting a face-off between humor and heroes. Plus our usual features, including the hilarious FRED HEMBECK!

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Previously available only to CBA subscribers! Spotlights great DC Comics of the ‘70s: Interviews with MARK EVANIER and STEVE SHERMAN on JACK KIRBY’s Fourth World, ALEX TOTH on his mystery work, NEAL ADAMS on Superman vs. Muhammad Ali, RUSS HEATH on Sgt. Rock, BRUCE JONES discussing BERNIE WRIGHTSON (plus a WRIGHTSON portfolio), and a BRUCE TIMM interview, art gallery, and cover!

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neal adams’ ape man

Lord of the Jungle Man Gary Buckingham chats with Neal Adams about his Tarzan-inspired Illustrations by GARY BUCKINGHAM This interview originally appeared in The Burroughs Bulletin #92 [Fall, 2014].

This page: Above is Neal Adams illustration that was used for a Ballantine paperbacks box set. Inset right and bottom are the cover of the Aurora “Comic Scenes” mini-comic included in their Tarzan model kit, art by Neal Adams. Next page: Hand-colored limited edition print of Neal Adams’ Jungle Man and primate companions. Courtesy of Mike Conran.

[Neal Adams has been a professional illustrator since 1959. Many consider him to be the best comic book artist in the modern history of the medium. He has produced thousands of illustrations for comic books and strips, book covers, commercial advertising, and even designs for amusement parks. Unquestionably, his art depicting DC’s Batman, Green Lantern, and Deadman and Marvel’s X-Men and Avengers are some of the most sought-after issues in the decades-long existence of those characters. Still prolific after more than 50 years, his art is available from his website, www. nealadams.com. He continues to work the comic book convention circuit, readily accepting commissions and producing exceptional work, including new sketches of his Jungle Man. Which leads me to explain matters a bit: Of course, the character of Tarzan was created by Edgar Rice Burroughs and remains the property of ERB, Inc. While some of Neal’s artwork has been used to professionally depict Tarzan of the Apes (as exemplified by the Ballantine paperback editions of the Tarzan novels [1975–79], which included 12

covers using his art), all of his work presented here are of Neal’s “Jungle Man.” Like the rest of us, the artist is a fan of Burroughs’ work and is influenced to a greater or lesser degree by those stories. If the reader chooses to remember the Jungle Man as representative of Tarzan, that is one interpretation. Neal was interviewed on June 23, 2013, at the Albuquerque Comic Expo. —Gary Buckingham] Gary Buckingham: At what age did you first learn of the stories by Edgar Rice Burroughs and in what setting (books, movies, comic books, etc.)? Neal Adams: Well, I watched Tarzan movies from Johnny Weissmuller on; I don’t think that I missed anybody in-between. And I also worked at Coney Island as a young teenager. These penny machines, the two-penny machines in Steeplechase Park, where they played old Elmo Lincoln movies [1918–21]. Flip cards — they were animated, but were on cards — I looked at them through a kind of stereoscopic card. So I saw some of those. I’m trying to think of his name, the guy with curly hair who was an athlete in college, decathlon winner [Glenn Morris, 1936

Aurora Comics Scenes TM & © the respective copyright holder. Tarzan TM & © Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc.

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Art © Neal Adams. Courtesy of Mike Conran.

Above: Among Bob Kane’s stable of ghost artists were, from left to right, Sheldon Moldoff, George Roussos, and Jerry Robinson. Inset right: The most important contributor to the Batman mythos was writer Bill Finger, who has only been recently recognized (posthumously) as Batman’s co-creator.

Olympian gold medalist]. I’ve seen a ton of Tarzans. I’d love to have seen all the old Tarzans, but I think they are gone. I saw maybe a half-minute of Elmo Lincoln. I’d want to see a whole Elmo Lincoln Tarzan movie. But, in junior high school, I began to read Tarzan novels. Of course, I fell in love with those, as anybody would. I would give them to my friends; after I read one I would pass it around. They’re terrific. For some people, they’re not great literature. But to me, they’re classic, like reading Batman or Sherlock Homes. Gary: What was your first professionally published depiction of an ERB character — possibly the Tarzan Aurora [“Comic Scenes”] Model Kit? Neal: No, it wasn’t that. Gary: I found in The Neal Adams Treasury #2 [1979] an intended “1960s NBC Tarzan” illustration. Was that ever published? Neal: It was never published. It was a failing of mine. I didn’t realize I was actually in the running to do the ad. I thought they were hiring me to do comps [comprehensive layout—closely mimics a final creation of an illustration, for approval by decision-makers] or something for the Ron Ely TV show. Why would they give a 19-year-old the opportunity to do an illustration like that? I sort of blew it because I wasn’t taking it seriously or maybe I was too humble or whatever it was. I did very tight sketches for it, but I never got to do it. That was the first year of that television show. The Tarzan television show came out at the same time as the Star Trek show [1966]. They both came out at the same time, and I got to pick which one I was going to do. I really failed on doing the illustration, although I started on a nice 24

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Art © Neal Adams. Mediascene TM & © James Steranko/Supergraphics.

path, but they decided to use a more professional artist. I had a great time on it. Gary: So what was the first time you were professionally published with a Burroughs character? Neal: Probably when I did the covers for the Ballantine Books. Gary: Perhaps the Aurora model kit [1974] and the Ballantine Books [’75] art were done in the same time-frame. Neal: Probably in the same time; people were used to me doing that very athletic kind of character in Batman. The people that had me do those Jungle Man covers (that people called Tarzan) wanted the very kind of athletic character that I drew. Probably around the same time. Gary: What was your first fan magazine depiction of a Burroughs character [1972’s Heritage semi-pro ’zine, #1b]? Neal: Maybe. [Shown final page of silent five-page story.] Obviously, I did in this a John Carter, Flash Gordon, and a fantasy Tarzan. Gary: Which leads to my next question: how did this Heritage #1b five-page story come to be illustrated? This last page of the story also includes a Thark lying prone. Neal: I decided to do a little story, a fantasy, of transporting the body of Tarzan to Mars. For no reason that I can excuse; it just seemed like a good idea. I believe that there were five pages. And I got to do fantasy characters that I didn’t think I would get the opportunity to do. You know the idea of doing a Thark was great. It was also a fan magazine. It wasn’t the matter of doing a job or a license or anything, it was a matter of fantasy that never happened in any of the books. I just put this conglomeration together and it turned out pretty good. Gary: So that’s Flash Gordon and not Carson Napier of Venus? Neal: Nope, it’s Flash. Gary: In the color Neal Adams Portfolio, 12 plates were included [in three sets of four plates each]. Eleven of them were used as covers in the 1975 Ballantine paperback editions of Tarzan novels. How did it come about that the “Ant Men” plate was not used on a Ballantine book, and a 13th illustration that was not in your portfolio was created

Art © Neal Adams.

Previous page: Top left is plate two of The Neal Adams Portfolio, an image used for the cover of Tarzan the Invincible. On left margin are the envelope covers of The Neal Adams Portfolio set, each sporting a pencil sketch of the artist’s “Jungle Man” character. Inset bottom right is the cover of Jim Steranko’s Mediascene #20 [July 1976], which features Neal Adams’ illustration intended for Tarzan, Lord of the Jungle. This page: Plates from The Neal Adams Portfolio depicting illustrations used for the mid-1970s Ballantine Tarzan paperback series, clockwise from top left, Tarzan and the Ant Men (unused), Tarzan Triumphant, Tarzan and the Leopard Men, and Tarzan at the Earth’s Core. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

This page: Above is an in-store ad touting the ’70s Tarzan paperbacks that sported Neal Adams cover art. Inset right is the cover for the 2012 Tarzan centennial celebration book which utilizes Neal’s Return of Tarzan cover art. At bottom is pencil preliminary and finished art for Tarzan and the Lion Man. Next page: Top is Gary Buckingham [left] and Neal Adams, in Mar. 2016. Inset center is from Neal’s contribution to Heritage #1b [1972], a Flash Gordon fanzine, which features John Carter, Flash, and Tarzan in a wordless story. At bottom are three of Neal Adams’ striking Tarzan covers.

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Tarzan TM & © Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc. Art © Neal Adams.

for the Tarzan of the Apes Ballantine edition? Neal: The art director of the series was overly friendly in some ways, but kind of gruff in other ways. I told him I couldn’t get these things in on the schedule he wanted; I would get them in when I could. He got pissed off at me one day and started to yell at me. Rather than punch him out, I told him to go **** himself and I wasn’t going to do anymore; and he went and got someone else [Boris Vallejo]. I don’t like confrontations because, in general, in confrontations, if I am pushed to the limit, I get pretty mad, and I don’t like to get mad, so I backed off. Somebody that is physically not as strong as I am threatens me, it’s one of those “I don’t understand

why you’re doing this so I’m outta here.” I didn’t like the approach; I didn’t like the attitude. And he was way over the top. I’m not the type of person that likes this. Somebody approaches me in an alley… you know what? I’m good, because he wants something he’ll never get and I’m going to take his life. But I’m not in the business of this type situation, and have somebody confront me and say what they would say only in a back alley and then be forced to respond. So the guy was a jerk, so I backed away. I did the work I did and that is the end of it. Gary: I was curious why the Tarzan of the Apes Ballantine image was not in your portfolio. Neal: Because I didn’t consider the portfolio to be Tarzan of the Apes. Because now, at this point, he needs to be my Jungle Man, different from what everybody else did. We were doing portfolios with Sal Quartuccio, and I felt what I was going to do was try to finish them up and maybe do another [set for the] portfolio, just for my own sake. And that would be part of the portfolio. Gary: I have them, the three-part portfolio: sets A, B, and C. Neal: It would have been Set D. It would have been another set. I intended to do four parts because I had done enough work on another set to finish it up; so I have Monkey Man coming out of the side of the wall… Gary: There is another one that hasn’t been printed very much; was that part of the set [showing him the image from Savage II in a “landscape” view]? Neal: Yes, it goes like this [turning the image to a “portrait” view]. Gary: So, this was going to be part of portfolio Set D; what were the other two images? Neal: You keep turning it. It goes like this [turning image to “portrait” orientation]. The guy in a knight’s outfit; you must have seen it—been printed — and my Jungle Man, the horse is rearing up. [Now showing Neal a few reproduced images.] That’s not part of it… let me see… Yeah, there was the wall, there’s this, then there’s the knight in armor and the Jungle Man is facing him. What was the fourth one? Gary: I’ve never seen the knight image myself. Neal: Really, it was printed in one of those black-&-white newspaper magazines that Jim Steranko [published]. Gary: Perhaps The Steranko History of Comics, or Mediascene magazine; I haven’t read my copies yet. Neal: It was right on the cover [of Mediascene #20, July 1976]. I’m surprised if it’s not on our website, because we put it up. Gary: Okay. On the cover of the 2007 Art of Neal Adams Calendar Portfolio, there’s . . . Neal: That’s the fourth. This would be the fourth. Gary: That was published later. Neal: But it was not on a book. It was just a drawing I did.

Gary: So it is not finished. Neal: No, that’s a comp. But I think that I would have gone better. Once I did that I said, “Nah, that is broken up into too many panels,” but I wasn’t given an opportunity to take it further than that. They rejected it. Gary: It’s a nice depiction of several images. Neal: Yeah, it is, but that’s all it is. How fast did I do your commission? Gary: In about 45 minutes, but I really wasn’t paying attention. You were interrupted a few times. Neal: Yes I was, but in my hotel room I could have finished it in half the time. And it was a pretty good drawing. Gary: Yes, top-notch. Final question: Do you have any upcoming projects, Burroughsrelated? Neal: Not really. I could probably do stuff, if the Burroughs people were forthcoming. [See next page for a listing of Neal Adams’ Jungle Man appearances.]

Tarzan, John Carter TM & © Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc. Flash Gordon TM & © King Features Syndicate. Art © Neal Adams,

Gary: The Jungle Man seems to be walking through a swamp. What was the inspiration for this depiction, was it a new setting? Neal: No, I was actually trying to do a T-shirt design. And I thought, “How do I do a T-shirt design and have it blend into black?” The idea is to do a T-shirt design on black, so, if you look at the design, you can see that all the trees go into black. You don’t want to have boxes in the edge of your illustration, so if everything goes to black then it becomes like a hole; so that’s the idea. The idea is to be able to design something that will go into black. This is my Jungle Man coming through the hole toward us and black is on the outside. Gary: Of the Neal Adams illustrations possibly inspired by an ERB story or character, do you have a favorite of all of those? Neal: I don’t think I have a favorite. Anybody who reads Tarzan pretty much likes them all. I don’t think people love when he’s primitive and wants to marry an ape; that’s a little queasy. And then when he gets into the fantasy and into Pellucidar and all the rest of that stuff, it’s still a little crazy. I don’t have a favorite. But I followed it to Korak and all the rest of it. I don’t have a favorite, really. Gary: In their depictions of ERB characters, do you like one artist (beside yourself) more than any other? Neal: I think that Frazetta made some attempts, but I don’t think he was given the opportunity. So some of the things that he did were good, but he didn’t really get to his own until he did Conan. So he never quite got there. Yet he had Tarzan leaping through the trees with his feet tucked up; that was great. Don’t you feel the same way about Tarzan? You pretty much like them all. And you like the evolutionary process. You know, I feel sometimes that I did a better Tarzan by omission of other people doing a good Tarzan, than by any other reason. I hate to be critical of other artists, but I just feel they did such a horrible job in a way, that mine stand out. I would prefer to see more competition in doing that stuff. [Now shown the Wallbusters poster image.] A little playful. [Wallbusters series.] I know what that was for. I believe it was for 3-D posters. And that’s why it is 3D-ish. [Showing the 1966 NBC-TV comp drawing.] That is the Ron Ely.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

The Jungle Man Index Gary Buckingham’s charts the myriad appearances of Neal Adams’ savage ape man 1

Flash Meets the Warrior

unreleased

Comprehensive artwork (1966) for NBC’s TV series, Tarzan

1979

The Neal Adams Treasury 2 [Pure Imagination]

2017

The Neal Adams Vintage Sketchbook [Continuity; b&w]

1972

Heritage Magazine #1b — pg. 48 [Bruce Hershenson; five pages, b&w]

1976

The Neal Adams Treasury 1 [Pure Imagination; five pages, b&w]

Savage One, Lion Zero

1974

Aurora Comic Scenes Tarzan Instruction Booklet [Aurora; six pages]

Man, Woman, Ape

1975

Tarzan of the Apes [Ballantine; paperback edition]

1976

The Neal Adams Treasury 1 [Pure Imagination; back cover]

1960s NBC Tarzan

unreleased

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set D [Sal Quartuccio; planned but unproduced]

2007

The Art of Neal Adams Calendar Portfolio [Vanguard; month of February]

2010

The Neal Adams Savage 2 Sketch Book [Continuity; b&w]

2012

Tarzan: The Centennial Celebration [Titan; pg. 21]

1975

The Return of Tarzan [Ballantine; paperback edition]

1975

The Art of Neal Adams, Vol. 1 [Sal Quartuccio; sketch]

1978

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set A [Sal Quartuccio; plate three]

2012

Tarzan: The Centennial Celebration [Titan; cover, pg. 30]

1975

The Beasts of Tarzan [Ballantine; paperback edition]

1978

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set A [Sal Quartuccio; plate one]

2012

Tarzan: The Centennial Celebration [Titan; pg. 39]

1975

The Son of Tarzan [Ballantine; paperback edition]

1978

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set A [Sal Quartuccio; plate four]

2012

Tarzan: The Centennial Celebration [Titan; pg. 49]

1975

Tarzan and the Jewels of Opar [Ballantine; paperback edition]

1979

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set B [Sal Quartuccio; plate six]

2012

Tarzan: The Centennial Celebration [Titan; pg. 57]

1975

Jungle Tales of Tarzan [Ballantine; paperback edition]

1979

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set B [Sal Quartuccio; plate five]

2012

Tarzan: The Centennial Celebration [Titan; pg. 67]

1975

Tarzan at the Earth’s Core [Ballantine; paperback edition]

1984

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set C [Sal Quartuccio; plate 11]

2012

Tarzan: The Centennial Celebration [Titan; pg. 107]

1975

Tarzan the Invincible [Ballantine; paperback edition]

1978

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set A [Sal Quartuccio; plate two]

2012

Tarzan: The Centennial Celebration [Titan; pg. 119]

Hyena

1975

Tarzan Triumphant [Ballantine; paperback edition]

Quiet Raging Jungle Death

1984

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set C [Sal Quartuccio; plate 10]

2012

Tarzan: The Centennial Celebration [Titan; pg. 125]

1975

Tarzan and the City of Gold [Ballantine; paperback edition]

1979

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set B [Sal Quartuccio; plate eight]

2012

Tarzan: The Centennial Celebration [Titan; pg. 130]

Lion on a Spear

Untitled

Escape

Baby Food

Savage Archer

Untitled

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Untitled

1975

Tarzan and the Lion Man [Ballantine; paperback edition]

1979

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set B [Sal Quartuccio; plate seven]

2003

The Burroughs Bulletin # 55 (new series) [Henry G. Franke; back cover]

2012

Tarzan: The Centennial Celebration [Titan; pg. 139]

Whirlwind

1975

Tarzan and the Leopard Men [Ballantine; paperback edition]

Slashing Rage

1984

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set C [Sal Quartuccio; plate 12]

The Washing Machine

2002

The Burroughs Bulletin # 50 (new series) [Henry G. Franke; pg. 8 (B&W)

2010

The Art of Neal Adams Collectors Edition [Vanguard; pg. 58]

2012

Tarzan: The Centennial Celebration [Titan; pg. 145]

2018

NealAdams.com Exclusive Sketchbook [Continuity; front cover]

1976

The Neal Adams Treasury 1 [Pure Imagination; sketch]

1978

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set A [Sal Quartuccio; folder cover]

1979

The Neal Adams Treasury 2 [Pure Imagination; inside back cover sketch]

Revenge (pencil rough)

2010

The Art of Neal Adams Collectors Edition [Vanguard; cover, pencil rough, pg. five]

Crouching Death

1978

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set A [Sal Quartuccio; envelope cover]

2010

The Neal Adams Savage 2 Sketch Book [Continuity]

Leaving Home

Untitled

1979

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set B [Sal Quartuccio; envelope cover]

Going Ape

1984

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set C [Sal Quartuccio; envelope cover]

2006

Jason Adams bronze casting and painted statue

1976

The Neal Adams Treasury 1 [Pure Imagination; front cover]

1984

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set C [Sal Quartuccio; plate nine]

20 21

Untitled Man, Tail, Fight

Noble Savage

Jungle Master

Untitled

I Told You He’d Come

unreleased

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set D [planned, unproduced]

2010

The Neal Adams Savage 2 Sketch Book [Continuity; b&w]

2010

The Art of Neal Adams Collectors Edition Bonus Folio 16 [Continuity]

unreleased

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set D [planned, unproduced]

1976

The Neal Adams Treasury 1 [Pure Imagination; b&w]

1976

Mediascene # 20 [Supergraphics; front cover]

2010

The Neal Adams Savage 2 Sketch Book [Continuity; b&w]

2015

The Art of Neal Adams 2015 Sketch Book [Continuity; front cover]

1978–82

National Cartoonists Society Presents The Portfolio of Fine Comic Art (limited edition of 25 has Neal Adams hand-colored plate)

2014

The Burroughs Bulletin # 92 (new series) [Henry G. Franke; front cover]

2018

Comic Book Creator #18 [TwoMorrows; pg. 23]

1977

Wallbusters Tarzan Poster, 38" x 50"

1979

The Neal Adams Treasury 2 [Pure Imagination; b&w]

unreleased

The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set D [planned, unproduced]

2007

The Art of Neal Adams Calendar Portfolio [Vanguard; cover, month of June]

2010

The Art of Neal Adams Collectors Edition Bonus Folio 1 [Continuity]

Panther

1978

Limited edition print included in The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set A signed edition

Untitled

1979

Limited edition print included in The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set B signed edition

Equestrian

1984

Limited edition print included in The Neal Adams Portfolio, Set C signed edition

Shiny Stones

unreleased 1984

Neal Adams unused painting Echo of Futurepast # 1 [Continuity; front cover]

ABOUT GARY BUCKINGHAM: “An electrical engineer for decades,” Gary writes, “I decided to expand my reading and collecting interests into writing and editing (26 books to date) fiction. My authorized book Tarzan and the Lion of Judah should be published within the year and I continue to line edit The Wild Adventures of Edgar Rice Burroughs book series.” COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

darrick patrick’s ten questions

Mike ‘Badger’ Baron

CBC’s new interview column debuts with a chat with the frequent Rude collaborator (Re)introducing…

Comic Book Creator is happy to debut Darrick Patrick’s regular Q+A feature to our line-up! Darrick had just joined the ACE: All Comics Evaluated team — the monthly Ye Ed helmed a few years back — when we had to unfortunately shut down that mag due to low sales. But now the father of twins Logann and Nola is back in the fold! To learn more about the writer, look for his autobiographical piece on page 95 of this ish!

Inset right: Mike Baron and his friendly Bathound. Below: The writer is likely best known as co-creator (with this issue’s cover subject, Steve Rude) of Nexus, as well as the creator of The Badger, which debuted in its first issue in Sept. 1983. Cover art by Steve Rude (pencils) and Jeffrey Butler (inks).

Mike Baron is a professional writer who has worked on numerous comic book titles such as Nexus, The Punisher, Badger, The Flash, Star Wars, Action Comics, Hawk and Dove, Dark Horse Presents, Spyke, Q-Ball, etc. He is also an author of various novels, including Helmet Head, Banshees, Whack Job, Skorpio, and the Bad Road Rising series. Darrick Patrick: What was the journey that led you to writing professionally as a career? Mike Baron: As a wee lad growing up in Mitchell, South Dakota, I was an avid reader. One day as I stood outside a smoke shop with the latest Travis McGee adventure, I thought, “I’m buying this guy’s books. This is what I want to do for a living.” When I was in college I visited Mark Knopf, editor of the local revolutionary rag, Takeover. There were hundreds of brand new albums on the floor. “Where’d you get these records?” I asked. Mark said, “The record companies send them to us. If you’re willing to write something about them, you can have them.” I staggered home with as many records as I could carry. After graduation, I moved to Boston and began writing for Boston After Dark, later Boston Phoenix, and Fusion, almost immediately. But I always wanted to write fiction and kept at it. Darrick: Who are some of the people that greatly influenced you while growing up? Mike: Blake Kellogg, Tom Delaney, Ellen Jo Baron, and Peter Brandvold. Darrick: Do you have any words of advice for other individuals looking to make a career with their abilities in writing? Mike: You must write every day. Every would-be writer has a million bad words clogging up his system. You have to get rid of them before you get to the good stuff. Show, don’t tell, and be original. Darrick: How do you spend your time on a typical workday? Mike: Get up, make coffee, go to computer, futz around, start writing. Before the internet, I would just start

writing. I knock off around 10:30 and will return to it later in the day. I always carry a pen and pad to jot things down. Darrick: For new readers who may not be familiar with your work, what are some projects of yours that you would recommend to begin with? Mike: Dark Horse’s 12-volume Nexus Archives, also available in the much cheaper Omnibus editions, which was done with Steve Rude. The Dude and I have been friends for over 35 years. We could not be more different. He is tall; I am short. He likes to chew over questions for hours; I like to spit them out. Our methods have changed since he moved away, but he’s still knocking it out of the park. Wait until you see what we have lined up through Dark Horse. Any Badger books that you can get. IDW put out four collected volumes, and my most recent Badgers are available as a trade paperback titled Battle of the Five Wizards, from First Comics. We just published Q-Ball, an espionage/martial arts thriller, illustrated by explosive newcomer Barry McClain Jr. Check out our Q-Ball Facebook page. Also, my books Whack Job and Skorpio. I have reinvented myself as a novelist. I am working on my seventh Josh Pratt novel in the Bad Road Rising series. Josh Pratt is a reformed motorcycle hoodlum who found God in prison and is determined to turn his life around. The novels are Biker, Sons of Privilege, Not Fade Away, Sons of Bitches, Buffalo Hump, and Bloodline. Facebook won’t let me promote Sons of Bitches because they find the title offensive. Buffalo Hump and Bloodline will be released this coming fall. Publishers Weekly gave my horror novel Banshees a starred review: Veteran comics writer Baron (Nexus) slays with this epic and brutal novel. A new band with the look and sound of an old satanic metal group called the Banshees blazes onto the music scene decades after the original trio died in a plane crash. A concert flyer leads impoverished musician Ian St. James, the son of the Banshees’ drummer, from a hangover in his Prague hotel room to the shocking discovery of his long-dead rock star father performing with the rest of the Banshees at a Czech club. He demands to see his father but ends up drugged and screaming in a car compactor, from which he only narrowly escapes. The reanimated Banshees attract a cult following. Each gig results in the death or disappearance of someone in the crowd, and soon Ian is lured into helping ambitious reporter Connie Cosgrove score the story of a lifetime. Baron’s smart dialogue propels his globe-trotting characters along in a charismatic ballad of carnage. Horror buffs and metal fans will marvel at every grinding detail in this meaty, grim fantasy. (BookLife) Darrick: Who are a few of the people in the comics industry that you hold a high deal of respect for? Mike: Milton Griepp and John Davis, who were my first publishers, Carl Potts, my editor at Marvel, Mike Gold, my

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Badger TM & © Mike Baron.

by DARRICK PATRICK

Bad Road Rising TM & © Mike Baron. Nexus TM & © Mike Baron & Steve Rude.

editor at DC and ComicMix, Steve Rude, Wayne Winsett (Time Warp Comics, in Boulder,) retailer Bruce Ayers, Dean Zachary, Bill Reinhold, Neil Hanson, Paul Levitz, Mike Richardson, Steven Butler, Diana Schutz, Shawna Gore, Paul Smith, Stephen Bissette, Mike Oeming, Mike Allred, Barb Kaalberg, Mark Nelson… oh honey, don’t let me commence! Darrick: Outside of constructing stories, what are your other interests? Mike: Cycling, martial arts, movies, books, and dogs. Darrick: What is your oldest memory?

Mike: Wandering naked down the street from my home in Madison, Wisconsin, toward a drug store that sold comics. I was about four years old. Darrick: Tell us something about you that most people don’t know. Mike: I’m a really good cook. Darrick: If you were the last person alive on Earth, what do you think you’d do to entertain yourself? Mike: Blow things up!

Top: The covers for Mike Baron’s Bad Road Rising series of novels starring the Wisconsin-based “Badass Biker Detective,” Josh Pratt, available as an e-book on Google Books and Kindle. Right: Sundra Peele and Nexus as depicted by Steve Rude on the back cover of Nexus: Nightmare in Blue #4 [Oct. 1997].

Advertise With Us! RetroFan & BrickJournal Ad Rates: Back cover or inside cover: $1000 ($900 for two or more) Full-page interior: $800 ($700 for two or more) Half-page interior: $500 ($425 for two or more) Quarter-page interior: $300 ($250 for two or more)

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rich buckler’s astonishing tale

The Days of Deathlok Part two of CBC ’s epic chat with the late Rich Buckler discusses his “Demolisher” Conducted by MICHAEL AUSHENKER CBC Associate Editor

Above: The debut of Deathlok the Demolisher, perhaps the greatest creation of Rich Buckler’s career, was an explosive event during the mid-’70s when the dystopian series first appeared, in Astonishing Tales #25 [Aug. 1974]. Inset right: Rich Buckler commission art featuring Deathlok. Below: Cover detail of the man/ machine, pencils and inks by Rich Buckler, from Astonishing Tales #26 [Oct. ’74].

and “Black Panther” features. That’s because, like Miller, Buckler was a very gifted, cinematic storyteller, and, for sure in the post-apocalyptic sci-fi of Astonishing Tales and social-justice fiction of Jungle Action, he could also be pioneering, foundational and vital. Perhaps it’s time we place “Buckler” in that top tier of surnames.—M.A.] Comic Book Creator: Arguably, you are best known for your work with Doug Moench on “Deathlok the Demolisher”; your dream book, Fantastic Four; and your run with Don McGregor on “Black Panther.” But what do you see as your crowning run? Rich Buckler: At the top of my list would be my run on Astonishing Tales with the character I created called Deathlok. But I say that with one caveat: It was creatively rewarding overall, but I’m saying that while overlooking all the frustrations and silly nonsense that happened on that series. This was, some 40 years ago, but my memories of those times are still fresh. Probably all of my favorites are fan favorites too. So, that would include my penciling on Fantastic Four, The Avengers, and “Black Panther,” definitely. Also my later collaborations with Roy Thomas, at Marvel in the late ’80s, Saga of the Sub-Mariner and Saga of the Original Human Torch. CBC: What about your DC work? Rich: I’m especially proud of the work I did with Roy on All-Star Squadron. Also my run on World’s Finest, the Superman Versus Shazam! tabloid, and the DC Presents appearances of Captain Marvel. All of my work with Roy Thomas, as a matter of fact! CBC: Any other work you would single out?

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Astonishing Tales, Deathlok the Demolisher TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

[Kirby. Ditko. Eisner. Kubert. Wood. Romita. Buscema. Colan. Adams. Wrightson. Miller. Their names are legend, their art — pioneering, foundational and vital. Growing up in the Bronze Age, we all knew and loved the work that these great pillars of mainstream comic books blessed us with; the meat and potatoes of 20th century American comics. But then there was the candy! Those solid, sometimes underrated or under the radar, unabashedly fun artists who churned out issues for Marvel and DC, and kept those spinner racks spinning. Stalwart guys like Frank Robbins, Ross Andru, Tony DeZuñiga, Gerry Talaoc and, most certainly, Rich Buckler. Even though rumors spread that Buckler had been ill in recent years, it was still a mighty, Kirby-fisted gut punch when I learned on May 19, 2017, that he had passed, age 68. I had long followed Buckler on Facebook, where the penciler, inker, painter, and instructor extraordinaire often shared his most personal moments, from his private paintings to his favorite convention run-ins. I originally interviewed Rich Buckler for the “Men of Steel” issue of our sister publication, Back Issue [Nov. 2007]. My mission: to learn what the F was up with that Deathlok the Demolisher series in the early 1970s — perhaps the funkiest, oddest, bleakest, and most downright prescient series Marvel had ever published. In fact, that was all we discussed in a phone conversation from Buckler’s New York home. It was easily—and I’m not just saying this honorifically — the most electric of my sundry conversations with creators for TwoMorrows Publications because Buckler told excellent anecdotes filled with vivid detail, acerbic wit, and, above all, blunt candor. Buckler may have emerged from the hippie era, but he was truly punk in spirit. So you’re in for a treat because the following interview, conducted by email a few years before his death, is nearly as spellbinding and illuminating as listening to the man talk. It’s no accident that, before he famously embellished Frank Miller on Daredevil and The Dark Knight Returns, Klaus Janson was at his best inking Buckler on those “Deathlok”

Deathlok the Demolisher TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Photo portrait © Kendall Whitehouse

Rich: Again, for Marvel during Jim Shooter’s tenure, my collaborations with Peter David on Spectacular Spider-Man. Oh, also include in that list my work at Archie Comics on Mighty Crusaders and the entire Red Circle line of titles in the ’80s that I was instrumental in creating. CBC: Weren’t you Red Circle’s managing editor? Rich: I was managing editor for Red Circle, and I was given carte blanche on my own book as editor, writer, and artist. That was a sheer labor of love. CBC: Getting back to Deathlok, what is Doug Moench’s relationship to the character? Rich: I would like to get into a few areas I haven’t touched upon in interviews before. To start with: who created the character? Let me point out right off for those fans who don’t know this, that Doug Moench did not create Deathlok. (Sorry, Wikipedia: you got it wrong… Well, that wouldn’t be the first time for them.) For the record, Doug worked on that book as a writer for the first three issues, but he did not create the character. I did. I know he is sometimes credited as that by well-meaning fans and on some comics fan websites he is listed as “co-creator.” But that’s a stretch too. In fact I don’t think Doug has ever laid claim to this. Not that I have heard about anyway. One need only to check the credits for Deathlok’s first appearance in Astonishing Tales #25. The credits read, “Rich Buckler, Plot & Concept.” CBC: Yes, I remember that credit. Rich: I shouldn’t have to point out what seems to be obvious, but “concept” means created. The terms are practically synonymous. So where in that entire run in Astonishing Tales is there a credit that reads “Doug Moench, creator” or “co-creator”? Or “concept”? Don’t misunderstand me: I’m not belittling Doug’s contribution. So all you Doug Moench fans, don’t get ready to lynch me! Actually it was very cool working with Doug. He is one of my favorite writers. I’m just trying to be clear on this one point. The character and concept for Deathlok were from my imagination and it was my creation from the start. It was my show from the very beginning, even before I met Doug. CBC: So how does Doug Moench figure into the creation of Deathlok? Rich: I did some brainstorming with Doug at his place when we worked up a formal presentation for Marvel, and Doug then wrote up the final draft of the proposal that I submitted to Roy Thomas for approval. That’s how it was done for something new. You had to work up a character design and an outline for the story. But that’s not how it always was. It used to be very fast and loose. Imagine, if you will, a formal presentation for the creation of the Fantastic Four or Iron Man or X-Men or Thor. You would have to imagine it… because it never happened. So with Deathlok I even revised the concept myself, several times. And then, by the time Doug and I met, things just needed to be fine-tuned and organized a bit. Two sample pages were drawn up for the initial presentation. One splash and one action page. That art was subsequently used as pages one and two of the first story. I designed the character’s look and Deathlok’s asymmetric costume and helmet — even the color scheme. Also, I designed the logo for the book and came up with all of the rest of the characters. And about that formal presentation: in the process of doing that, Doug threw me for a loop at the last moment and he unexpectedly changed the name of the title character. Did you know that? CBC: Yes, I think you discussed it in our conversation for Back Issue! Rich: My original name for the character was Deadlock. But naming a character and creating a character is not the

same thing. CBC: So Doug Moench created the name “Deathlok” off your original “Deadlock”? Rich: It’s funny, that name sounds kind of clunky now, doesn’t it? Deadlock. So it’s a good thing I wasn’t married to it. But it still would have worked. Luther Manning, Mike Travers, Simon Ryker, and all of the rest of the characters were named by me. And I had nothing to do with the name “Demolisher.” That was pretty much gratuitous and was tacked on to the name as an afterthought by editorial. CBC: That sounds a lot like Stan Lee’s input, or Roy Thomas trying to sound like Stan. Rich: For Marvel, it was always The “Mighty” Thor, the “Amazing” Spider-Man, Conan “the Barbarian,” and so on. I was even given a nickname: “Roarin’ Rich Buckler.” Remember “Joltin’” Joe Sinnott and “Rascally” Roy Thomas? So we got Deathlok “the Demolisher.” That was an entirely useless cognomen, which I worked around and ignored completely. CBC: I like it, actually. Guess I’m used to it. Rich: Just to further elaborate, here is another thing that it might be helpful to know. I had a contract with Marvel for this property. Doug did not. We “co-plotted” the first story, and Doug’s writing consisted of dialogue and some story elements and a few character ideas, like Warwolf. On those first few issues, Doug “scripted” my art pages after I had drawn them, which is actually the “Marvel way” or “Marvel style.” Maybe I should explain that, because the words “script” and “plotted” or “plot” can be a bit ambiguous too. What the term means in this instance is the actual story line in a brief summary. That was what was called the “plot”. So if the story was “co-plotted,” that meant at least two people collaborated on the initial storyline. CBC: What about the writers who followed Moench on “Deathlok”? Rich: When I worked on “Deathlok” with writers, like I did with Bill Mantlo or David Kraft, the writer would follow my “cues” and story notes. On “Deathlok,” I dutifully put those in the margins of all of the art pages, just like Jack Kirby would do. That’s how “Deathlok” was done from the beginning. I would draw the entire story with

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Above: Detail of Buckler’s Astonishing Tales #34 splash. Below: Kendall Whitehouse captured the late comics creator Rich Buckler in this photo taken at the New York Comic Con, in 2013.

all comics artists can. However, whenever I was working from a script, I always interpreted and elaborated on what was written, rather than follow everything to a “t.” The work that I did at DC with Roy, that was done “Marvel style.” Also, that 72-page tabloid size Superman Versus Shazam! comic I drew in collaboration with Gerry Conway — also “Marvel style.” CBC: Do you see yourself as a writer, too? Rich: I’m not known to comics fans as a writer. That’s not because I don’t know what I’m doing. I started out writing my own stories as well as illustrating them. I just didn’t do a lot of it. And the same goes for inking. I could ink my own work, and I did ink my own work and the work of other pencil artists whenever time permitted. I’m known mostly as a penciler because that was my focus. The pencil stage of comics production is the most challenging and engaging, but for me it’s also the most creatively satisfying. Incidentally, it is also the most time-consuming. CBC: American comic books have always perpetuated this assembly line process. Rich: Let’s examine those categories for artists for a moment: like “layouts” or “breakdowns,” or “penciler” or “inker” or “embellisher.” Ever wonder about that? That all started with Marvel and DC in the early super-hero days. “More, better, cheaper, faster,” anyone? Those are designations for specialized compartments of comic book art production that were imposed on comics creators. Not so much because every artist specialized. It was mostly done for the purpose of maximizing production. That whole system, when you think about it, is very artificial and really not very intuitive or exacting. Nor is it even preferable from an artist’s standpoint. I can see where it made business sense. One guy could be penciling while another artist did the inking, there would be time overlap, so doing it that way sort of compressed production time. That was done so everyone could work in an assembly line fashion and keep busy all the time. If that description sounds anything like a “sweat shop”, well, that’s only #18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Deathlok the Demolisher TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

my story notes in the margins, like I just said, and the writer would build on that. Or, I would just write the story as I drew the pages. The artists who were working the “Marvel way” in those days were all drawing their art pages like they were silent movies. No dialogue or narration. Just pictures. And literally, the pictures had to tell the story. I’m sure most fans aren’t aware of that aspect drawing the comics. At Marvel, the storytelling part of the drawing was crucial, so the pencil artist’s job was to work up the visual storytelling. The panel arrangement and page layout, and so on, that was all worked up from a short typewritten story summary. Things like story pacing, “acting” of the characters, the action sequences, and how the scenes played were essentially the artist’s domain. After the story was given a solid and clearly delineated visual structure, only then did the writer add the words to the penciled comics pages. That’s how I worked on Fantastic Four, Thor, The Avengers, and “Black Panther” — on all of the Marvel work I drew. That’s how all their artists worked. So actually the pencil artists like Jack Kirby or John Buscema or Gene Colan or Herb Trimpe were in a very real sense “co-storytellers.” Nobody worked from a full script. Nowadays at Marvel it’s all full script, I believe. CBC: What about over at DC? Rich: Over at DC Comics, things were quite different. Their artists worked mostly from a full script. At Marvel, I often got my story plot from the writer. At DC, the editor gave you the script. A comic book script would be something that resembles a screenplay or a film treatment with dialogue included. I have gone into more detail on this in my book How to Draw Dynamic Comic Books, by the way. So, at DC Comics, the page and panel descriptions, dialogue and captions, that was all written out on typewritten pages for the artist to follow. The artist would pencil in the writer’s dialogue and captions on the art pages as a guide for the letterer. CBC: Which did you prefer? The Marvel method or the DC way? Rich: I preferred the Marvel method, but I could work both ways. Not

Deathlok the Demolisher TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

because that’s close to what it actually was. Enough about that… I want to get back to Deathlok and how that concept came into being. The concept of a futuristic cyborg super-soldier was just an idea I carried around in my head, months before Roy introduced me to Doug at the Marvel offices. It kept growing, first as an initial rough idea, and then as more time went by I started to develop it into a whole concept and storyline. Honestly, when I first thought up the whole thing, I didn’t know what I was going to do with it. Marvel sure wasn’t looking for new characters. They had plenty of them already! No one invited me either. “Hey Rich, got any new ideas?” Deathlok wasn’t meant originally to even be a comic book. Initially I was thinking of developing it into a novel. CBC: So how did it become a comic? Rich: Around this time I was beginning to get a strong urge to do something new in comics. It was the same impulse I had when I created new comics during my amateur fanzine publishing days. Only stronger. And now I could do it on another level. So I was ready to start creating my own material and to continue exploring my cinematic-type narrative techniques. At this juncture, that kind of creative move was probably inevitable. I had a lot on my mind, too. So all I needed was an outlet or platform to express myself. There was a plenitude of ideas to explore! And I did have some writing skills. So, why not go for it? I could freely explore some of those ideas I had that dealt with cybernetics, mind control, cloning, closed-circuit and satellite surveillance, virtual reality, the computer/ human interface, the New World Order, trans-humanism, secret government experiments and programs, runaway technology and artificial intelligence, and the military industrial complex that President Eisenhower actually had warned us about when I was in elementary school, plus a whole lot more. All of those things I just mentioned--they’re topical now. But this was back in 1974. CBC: It’s amazing how timeless and prescient your “Deathlok” feature was. Rich: So that was where I was coming from as a writer. I had a lot to say about a lot of things. I was following suit with all of my favorite science-fiction writers — Philip K. Dick, Aldous Huxley, Alfred Bester, Harlan Ellison… They all published stories that made people think and question reality. Probably many of the comics writers and artists in comics from my generation had read George Orwell’s 1984. I’m sure that they did, actually, because a recurring joke around the office would very often be: “Watch out! Big Brother is watching!” But to them it was a joke or it was just something to say. For me, it was spot on. That book was first published in 1948, which was the year before I was born. I remember that it was required reading in high school, and it has stayed with me all of these years. If you will recall, in the fascist Big Brother state that Orwell wrote about, where Big Brother was watching everyone, anyone who questioned anything was considered intellectually dangerous. I could definitely relate to that. I was born curious. I’m curious every day. And I question everything. And in our time, I think Big Brother has arrived. Deathlok was created in 1974. That was almost 40 years ago. But, to me, it seems like only a year or two ago. CBC: Can you touch on some of the vicissitudes of being a comics creator? Rich: At that time Roy Thomas was editor-in-chief at Marvel. In those days, because of the demands of that job, he was constantly busy and not very accessible. I remember accosting Roy in the hallway as he came out of his office one busy afternoon. He was deep in thought. While he was walking he was focused on something he was reading. I said, “Excuse me, Roy. Can I interrupt you for a moment?” And he replied: “Well, that’s probably the only way you can get to see me these days. So interrupt away.” He listened to my pitch, which I kept short and to the point. And it was only

a few weeks later that I remember him saying the magic words, that it was a go. The only question was where to put it. Astonishing Tales had an opening and Roy suggested that. He met me in the office hallway one afternoon and he told me: “So you’ve got the green light, but it won’t be a Deathlok #1, with his own title, and it’s a bi-monthly opening. Does that sound okay?” And I said: “Let’s go for it!” Roy gave the go ahead on that before he even saw the written proposal! So really it was Roy who made the series even possible! When you think about it, that was quite an act of faith on his part. All things considered, it was amazing that Deathlok had the run that it did. Creatively, it was one crazy roller coaster of a ride, and not at all of it was smooth sailing. But I’ll be getting to more about that later. For the most part, I was given complete creative freedom to do whatever I wanted. I got to hand-pick the people I worked with--writers, colorists, inkers, letterers. CBC: Did anyone have a clue what you were concocting? I mean, it was so subversive. Rich: Nobody besides Doug really knew what I was up to. I’m not one of those guys that talks about what he is going to do. I just do it. So nobody had a clue how dark and how violent the content of that book was going to be. Did I say dark? Yes, it was. And then some. It was somber, relentlessly serious in tone, dystopian, and almost unrelentingly

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Previous page: On left is unused splash page layout for Astonishing Tales #26 [Oct. ’74] by Buckler; and at right is unused pencil poster layout by the same. This page: 1976 commission piece by R.B. and AT #31 [Aug. ’75] cover, sporting art by Ed Hannigan (pencils) and Bernie Wrightson (inks).

pessimistic about the future of mankind. It was all going into a comic book, but that was not normally where a reader might run across anything so prescient and foreboding. This was definitely not light entertainment. And that was because I wanted to do stories that were purposeful and provocative and that made people think. From the start of it I was very focused in terms of where I wanted to take things. I had a very clear idea of how the character’s story would unfold. Not just his origin. So it was quite grim. But really, if you’re going to combine technology with science gone mad, as I did, and the product of that is a computer-driven monster — well, that’s not going to read like a standard super-hero book, that’s for sure! And of course Deathlok was never a super-hero. Not my version of him anyway. Because I never meant for it to fit into that milieu. Okay, Deathlok had a costume. And he looked like a bizarre super-hero. But that was as far as that went. Super-hero was definitely not his genre. Now I don’t know if Stan Lee actually wrote any of the cover copy back then. Probably he didn’t. But I suspect that even Stan didn’t know what Deathok was all about. So the cover blurb that appeared on the cover of the origin

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Deathlok the Demolisher TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

This page: Above is original art page from Astonishing Tales #34 [Mar. 1976], with pencils by Rich Buckler and inks by Klaus Janson. Next page: Top right is the Deathlok figurine sculpted by Randy Bowen; below right is promotional graphic for ABC’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., featuring the Marvel TV show’s version of Deathlok, played by J. August Richards; and inset center is the brief glimpse we see of the “Buckler version,” from season one. Page 38: Shaun Clancy shared this commission piece by Rich Buckler of the artist’s trademark creation, Deathlok. Page 39: Pencils for an unused splash page intended for the “Dead Reckoning” installment starring the Demolisher himself in Astonishing Tales #27 [Dec. 1974]. Courtesy of Kelvin Mao.

issue was put to the reader in the form of a question. “Is he man, machine or monster?” Well, the copywriter seemed to be hedging his bets with that, because without question Deathlok was all three. Of course, I was aware that everything about that concept was so dire and bleak and pessimistic, and it was so not like any of the rest of the Marvel books . It was almost downright depressing. But I wasn’t depressed when I wrote it. For me it was science fiction, not fantasy and not super-hero melodrama. Still, it was very dark and I thought about that once the book was completed. So, in the debut appearance, we ran a tongue-in-cheek back-up feature about how the character came about. Not how Deathlok was actually created. It was just a goof, drawn in a “cartoon style” and done to offset the seriousness of the book. I did the layouts for it and I gave George Pérez his first break and had him do the penciling. Giving a new guy work was not an unusual move for me. During my career, I have helped quite a number of artists to get their first breaks. CBC: We interviewed one of your former apprentices, Denys Cowan, in CBC #4. Rich: Only a few years later at an independent company, I printed Jim Lee’s first comics work. Did you know that? CBC: Not until right now. Rich: And here is another little known fact. I also gave drawing lessons by mail to Todd McFarlane and I showed his earliest art samples to the editors at Marvel. It might be a good idea to go into some details about my work methods just to give you some idea of what it was like and how I was working in those days. My set up in my home was pretty basic. Nothing high tech. I had an adjustable drawing table and chair, pencils and erasers and a pencil sharpener, and a supply of paper that the company always replenished. That was it. If I had to work on something in ink, I went out to the art shop and got materials for that as the need arose. So, it was nothing elaborate or special, nothing to brag about. I had no strict scheduling of my work hours. My workday consisted of usually at least 10 to 12 hours per day of actual drawing. But I took lots of breaks. What I would do — I don’t know how other guys did it — but I would draw my story pages at home mostly in the evening, and sometimes that meant working on into the wee hours of early morning. In the daylight hours on weekdays, I would travel from the Bronx to Manhattan to the Marvel offices, and there I would work on whatever cover assignments John Romita threw at me. That could be sometimes two or three covers per day. Those were crazy times. Most artists I know couldn’t keep that kind of thing up for very long. It’s remarkable how much good stuff was produced considering the kind of pressure we were always under. Deadlines were a real crunch — on everything! — and it was the same for all the artists. It’s not like today where comic book production might work six months ahead and you’re given plenty of lead time so you don’t screw up. You had to be fast and good back then, not just good. By fast, I mean sometimes two or even three pages per day. No breaks between assignments, and no vacations. I remember hearing that Jack Kirby could turn out an entire book in pencil in one weekend with no sweat. Nobody was as fast as Kirby. And most comics fans have no idea how grueling those deadlines were. Every artist had to draw as fast as humanly possible! To this day I honestly don’t know how I kept up with things… but you know what? It was never exhausting. I was fueled by caffeine, youthful energy, and pure inspiration. I was never bored. And I never got “artist’s block.” So, literally none of what I produced for the “Deathlok” series was done under [negative] circumstances. My picture resources were from the Manhattan library. Same for research. So, for “Deathlok,” the subject matter may have been hi-tech, but my resources were not.

Deathlok the Demolisher TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Marvel’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. TM & © Marvel & ABC Studios.

For example, the first problem I ran into was the lettering for Deathlok’s internal computer voice. No typeface even existed for that. Besides some printed circuit diagrams in books I used to research what computers were all about, there were no real graphics that I could use as a guide. So a lot of that just had to be made up. I mentioned editorial interference earlier. Well, I’ll get into that a bit. There was very little creative support. Every new visual concept I came up with would be met by a roadblock. Why? Well probably because it was new. So, it was not exactly sinister forces at work, like you might encounter in a comic book story. This was not the sort of villainy perpetrated by colorful bad guys or super-powered costumed madmen. This was nonsense caused by office characters. I have even given them a name. “Guardians of Mediocrity” is what I call them. They are hapless and self-serving. You always know those guys when you meet them. They usually work right alongside the “Protectors of the Status Quo.” Okay, I’m joking about it, but that kind of thing was going on behind the scenes. It was something Vince Colletta and Frank Giacoia had warned me about when I first started at Marvel. CBC: What did Colletta say? Rich: In Vince’s words: “Watch out for those guys, because nobody’s watching your ass.” I thought Vince and Frank were exaggerating, but they were actually warning me of things to come. CBC: Why do you think things played out the way they did? Rich: I think the trouble I ran into then was partly due to how I was put in charge of my own cyborg creation as writer-artisteditor. That might have made me look like I was aspiring to be some kind of superstar. Which I wasn’t. So it might have looked like I was showing off or like I was on some kind of power trip. That’s just not me. I do what I do because I love creating the comics. So, the comics business being what it is — I think of it as a mini-version of Hollywood — right from the inception of that series it was a sure thing that more than a few editorial feathers would get ruffled and maybe some egos would be challenged. That’s my best guess anyway. “Really?!” you say. “Comic book creators and big egos? Who would have thought?” Yes, there are lots of big egos in this business. I’m not saying I don’t have one. All creative people have egos. But some are the size of football fields! And egos can cause certain types to get really competitive or jealous even. “Who does he think he is? Jim Steranko?” No, I was thinking more along the lines of George Orwell or Philip K. Dick. CBC: Gotcha. Rich: And honestly, I always knew who I was. I wasn’t trying to be somebody else because I like being me! Okay, now I am exaggerating a bit, but you get my point. So there were plenty of creative ups and downs on that series. The mischief I encountered would almost always be the kinds of things where you couldn’t place the blame on a specific individual when something went wrong. However I almost always knew who the culprits were that were behind it. By the time Deathlok came about, I was working at the offices of Marvel almost every day and I knew practically everybody — even the accountants upstairs who issued my paycheck! CBC: So let’s get down to brass tacks: what kind of shenanigans went down? Rich: The kinds of shenanigans I’m talking about started to crank up after Roy Thomas left his post as editor-in-chief of Marvel. Once that happened I had literally nobody looking out for me. I was back to working at Marvel’s offices,

doing my best to regain the control of “Deathlok” that I had almost lost entirely when I had moved briefly back to Detroit. So this was actually toward the end of the run. This was the situation: I decided to do some of my own coloring, for at least one issue. I figured, why not? Tom Palmer was coloring all of the art that he inked. This was not without a precedent. So, not a big deal, right? I had already colored one cover for Astonishing Tales. George Russos helped me out on that one, guiding me through it. And I was beginning to do a lot of watercolor work on my own, so for the most part I knew what I was doing. I took this all very seriously, and I took measures to make sure from the get-go that I wasn’t attempting to do something where I might be getting in over my head. Remember, comic book coloring back then was all done by hand. The colorists had plenty of technical savvy — and they were artists! It wasn’t just a matter taking a brush and splashing colors on a Photostat and staying within the outlines and just hoping for the best. This wasn’t color by numbers either. So I did what was prudent. I consulted with Marie Severin. CBC: Yes, Marie Severin was head of Marvel’s coloring department then. Rich: Marie was a whiz. And she was kind enough to show me the ropes and give me some helpful tips and help me to navigate through this. She

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high-tech as it gets, right? It was definitely one of the more surreal covers I did. Anyhow, one of the colorists I knew, trying to be helpful, showed me a Photostat of the cover and he pointed this out to me: “You do know that the bad guy on this cover is completely naked, right?” I wanted to answer, “Gee, you know, I never noticed that when I drew it. What was I thinking?” So, nudity was portrayed on a cover. Tactfully, mind you. With style and a rock ’n’ roll attitude! But that was now about to become a big problem. Of course, it was done that way on purpose because that scene was supposed to be a computer simulation. This was the final battle between the hero and the villain and that would take place in a computer “virtual reality” realm where Ryker was taking on his “god” form. So they were not flesh and blood, but simulacrums in cyberspace. Nothing like that had ever been done before. Not even in the movies! Well, of course somebody in editorial saw it and figured it wouldn’t pass the Comics Code, so for “damage control” Ryker was given some brown underpants. I hated that. CBC: This all seems silly now, since in comics today just about anything goes. Rich: Believe it or not, though, back then this was serious stuff. So I relented, because it could have gotten much worse. Fortunately I had been very discreet with the graphics on the interior story pages, and thankfully none of that was tampered with. And speaking of the Comics Code, whoever they were at this point, if I can go off for a moment. I have more than a little bit to say on that subject. Just who were these guys? I think the Comics Code Authority was just a few industry people who were keeping up appearances with their official job titles and the industry was really just monitoring itself. And Code approval did not seem to be the real issue here. Besides, with Deathlok, the reliably insouciant Comics Code cretins had been apparently asleep at the wheel since my character’s first appearance. Why do I say that? Well, otherwise, how did they fail to notice that I had a programmed computerized assassin for a main character? — and that he was a re-animated corpse?! CBC: Ah-ha-haha! Rich: They were somehow inexplicably okay with walking dead. Okay. Lucky for me, right? But that was clearly forbidden only years before. So, wow, we have come a long way, baby! CBC: But nudity… no, that was a definite no-no. Rich: They couldn’t allow the bad guy in “Deathlok” to be shown in his birthday suit. The solution? We’ll just have him wear a bathing suit! CBC: Why was Ryker naked in the first place? Rich: Well, in my story the villain had created a “God Machine” and his goal was to become God. Think about it. Would God actually wear clothes? From my point of view, this was nit-picking. So I was thinking, “Why me?” It calls to mind some of the harrowing experiences Jim Steranko related to me about his early days at Marvel on “Nick Fury, Agent of Shield.” And to think, I actually thought then that Jim might have been exaggerating. Probably I was getting a little paranoid, but I did start to take every one of these things personally. There were other lesser but still irritating editorial subterfuges, like editors or staffers messing with credits on the book. So actual story work on several issues that I did would somehow go uncredited or the writer would mistakenly be given all the credit. So it was also a lot of little things like that, designed to wear me down. I suspect that it was probably editorial people thinking they had to reign me in because I was out of control. Okay, maybe I was uncontrollable. That was distinctly possible. But not out of control. That’s two entirely different things. Almost from the beginning of the series I found myself having to try to anticipate what might happen #18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Deathlok the Demolisher TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

immediately set me up with brushes and a palette, coded Dr. Martin’s concentrated ink dyes… you know, the works. So I went about my business at a work table in a small section of Sol Brodsky’s production space. And then, rather unceremoniously, word arrived from “on high”, from the editor-in-chief. Which one? I’m not naming names here. Why bother? It was actually one of the many “editorsof-the-week” as I liked to call them back then. During those few months just after Roy left as boss to work full-time as a freelance writer, that editor-in-chief post seemed to be a revolving door. So, for me, whoever was in charge, it didn’t seem to matter. They were all interchangeable. So his pronouncement was: “No, you do not have permission to do what you are doing.” Just like that. For no apparent reason, it was spelled out for me that no way was Rich Buckler going to color his own work! “Why?” I asked. “Because you can’t!” That was the reason? Can you imagine? Like I’m back in fifth grade. CBC: Wow. Rich: Well, things like “no,” “you can’t,” “it’s not allowed,” or “get permission”… those are not terms I hold in high esteem or give a lot of credence to. That’s just me. So I decided, “Enough already!” I’ll just go to Stan Lee and knock on his office door to get his take on this. CBC: Was Stan still the man in charge? Rich: Stan was mostly in the background in those days, busy working in merchandising and marketing and licensing, those areas. So you hardly ever saw him. But as far as I knew at that time, Stan still had the last word about anything at Marvel. So it was a real short meeting and it went like this: “Can I speak to you for a moment, Stan?” He could tell that I was obviously upset about something. “C’mon in. Of course. What seems to be the problem?” I told him that I was forbidden to color my work, on my own book. I said; “I need special permission for that?” Well, it turned out that I didn’t. Stan just looked at me somewhat bewildered, and after a second or two he shook his head and with an expansive gesture he said to me: “Rich, there’s no problem! You can do whatever you want!” Okay. So that should have settled the matter, right? You would think so. But no, it didn’t. I did get to follow through and I did finish that color job. But I had gone “over the head” of the editor-in-chief. That was going too far. It was ludicrous. If Rich ever does “that” again — well, what were they going to do? Fire me? I had a contract to do that book. They couldn’t fire me. But things continued along those lines anyway. Just one silly thing after another. Like typesetting being substituted for the computer lettering in “Deathlok.” That was forced upon me. CBC: How did you react to that? Rich: I protested: “We don’t need it!” And, really, we didn’t. Annette Kawecki had invented an entire alphabet for Deathlok’s computer calligraphy. That was nothing short of heroic on her part! I asked, “What happened to Annette?” Well, she’s unavailable. Hmmm. Hey, never mind that none of those typefaces available looked “computer-like,” or even high-tech in any way. Anybody notice that, or even care? This all sounds very much like a game, right? I want this — and they don’t want that. You don’t get what you want, because I want something else. Anyway, here is another confounding example from that time: It was a cover I drew for Astonishing Tales #35, so this was at the end of the series. The title would be cancelled with the next issue. (Amazingly, I never even saw that one coming!) So about this cover: I had drawn a symbolic scene of Deathlok facing off with Simon Ryker in the digital realm. In the background, I pasted up a distorted city — something I improvised by flattening out the printed picture on a paper cup. That was about as

Deathlok the Demolisher TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

once the work was handed in. So wherever it was possible I would try to run interference with that kind of thing by thinking ahead. That’s why all of those special effects I did on certain pages, and the photo montages specifically, even got printed correctly. With those I would do the actual paste up work myself so that nothing would get screwed up. I would be told: “This won’t print. It will never hold up.” And I would insist: “Trust me, it’ll work.” I would even have to follow up in the production department and then “baby” those pages through the whole process. But I couldn’t keep track of everything so there were still plenty of screw-ups anyway. And a few near-misses. Like the time I came into Marvel’s offices to hand in new art pages on Deathlok. (This was early on in the series, so I’m backtracking here.) I was showing the inked Deathlok pages to Marie Severin in her office adjacent to the bullpen. CBC: That was Marvel’s coloring department. Rich: Marie liked me and I valued her opinion. So I was there to get valuable initial feedback. When I got to showing the part where there were two story pages that I had drawn sideways, that was quite a visual surprise and Marie was delighted when she saw that. Well, in walked Marv Wolfman at that moment and he blurted out: “You can’t do that!” Like I had just committed a mortal sin. I said, “Well, I just did.” “But those pages are sideways!” And I said, “I know. I drew them that way.” I think it was the first time that was ever done in comics. Or if not, it was one of the earliest times. That was one of a lot of firsts for that series, actually. Anyway, I said: “This is going to be a problem? The reader just turns the book around, reads the pages, then turns the page and turns the book around again. I think readers can handle that, don’t you?” Well, of course, those pages could easily be Photostatted and pasted up again right side up. And wouldn’t you know it? That was just what was suggested. And I absolutely refused to allow it. I couldn’t believe my ears. Another time a cover for “Deathlok” got assigned to another artist without anybody consulting me first. That happened when I was living back in Detroit for awhile. I was really steamed about that one! But I had found out about it too late. Ultimately the editorial process for the

book got practically co-opted for a brief period, along with decision-making regarding the choice of inkers. Everything was going south and the overall quality of the art began to suffer at one point. It’s a total wonder that book even happened, really. But despite all of those frustrating experiences, overall I am proud of the work I did on it. Not to mention, there was nothing like it in comics at the time.

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TO BE CONTINUED

Coming in Part Three

In our next installment the artist discusses his collaboration with Don McGregor on “Black Panther,” chats at length about his lawsuit over Deathlok, and its influence on Hollywood sci-fi, and Rich’s post-comics career in the fine arts.

comics in the library

Arndt Recommends…

…Resident Alien, Gotham Academy, Dracula, and Captain America: White! by R ICHARD J. ARNDT CBC Contributing Editor

Above: Dick Giordano’s vivid cover for Stoker’s Dracula #1 [Oct. 2004]. Below: Writer Jeph Loeb and artist Tim Sale put the Sentinel of Liberty and his trusty sidekick through their “color” treatment with Captain America: White (this cover from #1 [Nov. 2015]).

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Captain America: White, Stoker’s Dracula TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Continuing our coverage of individual or short graphic novels or series, we starting this time with Resident Alien, Vol. 1: Welcome to Earth, by Peter Hogan and Steve Parkhouse. The premise here is that an alien crash-landed on Earth three years ago and is hiding as a retired doctor in a small tourist town in the Pacific Northwest. The town’s only practicing doctor is murdered and the town’s sheriff and mayor want Harry Vanderspeigle (the alien’s alias) to both help with the investigation and provide medical service for the town. Harry — we never learn his alien name, at least in this first volume — has the ability to “cloud men’s minds,” thus appearing human to them, although not to we readers. It’s not an all-powerful clouding however. At least six thousand humans would statistically have the ability to see Harry’s true form. Overall, that should make him pretty safe in small-town America, but wouldn’t you know it, at least three of those six thousand live in town — a Native American father and daughter and a small unrelated child. While the mystery in this first volume isn’t particularly hard to figure out, Hogan’s strong, if underrated, hand with characterization is in fine display here while Parkhouse’s simple, yet elegant drawings and storytelling make for an exceptional book. There is one minor mention of bondage in the story, but, to date, I haven’t heard anyone complaining and that’s a good thing. Glad I bought this one. Gotham Academy is an ongoing series from DC that is possibly the best thing they’re publishing for the age level of my student readers. It involves a group of students going to Gotham Academy — the same school Bruce Wayne attended as a boy, as did many of the members of the Bat-family and Young Justice — although these students are not super-heroes… yet. Our two main leads are Olive, a meta-human, and her best friend, Maps, a young girl who would so be Robin if she got the chance. With their half-dozen or so friends, they establish a “mystery club” — think the Scooby gang with smart people in it — to investigate various odd happenings around the school. Along the way, they meet Batman/Bruce Wayne, Killer Croc, Robin (Damien Wayne), and even a few Man-Bats; discover secret passages and hidden tunnels through the school; realize their professors are a little more strange than even Harry Potter’s academic mentors; while

forming bonds and friendships between a decidedly odd bunch of kids. It’s well-written, well drawn, and the reader quickly gets personally involved with the characters. While Olive is the usual lead, Maps is a simply irresistibly cute and strong heroine, and I so want her to be Robin one day. Great series — not just for kids, but adults too. Last year, a parent came in and gave one of the best presentations on Bram Stoker’s Dracula that I’ve ever seen. However, the book’s language is so difficult, and oddly structured, for modern kid readers that it simply doesn’t give them a chance to really appreciate it. However, a nice hardcover of the Roy Thomas and late Dick Giordano adaptation for Marvel solved that problem and is being checked out fairly regularly. The adaptation was started in 1974 and interrupted mid-story by the ’75 cancellation of the black-&-white horror magazines it was appearing in. It remained a “what-might-have-been” story for nearly 30 years, when Marvel editor Mark Beazley gave Thomas and Giordano the opportunity to finish the adaptation. What we have is a beautifully written, illustrated, and colored book that is quite likely the best and most faithful graphic adaptation that anyone could ask for. In addition to the actual adaptation, you get text articles detailing the long history of the adaptation, Giordano’s sketches for covers and pages, advertising art and the covers of the various issues of Dracula Lives! and Legion of Monsters that the earliest chapters appeared in. A really fine book for a remarkably decent price and one I’m happy to add to our library. Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale have been doing graphic novels for Marvel, using a color as the title for the series. They’ve all been pretty damn fantastic and Captain America: White is no exception. The story takes place not all that long after Cap was discovered in the iceberg (a bit like Frankenstein’s monster). For Cap, the World War II days were yesterday, not decades ago, and Bucky’s death is a fresh scar. We see Steve Rogers as an accomplished super-hero, but woefully naïve about women. Bucky Barnes is the best sidekick anyone could wish for, but like all kids who have adult responsibilities thrust upon them, he’s also a brash risk-taker. In a series of tales, we see Cap and Bucky’s partnership, their battles against Nazis and the Red Skull, including that final, fateful clash for Bucky, and the revived Captain America’s genuine grief over Bucky’s fate. Nick Fury appears with the Howling Commandos and as the director of S.H.I.E.L.D. There’s genuine emotion running through this title, as it does in all the “color” books Loeb and Sale have done to date. (For the record, the others are Spider-Man: Blue, Daredevil: Yellow, and Hulk: Gray, and all four are great books and worth every penny you spend on them… I highly recommend them.) The same goes for Creepy Presents: Steve Ditko, which reprints all of Ditko’s stories for Warren’s Creepy and Eerie magazines back in the 1960s. They are in beautiful black-&-white — as they were originally published — and all but one were written by Archie Goodwin. You can’t get better talent than that! Favorites of mine include the stunning “Collector’s Edition!” and the first Goodwin/Ditko tale I ever read, “Room with a View.” Another book I highly recommend for all libraries and readers.

Blackhawk TM & © DC Comics.

hembeck’s dateline: @?*!!

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

art and family photos, for a biography of her father, the great artist John Severin, which I am co-writing with Greg Biga (to come from TwoMorrows sometime in the near future). So, on a Friday in late June, with the welcome help of pal Steve Ringgenberg (with whom I’m collaborating regarding the next issue of CBC, the Frank Frazetta celebration, which Ringgenberg will be co-editing, as well as a few other projects), I found Mr. Rude out in the open and in plain sight, awaiting my arrival as we pulled in, a host ready, despite the 115°F temp and merciless sun, to take his guest through “A Day in the Life of The Dude.” In less than 17 hours, I’d be flying back home to Rhode Island, but the insightful experience was a rich one and just might prove to be a timeless and important look into the life of a true artist.

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Portrait photography © Greg Preston.

By the time this epic interview sees print, it’ll be just over a year after Steve Rude sent yours truly an e-mail suggesting I come out West to his Arizona homestead, some 2,600 or so miles from my East Coast digs. “You can see things as they really are,” the comic book artist wrote in his Aug. 21, 2017, missive, “the environment in which I work, all the material I’ve collected over my lifetime that I use for that work. You’ll be able to see it all for yourself in a way that phone interviews alone can’t really compete with. [Certain] respected peers… hide from the world. That’s not me.” After yet another tumultuous year at Casa Cooke, I was finally able to find the time to travel — albeit on a whirlwind journey! — as I combined the trip with a side jaunt to Michelina Severin’s Colorado home to scan a huge and breathtaking array of original

THE CBC STEVE RUDE INTERVIEW

Nexus TM & © Mike Baron and Steve Rude.

Above: Young Kelley Jones became a comics fan upon reading Swamp Thing #2. Below & inset: Ray Harryhausen’s dinosaur movies were an influence on the young artist.

Born on New Year’s Eve 1956, in Madison, Wisconsin, Steve Rude early on discovered the TV animated series Jonny Quest and Space Ghost and the dynamic artistry of Jack Kirby, and his path was set. Mix in an affection for the Fleischer Brothers’ Superman cartoons and admiration for great American magazine illustrators of the past, young Rude sought an education in art at the Milwaukee School of Art and from the Madison Area Technical College (MATC), as well as the University of Wisconsin. Of course, the young artist’s first significant break came with the 1981 debut of Nexus, the intergalactic executioner of mass murderers, a co-creation of Rude and Wisconsin-based writer Mike Baron. Visually, the series was heavily influenced by the work of Alex Toth, Doug Wildey, and Kirby, and Rude’s astound-

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

ing ability was recognized early on at the 1984 San Diego ComicCon, where he was given the Russ Manning Promising Newcomer trophy at the Will Eisner Comic Industry Awards. Since then, the artist has won numerous Eisners and is widely considered to be one of the very finest adventure artists in the field of comics. Rather prolific as of late, with DC Comics assignments that have included work on their Hanna-Barbera line and plans to take on a regular title, Rude lives in the outskirts of Phoenix, Arizona, in a 4,800 square-foot home with a spacious studio open to the rest of the house, with his wife, Jaynelle, two teenage children, one cat, and a pair of beloved “blowhards.” We join Rude, comics historian Steven Ringgenberg, and yours truly as we chat while reclining on living room couches in late morning. — JBC

[The transcript begins with mention of the annual Burning Man Festival held each late summer in the Nevada desert.] Steve Rude: I’ve been with some other parties for the Burners [festival participants], and they’re definitely a fringe group. They’re kind of out there. Steven C. Ringgenberg: Well, so am I, at times. Steve: Well, I’m the weirdest one of all. I mean, look how eccentric I am, if I’m frank about it. There’s nothing normal about me. SCR: “Mad genius” is not overstating the fact. Comic Book Creator: [To Steve] What makes you eccentric? Steve: Well, besides everyone telling me that, I just don’t pursue life in normal ways. This whole thing where they always say, “You think outside the box”…? Well, I’ve never known what the hell that box even is. But normal people have to invent phrases to justify thinking that’s a little eccentric. To me it’s just normal to be like that. I mean, [points to the Rudes’ two pet dogs on the carpet] I don’t call them dogs. They’re “blowhards.” My mom and dad, I never called them “Mom and Dad.” CBC: No? Steve: Never. From the time I was, had a memory, I called them weird names. I don’t know where the names came from. So that’s really weird behavior to me, and to anyone. CBC: Who is “Mr. Silly”? Steve: Oh, Mr. Silly is my boy, Brandon. But I don’t call him

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Illustration © Steve Rude. Comic Book Artist © Jon B. Cooke. Streetwise TM & © Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows Publishing.

Above: Your humble editor’s first encounter with Steve Rude was with Comic Book Artist #8 [May 2000], when The Dude contributed this awesome cover painting depicting the issue’s theme, “Comics’ Streak of Independence: 1980–85,” featuring his amazing ’81 co-creation, Nexus, juxtaposed with the most assuredly corporate X-Men characters. Inset right: The artist also contributed this cover (illustrating a young Jack Kirby) for John Morrow and Ye Ed’s comics anthology, Streetwise: Autobiographical Stories by Comic Book Professionals.

Brandon. I call him “Drandon.” Or “Mr. Silly” or “Mr. Z.” SCR: Yeah, you have nicknames for everything. Steve: I do, yeah. Some of the models that come over here, there was a guy doing [chuckles] a documentary on me, and there was this gorgeous, big-chested model who never made it on the tape for whatever ridiculous reason, but he was asking her about me, and the model said, “Well, he has a bunch of different names for things. He has more names for things than anyone I’ve ever met.” To call them dogs actually is painful to me. Or cats. I can’t call them that. It’s just so non-Steve Rude-like. CBC: Because it doesn’t individualize them? Is that it? Steve: I don’t know. I don’t know where these names come from. CBC: What’s wrong with “dog” and “cat”? Steve: It’s too normal. I can’t do normal. SCR: Bo-ring. [The conversation later shifts to discussing the relatively new home the Rudes moved into four years prior] Steve: About four years ago, when we first moved in, we had to go on this European tour right away. Instead of getting set up here, we had about a month to get sort of set up, and I remember when we moved down here. We were used to living way north of here, so when we moved down here, it was, like, in the middle of virtual nowhere. We didn’t even know if we were in Arizona anymore, it was so bizarre. It changed directions so drastically… and no one lives out here. This is an area that’s still being developed some far end of things. CBC: What’s the difference between “up north”? What’s up north, then? SCR: It’s really built up. Steve: Yeah, it’s more built up. There’s more houses. CBC: More developed. Steve: Yeah. And down here there was nothing but a bunch of farmers’ fields and stuff like that. CBC: Right. Melons and stuff like that? SCR: Yeah. Steve’s neighbors are, like, melon fields and Leatherface. [laughter] Steve: And then we had to leave on that trip, and it was very disorienting because we had to find all the places that you have to normally find — gas stations, supermarkets, things like that, movie theaters, restaurants — and I didn’t know where anything was because Gino [Steve’s wife, Jaynelle] did all that stuff. I was up there working, trying to get stuff done in my little room up there, (which you’ll see in a moment). But I always knew that would happen when I got married. [To Jon] Tell me if this happened to you. You’re married, right? CBC: I am. Thirty-one years. Steve: Okay, so I knew that when I got married, I would dump half of my responsibilities off on Yayniss [Jaynelle], because these were things I just didn’t want to do anymore. But I had to learn how to do them. Otherwise I wasn’t going to be a worthy mate. I keep telling Mr. Silly that. You need to do more than just play video-games your whole life. CBC: You don’t want to be needy. Steve: Yeah. Well, there’s a couple things a guy has to learn how to do before he gets settled down: he has to learn how to clean. I had restaurant work for many, many years. I washed the same dish over, and over, and over. And you have to learn how to cook for yourself. You have to learn how to balance your checkbook on your own. SCR: Change a tire. Steve: It’s probably good if you know how to change a tire. I think that’s it. What else is there? SCR: Learning how to tell time on an analog clock.

Nexus TM & © Mike Baron & Steve Rude. Sketchbook illustration © Steve Rude. LA Fitness photo by Tony Webster.

Steve: Well, we could always do that because that’s what we grew up with… SCR: And tie your shoes. Steve: Yeah, you know how to tie your shoes, obviously, from an early, early age. SCR: But there’s schools in England now where they took out all of the analog clocks because the kids can’t read them. Everything’s digital. Steve: Right. That’s England for you. SCR: Well, I mean, that’s the States, too. You know, when I was a kid, I remember you got like little worksheets where you had to learn how to tell time, in elementary school. They don’t do that anymore. Steve: Well, do you remember the little things they gave us to learn how to tie our shoes? The little flat things with the laces on them? Do you remember? They had a little shoe outline on it? Is that how you learned? SCR: No. Steve: That’s how we learned in kindergarten or before that. SCR: Yeah, I just learned from my parents, I think. CBC: Being instructed over and over again. Steve: Yeah, so the time we grew up was obviously much superior to the dummies who grew up in recent years. CBC: Well, they have Velcro now. SCR: They have different skills. Steve: I’ll say. Well, their skill is holding a box about this far away and pressing buttons on it. Would you ever want to grow up during a time like that? No, thanks. SCR: Now, I think the comics, the animation we had, were far superior to what’s on now. You look at something like the Cartoon Network and the animation is sh*tty. Steve: Well, Mr. Silly watches Pikachu all day. I like Pikachu because he’s funny yellow guy. But every day I try to influence the kids as to the great stuff we grew up with. Sometimes it works. Sometimes… not so much. [laughs] CBC: “It’s black-&-white, Dad! Who wants to see it?” SCR: Well, I managed to turn my daughter on to Hunter Thompson. Steve: The books? SCR: Yeah, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas and Hell’s Angels. CBC: How old is she? SCR: Twenty-three, but I was reading to her from infancy,

you know. I’d started out reading her the classics and, as she got older, I’d read her Harry Potter, and then she wanted to read Harry Potter on her own. Steve: Does she have any writing ability at all, based on everything you have told her over the years, growing up? SCR: Not really. She’s never expressed an interest in it. She was an artist for a little while. Pretty good, too. I remember a Father’s Day card she gave me that on the front of it there was, like, a ray gun. She said, “Dad, there’s a whole lot of things I could have gotten you for your birthday, but this is what I know you really want.” And it was like a really cool-looking ray gun. Steve: About how old was she when she did that? SCR: Teenage. Fifteen, sixteen. Steve: I’ve also got a little girl [Jessica]. I call her “Super.” CBC: “Super”? Steve: Yeah, but it’s not for the reason that every dummy thinks I’m calling her Super. It has nothing to do with comic books. Nothing. And people always make that assumption. “Oh, you named him Brandon because of Bruce Lee’s kid.” No, no. It had nothing to do with that. So most of the assumptions about me are completely wrong. [laughs] To no one’s surprise. CBC: How old is she? Steve: Super is 15 and Mr. Silly is 17, about to turn 18. CBC: Two teenagers, huh? SCR: Brandon’s a nice kid, though. He’s very quiet. Steve: You ought to see him when he’s playing his video games. He’s loud. SCR: Well, you know, the last time I was over here I think I had, like, the longest conversation I’ve ever had with him. Steve: Yeah. Well, you know, that thing is always about someone’s perceived interest in how much you care about what they have to say, and that’s the trick with people, too. SCR: Yeah, I was asking him about his trip to Europe. Steve: Remember when adults would ask you questions and you didn’t know if they really cared or not, so you wouldn’t give them the time even if they were asking you stuff? That was the trick

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Above: Stock images representing the two destinations outside of the Rude abode the artist had planned for Ye Ed’s Arizona visit to participate in “A Day in the Life of the Dude.” First it was sandwiches at Red Robin during a noontime lunch and then an hour-plus workout at Steve’s local LA Fitness, where the pair worked the upper body, swam in the pool, and sweated it out in the sauna. Inset left: Keeping with the exercise theme, Steve’s cover art for Nexus #15 [Dec. 1985]. Below: Ever observing the world around him with his artistic eye, The Dude took note of an LA Fitness member’s pose which he later drew from memory.

™

No. 12, Spring 2016

A Tw o M o r r o w s P u b l i c a t i o n

Above: A bunch of Steve Rude’s recent work for DC Comics has been inspired by Jack Kirby, including Steve’s variant covers for Convergence #6 [July 2015] featuring the Fourth World characters, and The Kamandi Challenge #8 [Oct. 2017]. For good measure we include Steve’s great cover for our own CBC #12 [Spring 2016]. Below: The Dude inked Kirby for the cover of Amazing Heroes #100.

with people. Especially kids, because kids don’t care about putting on airs or nonsense. They just want to know that you actually care… SCR: You’re actually listening, yeah. Steve: [Pointing to their small half-beagle/half-dachshund] Her real name is Chloe. Super named her that. So I started making up names, just came out of nowhere, like blowhard. Well, the original blowhard is over there on the wall. [Points to painted portrait of dog] That’s Ram. CBC: The beagle? Steve: Right. Ram, I think I called her that for “rambunctious,” but I don’t remember. SCR: Why do you call dogs “blowhards”? Steve: Because of CrapRam. [Points to large dog] That’s CrapRam over there. She used to roll in crap, so I used to call her “CrapRam.” The bus with a bunch of little keeeds [kids] used to pull up outside our house, and I would let Ram out to bark at the little keeves. And Ram would stop barking and turn around and look at me like she was looking for my approval. SCR: “Am I barking well enough?” Steve: Yeah, right. So, one day, I came across the word “blowhard,” so I started calling Ram “blowhard,” for being kind of a blowhard. And now the name is just a name, when you think about it. And then, the funny thing is that everyone around me calls them blowhards now. The girls at the gym, they all call them blowhards. CBC: It catches on. Steve: Oh, yeah, it does. Every blowhard around here is a rescue blowhard.

82658 97073

CBC: So do you go to the animal rescue place? Steve: Yeah. SCR: Jessica picked her out, right? Steve: Super did, yeah. All the dogs that you see in Arizona are rescues, it seems. [Indicates large dog] We got Bigness, I call her “Bigness.” CBC: The German shepherd? Steve: Yeah, and she was abandoned in this neighborhood out of nowhere. And when we eventually traced her to the people who owned her over in Mesa, which is on the other side of Phoenix. SCR: That’s got to be, like, 60 miles away. Steve: Oh, at least. And we tried to contact them, and there was no response from these people at all. But that’s how we found out her name, which is Shadow. I call her “Shob” or “Shobby-Shob,” or, when her leg was hurt, I called her “Hobble-Shob.” CBC: You made fun of the poor dog’s injury? C’mon, Steve! Steve: Hobble-Shobble. That’s what I called her. But she was walking around the neighborhood, and [Chloe] Flowhard’s sort of barking like crazy. I opened the door and saw Shob out there. “Come on in.” The test was to see if Flowhard liked Shob. And they got along great, and the only time they fight is over the bones, and I call them the Bone Wars. CBC: Bone Wars. [laughs] Steve: Yeah, just like Cupcake Wars, except this one makes more sense. CBC: It’s much more exciting. Steve: Yeah, it’s more exciting, and they’re always fighting over the bones. But that’s the only time they fight. SCR: Back in the turn of the century, when paleontology was kind of in its infancy, there were diggers and scientists who would fight over the skeletons. They’d call them bone sharps. CBC: Sharps? Like card sharps? SCR: Yeah. You should ask Mark Schultz about that, because I think that’s his wheelhouse, you know? Steve: It sounds like you were saying “sharps,” but it’s “shark”? SCR: No, sharps. CBC: Yeah, that’s for various card sharps. SCR: Sharpshooters. CBC: There is “card shark,” too, which is probably derivative of that. Because you’d think, logically, it’d be more like a predatory kind of thing. But it’s “sharp,” card sharp.

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Convergence, The Kamandi Challenge, the Fourth World characters, The Guardian and the Newsboy Legion TM & © DC Comics. Captain Victory TM & © The Estate of Jack Kirby. Amazing Heroes © Fantagraphics. All other characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

01 1

Mister Miracle, Darkseid, Orion TM & © DC Comics.

[Later the talk turns to Steve’s odd naming of things.] CBC: [To Steve] You should have a glossary for all of your odd phrasing. Like, the top 12 or 15, or something. We could include it as a sidebar. Steve: Well, I sent this girl up in Canada a glossary. CBC: Oh, so you do have one? Steve: Well, I didn’t make copies of it, but yeah. There was, like, 15 different phrases or words I use on there. I figured I’d better get people used to them before they freak out or something… When we found this house down here, and this is the reason we moved in, it’s like a dream house. That’s how huge it is. This is almost a mansion in L.A. terms, and it’s just got all this room, and the studio… [Jaynelle asks what plans are there for lunch and SCR announces he will need to leave soon. The conversation shifts back to dogs.] Steve: I finally concluded when I was 18 that blowhards are far superior people. You almost never find a human being that treats you like a blowhard does. SCR: Well, Mark Twain said that the dog is virtually the only creature on the planet who will love you more than you love yourself. CBC: Mm-hmm, but they can also become as damaged as the damaged person they love. Steve: I know people who have the traits that a blowhard could have, but it’s incredibly rare to find in a human what is routinely found in a blowhard. CBC: I think it’s like meditation, like, really, having a practice of living in the moment. Because I think that’s the beautiful thing about dogs is that they’re always in the moment. Steve: Well, [points to Chloe] Flowhard was found underneath a car with her brothers in the summertime. It is so hot in the summertime. CBC: As a litter? Steve: I think so. I know Flowhard had a brother, and we tried contacting the people who had her brother. They never got back to us. That’s another real huge complaint I have about people: their sense of irresponsibility is so profound nowadays that I almost don’t even know what race we’re talking about anymore. I mean, they’ve traditionally always been irresponsible, but lately it’s almost like an epidemic. But Shob and Flowhard are both rescues. Shob was abused, obviously, because she’s afraid of everything. CBC: This is the German shepherd? Steve: Yeah. As I’ve told you, those were other people we tried to get in contact with, and they never even contacted us. They never even got back to us. So you’re left with a mystery of why people do what they do or don’t do what they do, all the time. And because I’m a person that can’t stand not knowing why people do what they do, it drives me a little nuts to know that they just blatantly ignore a request for finding out something that’s going to help the blowhard’s life. They obviously just dropped her off in the middle of nowhere. Now, why they picked here, I have no idea. But this area is a dumping ground for blowhards. CBC: Oh, really? Steve: Yes, it is. I mean, everyone who has blowhards here, they’re all rescues or strays. And they were actually dumped off here like Shob was. No accounting for that. SCR: People suck. [The conversation later turns to favorite inkers.] Steve: Comic book people talk COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

about inkers like physicists talk about Copernicus. [laughs] CBC: Yeah. And I was with the daughter of one of the greats, John Severin, just yesterday. And I’m going to go visit another great very soon. I have to see Joe Sinnott. Steve: Yeah, I called him on the phone not too long ago, and he’s so old that he can barely hear, so I hope it goes well when you go see him. CBC: Well, I’m going to go see him for a Sunday brunch. SCR: Well, everybody raves about John Buscema, but I thought he was never better than when Tom Palmer inked him. CBC: That depends. Did you ever see him ink himself? SCR: Just here and there, like little illustrations. CBC: Yeah, right, he did a Conan illustration. He also did that big barbarian or Viking or whatever it was, this huge

Above: Early January of 1987 brought a truly delightful comic book, Mister Miracle Special #1, written by Mark Evanier, penciled by Steve Rude, and inked by one of Jack Kirby’s finest embellishers, Mike Royer. This is the original cover art for that issue, with art by The Dude.

Inset left: Darkseid and Son by Steve Rude, 1992. The artist has always held Jack “The King” Kirby in highest esteem and Rude frequently returns to the legendary comic book creator’s concepts and characters, and endless fount of inspiration. 49

is I don’t want whatever I possessed not to go away. I’m afraid it’s going to go away. And, if I don’t have every one of something, I’m not complete or less than. It’s a strange kind of… SCR: It’s a compulsion. Steve: It is that. It’s all that, and the fact that I just met an animator who worked on the original Space Ghost when I thought there was nobody existing anymore shows you that there’s always another rock that hasn’t been turned over yet. So being a collector is a never-ending thing. You will always hopefully find something that’s going to stimulate you. CBC: But you’d think it’s going to be finite. I mean, in the sense of… comic books are numerical. You have to have one, two, three… so when you’re a real intense collector, right, you’ve got to get whatever is missing. I’ll never forget, when I came back from Europe, I missed two months of Kirby’s Fourth World books, and it was like, “Oh my God, I’ve got to get the one with the Guardian and Superman on the cover with Goody Rickles!” I had to get that. I had to go to New York, to the Seuling comic con to get one and I had Jack sign it. SCR: Well, I think if you’re going to have an obsession, that’s a good one to have. It’s just… CBC: It can get out of hand. Steve: It’s just… it’s like you said, and it’s just plain fun. And it forms your personality and gives you a basis on which you compare your own deeds in life to the great deeds of what the comic books have taught us, either in looking at them or reading them. [The conversation later turns to discussing two once prolific and now reclusive artists.] Steve: That’s the thing about comic book lore: you can’t figure out what’s going on with a guy who never wants to get back to anyone… SCR: I heard [Artist A has] kind of gone off the deep end a little bit. Steve: I wish I knew what was going on with these people. CBC: With some, I think there’s a dichotomy very often of having an enormous ego and simultaneously having a self-loathing that is almost crippling… I know it sounds like… [pauses] SCR: A paradox. Steve: I understand that completely. I hear that all the time about a lot of artists. CBC: I call it feeling like you’re the piece of sh*t you want the rest of the world to orbit. I can be like that. I’ve certainly got a degree of narcissism, of thinking that “I’m important” and yet “I’m a piece of sh*t” at precisely the same moment. Steve: I heard a great definition that relates to that. It was about writers. How did the quote go? Writers are egomaniacs with low self-esteem. [laughter] SCR: That’s good. I hadn’t heard that before. CBC: That’s so true! Steve: I love just totally disarmingly honest things like that, because it’s so funny. People, these are the things like I #18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

guy with a huge beard. SCR: I know what inkers are like: it’s like religion and politics when you talk about inkers in comics. Everyone’s got their take on it and they’re almost violent in defending who they like and who they can’t stand. CBC: There’s a constant argument about whether Mike Royer or Joe Sinnott are the best Kirby inkers. I’m a Royer guy. I belong to the Church of Mike Royer. He would do these really thick lines for the captions. It almost seems arbitrary. We could see them right in there. This seems arbitrary, but it always helps, for me, it always helps the story. [Steve nods.] Steve: And I’m the same way about everything, too. The older you get, the more firm you seem to become in your opinions about things, and I’m getting more firm all the time with those opinions. It seems inevitable. CBC: I also think, as we get older, the work becomes devoid of sentimentality and nostalgia… at least for me. It stands or falls on its own merits. For me, Kirby stands. This stuff is great. And I was lucky that his genius hit me when I was 12, when it became an emotional thing, but now, I can look back at it with detachment and realize this stuff is truly great. Kirby is. He’s the greatest. Steve: It’s the wonderment of a lifelong process of observing things and knowing what you like even more than when you were… CBC: You have more to compare it to. Steve: Yeah, you just, you become more cemented in your tastes in life, and that’s part of the fun of being a comic book fan. SCR: I like the same stuff I always liked, but I cast a wider net now. Some artists I’ve learned to, like, really enjoy, like Bill Everett. I was never that into him, but now I love it. CBC: He was a great inker on Kirby, too. SCR: He was a wonderful artist. Everett was one of those guys who could literally draw anything. CBC: You know what it was for me? It was the full page in Steranko’s History of Comics, the Sub-Mariner fighting the Human Torch by Everett. That was it. I loved his work immediately. SCR: Yeah, that was the first piece of his that I really noticed. Steve: [To SCR] You know what was a shame? You went to all that trouble at your old place to kind of reorganize your work here again, and then you had to move all this stuff out of there, and now you’re in a new place that’s kind of small. What a tragedy, huh? Moving is the most traumatic thing. I hate moving. It’s like the worst thing imaginable. CBC: I moved so much as a little kid, you’re right, it was traumatic. Now I’ve been in the same place for 25 years. SCR: You lived in Europe as a kid? CBC: Yeah, for a year, and it was stimulating in its way, but it was also very lonely. But part of it, that’s why comics became important. [To Steve] And that’s something I wanted to talk to you about: what is collecting? For me, I recognize it as collecting

Superman TM & © DC Comics. All other characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

like to reveal about myself are the weird things, because otherwise it’s just the same old crap that you get from everybody that talks to you about stuff, and you don’t learn anything new. Your brain isn’t stimulated into different avenues, so how can you learn things? CBC: It’s revealing that we’re vulnerable. It’s interesting. Being reticent is not sharing. It’s not interesting, you know? I think it’s an old axiom: identify, don’t compare. You need to identify with other people. Steve: Where’d you hear that one? CBC: I belong to a group and that’s one of the axioms that they have, which is that it’s very important, if you go to a meeting, to listen to something that you can respond to rather than saying, “I’m nothing like that person.” Because there’s a commonality for all of us… it’s about love and it’s about being esteemed. SCR: I was just going to say, I honestly feel sorry for shy people. I feel like they miss out on so much, being so reticent… Steve: Weren’t we shy when we were younger, though? SCR: I wasn’t. Steve: I was shy. SCR: My dad said of me years later that I never met a stranger. Because Steve called up the example of living in the barbershop after coming back from Japan, and I sat there in the barber’s chair and just chattering away, “Yeah, we just came back from Japan,” blah, blah, blah. Steve: Yeah, I can totally see that. SCR: And I guess that’s one of the reasons why I’ve been a pretty good interviewer: because I’m not afraid to talk to people. I’ll talk to anybody. Steve: Yeah, you’re really good about that. That’s why you’re a really good teacher, but except your talents are wasted there, because you have a non-appreciative audience. [To Jon] You know, you mentioned the group you belong to. I have these weird thoughts when I hear certain things that they trigger interesting thoughts in my head. If

anyone who has a problem, say like with drinking or something, because I can’t stand alcohol. I just can’t stand the taste of it. It tastes like vinegar or something. If you could take somebody with a problem, a serious problem that they can’t control, and they were able to, like, transplant a part of someone else’s brain in place of the problem area of that person’s brain, you would never want to ever drink again, because you’d feel about it like I do. And then you could, I could transplant something from your brain into mine that I have a problem with, and it would suddenly vanish like that, because it doesn’t exist anymore. CBC: I absolutely agree, but I think that’s the divine spirit, personally. I think there is something that is beyond me. For instance, when I had my first son, my first child, I loved this creature that was coming from my wife. I didn’t know this creature. I mean, I understand that Darwinian survival instinct, you want to protect your own, but at that moment I just recognized a higher power. I just started to believe right off… it’s not easy to put into words what happens. Steve: Well, 12-Step groups always talk about that higher power thing, don’t they? CBC: It’s a spiritual thing. It doesn’t have to be “God.” And it’s certainly not anything religious. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Previous page: Steve channels Kirby done for a Marvel cartoon collection. Left inset: Painted illo by Steve. Above: Steve’s Kirby-inspired page (with inks by Al Milgrom) from The Incredible Hulk Vs. Superman [July 1999].

Above: The late martial arts legend Bruce Lee was a huge inspiration for aspiring artist Steve Rude. The first film he saw was Lee’s first starring vehicle, The Big Boss (a.k.a. Fists of Fury), a 1971 Hong Kong action film, which The Dude screened for Ye Editor during the interview. Inset right: Bruce Lee portrait by Steve from his sketchbook. Below: Bruce Lee.

Steve: Comics and cookies. They’re the only things that calm me from a cruel world sometimes. They give me a temporary relief from the pain of dealing with people. CBC: Solace. You find solace. Steve: [Confused at Jon’s mispronunciation of “solace”] In people, you mean? CBC: Solace from people… you find a sense of peace. SCR: [To Steve] Not “soulless,” “solace.” You can get solace from the soulless. Yes, yes… and, as Poe would have said, surcease from our sorrows. Steve: Every human being needs a version of that in their life. SCR: For me it’s like looking at EC Comics or a movie, or listening to music. Steve: I don’t know a single human being that doesn’t have to adapt to a version of solace from the soulless. That’s a survival mechanism. And I don’t blame anybody. Poor blowhards don’t have a choice. They have to feel the pain of assh*le humans. But people, you know, they can do things that blowhards can’t. Blowhards can’t pick up a joint and start smoking, you know? Blowhards can’t drink a can of beer by themselves. [laughs] That reminds me of that milk commercial with diks. (I call cats “diks.”) The dik would wish he could grow a pair of thumbs so he could hitchhike to the next town to get milk. [laughs] Do you remember that commercial? That’s like the most creative thinking for a commercial

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Artwork © Steve Rude. The Big Boss TM & © the respective copyright holder.

SCR: You know, one joke I heard from AA was GOD stands for Gang Of Drunks. [The conversation later turns to people imposing limitations on themselves.] Steve: Denial is a survival mechanism that people use to survive and get through another day, but it’s unbelievable the power that people have to lie to themselves about things. They put up barriers… CBC: What barriers? Steve: The self-imposed barriers people put up for themselves as to why they can’t succeed at something. I mean, I literally just don’t comprehend the thinking that people put up these roadblocks. Steve [Ringgenberg] would ask me what should he do to get into the U.S. comic book market? Well, it’s almost like a trick question, for crying out loud. You know? What do you think you should do? And then you just go about doing it. CBC: What do your instincts tell you? But, you know, it’s not a bad idea to ask for other people about their experiences. Steve: Yeah, I just told him find out the editor that works on the books that you’d like to work on, send the samples in. [The conversation turns to the nature of addiction.] Steve: See, I use cookies the same way people use booze and drugs… CBC: Sugar! You’ve got to include sugar in there.

All © the respective copyright holders.

I’ve ever heard. The kitty cat on the corner wishes he had thumbs so he could hitchhike to the next town so he could get a bottle of milk. [laughs] A question, Jon: All my ideas with guests get conceived at the time of. I’m not smart enough to premeditate stuff… CBC: It’s spontaneous. Steve: Yeah. So I wanted to know how far you want to immerse yourself in the life of The Dude. CBC: As far as you want. Steve: Okay. Do you have gym clothes? CBC: Uh, no, but I have shorts. Steve: Do you want some? Because I thought it would be fun to do things that I know that no interviewee has ever asked you to do before. We go to lunch, we go to the gym, you go with me, of course, and then we come back here and I’d show you my whole world upstairs, and then I had some surprises planned that you never would expect that I think you’ll find extremely engaging… because it’s impossible to be bored around The Dude. Are you good for that? CBC: Yes. Steve: Good, good. I love a guest. Okay, then let’s begin. [SCR departs and Steve and Jon are traveling to a nearby restaurant, and Steve discusses traditional interviews.] Steve: I mean, the idea that we have to suffer through one more status quo Q&A or I have to suffer through one more “when were you born, Steve”… it just doesn’t work. Not for a guy as different as I am. So there’s got to be other ways, and that’s the fun of life. I mean, that’s every aspect of my daily life. CBC: That’s it. Mix it up. Steve: Otherwise it won’t work. CBC: [Looking at the local development.] So somebody anticipates this being a big neighborhood? Steve: Yeah. Ten years ago none of this was here. It was just tumbleweeds. Literally. CBC: Do you like the out-of-the-way sense to this area? Steve: I don’t need things like that, but I do need decent neighbors in a respectful neighborhood, and that’s, trying to get that could be difficult in itself. CBC: Do you have it? Steve: Yes, I do. I actually do have it here. I have really good neighbors. And I have fought so many neighbors over my lifetime that I bear the scars of morons… It’s funny, because I have this relationship with the editors at DC, the two women editors who I like. The women I get along with great, because they’re more sensitive and they’re more open to things. And I tell them things about life. We don’t talk about what the soles of Supergirl’s shoes should look like. I talk to them about life, and anything that I may have to pass on to these people here will hopefully be of benefit to them. And if they come out with something like, “Well, I don’t believe you, Steve,” or “You’re exaggerating,” I just say, “Well, you have a lifetime to find out if what I’ve said is true. Good luck. But at least somebody prepped you for it. At least somebody told you about it.” And it’s a give-andtake. It’s not just one-sided nonsense… There’s so much to talk about, there’s so much to pass on, there’s so much to learn from. And that’s supposed to be the ideal way of communicating with your fellow human beings. But it tends to be the opposite of that. People deliberately isolate

themselves. They deliberately hide from things. They deliberately stay in closed areas. And they deliberately try to think that they can handle life on their own. Well, that’s fine. I’m glad you think like that. Good luck. And if you find out that it’s not working, I think you’d better change something about that. The problem I see, Jon, is that… [sighs] Like what Steve [Ringgenberg] mentioned there, he goes to his friend to help her move because she’s a good friend. People don’t have many really good friends. CBC: Right. Steve: And every friend has a different place in your life. There’s no “one size fits all” for friends. They’re all good for something, and they’re all not good for other things. And, to me, that’s the virtue of friends, and the problem of friends. We need help. People need help. CBC: We do. Isolation is toxic, man. Steve: So when I talk to these female editors, we tend to get on some grandiose subjects, stuff like… So far, we haven’t had a lot to talk about with the actual stories because I haven’t started on them yet. They delayed the whole damned thing for a month and that’s driving me crazy. I wonder if it will still come out on time. But you would know obviously better than anyone what the interview process is like for all these people who constitute your magazine, and I would dare to say that 90 percent of them, if not more, take place over the phone in this real kind of standard operation way. Well, I said, well, we’ve got to do something about that. We’ve got to do something different. I’ve got to provide

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

This page: In no particular order of importance, these are some of the luminaries who have had a positive impact on the development of Steve Rude as an artist. At top is Theodor Geisel, better known under his pseudonym, Dr. Seuss, perhaps the most acclaimed of all children’s book authors. Inset left is a humorous self-portrait (from the last page of his book, Fun With a Pencil) of art instructor and illustrator Andrew Loomis, whose instructional art books were hugely influential to generations of artists, including our interview subject. Below is an example of commercial artist Harry Anderson, maybe best known for the “Christ knocking on the UN building” illustration.

be accruing the benefits of hindsight and foresight. What those things have taught me is that you don’t have any time to screw around. And people who do think like that are still young. CBC: They think they’ve got forever. We only have so much time. Steve: [Indicating interstate highway] So this is the Route 10 Freeway. [Points west] If you go that way, you go all the way to L.A. CBC: Really? Steve: You go straight into San Diego from here. It’s a straight shot. Me and Steve [Ringgenberg] made a trip, once, to one of the shows… CBC: Where does it go? I know even-numbered Interstate highways go east to west… Steve: I don’t know where it heads on the east. I’d have to look it up. Did you have a really good schooling, Jon? Do you remember what you learned? You seem like somebody like Steve [Ringgenberg] who would learn all these things… CBC: My mother’s a bookseller, so I know a little about a lot of things. She’s instilled in me a curiosity and I always ask questions. Steve: Oh, like Steve. Is she still around? CBC: Yeah. She’s 86. She’s still sharp. She sells books on the internet. She’s very lively. Steve: That’s a great quality to have had in life. What they pass on isn’t always something that’s bad. When people understand the totality of life, they see that, one, there’s a lot of pain. Two, nobody gets away with anything, and if you think you are, you’re in for it, or just haven’t gone through it yet. But I see life as the Chinese yin and yang thing. It’s the total duality and it’s opposites working in unison, somehow needing one another. Which is a bizarre concept when you think about it. All the worst and all the best is achievable in a mortal lifetime and then you’re gone. And then, the answers that are unknowable to you, ones that everyone fights and argues about, will be known to you. So what’s the hurry? CBC: When I was 20, I went through a near-death experience, and so it #18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All characters TM & © Hanna-Barbera Productions, Inc.

you with an experience that actually enriches your total understanding of a particular subject, in this case, me, in a way that it’s never transpired before, befitting the “eccentric” Steve Rude. In quotes, of course. CBC: What, “Steve Rude” or “eccentric”? Steve: “Eccentric”… Both. [laughter] CBC: Well, that’s very cool. Thank you. Steve: I mean, the whole purpose of life is to live through experience. Not virtual experience like the Sillies do with their stupid computer games. CBC: Well, I mean, part of my quest is certainly to ask questions that have never been asked before and have some pertinence, but often I tend to think the way to get there is initially through often rote questions about early experience that can reveal what makes one tick. Steve: Yeah, and if you’re really going to benefit people who are the audience, they have to have a sense, when they get done reading something, just like with a good book, or a movie, or a comic, or anything that they read or hear or listen to, the idea is to come away knowing something you didn’t know before, that genuinely benefits your life. Otherwise you’re having your experience be something far less than that. You’ve just experienced a bunch of stupid, empty quotes that could have come from anybody. Well, that’s not the purpose of my life. Just like with the DC editors. They have a relationship with me that is separate from anybody else because nobody talks like this to them. CBC: How long do your conversations last? They can last a long period of time? Steve: Yes. CBC: Well, that’s how you and I started this, right? With an extended telephone chat. Steve: That’s right. CBC: You and I had a nice hour-and-a-half conversation [a year prior]and I was hoping to make it a regular thing before my life descended into chaos. Steve: You know, when you get older, Jon, hopefully you’re supposed to

Drag Cartoons TM & © the estate of Pete Millar. Alex Toth photo portrait © Greg Preston. Space Ghost TM & © Hanna-Barbera Productions, Inc.

instilled in me that this sense that this is merely a stage in life, that we’re only passing through this plane of existence. Steve: Yeah. I totally believe that. I was agnostic, but now I’m atheist, but, yeah, that’s totally what I believe. This is just a temporary hangout. CBC: Do you believe in karma? Steve: I’d like to see more of it. A lot more. CBC: Karma is neutral … Steve: No, it can’t possibly be neutral. There’s no way it can be neutral. CBC: How so? Steve: Well, it’s meant to teach people a lesson. It’s meant to sway to one side, which is, you do rotten things, you’re going to be penalized and punished for it. So neutral, I don’t see that at all. Punishment is not fun. CBC: You know, I guess it’s not as simple as good and bad. Not all karma’s bad. It’s that, if you’re messing with things, you still, basically you still have to pay the ferryman, you know… Steve: You mean the guy in the rowboat to get you across the River Styx? [laughs] No, we’ll talk about that, because that’s actually, those things have great substance of thought to them. I’ve seen some great substance of thought. Here we are at the Red Robin. Now, do you guys have those back home? CBC: Yes, though I don’t think I’ve ever been in one … Steve: Well, that’s great. Even better. [Indicates cars in parking lot.] Talk about incidents that you learn from: Back in the ’50s, Ford, Chevrolet, and GM had a rock-solid monopoly. And then something happened and foreign cars started taking market share. And this is always of interest to me, to see how the mighty fall sometimes. Anyone who’s complacent is asking for karma, and it’s not going to be pleasant, buddy. I like the idea that karma is unbiased. CBC: [Indicates fighter jets flying overhead] Do you have an Air Force base here? Steve: Yeah, the Luke Air Force base. [Entering the restaurant and walking immediately to empty table.] Steve: When you’re The Dude, you don’t wait in line. CBC: Because we don’t have enough time left, Steve… we don’t have time. At least the music’s not very loud. That’s good. Steve: No, but it will be. CBC: What did your dad do? Steve: Something so boring that I can’t even relate to it. He sold trucks for a truck transfer company or something. I asked him about it once I and I didn’t understand it. It was something so normal and boring. CBC: Did you say you worked in restaurants? Steve: Yeah, a ton of them. CBC: So you know boring work. Steve: It was necessary work, Jon. Just like the Shaolin monks sweeping the steps for a year and asking, “Is this all there is?” Those jobs teach you things that you can’t learn any way else, if you ask me. You need to go through that process of humility. You know: cleaning toilets… people need to clean toilets in their life. And they need to sweep, and they need to

wash the same dishes over and over for years and years. And you don’t understand it at the time, especially if you’re a dummy, but eventually you’re going to pick up things from that experience… People use the stupid phrase now, “Pay it forward”… I hate clichés, but that’s kind of what it means. You’re paying forward for yourself for later on in life, because life doesn’t stop at 21 or 24 years old, when you’re doing all those dishes. It’s just part of your timeline. You’re born here, you die here, here is the middle mark, here’s the 25th mark, and here’s the 75th mark. Well, every day, when you’re in pain every second, you’re going to experience something and those experiences are supposed to amount to something. They’re supposed to, if you can make it through those moments. A lot of people don’t,

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Previous page: Steve Rude has long loved cartoon adventurer Space Ghost, designed by the great Alex Toth. At top are two pages from Space Ghost #1 [Dec. 1987], with art by Steve, inker Willie Blyberg, and painter Ken Steacy.

This page: At top is random, albeit excellent, Alex Toth page, this from Drag Cartoons #4 [July 1964]. Above is Greg Preston’s photo of the legend. Left inset is an Alex Toth Space Ghost animation design sheet. 55

especially if you’re a rock star. You’re going to be dead at an early age because you’re stupid. CBC: So what’s the accumulation of that? Wisdom? Steve: Everyone will process these different things that we’re supposedly here to learn in their own way. There’s no other way to do it, because everyone’s an individual. That goes back to old school lessons. Not everyone fits in a size 42 coat. Maybe one guy does. Okay, that guy’s meant for a size 42 coat. Everyone else, you’d better get the sewing needle out and start re-stitching. CBC: But we all hurt. We all need sustenance. There are commonalities, right? Steve: Yeah, and that’s why you want to compare notes with your fellow people, because when you start comparing notes, the benefit is you feel less lonely, you feel less “it’s only happening to me” kind of a thing. That is no way to live life, but that’s the way most people do. CBC: And that’s accelerated with addictions and the turmoil, the self-created turmoil. It’s magnified to

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Buz Sawyer TM & © The Hearst Corporation. Prince Valiant TM & © Hearst Holdings, Inc. Self-portraits © the respective artist estates.

such a degree. You think you’re unique… Steve: The more varied you become in your own set of problems, the more myopic you become. And that’s when things get even worse. See, people need to have my self-esteem. You know how Kirby would talk about a healthy ego? A healthy ego is way different from inflated ego. Inflated ego people are delusional. Healthy ego people are like Jack Kirby, assured of their abilities and confident in what’s going to happen even though nobody knows what’s going to happen. But that’s the beauty of having a healthy sense of yourself. Everyone should have that. Then you have roots when hurricanes come — and they’re going to come. Nobody gets through life without a hurricane and the fact that you can even survive some of those, well, that’s a testament to something that can’t quite be…what’s the word I’m looking for? There’s an A word that I can’t think of. I’ll think of it. [Looking over menu.] Steve: Okay, I know what I want. CBC: It took that long? [chuckles] Steve: Well, I’m a guy, you know? Guys don’t need but half a second. I’ve never met a girl that can decide what she wants in under a half-hour. Why that is, I have no idea. So that question about karma is actually fascinating to me. Karma is a perceived force that only humans can detect. Which is sad, because I wish animals could detect it, too, but they can’t. They don’t have the equivalent in their brain, just like they don’t have thumbs. CBC: We can break the cycle. Slow it down. We can mitigate it. Steve: We can do anything we want. But how many people do it? CBC: Well, yeah… since Buddha? [laughs] Steve: Next to no one. I know a lot about Buddha. I like to read about him. It’s fascinating. CBC: Jesus kind of broke the cycle… Buddha kind of broke the cycle… I mean, it’s the journey, right? It’s not always the destination because we never make it out of here alive. Steve: Well, the first thing you can’t do around me is to talk in clichés, Jon. You just gave me a cliché that you’ve probably heard a thousand times. You can’t do that around me because I’ll call you on that. “Journey, destination,”

Flash Gordon, Rip Kirby TM & © Hearst Holdings, Inc. Self-portrait © the estate of Alex Raymond.

Above: Caption.

we’ve heard it a thousand times. No clichés around me. You’ve got to think beyond what you normally say to other people. All right? I nail everybody for this. CBC: But very often a lot of wisdom can be derived from common phrases which can make you perceive the profundity, the meaning… Steve: Well, that’s better. That’s a little better than the last one. You’ve got a great brain. You’ve got tons of experience. That’s a virtue that no one can take away from you. Nobody can strip that from you. Exploit that. CBC: Be original. Steve: And then you’ll be the Jon that you want to be. Whatever you can imagine in your head to make your life better, easier, and more fun, and more rewarding, that’s how you get there. That’s how you get there. And it’s not as hard as you think it is. But when you hang around with turkeys, to use a cliché, how high can you fly? You can’t. You don’t want to be around people like that. The problem is that it’s so hard to find people that don’t think like that. They just rattle off all this nonsense. Certain artists come to visit me and I can get kind of brutal with them. Never meaning to be, but when I see how limited their thinking is based on what they’ve heard from others, I nail them. I have to, because if they’re going to expand beyond the voices in their stupid heads… I mean, think about all the voices in your head. You know, you want to say something, but a voice holds you back. Well, you’re probably hearing somebody that told you something negative at some point. “Don’t say that, because you’re going to get in trouble. Don’t say that, because you’re going to be attacked for that.” For most people, all they hear is what they can’t do and shouldn’t do. Well, how liberating is that? Do you really want to live like that? And if you had the alternative, how much more could you be that you’ll never know about if you don’t liberate yourself from that garbage? When you start eliminating the voices, you’re starting to be in touch with the only person you should ever be. Then you can start to transcend where you are right now. Is there another way to do it? To quote my old teacher, Mr. Owen Kampen, no one’s ever shown me yet. [Lunch is ordered.] Steve: So we have all these potentially really intelligent people in the world, but I’m appalled at how low they set their bar.

CBC: You know, this is really interesting because you seem to me to be endlessly curious. People are afraid of revealing vulnerability because they don’t want to be judged. They don’t want to be hurt, and that’s, I think, why people are reticent, why they find solace in cliché, in banality. After all, let’s look at the culture right now. How banal is it? Look at comics, right? I mean, it’s overwhelmingly… There’s Sturgeon’s Law, 90 percent of everything is garbage. Steve: Yeah, the older you get, the more you subscribe to that, because you’ve got… CBC: That was a cliché, but that’s okay. [laughs] Steve: I missed it. CBC: Sturgeon’s Law. Steve: I know. The thing is, if you’re going to become the total Jon that you want to be and transcend whatever is bearing down on you now forever, you must transcend that. How do you do that? How do you transcend yourself? CBC: If you’re asking a rhetorical question, I’ll give you an answer. It’s all about expectation. Steve: How do you mean? CBC: To me, expectations are poison. If I hold a door open for somebody and only do it with expectations that I should be thanked or acknowledged, rather than the purity of act, being courteous and well-mannered, then it’s not being kind. It’s not pure if you have any expectation of something in return for it, you know? It’s absolutely freeing to recognize I have no control over another human being, just my reaction to life. Open the door for someone because it’s a nice thing to do, y’know? Steve: So you should be at a pretty stable place in your life right now, a pretty happy place if you’re like that. CBC: Besides the fact that being a parent can totally throw that on its ear because your expectations for your children are something you just can’t get away from. [laughs] But other people… it’s complicated by love and by fear. I mean, fear is so much to so many, you know, and you do give off a certain fearlessness… Steve: Thank you. It’s not fake, believe me. I decided a couple things on life because I was determined not to be stupid like everyone else. What I discern is that people actually get stupider with time, not smarter like you’re supposed to. Fear is the biggest reason why. There are two things that happened to me at some point in my life. One was just before I met Jaynelle. I was going to kill myself. And it wasn’t an irrational thing. It was a very deliberate thing that when I said to myself, if it’s this hard to find a mate in life, to find a girl who’s not crazy, who actually I can be a better person with and not a lesser person with, it’s not worth being here. And so, right before I met her, about six

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

This page and previous: Samples and self-portraits of three of Steve Rude’s greatest influences: Roy Crane and his Wash Tubbs; Hal Foster and his Prince Valiant; and Alex Raymond and his Rip Kirby and Flash Gordon.

Above: Steve Rude in his studio, which is open to his two pet dogs, Shadow (left) and Chloe. Your humble editor can attest to the sweetness and affection of these two lovely canines. Below: Sketchbook spread by the artist, which includes an email from William Shatner thanking The Dude for his portrait of the Star Trek actor’s dog, Espresso. “What a gorgeous painting,” he writes. “A real work of art… You have done a terrific job capturing the spirit of our beloved dog… Congratulations to you and I shall treasure this painting. It will be up somewhere important in the house.”

months before, I had broken up with some girl, and I was feeling pain like the damned. It was like being in Hell. That’s how badly those things would affect me. You know, while everyone else just walks out the next day and grabs a beer with a friend, I felt a suffering that is indescribable because of my odd sensitivity. Where’s the problem coming from with me wanting to do this? Well, I decided that I liked myself, I liked the way I was, and that I didn’t want to put up the armor that everyone else does to survive. I didn’t want that armor. I thought it was a cheap gimmick, and that it was kind of a cowardly way to go through life, to try to cut yourself off from all the feelings available to us just because you’re feeling pain. So I decided to feel the pain. And that’s where I came up with that thing that I told you earlier, Jon, about nobody gets away without pain because that’s what life is at least half of, for the most part. And don’t expect to get away with anything, because it won’t work. But that’s what most people do in their life. They try to run. They think that they can actually outdistance the pain. CBC: Why? Steve: Well, that’s what stupid people do. I just told myself, “Well, this is the way it is, and I’m just going to feel it.” Because I don’t want to change. I don’t want to be like those other guys that run from it. Because everyone I knew ran from it. Everybody. It just felt wrong to me to do that. I wasn’t going to learn anything by running from something. Well, you can’t outrun it, for one, thing, so if you can’t outrun it, why don’t you just get it over with? Feel it and get it over with. So that was one big thing. The other was putting fear in the trash can. Because I saw everyone around me being afraid of everything, especially adults, and knowing how wrong that was, there was no way in hell I was going to live like them.

I’m a big, tall guy. And the only thing I had to learn from the prospect of being fearless is learning how to approach people that are assh*les and jerks, and learning how to verbally defeat them without being physical. And I learned this lesson from a couple things that I learned on my own just by doing personal research into this stuff, by just being me. One of those things was, when I moved from Wisconsin to Pasadena, to learn how to be a better artist and find a good teacher who could teach me more than I knew, because there was a lot I needed to learn. Oh God, it was painful. I made a decision, knowing that I don’t remember anything about high school and what they taught me, that I needed to go back and learn things, because I felt really dumb inside my head. I just couldn’t stand that feeling, so I would go to the library after work, like an actual schedule, and I would just walk up and down the aisles, when they still had them, and I would find any book that would catch my attention, and I would pull it out, and I would start to read it. One of the books that I read during that time (this would have been 1988 when I moved) was a book about a black sheriff, and he was telling the story about how he defeated these ruffians without any of the normal violent tactics or hardball tactics that most anyone else would have done in a situation. And it was the story of a restaurant owner that had a biker bar atmosphere attached to it. That guy didn’t want the bikers around anymore, so he came to the cop and said, “What can I do? I don’t know what to do in this situation right here. They’re always going to come back, and I don’t know what to do.” So the cop said, “Shut the place down for a month.” So, a month later, the restaurant was open. The bikers came back. Except, when they walk in expecting the jukeboxes and their dartboards and their beer, they found frilly curtains on the windows and little doilies on the restaurant tables, and it looked like something that a family would hang out in, instead of just scumbag bikers who could do nothing but cause trouble. Well, the bikers never came back. Instant defeat through the mind, not by violence. Now, what kind of person would you rather be, someone who has to physically take on a bunch of bikers and get the crap beaten out of you because you’re not smart enough to deal with it any other way? Or to out-think them, to be smarter, not harder, to use a cliché. What would you rather be in life? It’s not a hard answer, is it? CBC: No. But what would you rather see? Steve: What would I rather see? What would you rather see? Would you rather see the bikers go away and never come back? Well, they found a way to do that. CBC: What I mean to say is this relevant by what do you want to see is through culture…? Culture is violence. It creates a desire to see violence, to vicariously experience violence. What does that say about us? Steve: Well, I know exactly what it means. It means that, if you don’t want bikers in your bar, you find a way to get rid of them, and you let the lesser people that can’t think like you do invite those people into your place. If you think about it, people really decide these things in a very subconscious, if not overtly on the surface level of how they want to conduct their lives and who they want in there, and who they don’t. You just have to be smarter than life. Life is going to give you certain things, but you don’t got to put up with it.

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CBC: This is down the same street as what you were talking about: being fearless, taking fear out of the equation. Steve: Is it possible to do that? CBC: I mean, “We have nothing to fear but fear itself.” That’s still having fear, isn’t it? You know? It’s instinctual, right? That’s “fight or flight,” right? Steve: It’s instinctive. Animals can’t change their nature. People can… to a point. You talk about expectations? That’s a very interesting subject to explore — expectations — and what’s possible and what’s not. When the Sillies were born, I told them, “Daddy has some problems, and there are two categories of problems. There are ones you can change and ones that are never going to change. The ones that are never going to change would never change with me. I get really mad about stuff sometimes, I get really hurt and the Sillies have to see that. And it’s very unfortunate and it really affects Brandon, because he’s sensitive like I am. It’s not going to change. It’s in the category of never changing, so I have to accept my flaws, the basic flaws that I can’t change, and I wouldn’t know how even if I could. It’s so part of my nature. It’s just coming clean. Brandon, this ain’t going to change. The other stuff, maybe I can work on that, but this part right here that you can’t stand is never going to go away. So hopefully you can find somebody that’s compatible enough with you that can tolerate that behavior from you. [Waitperson arrives with lunch.] If you’re ever able to subside fear or lessen it in some way, your life will change in unimaginable ways, all for the better. The problem is, you can’t fake those things. You can’t fake not having something. So you have to almost find a way to outsmart it in some way or to have a reason for something else to take precedence over a bad quality that you have, like fear. Well, the idea that you can outsmart a bunch of hooligans on motorcycles by changing the restaurant décor, that’s smarter, not harder. And that will replace a lot of your fear, because you’re outsmarting a bunch of dumb sh*ts.

CBC: I need to ask: you said, “Never.” How is it never? How do you know? Steve: Well, what part did I say never about? CBC: You said you’ll never change that aspect of yourself. How do you know it’s never? Because of experience? Because of your history? Steve: Well, I can look inside myself and just know, because to do otherwise would be a blatant lie to myself, my nature. CBC: Honestly, I’m not the person who I used to be. I’m not the person who I was because I went through a spiritual process, if you will, and the process was basically about becoming humble. I am the cause of all of my troubles. So if I am the cause of my troubles, then I make a decision not to view things as trouble at all. Steve: What about the good things in you? Isn’t there a balance? CBC: I mean, of course. But I need to focus on flaws, as well as to acknowledge I have good in me, as well. Steve: That’s the balance of life, right there. CBC: It’s about acceptance. I can’t control your reaction to things, or hers or anybody else’s, so I just accept that. I can only control my own reaction to life. So there’s a phrase that I often use and it’s not allowing somebody to live rent-free in my head. Whoever I have in my mind is somebody who is either benefiting me or I owe something to because there’s an explicit or implied understanding between us. I owe nothing to a guy who cut me off on the highway, you know? He’s just a stranger. Maybe I just owe him the benefit of the doubt. I’ll give a stranger the benefit of the doubt, because he could be going to the hospital… or he could be just an assh*le. I mean, I have a lot of rage in me. I grew up with an enormous amount of rage, due to a dysfunctional upbringing, and I’ve learned humans are a different kind of animal. We seek rationality and we can rationalize at the same time. Steve: Most people I know squander their entire lives.

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Above: Lovely Steve Rude painting from 2012 titled “Venus Disarming Mars,” a private commission.

This page: Steve Rude created The Moth, which was initially published by Dark Horse Comics in the late 1990s, a super-hero who first appeared in Dark Horse Presents #138 [Dec. 1998] and later in Madman Comics #13 [May 1999]. The character is a circus acrobat, Jack Mahoney, who developed his Moth persona for a high-wire act and also uses the costume while capturing criminals with bounties on their heads. Above is splash page from The Moth #1 [Apr. 2004]. Below is panel from the character’s debut in Dark Horse Presents #138.

Next page: The creator’s cover painting for Steve Rude’s The Moth #1 [May 2005].

an artist. CBC: I didn’t mean that as a vocation, I meant that… Steve: Yeah, that’s what I meant, too, and my reply was there’s a lot of stupid artists out there. Just because you’re an artist doesn’t make you smart in any way at all. CBC: It makes you more sensitive…? Steve: Not necessarily. Jon, you must have interviewed… CBC: I don’t know what we’re talking about. Let’s define what an artist is. (I mean, never mind defining what art is! That’s tough enough!) But is an artist somebody who makes a living at what they do or is it they have a compulsion to do what they do, which is going against the grain, right? If you say you’re an artist, people kind of look at you oddly. Steve: No, they never look at me like that. All they do is look in admiration. CBC: “You” being rhetorical. Steve: They look at me in admiration when I say that. Always. CBC: Because a lot of people are like, “Oh, he’s an artist. Ergo, he’s not making any money.” Steve: I’ve never had that impression in my lifetime. Never once. CBC: Really? My stepfather is an artist. Of course, he works as a house painter. It can be an eccentric life. Steve: So I’ve heard. CBC: That’s not necessarily understood. My in-laws have never understood my creativity. Steve: You sound like you’ve gotten some pressure from your in-laws. CBC: I had some. I allowed my mind to feel pressure. They’re gone now. They passed away. At the end, we got along very well. Steve: Well, it’s not that you allowed yourself to feel pressure. There was pressure. CBC: Pressure is self-induced, I think. I mean, I manifested it into pressure… I was really torn up about it. Steve: Who wouldn’t be? It’s kind of hard to ignore in-laws if they’re very forceful. CBC: Yeah. Steve: [Long pause] I’m thinking about it. An artist is an individual and individuals are all different. So every artist who you ever talk to is going to be a little different, and that’s the point of everything. That’s the point of your magazine. Every one of these comic book creators is going to create and think differently from the one before them, as you’ve well found out. I mean, nobody can tell you more than you know because you’ve had that direct experience. You’ve had a real experience of knowing that for yourself in ways that others who don’t have the experience never can lay claim to. CBC: I’m just seeking an answer. Why do you do it? I mean, the odds are against you in so many ways. I was really frustrated because I don’t do it, and so I decided to be creative in my investigation into comics art. Why do you do it? Where do you find the courage to do it? And then why do you put up with the sh*t from editors and publishers? And then I’m able to also go to underground artists and we know that they make a different kind of comics. There are those who make a living out of it and there are those who just have to do it. And I’m fascinated by both sorts. Why do you put up with it and why don’t we all do it? What holds us back? Steve: Well, you’re going to find that the answer to why do you put up with it is a very individual perception. It’s not universal. It’s not built into the system in any way at all. Some people, like Jack, or other people who experienced what other people would howl about, complain about, become a victim about, scream about, get mad about, and get manic about don’t have that reality even though the same things happen to them, because our attitudes are all different about that stuff. If you take two people and give them the same conditions in life, that outcome, that outlook, can be worlds apart. Now, that’s just saying something obvious,

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CBC: I absolutely agree. So much of that is fear. It’s fear of change. I mean, is that what an artist is, in a lot of ways? Somebody who wants, in some sense, of having some change, of seeing something different… which makes it intriguing? It’s just not the same, right? Steve: There’s a lot of cowardly, stupid artists out there. CBC: So…? Steve: So just because you’re an artist doesn’t mean you’re going to be… CBC: What do you want to talk about, Steve? Let’s talk about an artist isolating himself. He’s got so much to give and he’s afraid to give it, perhaps. Whatever, you know, he could be the one going to the hospital or just being an assh*le, I don’t know why. How can I determine his motivations? I can only surmise. But with Steve Rude…? I’m going to talk about Kirby, because you say things about Jack that I’ve always felt and cared about deeply. He is the epitome of what it is to be a man. And it’s not even his work. I’ll just say it’s prickly because it’s emotional for me — there came a point in my life with my in-laws, we were having our last son, and maybe we weren’t going to have any more children. So we had a third son, and my mother-in-law was on me to name him “Jonathan Junior.” Right? Okay. No, I don’t want to put that burden on a child. She goes, “Well, then name him after your father.” But I named him Jacob. That’s not my father’s name, it’s Jack’s name, and the reason is because Jack gave me so much. My father was an absent father. He was never around and stuff like that. But the Fourth World, and the lesson of Orion, for me, it’s transcended, it’s taught me so much. Captain America, it teaches me so much about doing the right thing and all the stuff like that. So I guess I’m just returning my love for Jack and I know that you have that love, too. Steve: When I met Jack Kirby, I met something I rarely meet: a real man and a gentleman. I can’t tell you the last time I met a real man from my generation. Someone that stands for all the things that you read about in comic books but never see in real life. And the reason I asked you about that artist thing, you made it sound like, just because you’re an artist, you’re curious and you will automatically advance yourself into a realm of higher perception because you’re

Above: Steve Rude does his but it shows you how, when you’re looktake on Paul Gulacy’s Nexus #1 ing for answers about people and how [1981] cover art for the Nexus they perceive things, how drastically Archives [Vol. 1, 2006]. Inset different they can be from person to right: Nexus action figure. person. This guy’s a victim. This guy

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sees it as an advantage, and uses it to their advantage. CBC: That begs the question: do you believe in predestination? Steve: I have a sense that there are forces at work. Period. CBC: You were an agnostic before and now you’re an atheist…? Steve: Yeah. CBC: Have you sensed, perhaps, even supernatural forces at work? Steve: Yeah, I do. Yeah. CBC: You would think that would be the other way around… that you’d go from atheist to agnostic…

Steve: You would. You’d think. CBC: You’re nothing if not a contradiction. [laughs] Steve: I’m sure Mark Twain had something to say about that, if I could only remember it. CBC: If we weren’t contradictions, we’d have no reason to do interviews, huh? That’s it, it’s the perplexing, scratch your heads vibe. Right? People do that. Steve: Contradictions might be something for other people to figure out, but they all tie in somehow. They all have some kind of internal sense to them. The reason I believe in supernatural things — well, preternatural things — is because I’ve experienced them. And when you actually experience something, it’s hard to refute it. People who don’t believe in little green men have never seen them. But if they did, instant change. Well, I don’t want to be as shallow as that. Just because I haven’t seen them, just because I haven’t stepped in an empty elevator shaft, doesn’t mean I know what’s going to happen if I do. CBC: What? Steve: That’s called human stupidity. CBC: To look at things from a Biblical perspective, I wonder sometimes whether it matters or not, for instance, to believing that Jesus rose from the dead as opposed to know that he rose from the dead (which is ultimately unknowable). The tomb was empty. There were no witnesses to it, but the tomb was empty. So this extrapolation of, “Oh, then he must have risen from the dead and gone up.” Which begs the question whether it’s the perception or the fact that matters? Because the perception can be absolutely profound. The existence of little green men don’t necessarily have to be real. The perception can provoke a person. If they’re a catalyst for change or something that can be positive, what does it matter if it’s real or not? Steve: Yeah, I kind of go with the perception side of things. If you’re not there, if you’re the only guy there to see the little green men, that’s all that matters. CBC: Right. Steve: I don’t know who it was, Descartes or somebody, who thought up that “tree falling in the wood” thing, but that’s what it goes back to. If you weren’t there to hear it, it’s kind of a “so what?” CBC: Right. It’s “man’s search for meaning.” Knowing things. From what we were talking about. This is exactly why we’re here. Why I flew to Arizona is the search for some meaning. Steve: That’s right. It’s why I needed you to come here. CBC: You needed me to come here. I needed to come here. For one thing, okay, I have an artist friend who always pushes me for instilling meaning into CBC. “What’s it about? What are you doing with the magazine? What’s your quest?” So I’m always scratching my head, not really knowing. Am I searching… Again, it’s what I already told you about. Now I recognize it. Why do you do the things that you do? Does it have meaning? I’m not the one to judge that. I guess the reader is the one to judge that. Hopefully I’m asking the right questions. Steve: If you’re not one to judge things with your own life and perceptions, who else should? CBC: Well, I do judge things. Steve: Well, that’s what I mean. CBC: But I don’t have to verbalize my judgment. Okay, I suspect the motivation of my interview subject. I suspect it. Hopefully through the questions I ask and the answers they give, we can be a little bit closer to the truth. For instance, what we’re talking about now, predestination, we’re talking about the nature of fear in our lives. That’s not a usual topic for a comic book artist interview. Steve: I noticed that.

CBC: It imbibes it with meaning, for the very work that we do; for the very work that I do. Steve: My comment about the [Artist A] thing is always insisting that you explain yourself to him. [Artist A] can go to hell. You don’t have to do anything that anyone else tells you what you should be doing. I used to pull this on my wife. I’d say, “Well, Jaynelle, you must have thoughts on it. I want to know what you feel about it. You have to tell me something.” And she goes, “No, I don’t.” And ever since, I’ve thought about that. All I was doing was causing her a lot of unnecessary pain. So I stopped doing it. She doesn’t have to do anything that I tell her I think she should be doing. And neither do you. And neither do I. [Artist A] is like your in-laws. [Jon laughs] A lot of pressure with no positive outcome for it. CBC: Turmoil. I just move along by instinct. You know why? I make obligations and I have to get a job done. So I work my project. I can’t work in a factory. I can’t. I have. I’ve done it in my life. But I can’t do the same thing over, and over, and over again. It’s always going to be a project that has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And, oh, there it is. I can look at it. And it’s like I gave birth to it or whatever, and then the post-partum depression, but then I’m, “Oh, I’ve got to do it again.” So I’m going to keep moving, keep moving like a fish. So it’s that a can have such huge expectation of, for instance, doing an [Artist B] issue or something, but maybe I don’t get the answers that I want, but I don’t have time to sit there and bemoan it. I need to move on, because I need to do the following job. Steve: That situation you just told me about, with [Artist B], is one of the most frustrating I’ve ever encountered, and will ever encounter, in my life. To ask questions and never get an answer. That has everything to do with the interview subject. And that drives me crazy. CBC: Was it the same thing with Jaynelle? Steve: No. No, it’s actually not. CBC: Why? Steve: I get an answer from Jaynelle. CBC: Just by the sake of her saying that? Steve: Well, by however she chooses to answer it, whether it’s a glimpse or an actual statement. The [Artist B] situation, to me, resembles something of evasiveness, and I don’t like that, because evasiveness means fear. When you’re fearful, you’re cowardly inside. Keep your cowardice to your 20s, to your teens. That’s when you’re meant to have all these flaws. The purpose of going further in life is

to banish the garbage from your life, and fear, for the most part, for a huge part, is only there to screw up your life and hold you back. So smart people realize that it’s got to go. If you’re going a dream young, which you already know, achieve more than what you’re capable of at the moment, you’ve got to open up the garbage can and get rid of some of that stuff, because it doesn’t serve any purpose. Well, if it doesn’t serve any purpose, then you’re neurotically hanging on to it by choice. Get rid of it and find out what you’re really made of. CBC: What purpose do you say? Steve: Whatever’s ahead that you couldn’t learn if you were free. It’s so obvious. CBC: Maybe four times so far you’ve used the word “coward.” Steve: Yeah, cowards. I can’t stand cowards. CBC: But who’s to say who is a coward and who isn’t? Steve: Oh, that’s easy. Are you kidding? You just talk to people and they tell you what they can’t do. “I can’t do this because.” That’s one of the reasons you tell a coward. CBC: Wouldn’t you say that some people are crippled by anger, and another maybe had been abused and all that, of being able to, let’s say, to show vulnerability — that they’ve shown vulnerability in the past and they’ve paid a terrible, terrible price for that…? Steve: Sure. It’s a terrible price. Do you still want it? Do you still want to hang onto it? CBC: Maybe that’s all you know. Steve: That’s all you know. But

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Above: The Nexus “Newspaper section” lasted for six issues in 2015–16 and, at a ginormous 17” wide by 22” high, they are truly a joy to behold! Here, reproduced woefully tiny, are the opening pages for three. Below: Panel detail from #6 of the “Sunday funnies” edition.

This page: Steve waxes on about the mastery of artist Paul Gulacy, whose work shone very brightly indeed with his 1970s run on Master of Kung Fu (in most issues numbered #18–50). Above is an undated Gulacy commission piece featuring Shang Chi and his covers for #51 [Apr. ’77] and 64 [May ’78]. Below is Gulacy pin-up from MOKF #18 [June 1974].

want to. There’s nothing to stop you from staying that way. A lot of rage gives people power. There’s a reason to hang onto it sometimes. CBC: I guess, in a certain way. In a transitory way. Steve: It is serving a purpose. CBC: Rage? Anger, I understand, but rage? Rage is a lack of control. Rage is the Hulk. Steve: And anger isn’t? CBC: No. Steve: There’s differences, right? CBC: I think so. Because I think that there’s also natural defense mechanisms. But rage is really fear, a great deal of fear, fear out of control. Steve: Yeah. CBC: For instance — and my sons call me on it — when I’m upset at something else, I can be very snappy about something totally unrelated, you know? And I get called on that and I need to recognize that they are right. And it still happens. I get a bad phone call, I find out that a job’s not done right or something like that, then someone at home says something and I take it out on them. Steve: I know what exactly what you mean. I have a lot of rage. It has a lot to do with fear. It does. And it’s not going to change in me. CBC: I did. There’s a process where one writes down every single difficult moment in their life, to the best of one’s ability, anything that’s giving someone a knot in their stomach. By doing this chronologically, I ended up having maybe 120 pages of notebook paper filled with my resentments. First, I just put all the names down. Then I make a second column and write what was the situation that gave me the resentment. Then I went back and put in a last column was where I put down my role in the situation. And that last task very quickly made me realize I was frustrated because I could not control anybody else. It’s my fear of not being able to control them. And, sharing it with a trusted person, it became a revelation to me, a moment of clarity in that I am at the center of all my problems. It made me more self-aware and I don’t have to be the person I was any more. Rage is addictive. To me, it’s absolutely addictive. I would have that, in a moment of rage, I would be in this almost seductive rush come over me, like satisfaction in throwing a chair across the room, you know? And then an immediate rush of enormous regret afterward. Steve: Yeah, I have that problem, too.

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if you’re an animal, you have an excuse. If you’re a person, you just have a neurosis to cling onto and stay the same dumb self throughout your lifetime. If you’re born dumb, you die dumb. Do you really want to live like that? CBC: But you know that you don’t have to live like that. Steve: You don’t have to if you don’t want it. CBC: But there’s a lot of people who don’t know that, or don’t recognize that. I know what we’re talking about. I’m parsing things in a certain way like [Artist B], who is smart. He knows exactly what he’s accomplished… Steve: But that’s even worse. The guy who knows it but won’t change it if he decides he doesn’t want it. CBC: But it’s not as simple… I just see it as sometimes it’s not so easy to go through the transition. Steve: It’s not meant to be easy. CBC: You can’t dictate a moment of clarity, can you? Steve: No. It comes when it comes, but you have to be looking forward. Otherwise, it may hit you in the head and you’ll never know it. If something is so painful you can either decide to hang onto it or do something to get rid of it, take steps, even if they’re baby steps. It doesn’t matter. We are human. We’re horribly flawed. And some things, like I’ve told you about myself, will never change. But the things I can, I know them, and I’m going to work on them, because I don’t want them anymore. CBC: But I also look to my experience, where I know that I don’t have to be that angry, violent, raging person anymore, myself. Steve: You can be if you

CBC: I think we as humans do. Steve: With some people I have that problem. You know, it’s better than sticking your tail between your legs and hiding in the corner. CBC: What do you mean, hiding from what? From your fear? Steve: Well, you can either explode and throw the chair against the wall or you can do the reverse. CBC: But the reverse would be not to let in to the fear… You can think it through before exploding. Steve: It’s not passive. Passive wouldn’t work with me. CBC: I find that I don’t have to be involved in that situation. (And I’m saying this fully knowing that with my own children I cannot be so dispassionate.) But, just generally speaking, I try to accept that I can’t control anybody or anything. Steve: And that’s okay with you. CBC: Right. Steve: So you can’t control things. CBC: No, I can’t. If a cop pulls me over, am I’m going to be mad at the cop? I have no idea what the circumstances are. I can assume and I can also be wrong. It’s best that I just accept things in that moment. I think it’s not being passive, it’s being peaceful, I guess. Steve: Well, then you’ve achieved something that I don’t have. I have no peace. CBC: Mediation is helpful. But you recognize it, so that’s a very important thing. Steve: People have told me that my whole life and I laugh at that whenever I hear it. I could have figured that one out when I was ten years old. And people always say, “Oh, you should recognize it.” CBC: I would say at least that’s a step, self-awareness. You know, a lot of people… Steve: Yeah, I know most people don’t, but most people are stupid. CBC: Most people are ignorant, not necessarily stupid. Steve: What’s the difference? CBC: Well, that’s a judgment call. Steve: Oh, I’m very judgmental. Very. This whole non-judgment crap came in during the PC age. I was talking with a teacher of Brandon’s and she made some comment, “Well, we don’t make judgments and things around this school.” “Really? So if you’re in an alley and four big thugs come up, you’re not going to suspect that you might be in trouble and make a judgment call on that, you dumb sh*t?” “Well, no, I wouldn’t.” This is a big category with me: the category of

adult lies. If you’re not making judgment calls, you’re lying to yourself because everybody has to decide what they’re thinking about at the time they decide something. To not make judgment calls is an adult lie. They say that because it makes them feel good and it makes them feel like they’re better than someone who doesn’t have that. Adult lies. Only adults could pull that off with such aplomb, with such grace, and so effortlessly. They love that. And if they can get away with it, they keep doing it. CBC: Just call it passive-aggressiveness? Steve: Right there. Until they meet me and then I call them on it, and they get very uncomfortable. Because I don’t let people lie to me because they’re lying to themselves, and someone needs to call them on it. No one else calls them on it because they don’t want to make a judgment against the person who doesn’t make judgments. I’m a very unpopular person sometimes. I’m like a bad conscience. CBC: I was going to ask: what is conscience? Is conscience, perhaps, evidence of the supernatural? Steve: Conscience is something that you’re give to tell right from wrong, because wrong is painful and good is pleasant. I hope you got that. That’s what I have to say about a conscience. Animals don’t have one. They don’t have it like the way we have it. So that makes us assume a responsibility based on the gifts we were given to do something with it, to do something good with it, to recognize what it is and do something constructive with it. Some people use that stuff and end up hurting people from it. That’s what a sadist does. That’s what a human

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This page: Another comic book creator who has made an obvious impact on the development of Steve Rude is the legendary Russ Manning, best known for his exceptional artistry on Magnus, Robot Fighter [Gold Key, 1963–68]. Top left is a typical Vic Prezio painted cover [#17, Feb. ’67] and Steve’s cover for Magnus Robot Fighter/Nexus #1 [Dec. ’93]. Above is gifted drawing by Russ Manning. Below is a piece Steve drew for the Bristol Comic Expo. Alas, despite the inscription, the artist did not make it to the U.K. show.

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monster does. There’s plenty of those. There will never be a lack of them. The only thing there’s a lack of is good people, because all we ever hear in the news is about the bad. CBC: Is it a lack of good in people or is it that good people do nothing? If they do nothing, they’re not good? We are dealing with some issues here, Steve! Steve: “All that remains for evil to flourish…” Right? Do I need to finish that phrase? No. Some are so good they’re worth repeating. CBC: And that’s not a cliché. That’s a truism. Steve: And that one’s so seldom repeated, so that’s outside of cliché territory. CBC: Can I add a contemporary aside here and ask what do you think our obligations as citizens right now are, to live in this particular environment, this time and place right now…? Is it a concern to you, perhaps, that, as a nation, we’re becoming something else than what Kirby would want? What it means to be an American? Steve: What it means to be a decent human being. CBC: An American should be decent? Steve: Absolutely. America embodies the ideals of people with a great deal of consciousness, people with a great deal of conscience have to think about that, because they can’t stand to see bad things destroy something that’s good. So, as far as, like, the obligation of a person goes, I feel that. I don’t necessarily expect others to do that because they’re not like me, but my conscience tells me I have to. That’s why I talk to those editors at DC like I do. We don’t just talk about super-heroes’ hair color that week or something. We talk about issues that they can use to further their relationships with everyone they work with for the better. How to get something out of a truant artist who doesn’t want to get things on deadline. What can you do to help somebody like that? It’s easy to make somebody feel bad and destroy them. Any moron can do that. But if you’re not someone who wants to destroy, and you want to be somebody who is constructive, then that’s how you, your conscience tells you that you have to live your life. And that’s how I have to live my life. Does it drive me crazy sometimes? You bet. It makes me go into a rage that I’m the only guy that picks up garbage anywhere I go. I never see anyone else doing it. It makes me feel very sad, and it hurts me a lot inside. CBC: Does that have to do with your expectations of what other people should do? Steve: The fact that I see no one else doing what they should be doing, like picking up the trash? CBC: It’s not that it’s not being done. Steve: It is that it’s not being done. My reality says that I never see anyone picking up the trash but me. But if there’s somebody in Timbuk-whatever-the-hell picking up the garbage, well, good for him. I don’t see that. It’s not part of my tree falling in the forest. In my immediate environment, I don’t see people doing that and I wish I did. It should be a common, everyday thing that I’m witness to. I’m not, personally. That makes me think very little of people. Ergo, the rage over what should be and isn’t. CBC: What’s it like to be in the middle of it? Steve: The rage? It’s a mania. CBC: Is there a pleasure to be derived from it? Because I noticed that aspect in myself. Steve: Well, I can’t be passive. I can’t be that, because that’s what wimps do in life. Passive people… CBC: The opposite of rage is to be passive? Steve: Yeah. Rage has a purpose to it. Rage makes me so intolerant of the adult lies and the garbage people deliberately perpetrate to exclude pain from their lives that they don’t make any changes due to it. My rage forces me to make changes for the better. As far as knowing what “better” means, just ask the people who I talk to. Are their lives better for having me talk to them or is it not better? And that’s something you simply ask the other part of the equation if it’s true or not, which is the other person that you’re engaged with. CBC: I always thought the opposite of rage was compassion. Steve: Not at all. Compassion is part of rage. CBC: Rage is a loss of control, right? Steve: Compassion is wanting to change something that’s not right. CBC: No, compassion is trying to understand. Steve: Okay, it’s trying to understand. But beyond what you’re trying to understand, it’s kind of an inert quality, isn’t it? It’s a non-judgment quality of, “He’s okay, I’m okay, we’re okay.” CBC: No, you’re seeing it as something else, and what I’m talking about is, like, I don’t have any control over if you start raging with me. I have no control over it. I could manifest compassion for maybe you had a bad day or something like that, but mostly it’s compassion for me, that I can be an example by not raging in return, that I recognize I can be just like you, but don’t have to succumb. I can be self-aware and, frankly, it’s totally selfish, one that is seemingly altruistic. I think my rage through. Okay, right now, obviously we’re in a restaurant and they have a bar here. I could start drinking and manifest my rage that way — self-medicate —then start ranting on about my resentments, and then I’d be angry and one drink is too many and yet there’s never enough to drink. It’s just a weird thing, really. Steve: It’s not a weird thing. CBC: But it’s addiction. It’s not a rational thing. As humans, we want to be rational, right? Human beings are this dichotomy of wanting to be rational but succumbing to irrational behavior. Steve: Yin and yang.

CBC: Exactly. To have compassion for myself in that I think it through. I think through what are the results of my rage. If I go through smashing things, where’s it going to be 20 minutes from now? For me, remorse, regret, and shame. So I recognize that and accept that. If I drink right now, it’s going to end badly. If I explode in a rage right now, it’s going to end badly. Steve: We might see compassion in different lights, as different definitions. Compassion to me is feeling sorry for somebody. CBC: Feeling sorry? Steve: That’s what it means to me, yeah. CBC: I think it’s empathy. Steve: It’s that, too. Empathy is a better definition than what I gave you, but that’s kind of how I see compassion. The problem with compassion is it doesn’t get the other person anywhere else. Okay, yeah, I feel bad for you, but… CBC: That’s not your place, is it? I mean, you’re never going to control another person’s life. You’re never going to control my life. I mean, you could, in a sense, oppress me or become the boss of me, in certain ways, but you’ll never be able to control my mind, the freedom to be inside my head? Steve: How about constructive compassion? CBC: I would say compassion is always constructive. Steve: That’s what I would go for, other than inert compassion. “Yeah, you’ve got a bad life. I feel bad for you. See you later.” CBC: Yeah. I wouldn’t call that compassion. Compassion isn’t an act. Giving love is an act. That’s really what compassion really is. It’s giving love. Steve: To me, it’s a feeling. CBC: I had a near-death experience. I’m prejudiced, because I recognize everything’s love. It’s all love. You have nothing to lose but fear. Steve: Is that what you felt when you died? CBC: Absolutely. Steve: Really? CBC: Unbelievable! As I was bleeding out, all of a sudden, all negativity left me (along with the blood). All doubt, all fear, all guilt. Guilt’s huge with me. Guilt’s one of the biggest motivating factors I have. But then, all of a sudden, after going through this car crash, I’m going to the light (very classic… I don’t even need to describe it to you). The brilliant white light covers me in love and acceptance. Then I’m pulled back and negativity returned (to a lesser degree). But I recognize that the hereafter is about love and no more hurt. Steve: Every story I’ve ever heard about someone dying reflects the same sentiments. Yeah, that’s what we believe awaits us on the non-mortal, impenetrable wall. It’s nothing like here. [The conversation moves to other subjects.] Steve: I’m always flummoxed, when I talk to certain people, who generally tend to be other artists, when they tell me what they can’t do. Like you said [off tape], you want to go to Sedona someday with your wife. My answer is always, “Well, then go!” What I get from people is all the reasons that they want to go to Sedona but don’t. So, in other words, they’re talking themselves out of something they say that they want to do. Another thing I hear from people is, they tell me, virtually in a paragraph, their life story, what they need to do with it, and how to solve their problems in life. Except they don’t do it. They can recite it, but they don’t do it. What’s the point? Do you know people like that? CBC: Sure. In the abstract. Steve: I’m listening to a girl, I remember one time, who would tell me everything she needed to change in her life. I said, “Well, that sounds good.” It’s been eight years and she’s never done a one of them. So I take very little stock of people that can explain life to me but don’t go about to make the changes to make their life better for it. It’s a very cheap, empty quality that everyone seems to possess. “I have the secret to life and I’ll explain it to you, but I can’t do anything about it.” I think that’s pathetic. I don’t have any respect for people like that. The whole purpose of figuring things out is to implement it for the betterment of yourself. If you’re a better person, you can do better for others. And that is the purpose of life, to me. CBC: I wonder if the premise of life is sharing. Steve: Sharing? Well, if you’ve got something to share, that’s germane. If you don’t, you’d better get something to have worth sharing. CBC: Okay, let’s go to motive just for a second. What did you want to do? Did you want to talk to me? Did you want to talk for posterity? Steve: Well, the thing is, I have a lot to say and I want somebody to hear it. And if they can, the idea that somebody can benefit from it, and if they’re just someone who just talks about changes but never does it, to hear me say that in itself that is absolutely useless. And maybe they might rethink that policy of getting nowhere, of thinking you’re getting somewhere by just talking about it, but actually getting nowhere, and not changing anything. So I’m really hard on people who give me that junk answer on life. It reminds me, Jon, of this philosophy student I met one time. I was in Madison, I was walking up and down State Street, and I bumped into this guy I had seen every day. I was in my early 20s, and I asked, “What exactly do you do?” He says, “Well, I’m a philosophy major.” I said, “Well, that’s interesting. Tell me about your philosophy.” And he starts telling This spread: Steve’s latest sketchbook, begun on April 4. Note William Shatner’s salutation [right]. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

This page: Steve’s first claim to fame was Nexus, a super-hero character he co-created with writer Mike Baron. Introduced in 1981 by the short-lived Capital Comics imprint, the adventurer first appeared in three black-&white magazine-size issues (the covers of which are reproduced above), then six color issues before moving to First Comics for an extended run, lasting 74 issues. The Slings & Arrows Comic Guide [1997] opines about the series: “Beautifully drawn by Steve Rude, from the very beginning this was an excellent foray into science-fiction territory, albeit with a costumed central character.” Curiously, the third issue of the initial run contained the “first Flexi-Comic,” a malleable vinyl disk (see below) which, when combined with the printed comic, created a “unique combination of graphics and sound,” or so stated that issue’s editorial. As best as we can ascertain, it was also the last Flexi-Comic. Inset right is a slightly digitallyaltered Nexus figure from a 1986 First Comics house ad.

me everything he learned in class, and I realized this guy is just reciting what he’s learned. He doesn’t know anything, he hasn’t done anything, to deserve a philosophy. So what’s the damned point of it? Well, there is no point. It’s pointlessness. It’s pointless to have every philosophy that doesn’t serve you in life. CBC: It’s not what we learn; it’s what we experience. [Preparing to leave the restaurant.] Steve: We’re going to exercise together. This is my threetimes-a-week routine, working out at L.A. Fitness. CBC: Okay. Watch it with the expectations, Steve. [laughs] Steve: I don’t have any, actually. The idea is that, at the end of the day or when you go home, you’ll have a pleasant experience that you weren’t expecting, because there’s no one like The Dude. [Steve and Jon travel to L.A. Fitness for a 90-minute workout session. By mid-afternoon, they return to Steve’s home and resume the talk as they enter Steve’s studio.] CBC: So this is where the magic is made. Look at this! This is truly luxuriant space. Steve: Isn’t it great? The greatest? CBC: It is. Steve: It is the greatest. CBC: You’ve got an animator’s table! I approve heartily! Steve: It’s the greatest sanctuary an artist can have. CBC: His own space? Look at this. Wow. [Indicates Marilyn Monroe calendar] You like Norma Jean? Steve: Oh, yeah, I love Marilyn. I can’t get enough of Marilyn. She’s just the best. CBC: I fell in love with her when I was 11 and somebody told me she was dead. I was devastated. I saw Some Like It Hot. She was everything to me. Steve: Part one of work is doing it for yourself and part two is what Chuck Jones talked about: making people happy. People always ask, “Well, who do you do it for? Your audience?” Well, no. I don’t do it for an audience, I do it for myself… [indicates studio space] It’s just a place of beauty. I mean, my whole life is up here. [Indicates easel] This is where I do my pastels. I have an oil painting up here at the moment, but I just wanted a place for it. CBC: Do you work in different mediums as the spirit moves you? You know, like you can move here, then you can move there. Steve: Oh. No, I have separate chairs for everything. That’s not what you meant, though. In the old days you had to move everything out of the way to be start on something else, but now I have a station for everything… all the comic book work, the sketchbook stuff. [Chloe trots into

studio] Well, hello, Hard! Yes, it’s the Blowhard. Oh, I know what he wants. Daddy knows. I’m sorry, Blowhard, it’s too hot for you outside. The bunnies are going to have to wait for you, okay? I know. I know you want to go, but it’s too hot for you. Once you get out there, you’ll see. You’ll be too hot, and you’ll come back dying of thirst, Blowhard. Yeah, that’s right. [To Jon] They live for the bunnies. So, yeah, all comic book work, inking, drawing, whatever, and my sketchbook stuff I do over there, and my water-based mediums are over here, acrylics, watercolors, whatever. And over there’s my double-wide animation desk. And that’s where I work on my Nexus cartoon show. CBC: Are you chipping away at that? Steve: Oh, I’m always chipping away at that. I believe in it so much, I know it’ll happen someday, so I’m just going to be ready for it. That’s the model couch right there, and this is where the oil painting takes place, and the pastel work is right here. So I always have something going on, and if I don’t have something that pays, I couldn’t care less, actually. I’ll ask for commissions or…I don’t know.

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CBC: I loved that show! Steve: I turned it on by accident one night and there were these cartoons! I said, “What in the Sam Hill is this?” I had never seen it, I had never imagined such a thing. It blew my mind, and I eventually came to call them the Citizen Kane of animation. And they still are. CBC: My little brother and I, we wanted to do Captain Marvel like that. That was my biggest dream, to do a Fleischer-inspired Captain Marvel/Shazam! cartoon. Steve: Well, that would have been a hell of a dream to pull off. You have to use an army of people to do it and they’d all have to be reasonably competent, or you’d have to have a director that rides shotgun over everybody on staff to make sure that it turns out the way the vision began as. [Indicates panting dogs.] The blowhards are already huffing and puffing it’s so hot in here. He would not last outside. CBC: So when did you first start thinking about a Nexus cartoon? Steve: When I moved out to LA. That would have been in August of ’88. I was extremely frustrated, despondent over the fact that I had been to art school, I had been to more art school, I had taken painting workshops from great art teachers, and I didn’t know enough. And not knowing enough is more frustrating than the pain it takes to accumulate that knowledge. That’s painful. Not knowing what you’re doing is a real pain, but you can change that by just being smart and doing what I do, and move, so you could hopefully find a really good art school, I mean a great art school. And I did find the art school when I moved out here. I started at Art Center. I went there for six months. I would go there after work and take a three-hour class once a week. And I was painting a picture. It was for Nexus #39, and it was the three Loomis sisters, and it was painted with water-based oils. I wanted to try that. And I just got really frustrated, and I had to wake up to the fact that my knowledge was extremely limited, and I needed to learn to free myself from not knowing things. It was not a good time for me. So I went through that for a while. Of course, I had

This page: The Slings & Arrows Guide describes the premise of Nexus thusly: “Nexus is driven by terrible dreams to kill mass murderers. In telling his new lover, Sundra Peale, the story of his life, Nexus explains that his first execution was that of his father, Theodore Hellpop, who destroyed a whole planet before escaping with his wife to [the planet] Ylum, where Horatio [Nexus] was born.” In addition to the initial Capital Comics magazine-size run, Steve Rude would draw the stories for 41 issues of the Capital/First Comics 80-issue run. (For completists out there, the issues featuring Rude art (not counting his covers): 1–16, 18–22, 24–27, 33–36, 39–42, 45–48, 50, and 58–60.) Steve also drew The Next Nexus #1–4 [1989], Nexus: Alien Justice #1–3 [’92], Nexus: The Origin [’92], Magnus Robot Fighter/Nexus#1–2 [’93], Nexus #1–2 [’93], Nexus: The Wages of Sin #1–4 [’95], Nexus: Executioner’s Song #1–4 [’96], Nexus Meets Madman [’96], Nexus: God Con #1–2 [’97], Nexus: Nightmare in Blue #1–4 [’97], the Nexus episodes in Dark Horse Presents #12–15, 23–26, and 29–34 [2012–14], and three issue of Nexus published by Rude Dude Productions [late ’00s].

CBC: You do commissions? Steve: Yes, I do. CBC: How far back are you? Steve: I’m not far back at all. I’m all caught up. CBC: Well, that’s good. [Shadow comes into the studio.] They’re very cute dogs. Steve: Flowhard [Chloe] is half-beagle and half-dachshund. Come here, Flowy. And experimentally, I do hundreds of studies. The studies take the place of that work down there and then over there is my sketchbook, and I’m always working on that. CBC: So this is your sketchbook right here? Steve: That’s my current one, yeah. CBC: [Looking at the animation table] So, I’m curious: is one inspiration, besides Doug Wildey and Alex Toth, the Fleischer Superman cartoons? Steve: That’s maybe the only one, because it was derived from the Shuster version. But DC doesn’t want that version. They had me sign up for Superman, and I said, “Well, that’s the one I’m going to do,” and they said, “We don’t like it.” I told them I wasn’t interested. Today they’re so corporate they’ve become really top-heavy with lawyers. Lawyers don’t care anything about creativity. They care about staying out of trouble. Which seems kind of hard, since they’re lawyers whose job is to look for trouble. And also to avoid it. Lawyers avoid trouble because they’re afraid of trouble. The thing I hate about lawyers is that they’re not anything about justice or anything. They’re about the law. And how much does that have to do with justice? CBC: Right. Pretty much different things. Steve: [Indicates bookshelves.] All the things I’ve accumulated over the years are all on the shelves. CBC: So when did you first see the Max Fleischer Superman cartoons? Steve: It was 1981, maybe. CBC: What was it that struck you? Steve: Well, it was on a show called Night Flight. Do you remember that?

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Above and inset right: Nexus Meets Madman was a 1996 one-shot plotted by Mike Baron and Madman creator Mike Allred, and drawn by The Dude, which The Slings & Arrow Comic Guide lauded as “a delightful if inconsequential episode that doesn’t impinge on either of their ongoing plotlines.” Above is Steve’s cover art and, center inset, it’s Allred pencils and Rude inks on this T-shirt art promoting the two creator-owned characters. Below: Steve Rude’s thumbnail page layouts, drawn on copy paper, for pgs. 17–22 of Magnus Robot Fighter/ Nexus #2 [Apr. 1994].

come to the realization that this idea that you graduate from art school and you’re somehow an artist, I had to just completely abolish that illusion, because it wasn’t true. You get out of art school and I realized you’re actually on the bottom rung of a ladder. You don’t know when you’re ready to be someone who knows what they’re doing, and I had probably five times more schooling than other normal artists at that point, but I still knew I had, I call them holes in my head. They were just blank areas where I didn’t know what I was supposed to be doing to solve problems, or to do better work than I was able to do at the time. CBC: Like, for instance, what didn’t you know…? Steve: God. I don’t know, but when I sat down to do it, the real knowledge was not there. And that involves every aspect of when you sit down and you start a painting, and when you can finish it in a way that your heroes can finish it — because those guys had total knowledge. I had barely half-knowledge, barely even that. And that’s very painful. But the first step is realizing that everything you thought you had is just an illusion, so I had to wake up to the fact that I knew next to nothing about what I was trying to do. CBC: Did that present itself a challenge or was that despairing? Steve: At first it was despair because you don’t understand why you don’t know something when you’ve had all this schooling. You think you should know this stuff. But

nobody was there to hold my hand and tell me, “Well, you know as much as you know based on what you’ve learned from your teachers, but you’re still barely only halfway there.” So that was extremely sobering and scary, because that’s not the way it was supposed to work in my head. You went to art school, you came out an artist. That’s not the way it happened at all. So I had used up all the teachers in Madison, Wisconsin, where I was living, and there was no one else there. So the only conclusion was to move to one of the coasts and being sick of winter like I was, New York was out, so it was “L.A., here I come!” And it changed my life. The Nexus cartoon started when I moved to L.A. — the idea for it came because I was in cartoon-land. I was in Hollywood. And everyone who did my old cartoons was still out there. I met them all. They were still at Hanna-Barbera, most of them. It was incredible. Once they get a job, they stay there. So the guys who’d been working there for 30 years were still there. It was just a thrill for me to meet these guys. I would go there and just sit next to them, and listen to them talk, and ask them a million questions, and try to get them to draw something for me. What a thrill that was. I just loved it. And people need change. Artists need change. So moving from frozen Wisconsin to paradise with palm trees in Pasadena… boy, that was great. And it’s just starting life over again, completely. Scary? So what. It was fun and scary. They kind of go together at the best of times.

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CBC: So this is, when did you start Nexus, ’81, ’82, something? Steve: Nexus started in 1980, I think. CBC: So you had already been at it eight years by ’88. Steve: Yeah, eight years of drawing Nexus. There’s a difference between how much I understood about drawing compared to illustration, like fullblown paintings, because this stuff is the ultimate test. You have to know five times more than just pure line draftsmanship to pull off something like this. In the painted work usually you’re dealing with color guide use edges and composition, all this stuff. And there’s no faking that. You can’t fake knowledge. So you set about getting rid of the sense that you know more than you think you do, because you don’t. When you realize that, you have to make changes right away. There’s no screwing around here. CBC: For additional instruction, you went to night class? Was that it? You said three hours a week? Steve: Yeah, it was a three-hour class once a week. That’s all I could afford, working full-time. CBC: What were you doing for work? Steve: I was doing Nexus. And I remember the editor from First Comics kept asking me to delay my move from Wisconsin to L.A. And then I realized, well, this dumb*ss doesn’t care anything about my life. All he wants me to do is stay on schedule. Well, to hell with that. I set my timeline to move in August and I was damned well going to do it. And when I started to realize that everybody has their own twisted agenda based on their own needs, you stop living your life according to other people’s needs and you start living them according to your own. You’re a better person for that. CBC: Growth can take place. And so what changed for you? What was specifically in that class? What was it? You started filling in the holes in your head? Steve: I started to fill in the holes right away. These guys knew their craft literally a hundred times better than anyone. CBC: And were they artists of note or just damned good instructors? Steve: They were not artists of note, just really good instructors. I remember everything they told me. If you go up and look at all those sketchbooks COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

up there, you’ll see an entire session of the book devoted to learning and taking notes, and relearning, and practicing, and thinking about it. All that stuff where you’re trying to set the knowledge of what you were taught into your actual work. Because obviously you don’t want to forget it, you want to learn it, so you learn it by thinking about it and perpetually doing the repetitions of what you’ve been taught so it stays in your head. CBC: [Indicating a Supergirl painting on his art table.] These are for DC, obviously…? Steve: This is something I just did on my own, waiting for their scripts to come in. God, there should be a little thumbnail here. Oh, there it is. Yeah, I did one of these first, and then I’ll reduce them to this size, and then I do my color ones here. I do one of these. I do the line art, and then I block any pencil shades, and then here I do a little color rough. I reduce them on a Xerox machine and I color them in. So once I get that kind of sort of nailed down, then I can go to the final right here. And I can sweat that one out. CBC: [Indicating thumbnail] It’s actually a revelation to see this really loose, open style from you… Steve: I get totally impatient with the process. I just want to get it the hell done, totally get it done. CBC: It seems freeing to be this loose. Steve: Good. Yeah, I like that. CBC: Yeah, it’s nice. That’s cool. And down here on the coffee table you have a piece. Are you just liking Supergirl right now? Or you need to be thinking about Supergirl? Steve: Well, I’m supposed to be drawing a monthly book and, after waiting a month, I finally got the first script in. It should have been here a month ago, but they’ve been having all these conferences, and writer meetings, and all this blah, blah, blah. And finally I wrote them and said, “Give me the damned script. Now. Quit screwing around with me here.” So next day I got one. You gotta bark loud at these people sometimes. I am the guy to do it. [laughs] One of the secrets to life, I’ve learned, is to make your feelings very Top: Painting by The Dude of Yvonne Strahovski [2013]. 71

me. Alex Wald, the art director from First Comics, was great, though. I remember having a great time with him. He used to come over and visit me in Pasadena when I was doing the last work on Nexus before they sold it to Dark Horse. And he was just a great guy. I really liked hanging out with him. He was a very gentle guy and I work well with people that were genteel than brusque. The Capital days were when everything started for me. I couldn’t get work from Marvel. I wasn’t good enough. Even though I would spend every last cent I had working for my menial jobs to get up to New York, one year at a time. The first year I went by train, I think. CBC: From Wisconsin? Steve: Yeah, from Wisconsin. Or maybe it was bus. I don’t even remember. CBC: That’s a lot of riding. Steve: Yeah, but, you know, I was just so. I mean, I didn’t understand barriers. I didn’t understand what you couldn’t do. And I hated people to tell me what I can’t do. CBC: You use the past tense, but could you use present tense on that, too? Steve: Well, yeah. Anybody who tells me what I can’t do, they’re in trouble with me. And if I’m around anyone who’s telling me what they can’t do, I quickly turn their heads around. Where does this nonsense come from? Why do you think everything I’ve been able to accomplish you can’t? Do you want it or not? And, if you do, cut the crap and start doing it. But at Capital is, that’s when it all started. That was always exciting. You’re just a young kid. CBC: I’ve been doing magazines about comics for 20 years and I find I’m not necessarily finding out the nature of the artist or the writer, but it’s the nature of what makes for a good editor. For me, it always kind of came back to, generally speaking, probably the most celebrated editor of all, certainly one of them, Archie Goodwin. Steve: Yeah, I remember Archie when I went up to Marvel. The very first time I went up there and he looked over my Nexus stuff. I was with Paul Gulacy, who came to the office with me. You know, everyone talks about how polite he was and all that, but, to me, he left me with a comment that I never forgot, which was — and this is a quote — “Well, it’s not terrible stuff.” Unquote. That was all he said. When I go out there to offices like that and spend every last cent I had to get there and back, hopefully, I want to come back with something that I can use to help improve. I want solid counsel on things I can genuinely look at and improve. Goodwin didn’t give me that. He wasn’t one to be verbose about that stuff, which is a shame.

clear about things. Hopefully you do it in a polite way, but you need to be very home, so there’s no chance of misunderstanding going on. You do not want to learn is learn the art of mixed messages. CBC: Who’s the most professional that you’ve dealt with… was it Richard Bruning? I read you talking about Richard and talking about Capital, back when it was a small publishing outfit. Steve: Well, that’s only because they asked me about it. They asked me, and I told them. CBC: What’s your favorite time working with a publisher? Steve: Well, with First Comics, I remember feeling a lot of pressure and there was an editor there who was a little on the manic side. And his way of dealing with people who were slow in getting the work in was to scream and yell. That’s not good, especially to someone like me. You don’t do that with someone like me. You know I’ll give it right back to you. And all you can do is cause resentful feelings. You try to yell at me, it’s not going to work. It might work with people that are easily intimidated, but it doesn’t work with #18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Above: Batman as rendered by The Dude in 2008. Inset right: Steve’s 2008 commission depicting the Darknight Detective and the Man of Tomorrow. Despite the artist’s difficulties from DC execs regarding his “retro” visual take on the pair in the 1990 World’s Finest mini-series written by Dave Gibbons, The Slings & Arrows Comic Guide raves, “Steve Rude’s city designs are excellent, and he also captures Superman and Batman very well, with an original take on the latter. It’s taken a long time, but this is finally a series that lives up to the title, with the best Batman and Superman teaming since the 1960s.”

CBC: That’s you giving a cautionary tale about perhaps that’s not the way for an editor to deal with a person who’s came that far, who is young, new, and enthusiastic… Steve: He could have given me a lot more than what he did with that one line. It was not constructive or helpful at all. You want to know why it’s “not terrible.” You want someone to sit down with you and one guy who did do that for me was Dan Adkins. I met him up at the offices and he was just great. I remember we were walking outside on the streets of New York in the summertime and he always carried a briefcase with him. I was asking him all these questions about things, about comics, and we stopped right on the sidewalk, and he bent over, opened up his briefcase, and started showing me work that would help me out, and showing me pointers in this guy’s work and that guy’s work, that was going to be helpful to me. And I really liked that. Adkins was just a great guy, and he was the guy who helped all those Ohio guys get in the business, you know. And those are the kind of people you want to be around. You want to be around these older guys that like to talk and just shoot the breeze. CBC: I’ve never heard any artists talk much about Gulacy prior to reading The Comics Journal interview you gave a while back. His Master of Kung Fu came rushing back to me, how much I loved it as a kid, and his phenomenal growth as an artist in such a short period of time, and how special it was to me. Master of Kung Fu was akin to Tomb of Dracula as far as being consistently excellent. For me, with Moench and Gulacy, it never even let me down. What is it about Gulacy? Steve: Well, he was a genius from an early age. CBC: What made him a genius?

Steve: Simple. You just look at his work and you can tell the guy’s a genius. If you saw work that he did when he was 19, it was all these religious paintings that he did just for the sheer hell of it, and you realize you’re in the presence of someone with extreme aptitude. I mean, just way off the charts. And these were full-blown oil paintings and they were beyond belief. CBC: This is before “Morbius” and his very first stuff at Marvel? Steve: Yeah, I think so. Which makes it even more uncanny, because his draftsmanship was still a little shaky when he first started. CBC: Yeah. Enthusiastic, but, yeah. Steve: But Gulacy was one of these guys that has something in common with all of us that get into comics, Jon, and that is that we wanted to tell stories. We love to draw and we love to tell stories. Well, that equals a comic book artist. And Gulacy improved exponentially like no one I’ve ever seen before. Look at his first Master of Kung Fu issue and then look at the stuff he was doing within ten issues or less. And you’re right, no one ever talks about him. He never won any awards back then. They were given away to lesser talents than him. But his storytelling, to this day, remains the absolute pinnacle, a paragon of storytelling perfection. And why he’s not talked about more based on that work from those 1970s… I mean, he’s a changed artist these days. He doesn’t do the kind of work he used to, but during that time, he was unassailable. To this day, there are two sources I go to routinely for what I’m doing in my thumbnails, my layouts for my books, and that is Gulacy’s Master of Kung Fu or anything by Kirby. Those two guys are the go-to guys that I always derive

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Above: Presumably a commissioned painting of Batman fighting the Nazis during World War II, from 2017. Below: The artist’s preference for the earliest incarnations of the “World’s Finest” team is apparent in this drawing from 1989.

on this guy here. So you take that and you combine it with art school, the training you need to not be dumb, and to learn what you need to learn. What people don’t realize is that it’s a lifetime journey. At every moment, it’s part of a larger journey, which you don’t know about until you’ve got some age under your belt. CBC: Yes. Is there a goal? Steve: Well, the goal is to not be bad at something. The goal is to learn stuff so you get good at it, and the more good you get at something, the more fun it is. CBC: You know, I think there’s one thing that I’ve felt with Alex, talking to Toth, looking at the work, and sensing a hesitancy that he had. For instance, I had him do a cover for me, and he just struggled with it, he just really struggled. And it came out half-assed because he ended up using two images that just didn’t work as well as one would. It seemed to me that he had this just terror of not being able to top himself, of risking failure in a public way. Steve: Isn’t that interesting? Living up to his rep, you mean? CBC: Maybe. I don’t know any more. Maybe he didn’t want to look weak. Maybe he didn’t want to risk having people see him not being better than the time before. Steve: Well, that’s, in order to answer that, the only way you’ll ever get a real answer is to ask somebody point blank. You know, “Alex, you say you’re struggling with this. Why? What’s wrong?” CBC: You know the man, right? You knew the man? Steve: Yeah, I sure do. Yeah, I do know him. CBC: I was estranged… which is a kind way to put it. Shut out, though at the end we were cordial. Steve: Oh, well, that’s standard procedure with Alex. You don’t have a relationship with him until you’re shut out. I guess that’s part of the process. CBC: That’s an interesting way to put it. It doesn’t become Above: Limited edition poster commemorating the Max Fleischer Superman cartoons of the early 1940s, rendered by Myron Waldman, an animator who worked on the original run released by Paramount Pictures. Inset upper center: Poster for the Technicolor cartoons which are of an excellence rarely matched in animation. Inset right: The Dude’s version of The Man of Steel owes a lot to the Fleischer influence.

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massive inspiration from to help me expand my brain about what’s possible. There are other people, of course, that can do the same thing for you, but not to that degree. CBC: So you could look over Kirby’s work, material you’ve looked over many hundreds and hundreds of times, and you can still derive fresh inspiration from it…? Steve: Yes, because I find different ways of dissecting the work. One way was, when I was trying to learn how to write for the first time, and this is what it comes down to, the socalled common sense of just solving your problems in the most basic kind of way. And that is, if you want to learn how to write, read great writers. But, for me, that process had to go a little beyond that, and all I did was, my way was to, page by page, panel by panel, break down what happened in the story. First, you pick a favorite story. Obviously. And the one I picked in the case of learning to write was Kamandi #2, “The Year of the Rat.” I just loved it. So if you love something, dissect it. Figure out how it works. And that’s what I did. I needed to figure out how it worked so well, why I liked it so much. So you just start breaking it down. You just go through the so-called beats of the story. And when you look at them objectively, dispassionately, and just see how the structure works, and then you take note of the little things that meant so much to you in a particular story, and you combine those two, and then you should learn at least some foothold in the art of writing from that point. It’s the same with art. I always had an inspiration to make me want to draw. It was either a comic book guy, an illustrator, or somebody I just plucked out of the sky, someone I saw in a magazine and thought, “Boy, this looks great. I’m going to copy this drawing.” And I would try to learn to paint based

really real until you’ve made an enemy or something? Anyway, do you fear that? Do you fear not topping yourself? Steve: I specialize in not allowing fear to paralyze me… CBC: So you’re not competing with yourself? Steve: Oh, I’m always competing with myself, but mostly with just myself. But I also use my great guiding lights in art, the famous illustrators that I like so much and the great comic book artists of the past, I must emphasize that, as beacons to row towards, because those great guys from the past are the guys that still have so much to show me, and the more I can learn from their great work, specifically Hal Foster and Alex Raymond. And a lot of Roy Crane thrown in there, too. CBC: Is Milton Caniff in there? Steve: No, he’s not. CBC: Sickles is not in there? Steve: No, he’s not, either. What I learn, I can get it from Roy Crane in a much more simplified way. CBC: Are they your peers? Steve: Like Alex Raymond? Oh God, no. No. I never think of myself as a peer to those guys. Those guys are the apex. CBC: Is Kirby up there, too? Steve: Oh God, yes. I will never have the kind of ego where I’m on equal footing to those guys. It’s impossible. I like having mentors. CBC: But they’re colleagues, right? Steve: No. They’re not colleagues in any way to me. They’re people to shoot for. Colleagues means, has a kind of connotation of equivalence, and there is no way that I ever imagine thinking like that. That would be very uncomfortable for me to think like that. To me, they’re always beyond reach, but you’re always trying to reach, continually… That’s part of the fun of the journey is reaching and using the people who you admire more than anything as guys that are going to show you what you still have left to learn, which is an endless process. There’s no finite

sense to it at all. It goes on until your dying day. But, as I like to point out to people, that’s what a life is for. That’s what your life is for. CBC: But you know your work, and you know your value, right? Steve: Yes, I do. CBC: And you have a healthy ego. Steve: Yes. CBC: And yet you still retain this humility about the masters, which is interesting. Steve: I couldn’t imagine thinking any other way. CBC: But there are those, perhaps, who are going to-Well, other artists can call themselves colleagues… Steve: Well, you might as well have a stake in your heart when you start thinking like that. That’s just plain scary. You might as well cut out half your brain. CBC: Is that part of the internal creative engine that you have to maintain that humility and just to strive? Steve: I like striving, I like practicing. If you don’t have a healthy sense of humility, you have a very distorted sense of your place in the world because, as hard as I try, and as much as I love practicing

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Above: The artist’s reverence for the Fleischer-produced episodes of the Superman cartoon is obvious on this poster, which was published as a limited edition in 2016. Bottom: Color thumbnail and preliminary sketch for the limited edition poster. For an amazing array of available items produced by the artist, including this 2014 Steve Rude Sketchbook, visit www. steverude.com. See ad herein.

This page: Lovely renditions of Wonder Woman as envisioned in the fertile imagination of Steve Rude (who deserves his own run on the character, eh?).

when Alex was talking that way or… I don’t know what he said to you. Did he say anything… ? CBC: Well, he said, “Yes, I want to do an issue,” and then, when presented with his interview, cover, layout… everything is wrong, wrong, wrong. We had an interview that the person who conducted the interview took their name off it because Alex completely eviscerated the interview to maybe 25% of its original length, and this is at deadline, so I was really, you know, put in a terrific spot. Steve: You have my deepest sympathy, working with Alex. CBC: You know, he was a damaged person, no doubt, and that’s one of the connections I had with him. He had a very rough relationship with his father, as I did. But he just had a great sweetness about him, too. I don’t know if it balanced out because there were so many people who were hurt by him, but I’ll always acknowledge that. I’ll always acknowledge that there was, I had a very sweet phone conversation with him and he sent very friendly, kind postcards. Steve: Well, that’s interesting, isn’t it? CBC: And you know what’s funny? Mentally, I picture him as a different person than this mean-spirited guy we all know of. It’s funny. And he was a true fanboy to the end. He taught me more about obscure artists I didn’t know about. Steve: I think that’s one of the big secrets of staying happy in life is to always just to have a fan mentality. You know, people always come up to me and they gave me this line, almost like it’s a rote line or something, “I hate to be a fanboy” — a word that I hate, by the way… “fan” is perfectly accurate, thank you — and they say, “But…” And I said, “You know, I don’t know why you feel you have to say that to me, because, one, I’m the biggest fan of all. That’s why I’m in the business. And being a fan is a privilege, not a detriment. You guys make it sound like it’s something to be embarrassed about. Why do you think like that?” And there’s two things you need to make that work: You need

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or studying, there are colleagues like the people that are around today, and then there are masters. CBC: Is there any living master? Steve: [Pauses] There’s plenty of people in the fine arts field, but as far as comics go, they tend to be dead… CBC: [Laughs] Tend not to be living. Steve: Yeah, my masters tend to be long gone, but that is part of the excitement for me, because I always have a star to point to and say, “I want to be that good. I want to get there someday. I want to keep trying.” People that are cage fighters, I watch some cage fighting stuff on YouTube, and they all think the same way. I’ve got a lot to learn, but, because of the work I’ve put into something, I’m very confident in my abilities. That’s a good way to think about this stuff. But, like, the Toth thing you were talking about…? That’s going way too far. That’s going to cause a lot of upsets that don’t need to be there when you’re too hard on yourself. If you’re so severe in one direction, you’re going to have a severe imbalance in the other. And so it sounds to me like that’s what you were dealing with

two parties that are, that one, know the art of conversation. That seems to almost be a lost thing these days. Either people monologue or they don’t listen to the answers. CBC: That’s not a dialogue. Steve: It’s not. So there’s a real art to conversation, and you know when you’re in a good conversation with some people when you feel fulfilled at the end of the conversation. But, in order for that to happen, you know you have to be listened to, and you have to know that the other person made a healthy contribution to making the conversation interesting and fun. Kirby was the perfect example of that. Kirby was as humble, literally, as the dirt of a golem before he was a golem. The dirt on the ground. I just loved it. CBC: Did you have an extended conversation with him? Steve: Every conversation I had with him was like going up to the Burning Bush in ways that only I could perceive, me being me and all. Everyone perceives things on a different level, and I remember, after Jack died, we all went back to his house. CBC: To Roz’s. Steve: Roz was there. Were you there at the funeral? [Jon shakes his head.] I couldn’t believe the shallowness of some of the people that I would meet there. Some people are so inadequate when it comes to genuine emotions and feelings that they would say things like, “Isn’t it a bummer?” that’s what you say at a guy’s funeral…? Well, the people that say those kinds of things have a long way to go with their character. People who have substance inside of themselves don’t say nonsensical lines like that. They don’t know what to say, so they’re going to throw anything out there just to say it…? That’s how you know a person who is kind of empty on the inside and I don’t like to be around people like that because they don’t teach me anything. I went back to Roz’s house afterwards. We all wanted to be with Roz, and some turkey comes up to me. I’m up by the pool there, alone and he goes, “What are you doing?” I said, “What do you mean, what am I doing? I’m just sitting here, thinking. I’m communing.” He goes, “What? Commune? Community? Hippie commune? What?” And I just, I wanted to get the guy out of my life as quickly as possible because I was obviously dealing with somebody with the IQ of a tortoise. So that’s the kind of stuff someone like me goes through with the outside world of fellow human beings, and the interactions I have to go through to get through the day. CBC: You were hurting because Jack had just died, right? Steve: No, I wasn’t. All I felt was the wonderment and the genuine fulfillment and positive feelings of having met the greatest artist in comic books that will ever exist. I felt nothing but positive things inside of me that I had known this great man. That’s what I felt. There was no sorrow; there was no pathos involved in the situation from dying. It was: his time had come and he did everything he ever wanted in life. You want more of a life than that? That’s all you’re ever going to get. So people who squander their time in life, they don’t have the same kind of sympathy for me from people that grab every moment for what it’s worth and try to make something of it. And, besides, I know that Jack is still… he’s up there someplace. I heard the story from his best friend at the actual funeral, who had been talking to Jack at the hospital after he died. After he had died, Jack was talking to him in the parking lot as the friend was going to his car. So when you hear stuff like that and you know how genuine it is, why would you feel anything other than benevolent feelings towards a guy who did nothing but make your life better and give you a happiness that few could ever transcend? CBC: Did you watch Kirby draw? Steve: I asked him to draw for me once and he wouldn’t do it. I used to ask myself, I would say, “Look, I’ve been over there three times already and I’ve never asked him to draw. What’s wrong with me?” And I don’t know why I ever asked him, but the one time that I did realize, “Geez, I’m letting this moment get away,” and I did ask him, he wouldn’t draw. I’m

not sure why he wouldn’t do that for me, but he did threaten to beat me up for asking him that. CBC: Did he? Steve: Oh, he was the most pugnacious little guy you could ever imagine. He was just the greatest guy. And that is a contradictory thing based on the fact that he wouldn’t stand up for himself all his ten years at Marvel, ask for a raise, insist on one, insist on a piece of the pie, when they were mistreating him there horribly, as they were. A lot of it had to do with Martin Goodman, the scumbag that he is. I hope he’s rotting in hell for what he’s done during his time on earth. He was not a good man. He spent his time hurting a lot of people for no reason other than just to have male power over people… that’s not how you should live your life. CBC: You’re talking about Carl Burgos, Bill Everett… Steve: I don’t know about those guys. I just know about specifically how he treated Jack Kirby, how Marvel treated him. If you want to die being hated by people, that’s how you do it. You treat them crappy

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Above: This “At the Fair” painting was intended as cover for an issue of Wonder Woman in 2000. Below: 2006 commission piece by The Dude.

This and next page: During CBC’s participation in “A Day in the Life of the Dude,” the artist gave an extended art lesson to the editor, going through the step-by-step process of replicating a 1920s era photograph in a pen-&-ink drawing. At top are the pencil and brush stages of the process. On next page is a close-up of Steve’s finished piece and clearer view of the referenced photo. To the right of that pic is your humble editor’s valiant attempt to ink a Rude drawing based of Frank Frazetta’s painting Catwalk (seen at bottom alongside Steve’s pencils of same) which also features Steve Rude’s kind inscription. Below is The Dude at his art table upon giving instruction on the art of simplicity in design during CBC’s visit in late June of this year.

while you’re alive, so you’re guaranteed to go to your grave being a hated human being. I guess Goodman didn’t put a lot of thought into that, did he? Roz was always wonderful. She was a perfect complement to Jack’s… I don’t know what the word is, actually. CBC: She took care of him. Steve: Well, she obviously took care of him, but she allowed him to be what he was on this earth to do, all the time, all day, every day, every year, every decade. That’s what Roz allowed him to do. And I asked her something along the lines of: how was it being married to Jack? And she told me, “Well, it wasn’t perfect.” Which is, if you’ve got any answer other than “it wasn’t perfect,” you’re not dealing with a straight human being. They’re fudging in some sense. But I said, “Did you ever go on vacation?” She says, “No. I’m with Jack.” She never went on vacation with Jack, because Jack was always there working. If she wanted to go on vacation, she had to go with her sister back home in New York to Coney Island, places like that. But Roz was just that very archetypal calming presence that Jack needed to perform in the midst of all these rotten people he was forced to deal with throughout his lifetime. CBC: So, Roz says it wasn’t perfect. Do you think that his dedication to work, his… some would call it workaholic-ism… was it detrimental to family…? Your studio is out

in the open, no closed door to the rest of the house, and you’re engaged with family life. Jack was in a basement. They didn’t go on vacations because he was always working. He did three comic books a month, a phenomenal commitment of time. Do you think there was a sacrifice? Steve: How can there not be? Smart people in life pick their sacrifices. Stupid people just allow it to overwhelm them without any sense of being in control of their life. CBC: What have you sacrificed? Steve: Nothing. I don’t feel like I’ve sacrificed anything at all. Jaynelle is just wonderful… She knows how important it is. My work life sustains a huge part of me, the inside stuff, and I have to have that. Work provides me with that. CBC: But you’re not isolated, right? Steve: Well, I want to be. I want to build a wall here and have a door, but they couldn’t make it work, so I’m stuck being in full view of everyone that comes back and forth here. But it hasn’t bothered me because the Sillies are very polite and their friends come over and they’re always very polite, and they want to see what I’m doing. CBC: [Looking over the studio] This is really nice. Steve: Yeah, it’s just the greatest thing. CBC: Do you listen to music while you work? Steve: And I have some tapes that I listen to. Mysteries, sometimes horror novels. I like scary stuff. I don’t like gross scary stuff, disembodied this and that. I don’t want to hear about that. CBC: Suspense and thriller? Steve: Yeah CBC: Old time radio? Steve: Yeah. I have bunch of Shadows in here, Lights Out, Johnny Dollar. Just tons of old stuff. Whoever invented the phrase “theater of the mind,” I’d like to meet that guy, because when a person thinks up a phrase that perfect, you’re dealing with someone who’s not only experienced it, but thought about it in a perfect way. He’s distilled radio down to… what is it, four words? I wish I knew people like that in my life, but I don’t tend to meet people like that. What I meet is people that would give me four pages rather than four words… I’d rather find somebody that can do it in the four perfect words to describe something. Because those guys, their genius maybe will rub off on me and I’ll start to pick that up, I’ll have a sense of, “Well, this is the perfect way to explain something.” Baron is capable of that. Baron is a man of few words. He always has been. So he’ll just rattle something off and it’ll be kind of in the vein of that, the theater of the mind as a way to describe something, in this case radio. So he’s really good about that. CBC: In your Comics Journal interview, you said, “I don’t think Ditko could draw very well. He didn’t draw very handsome people or very pretty girls.” Is that the criteria for being good?

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Steve: Well, it sure helps. [laughs] CBC: To be idealized? Steve: I just thought he had an ugly style. CBC: Now, I know you were talking about Ditko. It was an interesting turn of a phrase. Steve: In a general sense, you mean? CBC: Yes. So, like, it’s interesting that maybe Caniff doesn’t turn you on, but Hal Foster and Alex Raymond did, who both drew exquisitely beautiful people. Steve: That has a lot to do with it. My sensibilities are very in tune with idealized people. It’s the same thing as casting the most beautiful girl and the handsomest guy in a movie or TV show. Obviously, you’re going to gravitate towards people like that. CBC: Your work is very idealized, with extremely handsome people… Even your Hulk is really good-looking. Steve: Well, he comes from Kirby, of course. CBC: Yeah, right, buy still better-looking than Kirby’s. Steve: Kirby did a better Hulk. I’m just trying to measure up. My training has, all my training has classic roots to it, classic illustrators, classic draftsmen, and that’s my identity. I found my identity. Everyone has to find their identity at some point, and I found mine through idealists, for drawing and inking. CBC: Is it a black-&-white road? Steve: It can be more black-&-white than a lot of people who are confused about the state of things make it. People who ride the fence on everything, they see the point in everything, and they never commit themselves to a point of view on anything. Everything is morally neutral. Well, it’s not morally neutral, not in my mind. If you see somebody beating somebody up, go stop him. That’s morally neutral? Give me a break, you knuckleheads. So that kind of thinking is just, to me, it’s sissy thinking. It’s a convoluted, cowardly mindset, where people just don’t want to ever put their judgments forth on things, take a stand on something, and assert their opinions over things that they know are right and wrong. And they do that because they’re afraid. CBC: They sit on the fence because they’re afraid. Steve: Yeah. And how comfortable is it sitting on a bunch of pointed planks? It’s not. But they’d rather do that than be assertive, think for themselves, and take a stand on something. I have no patience for people like that because they’re what I called, like I said earlier, adult liars. They’re people that convince themselves that to make moral judgments on things is somehow making you a bad human being. No, it makes you an idiot to not think like that. You have a brain. Use it. Decide what’s right and wrong and lead your life accordingly, but don’t tell me when you see some girl in newspapers that’s been killed by some monster, or someone who’s been shooting kids in a school is not a monster. You know, what kind of human being are you COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

to delude yourself so badly that that’s a morally neutral condition with people? It’s an act of just deliberate stupidity. It’s like sticking your head in the sand. CBC: We were talking about Caniff and the idealized. I also read that you didn’t consider yourself a cartoonist. Steve: No, I hate that word. A cartoonist is Charlie Brown. CBC: You hate it for you or you hate the word? Steve: No, I hate it for me. I’m not a cartoonist. I’m an illustrator who draws comic books. CBC: Huh. I always defined cartoonist as an person who generally writes and draws their own material. Steve: No, no. Cartoony implies Bugs Bunny or Snoopy or somebody like that. CBC: As in cartoon film? Steve: No, just, caricatured stuff. CBC: You don’t see it as pejorative, but you see it as more of a trap of genre or something? Steve: Well, the guy that draws Dagwood is a cartoonist. CBC: And Alex Raymond was an illustrator? Steve: Yes. CBC: And Hal Foster was an illustrator? Steve: Right. He had classically trained illustrative skills to depict realism. CBC: Kirby…? Steve: I have a word for Kirby… I call him a hyper-Impressionist. Yeah, I love that. CBC: That works for you? Steve: That’s what I call Jack Kirby. He went into a realm, because he wanted to, that made his storytelling beyond literal, and therefore it had an emotional impact that wasn’t possible through straight realism. And, within the scope of realists, there’s a thousand different categories. There are guys who are stiff and boring as hell, and there are people that make realism exciting. I wanted to be a cross between Jack Kirby and Alex Raymond. CBC: Were you exposed at all to the EC Comics? Steve: No. No. CBC: Wally Wood, was not any influence…? Steve: No, not at all. CBC: Have you ever caught up with it? Steve: No. I’ve never developed an interest for anything EC at all. CBC: Not even Kurtzman? Not even MAD comics? Steve: No. Harvey Kurtzman was a caricaturist and that relates to cartooning. I have no interest in that kind of stuff

at all. I wanted to be a hybrid of Kirby and Alex Raymond. CBC: So the stuff that you like, does it all funnel into who you are? Not that it needs to be useful for your work… Does everything basically funnels into your interests? Steve: But it is useful to me, entirely based on the fact that it is useful to me. CBC: Exactly, right. But the MAD stuff is not useful to you, so you don’t consider it even when 99% of people say it’s absolute genius, you just go, “It’s not of interest to me,” and stay away from it? Steve: Yeah, and I’ve never cared about what the majority think anyway. To me there’s something wrong with majority thinking. CBC: But if 99% of people say this stuff is genius, don’t you think it’s worth considering? Steve: No. CBC: So everything has to be from your point of view? So there’s no need for critics? Steve: I don’t think about things in terms of critics, because it’s my life and my thinking and my work. Why would it be channeled by anything other than my own sensibilities or what I like or don’t like? CBC: Because of discovery and curiosity and… Steve: I’ve seen it all. It doesn’t do anything for me. What else do I need to know? CBC: Because new stuff comes out all the time. Steve: It doesn’t interest me. CBC: What doesn’t interest you? New stuff? Steve: The new stuff coming out. All these guys are nothing more than regurgitated things that I’ve seen before for the last 40 years. CBC: There are no contemporary storytellers right now who interest you? Are there any contemporary filmmakers that you go to see because of their name? When Steve [Ringgenberg] and you go out to the movies, how do you decide what movie you want to see? Does he decide? Steve: No. We both decide. “Well, do you want to see the Black Panther? Do you want to see Captain America?” CBC: So an action/adventure film or something like that. Steve: Yeah. CBC: I don’t mean to persecute you or anything, Steve. Steve: Well, the idea that someone is so closed off that they would reject or not consider the virtues of all these guys I don’t happen to care about a whole lot are worth anything to me, all it means is that I’ve looked at their work

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Space Ghost TM & © Hanna-Barbera Productions, Inc. The Herculoids TM & © The Cartoon Network, LP, LLLP. Snow White TM & © Disney Enterprises, Inc.

This page: The Dude teaches the construct of a drawing by using the Alex Toth-designed Herculoids character Igoo as an example. Above is a repro of an animation cell, and middle is Steve’s breakdown in progress, and right the artist’s finished piece with call-out instruction. Center inset is Toth’s character design for the 1960s Saturday morning cartoon show’s “rock ape.” At bottom is the host himself. The Friday spent together at The Dude’s Arizona abode (west of Phoenix) was a scorcher, with temperature’s rising to 115 ° Fahrenheit. Another art lesson involved imagery from Snow White. Below is a (mirrored) detail of Hanna-Barbera’s great adventure character, Space Ghost, from Steve’s cover for Future Quest Presents #4 [Jan. 2018].

and I have other, stronger preferences that I lean towards. CBC: Your time is valuable…? Steve: Well, I don’t think about my time being valuable. I think about my personal taste. CBC: But you’re not wasting time, too, right? Steve: Anything I look at is not a wasted moment. CBC: So what do you think of Bernie Wrightson? Steve: His early work was virtual genius. CBC: His ’70s stuff and Frankenstein? Steve: Yeah. His later work did not compare. His apex was Frankenstein and I’m pretty sure Bernie would back those sentiments. CBC: I think we all know, 99% would say that, right. Steve: Yeah. But I don’t care about the 99%. When you bring up the majority thinking, that’s a red flag for me. Do you know what that really means to me? It means whoever you’ve talked to has consented to go with the popular opinion and doesn’t really think for themselves. CBC: What I’m talking about is: I ask this question almost ever single creator is, what do you think of Harvey Kurtzman? And basically kind of what I’m going around to is what you think of Robert Crumb. And it’s not because of my litmus that I’ll go off and say they’re the two greatest geniuses, along with Jack Kirby, that comics have ever produced. This is my context, I guess. Steve: Yeah, it’s a context to help you orient yourself to other people’s work… CBC: And how we’re going to talk about a conversation and stuff like that, because there are whole other genres, for instance, of autobiographical comics, that are huge right now. I think they can be worthy of near-literature if not literature, themselves. It’s a part of the world, the comics world. But I’d love to know what Steve Rude thinks about this stuff. Steve: Well, I’m not a collector any more of comics. CBC: [Indicates a corner with some boxes] Well, that’s your entire collection, right? Steve: Yeah, that’s my collection. And the things I learn from now, I might happen to see something, say I’m up at the offices at DC, they might hand me off some free comics and I’ll look at them, and I’ll page through and very quickly discern if there’s something I can learn from them or not. If there’s not, I give them away or throw them out. They don’t have any purpose to me if they’re not useful in a way that I need things to be useful to me. But I’m perfectly aware that there are incredible creators out there, but, you know, it’s like the bands of today. When we grew up in the ’60s, ’70s, and ’80s, that’s all I need. Everything I need to look for, that I found enjoyment out of, was found in those three decades. CBC: Yeah, it’s interesting, because you appear to be a curious man by nature. We’ve been talking about curiosity. For me, it’s always being curious. Because we just went through lunch and we got through some intense conversation back and forth out of a curiosity to know each other, I think. That’s how I felt. Steve: I like exchanging ideas with people. That’s how I look at it. To me, the focus in life should be the positive and forward thinking, and I happen to get most of my enjoyment from past achievements. I mean, there’s thousands of years of past achievements compared to the paltry ten or so years that I haven’t really been a fan of comic books. So, clearly, just common sense has drawn me to a past of unequaled achievements, and things I can learn more from than anyone working contemporaneously in whatever business they’re in. There’s a lot of current illustrators… My favorites are the people that are influenced by the people of the past or I don’t have any interest in them at all. I don’t have any interest in computer art. I mean, zero. I see it. Big deal. It’s not my path. My path is this and this. Not this and

this. It’s not my thing, man. You have to know what you’re here for in life. That way you don’t waste a lot of time. But if I were to sit here and tell you that, oh, I’m so versed in everyone working in the business today and I keep up with every little thing, that’s not at all the truth. CBC: Do you go to San Diego anymore? Steve: No. No, I have very limited interest. I mean, if they invited me as a guest, I guess I would try to go. CBC: If they paid your way. Steve: Yeah. And it’s not even so much as that. The hotel would be needed. I was a guest one year and it was just wonderful, but at that point it was so massive that you feel suffocated in the environment. So instead of having fun, you’re not having fun. It’s an ordeal. If I were to go again, it would be strictly as a fan, and I’d just walk around and say hi to the people that I want to say hi to. I like meeting people all the time at shows. I love walking up to people that I haven’t met before and looking at their work, trying to find something good to say about it. That’s fun for me. I like doing that. It doesn’t mean I’m fans of their work. It means at the moment I’m seeing what’s going on at the show, I appreciate the fact that they’re forging a life for themselves in a career that they love. That’s what I like doing. I admire people like that. Everyone I meet at a show is trying very hard to be good at what they’re doing, and I really like that. CBC: And you know the power of encouragement. Steve: I know that it comes natural to me. CBC: When we worked out, you were encouraging to me. Steve: The world has enough bad things that I certainly don’t need to be one more guy who’s telling somebody what they can’t do or making them feel bad. The world does that on its own. The world needs more people to give the opposite context to what most people experience, which is

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Above: The Dude teaches that even with realistic renditions of characters, “cartooning all breaks down to the same simple process,” whether it’s Disney’s iconic Snow White or Hal Foster’s epic noble Round Table knight, Prince Valiant. Steve’s instructions were about how simple lines are the foundation on which to build an image and he proved that master illustrators, such as Foster and the Disney animators, used the same process to flesh out their characters. The Prince Valiant panel is from January 5, 1947. “That’s Earl Jon in the center,” shares Brian Kane, author of The Definitive Prince Valiant Companion [Fantagraphics]. 81

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something negative. That is a lasso you want to be here to do for people just to make them feel bad when they’re trying so hard to do something good. CBC: Like you don’t need to hear that sh*t from Archie Goodwin. [laughs] Steve: Well, who knows what kind of mood Archie was in and that kind of thing, you know? But that’s how I define the purpose in life. You do things for yourself to fulfill your purpose in being alive and being an individual, and then, if you have some sense of the purpose of that, then you can start aiding others. CBC: Have you ever mentored anybody or do you think your temperament might preclude… ? Steve: No, my temperament is pretty good about that, but I got to the point where I realized that everything I was showing people wasn’t necessarily helping them. They weren’t learning from it. They were just kind of stagnating and running on a treadmill. You were saying something earlier that I need to kind of… I don’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something about is my view the only view? CBC: For you, yeah. Steve: Well, what more is there, really? How can you be in someone else’s brain?

CBC: Well, in the sense of, like, Jack liked this person and, when I looked at on the surface, I didn’t really find it appealing, but because Jack likes it, maybe I’ll give it more of a go. Instead of being immediately dismissive, perhaps, I might give it a chance. And that can lead to the joy of discovery, that curiosity can lead you down some really interesting, totally unknown paths, right? Steve: If I see something that warrants it, I’ll give it all due consideration, but the idea that somebody can look at something and not make up their mind whether they like it or not is, to me, a fence-straddler. It’s like being an atheist. You’re not committed to one or the other. You’re playing it safe in the middle of the road, and you know what happens when you stand in the middle of the road. CBC: Watching a Sam Peckinpah movie, for instance, which, on the surface, is needlessly violent. I’m talking about The Getaway. The first time I saw it, I thought, “Oh, it’s…“ Steve: The Steve McQueen one? CBC: Yeah, and I did the same thing with Badlands, by Terry Malick, of seeing this movie of seemingly grotesque characters who had no redeeming qualities about them doing these senseless, violent things, but seeing it again, and seeing it with a different point of view, it becomes lyrical in its way. My first impression was not my lasting impression. I’ll give it a second thought. Steve: Well, that’s probably a better way to be than the way I am. I’m not saying someone has to be like me, I’m saying that’s the way I am. CBC: There’s no fairer answer than that. [laughs] Steve: Yeah. You know, the purpose of life is to get to know who you are. And I know what I won’t watch. I know what I’m going to get something from. If I happen to see a movie about somebody who’s torturing somebody, I turn it off. It’s not a requisite of life for me to finish that movie because I might learn something at the end. There are other movies that can give that to me that… CBC: You don’t have to go through that, right. Steve: Yeah. I’d rather be like the way I am right now or acting the way I am. I know enough about what I like and don’t like, and you base your judgments on that. There’s plenty of good stuff to learn from. It doesn’t take things to be extreme like that. I don’t want to see movies like the ones you’re talking about, where people are depraved and sick and crazy and dismembering people. CBC: Is there any straight, non-fantasy, reality-based story idea that you could do or you could have an interest in doing? Is there anything in the back of your mind that… I’m not saying autobiographical, but maybe along in the reality-based world? Steve: Well, the funny thing is that all of the ideas I’ve come up with are all reality-based. All I have to do is open up a newspaper and I have ten stories right there that I can extrapolate from and get an incredible story from. But, remember, it’s going to be filtered through my sense of values. CBC: So it’s reality-inspired. Steve: It’s reality-inspired, yeah. I love that. I love the idea that it actually happened and that I filter the story through my head. It has to be that way, because I’m representing myself and therefore endorsing my work when I sign my name to it. Kirby never took things to a grotesque and sadistic level with anything. He did, but it was filtered through just enough of his innate sense of not going to far with something to still get his point across. The Marquis de Sade, we all know where he came from. He was a monster. And Kirby’s stories did not shortchange or soft pedal anything when he created Desaad. They were reality, but at the same time, there was no knife through the eyes going on or axes through the head, was there? That’s my point. It’s filtered through him. My work is filtered through me. And I don’t need to see extreme examples of something that other people insist I may learn from, or I should watch it because 99%

of everyone has approved of it. Which I don’t believe in the first place. I think it’s a bunch of garbage. There’s no such thing as 99% of anyone agreeing on anything. And if they do, they should reevaluate their opinions about something. It’s like, when shows like Three’s Company was the most popular show on the air. Well, it was the most vapid piece of garbage ever done. And that’s representing 99% of the people liking that kind of stuff? I turn around and run from those opinions. In fact, they tell me everything that I don’t want to watch. So that’s my thinking about answering that question. It has a lot to do with how I’m trying to explain it to you. CBC: Can you think of an instance in Nexus where you read something in the paper that was a catalyst? Steve: Offhand, no. [laughs] CBC: As a for instance, maybe, kinda, sorta, like murder or something like that? Steve: Well, let’s just say I remember looking at something… For example, I read about this Holmes guy, H. H. Holmes. CBC: Oh, the serial killer from the 1800s? Steve: Yeah. The Chicago murderer from the World’s Fair? He had a Murder Home, this guy. I can think of ten separate stories based on what I learned from this monster. It’s easy. To me, that’s the fun part about inventing stories and I love taking it from reality because something based on reality has more substance or credence to it than something that’s strictly made up out of nowhere. But I love the idea of extrapolation. You read something that happened, and then you fictionalize it. And that’s got more power than something that’s just conjured up with no basis in an actual event. Remember, all of Kirby’s stories were in some way based on reality. And I like that. Because then, that’s why his work resonated so much with its sincerity and his trueto-life beliefs, because it was true to life. CBC: Do you mean like…? Steve: The war and the stories that he told from his 40year career, most of it was based on that one year getting frozen feet with friends… CBC: The Battle of the Bulge. Steve: And D-Day. So not having been in the Army or fighting for my country… so what? That’s what books are for. You read about history and you learn from it. When you can base all your stories on something historical that gives your story validity. So you’re starting to get the way I think now from all these answers, here? Good. I don’t randomize anything. It’s all well thought out, from having thought about things a lot. But fence-straddling answers you won’t get from me because I think that’s how wimps live their life. CBC: Is there anything, an event recently that’s sparked you? I’m not talking necessarily anything you read in the news or anything like that, but creatively that you might have… Do you get invigorated all the time? Steve: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, I do, because it takes so little to invigorate me. CBC: That’s recent…? Steve: Well, I’m always looking at something, you know, either a book, or my latest thing is going on YouTube to scan all the weird things you see in there. Some of my interests are UFO things. Is there something on the other side of the moon? Oh, I saw this incredible thing about geniuses, people with genius IQs, and I was fascinated by that because I think I have a pretty low IQ, myself. I could have thought of ten stories based on what I heard about these guys with these huge IQs. There was a 13-year-old kid in one of these segments that was just mind-blowing. That’s what I learn stuff from. Again, reality-based extrapolation. I love that. CBC: You’re doing stuff for DC now, for the present? Steve: Well, I’m going to try to. [laughs] CBC: If they get you a script. Steve: Not only that, but I tend to rub these people the wrong way because I don’t just passively lie down and just take their marching orders. That marks me as a difficult person to deal with. But I’m not difficult. They do something

to me, and I say, “Why did you just strip my work of half the content? Because of your idiotic censor laws that are so vital to your creativity and your job?” Well, it’s nothing new with creativity. It has everything to do with their fear of things out in the world that have made them become fearful and they’ve bought into. That’s how wimps live their lives, always in fear of something. Well, I’m trying to be creative. Do you guys mind? Then get the hell out of my way and let me do what I’m good at. CBC: Why hire creative minds if you don’t want them to be creative… Steve: What a thought, huh? [The chat later shifts from the studio to the living room.] Steve: The last thing you want to do in an interview is to state irresponsible things that have no context and you have to explain properly, because people make very quick snap judgments about things when they read interviews. “Oh, Steve Rude hates Ditko. Steve Rude hates Harvey Kurtzman.” No, not at all. And the only people who want to believe that garbage are people who want to close their minds on everything. If you think I’m a closed-minded person, raise your hand. You know what I mean? We live in a snap judgment culture the likes of which I’ve never seen before. CBC: What, America or…? Steve: I don’t know about…The rest of the world’s a hopeless mess. America has got more things going for it than other countries. So you have to go about these things responsibly. You don’t want to make people feel bad, because that’s not what I want to do with life. [Leafs through a copy of CBC #17, indicates Flo Steinberg memoriam] I saw this article, and I thought, “What happened? Did she die?” Was this farewell? And then I read the first paragraph, and there was nothing that said she died. There was no birth date and no death date. When I read the last part of that, there wasn’t anything there. I was confused. CBC: Whoops… context. Steve: Yeah. Everything I say has to have a constructive context to it. Otherwise you’re just making somebody feel bad. But I didn’t know that she died. I didn’t actually know until way later on, when I read “In Memoriam.” But people don’t always go in the order of everything, do they? CBC: No. Steve: [Indicates notation atop the CBC editorial page] Way up there? Oh, boy, that’s the last thing we need. But I know you had a thing for this girl and nobody could blame anybody. She had to be one of the nicest girls you could ever want to meet in life. I never met her, but I feel like I

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Previous and this page: The Dude rendered Jack Kirby’s One Man Army Corps in a team-up with Kal-El in Adventures of Superman #17 [Nov. 2014]. A few years prior, Steve, just for fun, created an OMAC model sheet, from which a figure is detailed here. At top is the opening splash panel. Page 85: One of Steve illustrations for an instructional project pitched on Kickstarter. Page 86: The Dude’s cover painting for Nexus: The Wages of Sin #1 [Mar. 1995]. Page 87: The Nexus Archives Vol. 3 cover painting by Steve. Page 88: At top is Jack Kirby’s cover for Mister Miracle #1 [Mar.–Apr. 1971]. Page 89: For the back cover of The Jack Kirby Collector #35 [July 2002], Steve produced this exquisite pastel recreation of a cover we’ll always associate with this Kirby aficionado because, of course, because of Scott ’s “They’re in for a rude shock” exclamation!

This page: At top is The Dude with his Supergirl painting, created just to pass the time while awaiting scripts from DC. Middle row from left is easel where Steve produces his oil paintings, his animation table, and his relatively sparse comic book collection. Bottom row is Steve’s beagle-dachshund mix, Chloe, and the recliner in his studio on which rests a Harry Anderson original painting. Missing from this montage is a photo of his pastels station, which contains every conceivable shade of color. 84

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know her. Do you really have to meet somebody to know how good they are inside? Positive everything. Wanted nothing from the world but for people to see her bright smile to make them feel as good as she felt inside. And now she’s gone. Now she’s joined the ranks of a million people before her. According to the fortune teller who told me I would meet Jaynelle, I will live to 81, and that’s plenty. I’m consigned to whatever place after this. Consider yourself very lucky that you got a glimpse of that because there’s no question in my mind that’s going to happen. We return to a state of energy, which is an internal thing. This is a transient thing. This is a physical phenomenon, and we’re subject to all of the possibilities that a physical world can bring about: immense pain, immense pleasure, all the things that a human being is meant to experience. And you have a very, you have an ironclad contract that is finite. But what do people do with their time here in conjecturing about the hereafter? Well, they fight about it. They’ve broken themselves into a thousand factions in the name of religion, all claiming to know the truth. Well, that’s a lot of truth, isn’t it? Well, that’s one thing that I don’t really care about. I don’t care about the fact that there’s a million religions. That’s what people do while they’re here. They fight and they argue about everything. If it’s not getting you what you want out of it… What’s the point of it? Do you like to argue with people? A lot of people do. They like to spend their entire life debating someone else when, to find the answer that they seem to be so desperately looking for, like the song says, to know that, you only have to die. Well, it’s going to come about quickly enough. Why don’t you just stop fighting about it and do something with it? Do something with your time. So I’m resentful about people who lie to themselves, who delude themselves. It’s one and the same to me. You know what I mean by that, don’t you? And that’s the equivalent of fear, that all relates back to fear. “I’m afraid to tell you what I really feel because someone’s going to try to hurt me.” Well, what a shame, that you’re so afraid of saying to another person how you genuinely feel inside that you’re afraid that they’re going to hurt you? That’s a sick human quality that I have no time for at all. And the idea that it’s so one-sided in things that you are afraid of death to tell me what you feel inside. You can’t get anywhere unless, at some point, one, knowing what you are inside, and two, you’re less than fearful about telling people your honest feelings about things. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

CBC: It’s vulnerability sometimes, right? It’s putting yourself at risk, and having been hurt a number of times, to worry that you’re going to get hurt again. A betrayal of trust… Steve: Well, the answer to that is of course you’re going to get hurt again. This is the mortal world. That’s what takes place down here. So if you decide you’re going to spend the rest of your life being afraid because some dipsh*t put the fear in you, well, you don’t have any sympathy for me at all. You’ve decided to be a victim, to be afraid. You can’t learn anything when you’re afraid? You can’t experience things. CBC: There are a lot of people who don’t know any different, Steve. They’re crushed. A huge number of people, millions of people in this world are under the oppression of poverty and hunger. Obviously, it’s all-consuming because it’s survival at stake. It’s about getting food, taking care of your children. It’s about staying away from the oppressive powers, whatever it is. Don’t you think sometimes to live without fear can be a luxury? Steve: To live without fear can be a luxury? Well, sure, it is. Why wouldn’t it be? CBC: Well, a luxury, by definition, is not common. I mean, put the situation in the extreme. When humans are under duress, and when Jack is in the Battle of the Bulge, the stuff that he witnessed (and the stuff he perhaps could have perpetrated, as well), the savagery that he must have seen that was the catalyst for so much story that came out of him, if not Darkseid and all of Apokolips, Orion and the good side. Right? I mean, I hope I’m not rambling here. That he was an optimist at the same time as knowing full well the depths of human depravity. Steve: Anyone who ever knew Jack will tell you that he loved being around people. CBC: He loved people, and he loved young people, and he was remarkably unprejudiced for the time, it seemed to me. Steve: He was all those things. That’s why he was one of my great role models in life. And he held up perfectly under all of it. With every interview he ever had, all the thousands of probing questions. I heard something one time. You can take anybody and turn them into a monster if you want. CBC: What do you mean? You can portray anybody as a monster? Steve: Yeah. Anybody. CBC: Whether it’s the truth or not? 85

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Steve: Yeah. And that tells you the agenda of a very sick mind, someone who wants… I call them destroyers. Those kind of people are destroyers. They want to do anything they can to lower someone else and somehow the idea that they elevate themselves. That’s a sick mind. CBC: That’s a very Jack Kirby point of view. He might have even used that very same phrase, there, in print and in countless interviews. He was alluding to the exploiters, the people who use… Steve: Oh, absolutely. He knew reality for what it was. And that’s my point about giving you a reference other than somebody who stands in the middle of everything and doesn’t take a stand on anything. And remember what Kirby was able to do with it. He channeled everything that he saw into something that no one else could do. His stories had a tone to them, and a truth to them, that had no sense of “made during the time of” to them. It was a universal thing that could be read at any point, probably, throughout time, and seem relevant and contemporary. He dealt in universal things. That’s why I think he’s going to last forever. CBC: It’s nice to have a touchstone with Jack. I guess it has as much meaning for you as it has for me. Steve: Well, again, that’s my point about half of what I’m trying to get through here is what it might matter to the man in the moon, I mean, is irrelevant. It’s as relevant to me as the people that made the dumbest TV shows on Earth most popular. CBC: The 99%. Steve: Yeah. That doesn’t speak well of most people, though, to rate the most vacuous show on the earth is the number one show people watch, it doesn’t have to reflect anything to do with how I think about life. And can you believe those reports in the first place? It’s almost as if it was written by the guy’s mother or a press agent for that TV show. But the shows that I liked most on TV were shows that were considered failures. Well, okay, well, they affected me my whole life. Those other shows that 99% of the population watched and supposedly loved, did nothing for me. So I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean other than you decide things for your-

self. Everyone has to decide these things for themselves. You don’t have to reflect a thousand different opinions. That would make you basically into someone who was very confused in life and doesn’t want to say how they feel. And that again goes back to the things that kind of is the root of everything we’re talking about here, people that are afraid of everything. We’ve already made it clear that that’s no way to live a life, because it’s not a life. Everyone has a different definition of that. I have mine. What does it matter what someone else thinks? It doesn’t. People will say it should. Well, what Baron once said on a radio show a long time ago, “Yeah, and you should be the eleven or twelve things that are dear to my heart, too.” And that again goes back to the root of what we’re talking about. Well, you should care about this. You should care about the starving, how women are suppressed, and there’s all these victims, and the blacks don’t have rights, and God knows what else they conjure up because they’re in love with being repressed, and thinking about what they can’t do in life. They blame someone else for their problems. There’s no way out of that. I’m not going to think like that. [After reviewing The Dude’s YouTube interests and watching a portion of the kung fu movie, The Big Boss, starring Bruce Lee, the conversation continues back in the studio, as Steve begins an art lesson.] Steve: I want to show you the difference between what my opinion about great art versus people that don’t know what the hell they’re doing. Right. [Indicates the cover painting, Flowers by Patricia Watwood, Fine Art Connoisseur magazine, Vol. 14, #6, Nov.–Dec. 2017] There’s this, and there’s this [indicates Frank Frazetta’s painting, The Destroyer]. This is very involved, but you have a focus point there. It’s all very deliberate. It’s also extremely difficult to pull off because any other guy would have done this thing in massive detail, everything would have been in the light, and it would have reduced the effectiveness by two-thirds. If you had painted it like this [Watwood’s painting], where everything is in focus. Here’s another way to look at it. [Indicates pale woman figure in Frazetta painting The Mood Maid] Squint. Squint down to this. You see a couple things around here. You see this, and you see this light against the dark. You have to see it because it’s light against dark. It’s not light against light, or dark against dark. It’s light against dark, and it’s selectively lighter on dark. This thing, everything is in focus, everything is detailed out, and it’s, it doesn’t have any near the impact that something like this has. Because I learned from fine artists, from chiaroscuro artists, from people that reveal things by way of light onto a dark background. Not always, because everything is different. The subject matter tells you where it should go. Some things are in dark against light. There’s dark against light. This is light against dark. The point is, it’s really easy to see it. Your eye doesn’t go a hundred different places. It goes in one place, and then it circles around looking for other things that are of interest. This kind of art right here shows everything at once. Everything is equally rendered, for the most part. If you look at this thing, especially if you squint down, you can barely see the visible lights within the dark. There’s also no color. It’s totally monochromatic. So if you use some orange on a gray background, it really stands out much more than something like this, where everything stands out. It’s about selective impact, and where to guide your eye to get it. More light against dark, but it’s only a very selective light against dark. Against light; light against dark. The whole figure isn’t lit up. It’s selective. Very selective. So your mind has to work harder. Actually, it has to work less, but there’s intellect behind this kind of thinking here that makes it much more powerful based on what is not accentuated. Only the parts he wants you to see are accentuated. CBC: Right. Frazetta commands the eye. Steve: His earlier works didn’t have that same kind of a look to them, and that’s why he went back and fixed a lot of them over the years. [Indicates Frazetta painting The Mammoth.] This has unbelievable impact. This is like a Kirby 3-D kind of a thing going on here. The sense of space going deep into a perspective is scary. It’s just literally beyond belief how good he is at something: light against dark, dark against light. He knew the secrets, and when he talks about other artists who are copying him (which is everybody under the sun) very few of them understand this. They see it but they don’t compile it in the right way. They don’t assimilate it in the right way, like Frazetta did. So they think they’re outdoing him by putting in more detail. [Indicates Watwood painting] Like this artist did. This person, probably a girl. And it’s ass-backwards. Most people don’t understand that. No matter how many times they’re shown it, they just don’t get it. [Places his sketchbook on drawing table] So this is my new sketchbook. It’s already falling apart, because of the cheap binding. But I just started it. CBC: Wow. Steve: [Indicates Supergirl painting thumbnail] Here’s my little thumbnail,

one of my first ones. CBC: Wow, and everything’s done this size. And then you reduced it, wow. Steve: It’s the same. And then I write little notes to myself when I’m trying to figure things out, because at this point I have to be my own teacher. So I’m still copying the greats. CBC: [Points to William Shatner email pasted into sketchbook] What’s this? Steve: That’s the note Captain Kirk sent me. I sent him a picture of his blowhard. CBC: Really? [laughs] Isn’t that beautiful. He’s a dog owner? Steve: Well, he loves his Dobermans, yeah. [Points to Jonny Questlike alien drawings] This is typical of me. Nexus aliens compared to fine art studies of human figures. Thumbnails. Practice, practice, practice, practice. CBC: Do you have the discipline to sit down every morning or is it as the spirit moves you? Do you have a set time of day that you do it? Steve: No. And it’s not discipline. People always mistake it for discipline. It has nothing to do with it. They think it’s me forcing myself to come up here and do my duty. It’s nothing to do with that. I do it because it’s fun. Figure studies. You can never do enough of these right here. Kirby. CBC: J.K. Look at that. Steve: This is where my cover for Action Comics #1000 came about, the one [painting] you saw downstairs. I was going through a lot of clichéd ideas and eventually settled on one. And what is it, Man of Steel, I had a building collapsing, and I had to put stuff in there. And I’ve never seen a toilet or a kitchen sink in a bunch of rubble, so I put it in. So I drew my own toilet downstairs. CBC: Here’s a study of a toilet. Steve: And this is practice right here. This is a great artist. I’m trying to learn what he learned by breaking it down to something that’s going to be understood. CBC: “Exposing weakness.” Steve: Is that what it says? Oh, yeah. Not hiding behind your flaws. [Points to dog drawing] This blowhard right there. That’s practicing for Captain Kirk’s blowhard picture. Oh, that’s some cool thing that I saw. And I liked it, so I put it in the sketchbook. [Flips through sketchbook] More studies. Nobody ever does this stuff, this pen-&-ink stuff, so I try to learn it, because no one else does. So that’s what I do… because it’s fun. CBC: You started this sketchbook on April 4? When is the last time you touched this? Steve: Probably today. Yeah, I think so. I did this today, this morning. I seem to do a lot of stuff in the morning. Let’s see. Here we go. Let’s do some inking experiments here. [Selects circa 1920s photo of a woman] Okay, this girl’s face down here. I’ll make a Xerox of it. See my new colored machine? I’m more than excited about it. [Photocopies picture and starts scissoring out the woman’s face] Let’s be smart about this, here. We don’t need him. So we’re going to quickly draw this head in right here. So I think this is this guy’s wife, here, who was a semi-famous artist. [Commences penciling a copy of the photo] See her eye peeking out just a little bit there? Most comic people make eyes way too big. Okay, and now we’re going to bring out the ink and the brush. CBC: That’s how you dab it? Steve: Brush ink and pen ink. Pen ink is thinner. Now we have to stir it up. Mr. Campin, my pen-&-ink teacher, always said, “Art is hard enough without your tools fighting you.” So you do what you need to do to make the process of actually painting easier. You control it. If not, it’s controlling you. You don’t want that. This helps spread the ink out a little bit. Most of this ink is ammonia-based. [Squirts Windex into the ink bottle.] CBC: Just a little in there? Steve: Yeah, so I just spray it in there, and stir it up a little more, and we should be ready to go here. It’s still really thick, and that’s what we use for the brush ink. There’s a lot of sediment on there, actually. Gotta get rid of that. So let’s break out, here. Now, here’s the pen nib. This is the kind of brush, a two or three Winsor-Newton that everyone else uses in the business. I call these people wimps. Everyone, and I mean everyone, is brainwashed into thinking that this is the size you use, because that’s what they’ve been told. CBC: Winsor-Newton two? Steve: Yeah. God forbid they actually try to buck tradition and go beyond that. Here’s the size that I use. It’s a damned eight. All the lines that they get with their puny little twos and threes I get with an eight. God forbid they actually step outside, into the danger zone. And because it contains a lot COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

more ink, you can get it done a lot faster. CBC: That’s great. [Steve proceeds to provide commentary about his specific procedure while drawing, and then selects Frazetta painting, Catwalk, and pencils a quick replica for Ye Ed to ink.] Steve: Here, I’ll move out of the way. You go ahead. But you have to know where these highlights are going. You have to understand what they’re telling you, form-wise. Otherwise, you’re just going to be shooting in the dark. You’re going to be doing what I was doing before I went back to school. It’s guesswork. So all these wimpy guys out there with their triple zero brushes and all this nonsense, that think you need that, well, sorry, Charlie, but you don’t. Going wild with the Frazetta principle, the eye fills in, but isn’t there, and that’s part of the magic of knowing how, of being an artist. Do you want to give this a try with the big brush? CBC: Me? I’ve never been able to command a brush at all. Steve: What about a pen? [Jon nods] This is the kind of vintage pen I use. This is a vintage pen right here, from the 1900s… 1910, I think it is. With a lot of guys in comics, they’ll draw really skinny bottom areas in girls. Girls are not guys, people. CBC: Hips don’t lie. Steve: Because they’re ill-trained, they think that their poor anatomy in having no difference between male and female anatomy is permissible when it’s not. This kills me to have to say this kind of stuff. Of course, it needs saying, so that’s why I say it. [Indicates Catwalk] I’ve looked at this painting a thousand times — a thousand times — and I’ve never once noticed until now how that hand is just a shape. You don’t need any fingers on there, guys. Okay, you ready? Your mission, if you choose to accept it… [Indicates pen nib.] Dip it in here. This is actually a nib that Alex Raymond used to use, the very same kind. So, looking at this, do your best. Good luck. Now, you’ve got to get that pen going first. Do whatever you can. Dip it in the water until you get it really, really loosened up or whatever you need to do to get it working. CBC: So sometimes you have to put it in the water? 87

You can get the entire personality of somebody down in just very, very simple lines. CBC: You know, I was looking at your sketchbooks and noted you draw more contemporary Disney material. You’ve been studying the Disney animators for a long time, right? Is it a puzzle for you? Steve: Well, it’s something I like to work at so I can get better at it. CBC: And are they the best? Steve: The Disney guys are the best. And there’s a famous quote about the Disney guys: Even when they were already the best, they still worked harder than anyone else to be better than what they were. CBC: What’s the most perfect Disney film for you? Steve: Well, I loved Little Mermaid and I loved Snow White. CBC: With Little Mermaid, what’s the attraction? Steve: Well, I would say just watch it and see for yourself if it affects you the way it did me. All it means is that the characters are alive. They’re merely line drawings, but they’re alive. CBC: Now, with your Nexus cartoon, are you just doing it cel by cel or sketch by sketch? Steve: Yeah, it’s done the old-fashioned way. I don’t know quite what’s going to happen in production when it gets going, but everything will be traditionally done, all be hand-drawn. It’ll be scanned into the computer where it’ll be colored. It’ll be timed in a computer, all that stuff that makes the stuff easier. CBC: Are you going to do the in-between digitally? Steve: I don’t think so… well, if somebody wants to go that route, fine. It doesn’t matter how you get there, but it’s got to reflect the old look or it’s not Nexus. It’s something else. And if someone other than me was doing it, it would be something else. So that’s how you break down the most complex things in the world. And it’s all the same, Jon. There’s no difference between Snow White, this Rock Ape Iggo, or Ziggy, the little round guy. CBC: That’s beautiful. Steve: Everything is the same. It can be broken down to very basic shapes. Everything. If you look at Roy Crane, it’s easier to break down his stuff, but it’s a lot more to draw because you have to be unerringly accurate. I’ll show you. [Lays down Captain Easy volume on carpet and places it beside Alex Raymond figure.] Look at the difference here between, let’s see, okay, [points to Raymond figure] that illustration, that’s an illustration. [Points to Captain Easy] This is far more resembling cartoony work, but everything looks natural. Everything also looks alive. This looks as natural and alive as this does. It just has one-tenth the detail. CBC: And I love Roy Crane’s storytelling. Steve: And his girls were gorgeous, and that’s why I don’t care for Caniff that much, because his women were ugly as hell. [Indicates Captain Easy] All it has to do is move you, and no one else. CBC: Right. That was the great thing about communicating with Alex [Toth]. He could reminisce about the feeling of seeing this stuff when he was eight or nine years old, and 50 or 60 years later still retain that same enthusiasm for it, and that was absolutely infectious. And you have that enthusiasm, too, because you like it, you enjoy it. Steve: Everything should beget something else. That’s the way it should work. That way, you don’t have to learn it from nothing. Why have a thousand generations that came before you if you can’t learn anything from what they left behind. CBC: Context, right? Steve: Yeah. I can break this figure down to #18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Steve: Yeah, to get it to work. Just dip it. And then dip it in there, because the stuff has got to get flowing so it actually comes off the pen. And it can be tricky sometimes. These kind of things can take a while. Try this pen nib instead. They don’t make them like they used to. CBC: Do you ink left to right or…? Steve: You’re on your own, buddy. You’ll record it for posterity. You’re so smart about these things. [Jon begins inking Steve’s pencils replicating Frazetta’s Catwalk figure.] There’s no right or wrong, and there’s no failure here at all, because that doesn’t exist here. There’s only try. That’s all there is… is try. CBC: So when’d you first start using a brush? Did you use the pen first? Steve: I used both. [Looking at Jon’s inking] Well, this isn’t bad at all. You did a good job. CBC: Thank you. Steve: And with this, I’m going to show you the very simple secret of all drawing, no matter what it’s about, and I’m going to start with two things. I’m just going to grab this photocopy of a cel from an old Hanna-Barbera cartoon and then I’m going to use Snow White. If you had to break this down into it’s simplest form, you know what you would do? CBC: What would I do? I would block out the main forms and… Steve: Yeah, your perceptions are good. Well, here’s what I would do to break this down. [Makes simple curves indicating the posture of figures being replicated.] That’s how we start. See, I want to dig into a truth even more simple than a form of blocking. And then from here, I’m going to continue that thinking throughout the entire process. CBC: Everything is a complement to the initial line drawn…? Steve: That’s exactly right. See, this is nothing more than your basic shape right here. CBC: Did you have a moment in your life where all of a sudden you “got” design or do you think it was naturally inside you? Steve: Well, it’s only natural based on the fact that when I looked at the stuff, I wanted to be able to do it. I said, “There’s something here that I really want to learn, and it’s the art of simplicity.” CBC: But then you had to create something original, right? Steve: No, I just had to learn from what these guys were teaching me, and from there I could go any direction I wanted. I could have stayed copying people my whole life, just use tracing paper. But this is by hand and that develops coordination. And then, if you need to embellish something beyond what is already there, well, and everything it is, it’s not just this. You turn that into a foot. And there’s a lot of work that goes into this stuff. It’s not as easy as it looks. There’s a lot to figure out. But it’s still a lot simpler than the Japanese stuff. It’s actually a lot thicker than this. Snow White. CBC: What about the Japanese stuff? Steve: They have multiple shadows all over the figures and it’s just ridiculous. So if we’re looking at, say, the Snow White right here, I would do this. And these are all going to be basic shapes, but they’re all going to be modified basic shapes once I get them in place. And I wanted to figure out why Toth and the people who he learned from could be so good with stuff and I just traced it back to the great animators of the world because they all used the same principles of stripping it down to the essence. And none of the personality is lost. CBC: Snow White? Steve: Yeah. She’s completely real. She’s completely realized without a thousand different things on her like people think you have to do.

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up here. And none of those guys sat in a trenches in France and froze their feet off. That doesn’t have anything to do with his drawing, but it has a lot to do with his life. His life informed all of his stories and his stories were told by drawings. See, this kind of thinking isn’t going to come to the average human being unless they dig for it. But it’s available to everyone. How bad do you want it? I wanted it real bad. I was very frustrated over it. I needed to figure out something I just didn’t understand. What I don’t understand is painful. Even with all these books of “how to,” that I studied harder than anyone I know, I wasn’t going fast enough. CBC: But the epiphanies came after coming to California? Steve: They began to rush out during my time in L.A., because I was ready to hear the answers. CBC: You have to be ready. Steve: So the funny thing is, just because I know what I know, and I’m demonstrating to you what I know in front of you, it’s never easy. It’s not easy. It never is easy. It’s always hard. The reason behind all of this study is to make the hard easier somehow. But it’s never easy, especially the illustrations. That’s the why of wanting to learn, because if you could be an illustrator… you would have the magic touch, and you would have reached the ultimate peak. [Indicates Harry Anderson painting] He knew everything. And I wanted to be like that, too, because of him. CBC: When did you discover him? Steve: A long time ago, by accident. I discovered Harry by accident, and I was going through a burnout with my work. It was at first a big surprise because the editor always yelled at everyone, and I realized I actually had to quit screwing around and just have actual business quarters so I could maintain my detachment from work and non-work. But play is my work. So I decided, well, what am I going to do? Well, how about the library? I’ll go to the library. So 5:00 o’clock came along, a rooster crowed, and I got out of there right at 5:00 o’clock, just like I was supposed to, like a real person with a real job. And there was a library, and I said, “Hey, bring me these old Ladies Home Journals. Can I see those? I want to see those.” And I started looking through them, and I discovered a whole world of illustrators that I had never heard of. I would be dripping sweat on my pages. I remember that very clearly. And I had a fan going, obviously… I don’t know how you get through this stuff. There’s no answer except you just do. CBC: “You just do.” Steve: Yeah, what’s the alternative? Are you going to crawl off in a corner with heat stroke and die? Well, that’s an option. You can always do that if you want. But if you have good water, you have good drawings, you have good company, that’s saying a lot. So this is my life, Jon. Everything’s right here. All my earthly accumulations that will someday return to dust. But I used them well while I was here. While I was here, I used them for exactly what I needed them for. CBC: Is it a continuing epic or do you have a new epic inside you? Steve: Well, the process is ongoing until you’re dead or when physical limits take over. But it’s hard to go over when you’re not able to do it. CBC: Is it a process, or do you want to do something for posterity? Steve: Well, posterity’s huge, here. Everything you do, everything you do is for posterity. Harry never thought that painting would end up in my hands, but — surprise! — it did. CBC: And that was done as a commercial illustration. Steve: That’s all stuff for posterity. Posterity’s a huge thing. Huge. Because it means that, even though you die, your work doesn’t. And that’s what it’s meant to be. It goes on forever. Five hundreds years from now, imagine somebody open up a New Gods for the first time, a New Gods #1 or something. They’d say, “What the hell is this?” This is like somebody discovering Galileo, or da Vinci, or something, or some Roman emperor, Socrates, or Plato or something. Did they live on? You tell me? We wouldn’t be talking about them if they didn’t. CBC: Yeah, any of those who discover those greats for the first time. And there are more greats to be discovered. Steve: Yeah. The comment you made earlier about collecting, that you have to find it all, or something. Well, there’s no such thing as having it all. And thank God there’s no such thing. And that’s around the next corner, maybe the biggest surprise yet to come. It’s like when I met Jaynelle. That whole story was a fairy tale, how I met her. But I also put myself in the middle of road so I couldn’t ignore it… Okay, that’s enough, right. Let’s go downstairs and relax. You now have one thing that’s irreplaceable: you have a day in the life, and no one’s ever done that one before.

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something Crane-like. If you want to see me do it, I will just to show you it all breaks down to the same thing. So what we’ve found here is a universality of what art, what good drawing reduces to in its ultimate reduction, it’s simplest form. So when you understand simple, you can do complex a lot easier than people that don’t understand simple. CBC: Because you’re building upon something. Steve: You’re building upon something, something extremely simple. [Looking through Captain Easy volume] Let’s find one of his gorgeous girls here. He’s always got a gorgeous girl showing up somewhere, and they’re always gorgeous. CBC: What’s this…? 1930, ’31. Steve: Yeah, they’re just the simplest of outlines. Well, we could take her and do the same thing that Crane has done. And the hell of it is, these girls, like the Little Mermaid or Snow White, they’re a version like this. They’re this kind of version, but it’s all there. Well, how is that possible? How is that possible to be alive and have so few lines on it. That’s the answer that I wanted to find out from my work. And I’m still working at it, because it’s a lifetime of trying, and trying, and trying. CBC: Studying and studying. Steve: Yeah. It’s never easy. It’s never simple. And so it’s a secret to be discovered, and I wanted it. I wanted it really bad, really bad. CBC: It’s a secret in plain sight. Steve: Yeah, that’s a great way to put it, actually. A great way to put it. CBC: I just thought Buz Sawyer was the cat’s pajamas when I was a kid. Just seeing how awesome was his use of Zip-A-Tone and Craftint and all that. I loved that. And there was a softness yet an urgency to the linework. Speaking about the daily strips of the Wash Tubbs stuff, too, it’s like you really sense, it’s very comedic, and yet you really sense they’re in danger. Steve: Yeah. That’s another secret. How is that possible? CBC: Exactly. It’s comedic, it’s slapstick, and yet you really think, “Oh my God, they’re in danger!” Steve: And they’re just simple lines. How is that possible? So if we look at Hal Foster… [Indicates a Prince Valiant panel] I’m going to have to prove to you (because I have to prove everything) that we can reduce a detailed illustration down to the barest element and build from that. I’m going to take this figure and do this version of it, and it’s going to look as alive as anything with this amount or that amount of detail. So that’s a challenge for me. So let’s go over here and try it. We’re going to do a “Roy Crane Prince Valiant” here. CBC: A Roy-Crane-ization. Steve: Let’s see if this will hold up, here. Inking is nothing more than a pen line versus a pencil line or a brush line versus a pencil line. [Begins reductive sketch of Prince Valiant] We’ll keep his face kind of anonymous. [laughs] I’m already adding too much. I don’t even need to add that much, but I can’t do anything else. [Finishes sketch.] That’s my Roy Crane version of Hal Foster… Anyway, the point is that Snow White, Wash Tubbs, Little Mermaid, or Prince Valiant, they’re all the same… they’re all the same. But how far do you want to carry it? Does this or that detail need to come in? If you’re an illustrator, yeah, you probably want to, that’s part of what makes the job fun for you. CBC: Addition or subtraction. Steve: Yeah, this is what Hal Foster wanted. He wanted total realism. He wanted to make it so real… and yet, the authenticity, the emotional authenticity is identical with Roy Crane’s work, and that’s the same with Snow White and Little Mermaid (which I happen to like a lot). We all know when movies fail, Jon. They fail for basically the same reason: you don’t connect emotionally with the damned story, with the characters. In Snow White, half the grown men in the audience were crying when it premiered. Well, that’s telling you something about… CBC: The authenticity of the emotion there…? Steve: Yeah. So this is the secret, right here. But when you show a person who’s not ready to understand it, they won’t be able to do it. You have to cleave through a thousand pounds, layers of garbage to understand this and, if you don’t understand it, you can’t draw it. CBC: You can mimic it. Steve: Yeah, you can mimic it, just like people mimic Kirby all the time in John Morrow’s magazine [The Jack Kirby Collector]. “Kirby: the Genre.” They’re all just doing surface mannerisms, but they’re not. CBC: Kirby as an affliction. [laughs] Steve: Yeah. But that explains a lot of the learning process, and how things are learned. You first learn by copying the outside, the exterior, but you can’t copy the thinking, and that’s why Jack was Jack Kirby. It was all

DC: HELLO, GOODBYE... After 20 years of conspicuous no-contact, I wasn’t really expecting a call from DC that March morning back in 2016. After hearing the usual recital of “What have you been doing all this time?” I was anxious to hear what prompted a call after this extended no-contact period. It was head honcho Dan Didio, himself, who first reinstated contact with my humble self, as well as a young junior editor go-getter named Brittany Holzherr. Apparently, DC wanted to involve me in their recent series of old Hanna-Barbera characters, such as Jonny Quest, along with the Kirby-inspired 12-issue The Kamandi Challenge series featuring a character Dan D. had been wanting to resurrect. Through the always pleasant and soft-spoken Brittany (except when she’s managing the DC softball team), and in time, an offer came regarding Supergirl from the equally devoted and delightful Jessica Chen, yet more work would come my way. Everything started out well, as the two ideologies of independent artist and Big Company seemed to merge contentedly for once. Shortly, however, came a distant echo of things I thought lost past when that prescient, internal alarm began sounding once again, or, as someone raised on ’60s TV shows might put it, a rather prominent signpost up ahead. Instead of Rod Serling asking for a lift, it was an steady gaggle of lawyers standing near a road block holding a “do not pass” sign. Well, it was fun while it lasted, folks. When one’s job involves drawing super-beings showing up just in time to alter the outcome of an innocent’s certain demise, as they attempt to award the good guys and punish the rotten ones, one can’t help but hopefully accumulate a tiny sense of these character’s ennobling behavior within ourselves over time. Some fans even learn to channel the moral lessons from comic books into sharply-defined life principals. Now there’s something you hardly see anymore. Kind of like the uplifting lyrics in that Louis Armstrong “What a Wonderful World” song that nobody remembers. Going from “welcome back” to becoming Number One on DC’s Troublemaker List, inevitably came back just as it did in 1989’s World’s Finest series when I insisted on not only drawing the original Superman, the one invented by his own creators, but also sought to include such foul transgressions as including the likenesses of two actors currently appearing in the hit Batman movie or putting a “Wham-O” sign on a kid’s toy bat-plane. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

I know… heavy stuff suitable for hand-slapping or possible incarceration. This is America, right? And weren’t comic books supposed to fun at one time? Or to drag this out further, as one might imagine a page from DC’s corporate handbook reading: “Any artist or writer formerly used to relying on their natural and rightful good taste in regards to their once-unrestricted imaginations, are heretofore forbidden to use anything we deem copyright infringeable, including all items whose notarized permission has not been legally obtained from their rightful owners. This would include, but not limited to, any indication of a universally recognized ‘McD’ on Luthor’s coffee cup, graphic references to our exclusive and proprietary Gucci Wonder Woman double-tread sneakers or Curling Iron line, or, in particular, displaying the recently copyrighted navel tattoo of a celebrated member of the WWF, and must therefore be excised post haste.” Or something like that. Darn. If I’d only spotted the little “C” on my neighbor’s John Deere tree-trimmer, or a published photo of one of my vintage relatives, I could’ve save myself some serious drawing time. Since lawyers, so far as I know, don’t yet have the ability to draw a proper super-hero, that leaves the artist still in charge of actually drawing the pages. Assuming that doesn’t change in the next installment of the handbook, I wonder: could the people that issue these dictates actually be content trying to draw and create under their own self-issued corporate straight-jackets? Or maybe I’ll just have to be content by going back to a time long, long ago, when the great minds of our industry inspired a 10-year-old Wisconsinite to devote his life learning how to draw those intrepid pre-P.C. action heroes, when men were men and men still brought women their favorite hand-picked daffodils. As for me and my reward during my brief span working for the often very pleasant and accommodating staff at DC Comics: goodbye to a steady influx of untold wealth and long-awaited “The Dude returns!” announcement on Bleeding Cool, and “hello, heroes of old,” where justice and common sense will eventually, maybe, hopefully, someday prevail again. And while we’re at it, don’t forget to include those page numbers on your books. —S TEVE RUDE Artist and “troublemaker” June 30, 2018 91

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The Ultimate Look at a Bronze Age Legend! From a seminal turn on Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes and creating the lost world of the Warlord, to his work on Green Arrow—first relaunching the Green Lantern/ Green Arrow series with DENNY O’NEIL, and later redefining the character in Green Arrow: The Longbow Hunters—MIKE GRELL made an indelible mark at DC Comics in the 1970s and ’80s. But his greatest contribution to the comics industry was in pioneering creator-owned properties like Jon Sable, Starslayer, and Shaman’s Tears. Grell even tried his hand at legendary literary characters like Tarzan and James Bond, adding to his remarkable tenure in comics. This career-spanning tribute to the master storyteller is told in Grell’s own words, full of candor, optimism, and humor. Lending insights are colleagues PAUL LEVITZ, DAN JURGENS, DENNY O’NEIL, MIKE GOLD, and MARK RYAN. Full of illustrations from every facet of his long career, with a Foreword by CHAD HARDIN, it also includes a checklist of his work and an examination of “the Mike Grell method.” It is a fitting tribute to the artist, writer, and storyteller who has made the most of every opportunity set before him, living up to his own mantra, “Life is Drawing Without an Eraser.” By DEWEY CASSELL, with JEFF MESSER.

(160-page FULL-COLOR trade paperback) $27.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-088-5 • (Digital Edition) $12.95 (176-page LIMITED EDITION HARDCOVER) $37.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-087-8 • NOW SHIPPING! (This LIMITED HARDCOVER EDITION is limited to 1000 COPIES, and includes 16 EXTRA FULL-COLOR PAGES not in the Softcover Edition.)

Edited by Back Issue’s

MICHAEL EURY! RETROFAN #1 cover-features an all-new interview with TV’s Incredible Hulk, LOU FERRIGNO, and introduces a quartet of columns by our regular celebrity columnists: MARTIN PASKO’s Pesky Perspective (this issue: The Phantom in Hollywood), ANDY MANGELS’ Retro Saturday Mornings (Filmation’s Star Trek cartoon), ERNEST FARINO’s Retro Fantasmagoria (How I Met the Wolf Man—Lon Chaney, Jr.), and The Oddball World of SCOTT SHAW (the goofy comic book Zody the Mod Rob). Also: Mego’s rare Elastic Hulk toy; RetroTravel to Mount Airy, NC, the real-life Mayberry; an interview with BETTY LYNN, “Thelma Lou” of The Andy Griffith Show; the scarcity of Andy Griffith Show collectibles; a trip inside TOM STEWART’s eclectic House of Collectibles; RetroFan’s Too Much TV Quiz; and a RetroFad shout-out to Mr. Microphone. Edited by Back Issue magazine’s MICHAEL EURY! (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 • (Digital Edition) $4.95 • FIRST ISSUE NOW SHIPPING!

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NEW BOOKS! JACK KIRBY CHECKLIST: CENTENNIAL EDITION

This final, fully-updated, definitive edition clocks in at DOUBLE the length of the 2008 “Gold Edition”, in a new 256-page LTD. EDITION HARDCOVER (only 1000 copies) listing every release up to Jack’s 100th birthday! Detailed listings of all of Kirby’s published work, reprints, magazines, books, foreign editions, newspaper strips, fine art and collages, fanzines, essays, interviews, portfolios, posters, radio and TV appearances, and even Jack’s unpublished work! (256-page LIMITED EDITION HARDCOVER) $34.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-083-0 • NOW SHIPPING!

KIRBY & LEE: STUF’ SAID! (JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR #75)

This first-of-its-kind examination of the creators of the Marvel Universe looks back at their own words, in chronological order, from fanzine, magazine, radio, and television interviews, to paint a picture of JACK KIRBY and STAN LEE’s relationship—why it succeeded, where it deteriorated, and when it eventually failed. Also here are recollections from STEVE DITKO, WALLACE WOOD, JOHN ROMITA SR., and more Marvel Bullpen stalwarts who worked with both Kirby and Lee. Rounding out this book is a study of the duo’s careers after they parted ways as collaborators, including Kirby’s difficulties at Marvel Comics in the 1970s, his last hurrah with Lee on the Silver Surfer Graphic Novel, and his exhausting battle to get back his original art—and creator credit—from Marvel. STUF’ SAID gives both men their say, compares their recollections, and tackles the question, “Who really created the Marvel Comics Universe?”. (160-page trade paperback) $24.95 • (Digital Edition) $11.95 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-086-1 • SHIPS FALL 2018!

COMIC BOOK IMPLOSION

AN ORAL HISTORY OF DC COMICS CIRCA 1978

Things looked bleak for comic books throughout the 1970s because of plummeting sell-through rates. With each passing year, the newsstand became less and less interested in selling comic books. The industry seemed locked in a death spiral, but the Powers That Be at DC Comics had an idea to reverse their fortunes. In 1978, they implemented a bold initiative: Provide readers with more story pages by increasing the pricepoint of a regular comic book to make it comparable to other magazines sold on newsstands. Billed as “THE DC EXPLOSION,” this expansion saw the introduction of numerous creative new titles. But mere weeks after its launch, DC’s parent company pulled the plug, demanding a drastic decrease in the number of comic books they published, and leaving stacks of completed comic book stories unpublished. The series of massive cutbacks and cancellations quickly became known as “THE DC IMPLOSION.” TwoMorrows Publishing marks the 40th Anniversary of one of the most notorious events in comics with an exhaustive oral history from the creators and executives involved (JENETTE KAHN, PAUL LEVITZ, LEN WEIN, MIKE GOLD, and AL MILGROM, among many others), as well as detailed analysis and commentary by other top professionals, who were “just fans” in 1978 (MARK WAID, MICHAEL T. GILBERT, TOM BREVOORT, and more)—examining how it changed the landscape of comics forever! By KEITH DALLAS and JOHN WELLS. (136-page trade paperback with COLOR) $21.95 • (Digital Edition) $10.95 • NOW SHIPPING! ISBN: 978-1-60549-085-4

THE 1990s was the decade when Marvel Comics sold 8.1 million copies of an issue of the X-MEN, saw its superstar creators form their own company, cloned SPIDER-MAN, and went bankrupt. The 1990s was when SUPERMAN died, BATMAN had his back broken, and the runaway success of Neil Gaiman’s SANDMAN led to DC Comics’ VERTIGO line of adult comic books. It was the decade of gimmicky covers, skimpy costumes, and mega-crossovers. But most of all, the 1990s was the decade when companies like IMAGE, VALIANT and MALIBU published million-selling comic books before the industry experienced a shocking and rapid collapse. AMERICAN COMIC BOOK CHRONICLES: THE 1990s is a year-by-year account of the comic book industry during the Bill Clinton years. This full-color hardcover documents the comic book industry’s most significant publications, most notable creators, and most impactful trends from that decade. Written by KEITH DALLAS and JASON SACKS. (288-page FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER) $44.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.95 • SHIPS FALL 2018! ISBN: 978-1-60549-084-7

AMERICAN COMIC BOOK CHRONICLES: The 1990s

creators at the con

HAVING A GOOD TIME — HIGHLY AMUSED AT THE CON: Comic conventions can be fun not only for the fans, but for the comic book creators as well! At right: Katie Cook, artist and writer known for My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic and Gronk: A Monster’s Story, has a laugh at New York Comic Con 2015. Middle row: At left is Marguerite Bennett (creator of InSEXts and Animosity) shares a chuckle at NYCC 2015; middle is artist and Black Lightning co-creator Trevor Von Eeden having a belly laugh at Comic-Con International: San Diego 2012; and, at Wizard World Philadelphia in 2013, all-round cartoonist Brad Guigar (author of three books, including The Everything Cartooning Book [2004]) is in a mirthful mood. Bottom row: Man and legend Howard Chaykin finds our intrepid photographer humorous in this triptych taken at the 2014 Special Edition NYC. The writer and artist is, of course, creator of American Flag and Black Kiss, and lots and lots of other stuff.

Photography by Kendall Whitehouse

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

creator’s creators

Darrick & Daughters

CBC’s newest contributor on comics, creators, and his twin girls, Logann and Nola I was born in September of 1980. Three years later, my fascination with comic books began at flea markets and grocery stores. My grandmother, Nancy Walters, always made sure that I had super-hero books for my collection. My mother, Rita Patrick, owned a lot of underground titles that I had access to, material that certainly wasn’t age appropriate, but I’m grateful I also had a chance to cut my teeth with independent books. Until the early ’90s, I didn’t really worry about building full storylines. The condition of my comics didn’t matter much to me either. That all changed with the release of the die-cut Wolverine #50, in 1992. I had to have a bag-and-board for that beautiful, slashed cover. I also needed the rest of the story arc… and the one before that… oh, and new issues, too. I definitely had to become a file customer. That was it. I was sucked in hard. A huge chunk of my teenage years, 20s, and 30s were spent delving into comic books. As I am approaching 40, not much has changed. I’ve been doing social media work for years at a comic-&-card shop in Kettering, Ohio, called Mavericks. That keeps me in touch with all of the current releases on a weekly basis. I started doing interviews over a decade ago when I was involved in a social media network. We would make the interviews available on the front page of the site. My two main focuses were on professional mixed martial artists and comic book creators, who would also create profile accounts to be linked to from their interviews. After I stepped away from that project, I continued for a few years with the MMA interviews for a martial arts website.

In 2012, when my twin daughters were around a year old, I decided to hang it all up for a bit to spend more time with the girls. When ACE: All Comics Evaluated magazine was released in 2015, I was highly impressed. Actually, I loved it. I contacted Robert Yeremian and Jon B. Cooke to express my interest in being involved. I was able to contribute to the third and final issue with an interview that I did with Herb Trimpe. Since then, while biding my time to be let out of the cage for Comic Book Creator, I generally scratch my itch with being a low-key letter hack. The twins, Logann [left in photo at center inset] and Nola [at right; Dad’s in the middle, and Mom’s behind the lens], like to participate with me and have been published in quite a few comics so far in their young lives. As much as I’ve always enjoyed the medium, it is an entirely new and insanely rewarding experience to share with my children. Thankfully, their mother and my lady, Niki Wooten, understands our passion. (We still have to watch how many books we leave laying around the house, though.) What we all do now become the memories of tomorrow, and it is fulfilling for me to help document the lives of creators of yesterday and today. It’s gratifying to help preserve comics history for the future, to document the impact of the stories and the people who created them. And, just maybe, the history we capture just might be appreciated by generations to come. We’re all lucky to exist together at this point in time. And there are a lot of wonderful artists we share reality with. The individuals who provide our imaginations with such great material are generally intriguing stories themselves, as people. Just as it is a gift to be able to create, it is an honor to shine a bit of light on the creators. — Darrick Patrick, CBC Columnist

coming attractions: cbc #19 in January

Fantastic Frazetta Fandom Festivities! $9.95 in the USA

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A TwoMorrows Publication

No. 19, Fall 2018

A Special Retrospective NOW

100

82658 97073

PAGES!

CELEBRATING THE GREATEST FANTASY ARTIST OF ALL TIME

Comics historian STEVE RINGGENBERG joins CBC as guest co-editor for our special tribute to the great fantasy artist, FRANK ALFONSO FRAZETTA [1928–2010], including a comprehensive, careerspanning interview with the master unseen for 32 years, a Q&A complemented with innumerable articles on his many achievements. Among the essays are respective examinations of Frank’s Conan the Barbarian work and “Adventures of a Brooklyn Hillbilly” (you’ll find out!); studies of his White Indian series as well as his public service advertisements; forays into his ace caricaturist material in movie posters and record album covers; plus looks at the Frazetta documentary and the different checklists devoted to the artist. Our cover artist, the magnificent TOM GRINDBERG, gets the CBC interview treatment, as does famed painter JOE JUSKO, as we talk to the two in separate Q&As about their careers and the indelible Frazetta influence on their work. Plus we conclude our chat with alternative cartoonist MARY FLEENER (whose Billie the Bee graphic novel will soon be published) and feature another installment of Michael Aushenker’s exhaustive interview with the late RICH BUCKLER, with this segment focusing on his Black Panther work and the Deathlok lawsuit. And, of course, we include our usual excellent features from Rich Arndt, Tom Ziuko, Kendall Whitehouse, Darrick Patrick, and, of course, Mr. Dateline himself, mighty Fred Hembeck!

Cover painting by Tom Grindberg

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2018 • #18

Full-color, 100 pages, $9.95 95

a picture is worth a thousand words from the archives of Tom Ziuko This is my original coloring of the Kevin O’Neill editorial presentation art for the DC Comics graphic novel [1986]. — TZ

#18 • Summer 2018 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

ALTER EGO #154

ALTER EGO #155

ALTER EGO #156

ALTER EGO #157

DRAW #35

ALLEN BELLMAN (1940s Timely artist) interviewed by DR. MICHAEL J. VASSALLO, with art by SHORES, BURGOS, BRODSKY, SEKOWSKY, EVERETT, & JAFFEE. Plus Marvel’s ’70s heroines: LINDA FITE & PATY COCKRUM on The Cat, CAROLE SEULING on Shanna the She-Devil, & ROY THOMAS on Night Nurse—with art by SEVERIN, FRADON, ANDRU, and more! With FCA, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

Golden Age artist/writer/editor NORMAN MAURER remembered by his wife JOAN, recalling BIRO’s Crime Does Not Pay, Boy Comics, Daredevil, St. John’s 3-D & THREE STOOGES comics with KUBERT, his THREE STOOGES movies (MOE was his father-inlaw!), and work for Marvel, DC, and others! Plus LARRY IVIE’s 1959 plans for a JUSTICE SOCIETY revival, JOHN BROOME, FCA, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY and more!

All Time Classic Con continued from #148! Panels on Golden Age (CUIDERA, HASEN, SCHWARTZ [LEW & ALVIN], BOLTINOFF, LAMPERT, GILL, FLESSEL) & Silver Age Marvel, DC, & Gold Key (SEVERIN, SINNOTT, AYERS, DRAKE, ANDERSON, FRADON, SIMONSON, GREEN, BOLLE, THOMAS), plus JOHN BROOME, FCA, MR. MONSTER, & BILL SCHELLY! Unused RON WILSON/CHRIS IVY cover!

Interview with JOYE MURCHISON, assistant to Wonder Woman co-creator DR. WILLIAM MARSTON, and WW’s female scriptwriter from 1945-1948! Rare art by H.G. PETER, 1960s DC love comics writer BARBARA FRIEDLANDER, art & anecdotes by ROMITA, COLAN, JAY SCOTT PIKE, INFANTINO, WEISINGER, JULIUS SCHWARTZ, and others! Extra: FCA, JOHN BROOME, MR. MONSTER, & more!

Fantasy/sci-fi illustrator DONATO GIANCOLA (Game of Thrones) demos his artistic process, GEORGE PRATT (Enemy Ace: War Idyll, Batman: Harvest Breed) discusses his work as comic book artist, illustrator, fine artist, and teacher, Crusty Critic JAMAR NICHOLAS, JERRY ORDWAY’S regular column, and MIKE MANLEY and BRET BLEVINS’ “Comic Art Bootcamp.” Mature Readers Only.

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BACK ISSUE #108

BACK ISSUE #109

BACK ISSUE #110

BACK ISSUE #111

BRICKJOURNAL #53

BRONZE AGE AQUAMAN! Team-ups and merchandise, post-Crisis Aquaman, Aqualad: From Titan to Tempest, Black Manta history, DAVID and MAROTO’s Atlantis Chronicles, the original unseen Aquaman #57, and the unproduced Aquaman animated movie. With APARO, CALAFIORE, MARTIN EGELAND, GIFFEN, GIORDANO, ROBERT LOREN FLEMING, CRAIG HAMILTON, JURGENS, SWAN, and more. ERIC SHANOWER cover!

SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE 40th ANNIVERSARY! CARY BATES’ plans for unfilmed Superman V, ELLIOT S. MAGGIN’s Superman novels, 1975 CARMINE INFANTINO interview about the movie, plus interviews: JACK O’HALLORAN (Non), AARON SMOLINSKI (baby Clark), JEFF EAST (young Clark), DIANE SHERRY CASE (teenage Lana Lang), and Superman Movie Contest winner ED FINNERAN. Chris Reeve Superman cover by GARY FRANK!

MAKE MINE MARVEL! ENGLEHART’s “lost” issues of West Coast Avengers, O’NEIL and INFANTINO’s Marvel work, a WAID/ NOCENTI Daredevil Pro2Pro interview, British Bronze Age Marvel fandom, Pizzazz Magazine, Speedball, Marvel Comics Presents, and backstage at Marvel Comicon ’75 and ’76! With DeFALCO, EDELMAN, KAVANAGH, McDONNELL, WOLFMAN, and cover by MILGROM and MACHLAN.

ALTERNATE REALITIES! Cover-featuring the 20th anniversary of ALEX ROSS and JIM KRUEGER’s Marvel Earth X! Plus: What If?, Bronze Age DC Imaginary Stories, Elseworlds, Marvel 2099, and PETER DAVID and GEORGE PÉREZ’s senses-shattering Hulk: Future Imperfect. Featuring TOM DeFALCO, CHUCK DIXON, PETER B. GILLIS, PAT MILLS, ROY THOMAS, and many more! With an Earth X cover by ALEX ROSS.

VIDEO GAME ISSUE! Get ready as LEGO designers TYLER CLITES and SEAN MAYO show you LEGO hacks to twink and juice your creations! Also, see big bad game-inspired models by BARON VON BRUNK, and Pokemon-inspired models by LI LI! Plus: Minifigure customizing from JARED K. BURKS, step-by-step “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, BrickNerd’s DIY Fan Art, & more!

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(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 • Ships Nov. 2018

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TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History.

KIRBY COLLECTOR #75

KIRBY COLLECTOR #76

RETROFAN #1

RETROFAN #2

KIRBY & LEE: STUF’ SAID! The creators of the Marvel Universe’s own words, in chronological order, from fanzine, magazine, radio, and TV interviews, painting a picture of JACK KIRBY and STAN LEE’s relationship—why it succeeded, where it deteriorated, and when it eventually failed. Includes a study of their solo careers after 1970, and recollections from STEVE DITKO, WALLACE WOOD, & JOHN ROMITA SR.

FATHERS & SONS! Odin/Thor, Zeus/ Hercules, Darkseid/Orion, Captain America/ Bucky, and other dysfunctional relationships, unpublished 1994 interview with GIL KANE eulogizing Kirby, tributes from Jack’s creative “sons” in comics (MUMY, PALMIOTTI, QUESADA, VALENTINO, McFARLANE, GAIMAN, & MILLER), MARK EVANIER, 2018 Kirby Tribute Panel, Kirby pencil art gallery, and more!

THE CRAZY, COOL CUTURE WE GREW UP WITH! LOU FERRIGNO interview, The Phantom in Hollywood, Filmation’s Star Trek cartoon, “How I Met Lon Chaney, Jr.”, goofy comic Zody the Mod Rob, Mego’s rare Elastic Hulk toy, RetroTravel to Mount Airy, NC (the real-life Mayberry), interview with BETTY LYNN (“Thelma Lou” of The Andy Griffith Show), TOM STEWART’s eclectic House of Collectibles, and Mr. Microphone!

HALLOWEEN! Horror-hosts ZACHERLEY, VAMPIRA, SEYMOUR, MARVIN, and new interview with our cover-featured ELVIRA! THE GROOVIE GOOLIES, BEWITCHED, THE ADDAMS FAMILY, and THE MUNSTERS! The long-buried Dinosaur Land amusement park! History of BEN COOPER HALLOWEEN COSTUMES, character lunchboxes, superhero VIEW-MASTERS, SINDY (the British Barbie), and more!

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orrows Inc.

Inspired By The SUPER COOL Culture We Grew Up With!

#4: Interviews with the Shazam! TV show’s JOHN (Captain Marvel) DAVEY and MICHAEL (Billy Batson) GRAY, the Green Hornet in Hollywood, remembering monster maker RAY HARRYHAUSEN, the way-out Santa Monica Pacific Ocean Amusement Park, a Star Trek Set Tour, SAM J. JONES on the Spirit movie pilot, British scifi TV classic Thunderbirds, Casper & Richie Rich museum, the King Tut fad, and more! SHIPS MARCH 2019!

NEW!

RETROFAN #3 celebrates the 40th ANNIVERSARY of SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE with an exclusive interview with Superman director RICHARD DONNER! Editor MICHAEL EURY voyages to the bottom of IRWIN ALLEN’s sci-fi universe and Retro Travels to Metropolis, IL, home of the Superman Celebration! ANDY MANGELS dives in to Saturday morning’s undersea adventures of AQUAMAN! ERNEST FARINO flips through monster fanzines of the Sixties and Seventies! The Oddball World of SCOTT SHAW! unravels Marvel’s wackiest product ever: Spider-Man and Hulk toilet paper! SCOTT SAAVEDRA adopts a family of SEA-MONKEYS®! Plus FUNNY FACE beverages and collectibles, a fortress of SUPERMAN AND BATMAN MEMORABILIA, and more fun, fab features! (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 • (Digital Edition) $4.95 • SHIPS DECEMBER 2018!

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TwoMorrows. The Future of Pop History.

TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA

#2 NOW SHIPPING! TV horror-hosts ZACHERLEY, VAMPIRA, SEYMOUR, MARVIN, and cover-featured ELVIRA interview! Groovie Goolies! Creepy, kooky sitcoms Bewitched, The Addams Family, and The Munsters! The long-buried Dinosaur Land amusement park! History of Ben Cooper Halloween costumes! Super collection of character lunchboxes! Plus superhero ViewMasters; Sindy, the British Barbie; Mood Rings; and more fun, fab features! Phone: 919-449-0344 E-mail: store@twomorrows.com Web: www.twomorrows.com

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Edited by Back Issue’s MICHAEL EURY!