Comic Book Creator #30 by TwoMorrows Publishing

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No. 30, Spring 2023

Pity the fool that doesn’t pick up

RetroFan #26! RETROFAN #26

The saga of Saturday morning’s Super Friends, Part One! Plus: A history of MR. T, TV’s AVENGERS (Steed and Mrs. Peel), Daktari’s CHERYL MILLER, Mexican movie monsters, John and Yoko’s nation of Nutopia, ELIZABETH SHEPHERD (the actress who almost played Emma Peel), and more! With ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, MARK VOGER, & MICHAEL EURY. NOW SHIPPING! And in RETROFAN #25, meet Mission: Impossible’s LYNDA DAY GEORGE in an exclusive interview! And celebrate RAMBO’s 50th birthday with his creator, novelist DAVID MORRELL! Plus: TV faves WKRP IN CINCINNATI and SPACE: 1999, Fleisher’s and Filmation’s SUPERMAN CARTOONS, commercial jingles, JERRY LEWIS and BOB HOPE comic books, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY. NOW SHIPPING! (84-page magazines) $10.95 • (Digital Editions) $4.99

RETROFAN #20

RETROFAN #21

RETROFAN #22

RETROFAN #23

RETROFAN #24

MAD’s maddest artist, SERGIO ARAGONÉS, is profiled! Plus: TV’s Route 66 and an interview with star GEORGE MAHARIS, MOE HOWARD’s final years, singer B. J. THOMAS in one of his final interviews, LONE RANGER cartoons, G.I. JOE, and more! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Meet JULIE NEWMAR, the purr-fect Surf’s up as SIXTIES BEACH MOVIES make Catwoman! Plus: ASTRO BOY, TARZAN a RetroFan splash! Plus: He-Man and the Saturday morning cartoons, the true Masters of the Universe, ZORRO’s Saturday history of PEBBLES CEREAL, TV’s THE morning cartoon, TV’s THE WILD, WILD UNTOUCHABLES and SEARCH, the WEST, CARtoons and other drag-mags, MONKEEMOBILE, SOVIET EXPO ’77, and VALSPEAK, and more fun, fab features! more fun, fab features! Featuring columns Like, totally! Featuring columns by ANDY by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY. VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Meet the stars behind the Black Lagoon: RICOU BROWNING, BEN CHAPMAN, JULIE ADAMS, and LORI NELSON! Plus SHADOW CHASERS, featuring show creator KENNETH JOHNSON. Also: THE BEATLES’ YELLOW SUBMARINE, FLASH GORDON cartoons, TV’s cult classic THE PRISONER and kid’s show ZOOM, COLORFORMS, M&Ms, and more fun, fab features! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Interviews with Lost in Space’s ANGELA CARTWRIGHT and BILL MUMY, and Land of the Lost’s WESLEY EURE! Revisit Leave It to Beaver with JERRY MATHERS, TONY DOW, and KEN OSMOND! Plus: UNDERDOG, Rankin-Bass’ stop-motion classic THE LITTLE DRUMMER BOY, Christmas gifts you didn’t want, the CABBAGE PATCH KIDS fad, and more! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

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TwoMorrows. The Future of Pop History.

RETROFAN #16

RETROFAN #17

RETROFAN #18

RETROFAN #19

An exclusive interview with Logan’s Run star MICHAEL YORK, plus Logan’s Run novelist WILLIAM F. NOLAN and vehicle customizer DEAN JEFFRIES. Plus: the Marvel Super Heroes cartoons of 1966, H. R. Pufnstuf, Leave It to Beaver’s SUE “Miss Landers” RANDALL, WOLFMAN JACK, drive-in theaters, My Weekly Reader, DAVID MANDEL’s super collection of comic book art, and more!

Dark Shadows’ Angelique, LARA PARKER, Our BARBARA EDEN interview will keep sinks her fangs into an exclusive interview. you forever dreaming of Jeannie! Plus: The Invaders, the BILLIE JEAN KING/BOBBY Plus: Rankin-Bass’ Mad Monster Party, RIGGS tennis battle of the sexes, HANNAAurora Monster model kits, a chat with Aurora painter JAMES BAMA, George of BARBERA’s Saturday morning super-heroes the Jungle, The Haunting, Jawsmania, Drak of the Sixties, THE MONSTER TIMES fanzine, and more fun, fab features! Featuring Pack, TV dads’ jobs, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by FARINO, ERNEST FARINO, ANDY MANGELS, WILL MANGELS, MURRAY, SAAVEDRA, SHAW, MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW!, and MICHAEL EURY. and MICHAEL EURY.

Interview with Bond Girl and Hammer Films actress CAROLINE MUNRO! Plus: WACKY PACKAGES, COURAGEOUS CAT AND MINUTE MOUSE, FILMATION’S GHOSTBUSTERS vs. the REAL GHOSTBUSTERS, Bandai’s rare PRO WRESTLER ERASERS, behind the scenes of Sixties movies, WATERGATE at Fifty, Go-Go Dancing, a visit to the Red Skelton Museum, and more fun, fab features!

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Spring 2023 • The Michael Cho Issue • Number 30

T A

MICHAEL CHO Portrait by KEN MEYER, JR.

Ye Ed’s Rant: Who in the hell would care for a Gold Key/Dell/Western history…?!............ 2

About Our Cover

COMICS CHATTER Up Front: The Accidental Publisher. A look at Norman Goldfind, brave publisher of Will Eisner's first graphic novel, A Contract with God, and a whole lot more!.............. 3

Cover art by MICHAEL CHO

Once Upon a Long Ago: Who was Mayo Kaan, the man who wasn't Superman?............ 17 Ten Questions: CBC's own Fred Hembeck gets quizzed by Darrick Patrick!...................... 18 Comics in the Library: P. Craig Russell on his illustrating the classics!........................... 19

The Avengers TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Second City Comics Guy: The final segment of our three-part interview with mighty Mike Gold, chatting about his co-founding First Comics and glorious return to DC...... 20 Cooke's Column: CBC is now a 10-year-old mag… and Comic Book Artist turns 25!...... 33 Incoming: A single missive and then on to the rave Charlton Companion reviews!.......... 34 Hembeck’s Dateline: Atlas, our Good Man Fred goes over(Sea)board!........................... 37 Above: Michael Cho assembles a fantastic cover for us — with his pencils, inks, and colors — starring the classic Avengers line-up circa 1964, all posing in splendid Jack Kirby-eque fashion. Ye Ed and Mike started discussing his being cover-featured in CBC back in the ancient, pre-Covid times of 2019, when we met at my pal Cliff Galbraith's lamented East Coast ComiCon. It took, like, forever for the stars to align and finally schedule this magnificent Cho-tastic ish, and here's hoping you find his feature is as satisfying as your humble editor!

Don’t STEAL our Digital Editions! C’mon citizen, DO THE RIGHT THING! A Mom & Pop publisher like us needs every sale just to survive! DON’T DOWNLOAD OR READ ILLEGAL COPIES ONLINE! Buy affordable, legal downloads only at

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COMIC BOOK CREATOR is a proud joint production of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows

BACK MATTER Creators at the Con: Kendall Whitehouse remembers Asbury Park Comic Con............... 78 Coming Attractions: Artist Graham Nolan will tell us all about the Wages of Bane!....... 79 A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words: Tom Ziuko goes deep with Kent Menace........ 80 Right: A detail of Michael Cho's Empyre #6 [Nov. 2020] variant cover staring the Fantastic Four and friends. EDITOR’S NOTE: Because of a typographical format change we were forced to implement, both the 1974 Jack Adler/DC Production piece and the feature on Ron Barrett and his short-lived comics tabloid, The Funny Papers, had to be postponed as we ran out of room! For a version of the latter, visit 13thdimension.com/ alternative-fridays-the-funny-papers-by-jon-b-cooke (and check out my other columns from 2013 there, as well!)

Comic Book Artist Vol. 1 & 2 are available as digital downloads from twomorrows.com Comic Book Creator ™ is published quarterly (more or less) by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Dr., Raleigh, NC 27614 USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Jon B. Cooke, editor. John Morrow, publisher. Comic Book Creator editorial offices: P.O. Box 601, West Kingston, RI 02892 USA. E-mail: jonbcooke@aol.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Four-issue subscriptions: $53 US, $78 International, $19 Digital. All characters are © their respective copyright owners. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter ©2023 Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. Comic Book Creator is a TM of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. ISSN 2330-2437. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING.

All characters TM & © Marvel Characters. Inc.

& DON’T SHARE THEM WITH FRIENDS OR POST THEM ONLINE. Help us keep producing great publications like this one!

THE MAIN EVENT Michael Cho: The Beauty of the World The wonderful Canadian comic book artist and illustrator shares with Ye Ed about his Korean heritage, robot-lovin' and Star Wars-obsessed youth, angsty teen years, emergence as fine art painter, friendship with Darwyn Cooke, and his juggling a busy career and family as a young father to now devote more energy to storytelling. And, of course, Mike discusses his first graphic novel, the acclaimed Shoplifter, and both his cutting-edge covers and his classic "old school" covers for Marvel and DC, and hints at a comics magnum opus to come!.............................................................. 40

This issue is dedicated to the memories of ALINE KOMINSKY-CRUMB, GEORGE BOOTH, DAN BULANADI, KEVIN O’NEILL, KIM JUNG GI, ™

Re: Gold Key & Me JON B. COOKE

Editor & Designer

JOHN MORROW

Publisher & Consulting Editor

GREG BIGA

Associate Editor

MICHAEL CHO

Cover Artist & Colorist

RICHARD J. ARNDT TOM ZIUKO STEVEN THOMPSON MICHAEL AUSHENKER Contributing Editors

J.D. KING

CBC Cartoonist Emeritus

TOM ZIUKO

CBC Colorist Supreme

RONN SUTTON

CBC Illustrator

KEN MEYER, JR.

CBC Color Portrait Artist

ROB SMENTEK CBC Proofreader

GREG PRESTON

CBC Contributing Photographer

KENDALL WHITEHOUSE RICHARD ARNDT FRED HEMBECK DARRICK PATRICK STEVEN THOMPSON TOM ZIUKO CBC Columnists

To contact CBC, please email jonbcooke@aol.com or snail-mail Comic Book Creator c /o Jon B. Cooke, P.O. Box 601 West Kingston, RI 02892 2

Sometimes this stuff gets ridiculous. I’m talking about the tangents that occur when going in deep while researching a given subject. It’s less a rabbit hole than a huge abyss where one falls to land not at the bottom of a pit but rather onto completely different terrains, each as fascinating and tantalizingly new as the last one. For instance, looking into editor Bill Harris’s brief stay at King Comics while studying the transition of the Hanna Barbera properties over to Charlton Comics for my latest book, led me to ponder his previous tenure at Gold Key Comics. So then I scratch my head and wonder, “Hey, what is the real story behind Dell Comics, Gold Key, and Western Publishing, anyway? And what’s up with Whitman? And why were there east and west coast editorial offices…?” I’m sure one call to Mark Evanier can clear things up in a jiff — and thanks to Mark, by the way, for declaring that my Charlton Companion is “the best book on comic book history I’ve seen in a long time”! — but I’m in the thick of it all and I uncover Golden Legacy, Leonard S. Marcus’s brilliant history of Little Golden Books, which also relates the whole Western Printing and Lithography saga, and then I snag a 1957 volume collecting a year’s worth of their in-house employee newsletter, The Westerner, and a cursory glance through it teaches me that their “Comicarnival” sales program of 1956 sold 100 million Dell Comics and that their new Poughkeepsie (“Pokip” to us in the know!) web press can, in theory, print 198,000 comic book covers in a single hour! I mean, what totally amazing, exciting factoids to learn, right? Then I snap out of it and know better. I mean, really! If I wanted to dive in and write a history of Dell/Western/Gold Key, how many people would actually be compelled to buy it? So I return to my senses and find a more practical abyss to jump into and again immerse myself in Forging Metal, Jean Depelley and my history of Heavy Metal, Métal Hurlant, Epic Illustrated, and all their imitators (forgeries?) from the latter ’70s and early to mid-’80s. And there’s the Warren Publications narrative history I’m ramping up, The Book of Warren, plus I’m very excited about my exhaustively detailed look at the life and achievements of the late, great Byron Preiss, the innovative packager and publisher, coming in CBC #32, and a "Best of" CBA coming to celebrate 25 years of my first mag!

My lead piece in this ish is an off-shoot of the Preiss CBC spotlight coming after the next issue and it’s an example of the organic nature of producing this mag in how one subject leads to another and then another… In the meantime, I’m conducting an immersive and satisfying mail interview with Steve Willis, as much a mini-comics guru as any of his fellow “Evergreen Mafia” members, a choice crowd of alternative comix pioneers that included Lynda Barry, Matt Groening, and Charles Burns. I think, when it comes to comics — to borrow Steve’s phrase — “We’re all in the same ball of wax,” and the cartoonist sensibility that emerged from Washington state’s Evergreen State College and grew to become the hoppin’ Seattle scene of the 1980s–’90s is as crucial to the form’s development as any Marvel Age or DC Universe, if not more so. (I’ll be honest and admit that I wish my immediate follow-up to The Book of Weirdo was a history of the cartoonists and comics of the Pacific Northwest, culminating in the era of grunge. Well, maybe someday.) Michael Cho In the meantime, the lovely Mrs. by Ronn Sutton Cooke has retired from her state job of the last 30 years (during which she subsidized her husband’s comics history obsession year in and year out, bless her heart), and it’s time for me to take up some slack until yours truly can join Medicare, so I’ll again be a Layout Guru for John Morrow and cheerfully taking on other gigs he offers now and then. But I won’t be slacking regarding CBC. I will be honest and confess I kinda thought I’d run out of steam with this magazine by #25, but have been steadily regaining the old pep and contemplating taking on subjects like the old Comic Book Artist mag, though more in the form of narratives — you’ll see an example in our Preiss ish. Before concluding, I should tell you kind folks that The Golden Age, for which we had hoped to workshop the script of my brother and my four-act play, was not awarded the state art grant we applied for, so we’re looking for other methods to get the production on stage. I first conceived of the story a quarter-century ago, so we're patient! Finally, a solemn, sad farewell to Aline Kominsky-Crumb, who very suddenly passed away late last year. “The Bunch” was my favorite Weirdo editor and I’m glad to have celebrated Aline in her presence in 2019. Peace to Robert and Sophie.

cbc contributors

Ben Asen Steve Bissette Alan Brennert Aaron Caplan

Michael Cho Greg Goldstein Jackie Estrada Karl Heitmueller Mark Evanier Alex Jay Norman Goldfind Denis Kitchen

Paul Levitz Susan Liberator Manny Maris Justin Marriott

— Y e Crusading Editor jonbcooke@aol.com

Will Murray Bill Pearson Richard Pini Bud Plant

Jenny Robb Joe Staton William Stout Roy Thomas

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

CBC Convention Photographer

The plunge into other worlds for this comics history researcher

up front

CARLOS PACHECO, and LOU MOUGIN

The Accidental Publisher Bookman Norman Goldfind on the glorious and all-too brief life of his Baronet Books ground-breaker, A Contract with God and Other Tenement Stories [1978], indisputably the book first to popularize [In researching a future issue devoted to late comics visionary the term and launch a literary trend in comics and book publishing that continues to this day. and entrepreneur Byron Preiss, I went in search of Baronet And while it’s been established that the late bookBooks founder Norman Goldfind, who published a number of seller/publisher/historian, Richard Kyle, was first to Preiss productions with his small but feisty imprint, including coin the phrase “graphic novel” in a 1964 CAPA-althe graphic novel precursors, The Illustrated Harlan Ellison and the Alfred Bester’s The Stars My Destination adaptation, pha mailing, Will Eisner [1917–2005] would share an anecdote about his spontaneous linking the among others. And, lo, I discovered the maverick publisher living in California, now 86 and retired, and, after two interview two words on the fly around 1977 or ’78. The man who had been crowned “The Father of the Graphic sessions intended to augment the Preiss ish, I found Norman’s achievements — particularly as Baronet publisher and his stint at Novel” told my brother and me about his search for Pyramid Books — so fascinating that I decided to give the native a publisher to get his A Contract with God into print: “I said [to a prospective publisher], ‘Look, I’ve got New Yorker his own feature here! — Ye Ed.] something very interesting for you.’ Well, he’s a very busy guy and very quick, he said, ‘Alright, tell me quickly. “WHAT WAS THE FIRST GRAPHIC NOVEL?” What is it?’ Well, I looked down at it and, in a small voice The debate over the answer to that question, which first [Will said to himself]… ‘Stupid, don’t tell him it’s a comic. emerged in the early 1980s (or thereabouts), will likely rage Think of something else quick.’ So I said, ‘It’s a graphic novel.’ on so long as people have passionate opinions on the subject. ‘Oh,’ he says, ‘That’s very interesting. I never heard of that Some point to Arnold Drake and Matt Baker’s It Rhymes with before. Bring it up here.’ I brought it up there, he looked at it, Lust, from 1950, while others look ahead a quarter-century to looked at me, and says, ‘You know, this is still a comic. We suggest George Metzger’s Beyond Time and Again [1976]. Or you could jump forward a decade, to 1986, when Jack Katz fin- don’t publish this kind of stuff. Go find a smaller publisher.’ ished the last chapter of his epic, First Kingdom. But while some And I did.”* The major publisher who told Eisner to look elsewhere will argue Harvey Kurtzman’s Jungle Book [1959] or Blackmark was Oscar Dystel of Bantam Books, who had already tried and [1971] by Gil Kane should be in the running, almost everyone failed with the format, with the aforementioned Blackmark by agrees on the seismic impact made by William Erwin Eisner’s Gil Kane. And the outfit Eisner next approached was Baronet Books, which might have been small, but it was one fortuitously run by a brave publisher, one willing to give this new form of comics a chance. “I was lucky enough to have been in the room when Will delivered A Contract with God to Norman Goldfind,” legendary book packager Byron Preiss shared at Eisner’s memorial service in 2005. “Norman was a publisher of great courage at a time when comics were not present in the bookstore. He was willing to let the medium, particularly through Will, have a shot at coming into the book world. And, of course, Contract went on to be a great international success. That made Will feel that the medium had a great reach. And, of course, he continued on that vision for the rest of his life.” Yet, even as the adventurous, risk-taking publisher of a book widely considered first of its kind, Norman Goldfind is hardly a recognized name in comics history. And, truth be told, while he had virtually zero presence in the mainstream comics scene, in the perhaps more nebulous realm of 1970s’ comic book hybrids and proto-graphic novels, he made some formidable contributions, achievements well worth studying in detail. (And, as we’ll discover looking into his fascinating life’s work, the gent also helped create one of the greatest, most profitable success stories in ’70s book publishing, to boot!)

Photo courtesy of Norman Goldfind. A Contract with God and Other Tenement Stories TM & © Will Eisner Studios, Inc.

by JON B. COOKE

This page: Brooklyn-born Norman Goldfind, who ascended from an entry level position tabulating book orders for the sales manager to eventually become publisher and executive vice president of Pyramid Books, later founded Baronet, the imprint that published the first American graphic novel of consequence, Will Eisner’s A Contract with God and Other Tenement Stories, in 1978. Above is the maverick publisher in 1982 and inset left is the graphic novel’s cover. Below is Baronet Publishing's logo.

* As documented by Andrew J. Kunka, in his article, “A Contract with God, The First Kingdom, and the ‘Graphic Novel’: The Will Eisner/Jack Katz Letters” [Inks: The Journal of the Comics Studies Society V. 1 #1, Spr. 2017], Eisner had been repeatedly exposed to cartoonist Katz’s use of “graphic novel” in correspondence from as far back as the summer of 1974. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

This page: Top is a 1957 ad showcasing Pyramid Books, which had a bestseller in their edition of Death Be Not Proud. Above is Pyramid co-founder Matt Huttner in 1962. Inset right is Pyramid’s successful detective novel series, Honey West. Below, Norman Goldfind in 1968.

freelance writer dedicated to Jewish causes, Huttner frequently scribed magazine features for Esquire, Coronet, Pageant, and American Mercury (where he had his own “Police Gazette” column) before teaming with former New York Times advertising manager Plaine. Huttner was also longtime treasurer of the Overseas Press Club and, later, the Edward R. Murrow Foundation treasurer. Huttner would prove to become an important guiding influence on Goldfind’s career, which advanced incrementally, after the young man entered the field tallying book orders under a sales manager’s direction. “One thing that I did very well,” Goldfind explained, “was to listen and, slowly, through these conversations, I began to learn more and more about the publishing business, mainly in the sales side of it.” Soon he advanced to administrative assistant and kept a sustained focus on the retail aspect of the book trade. “After a couple of years, as the company grew, they decided to expand the sales department,” he said, “and I was made a regional sales manager for the Midwest, all the way down to Texas.” The year was 1964. Soon enough, he added, “They expanded my territory, which now included the West Coast and I made a lot of contacts, and though I never considered myself a salesperson — it never occurred to me it would be what I wound up doing — because I was kind of shy and oftentimes a little stage-frightened, but I worked my way through it and became fairly good in what I was doing and very successful.” By 1966, Goldfind ascended the corporate ladder to become national sales director and, importantly, was invited to attend the weekly Pyramid editorial meetings alongside Huttner. “And I had a chance to sit in and begin to learn something about the editorial process — how they acquired books, what they were looking for, comments they made, good or bad,” he said. “So it was part of the job I really enjoyed. I began more and more to develop some confidence in my judgment about various books, so I participated in the conversation and offered my suggestions. One of the reasons they had me there was because I was the sales director and they wanted to know what books were doing well, where were they selling, and stuff like that.” THE APPEAL OF PYRAMID For pulp, thriller, and science fiction fans, Pyramid was a dynamic imprint with an enticing selection of titles, including respective anthologies edited by Donald R. Bensen and L. Sprague de Camp, reprints of Sax Rohmer’s Fu Manchu novels,

HUTTNER AT THE HELM Goldfind had been hired by Plaine, elder of the partnership. “But Huttner was really the backbone of the publishing side of the business,” Goldfind said, and, upon examination, Huttner [b. 1915] certainly seems the more interesting of the two. Before the war, Huttner was a onetime steel mill employee who later took up radio and public relations work, and he entered the U.S. Army Air Force as a private and, after serving as legendary General Jimmy Doolittle’s assistant director of intelligence for the duration, he departed military life as captain. A prolific 4

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All books TM & © their respective copyright owners. Honey West TM & © Lynda Y. de la Vina.

Top: Radio host, journalist, activist, oral historian Studs Terkel in his “lived-in” office, circa 1970s. Above: The “other” Mike Gold — and fellow radical! — Jewish American, communist writer, and literary critic born Itzok Isaac Granich [1894–1967], who Terkel met back in the day.

HIS “ACCIDENTAL” CAREER Born in Brooklyn, New York, on Sept. 18, 1936, to parents Joseph and Ida Goldfind, Norman was their second son — brother Martin was four years older — and, as a boy, Goldfind wasn’t attracted to comic books. “They weren’t something I was tremendously interested in,” he said. And, in fact, for someone who subsequently made a sizable and note-worthy impact in the realm of the printed word, he freely admitted he wasn’t much of a reader. “I was one of the most unlikely people to have gotten into the publishing business (which was an accident, so to speak), and to become publisher of several companies,” he confessed. Goldfind’s “accidental break” came in 1958, after leaving college, where he had majored in economics, when he was facing job prospects that were, in his words, “Very, very slight.” With a chuckle, he then added, “As a matter of fact, I was engaged at the time, and I hadn’t completed college and I had no experience, but I needed to get a job, because the wedding date was set.” Frustrated with the lack of response after he answered some want ads, a friend suggested Goldfind place a “situation wanted” classified in the Sunday New York Times. He rejected the initial job proposal he received because it offered a salary of $70 a week. “I said, ‘I’m sorry, I can’t live on that; I need at least $75.’ But they refused to give me the extra five. So I left there and then I got a response from a company called Pyramid Books.” And yet, even though the paperback book publisher offered him the exact same weekly pay as the first respondent, “This time I was determined to get a job, because I was getting desperate, and I accepted. I was hired as an order processing clerk, and that’s how my career in publishing began.” Founded in 1949, Pyramid was a subsidiary of Almat Publishing Corporation, a moniker derived from the given names of owners Alfred R. Plaine [1897–1981] and Matthew Huttner, and it mainly produced paperback books — at first, mostly of the risqué, if not outright sleazy, variety — and a handful of magazines. Goldfind explained, “Pyramid published in any number of categories, everything from mystery and romance, science fiction, fantasy. They did some non-fiction books — some health books…” Another category was inspirational books.

The Zap Gun TM & © the estate of Philip K. Dick. The Second Lensmen TM & © the estate of E.E. Smith. Fu Manchu TM & © Authors League of America.

the Lensman series by E.E. “Doc” Smith, novelizations of Irwin Allen SF-themed TV shows (Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, Time Tunnel, etc.), the private eye Honey West series, and innumerable books by Theodore Sturgeon, Robert Heinlein, Harry Harrison, Shirley Jackson, and many others. Masterful anthologist Bensen was, in fact, Pyramid’s highly-respected speculative fiction editor from 1957–67, and he proved a vital component to the imprint’s success. In his book, The Great American Paperback [2000], Richard Lupoff described the reason behind the company’s prosperity: “Pyramid succeeded and grew into a significant paperback house, seldom challenging the ‘majors’ for high-priced books by top authors, but developing a strong, versatile line of titles under a series of talented editors, most notably the dedicated, creative journeyman, Donald R. Bensen.” (In 1959, Pyramid had a market share of 2.1%.) “After a number of years,” Goldfind said, “Bensen left the company, so they hired a new editorial director and Matt Huttner eventually decided that he was not happy with the gentleman… and he called me into his office, looks at me, and says, ‘Norman, I want you to be editor-in-chief of the company.’” In short order, under the publisher’s guidance, Goldfind stepped up in 1972 to become Pyramid associate publisher and he later expressed gratitude regarding his employer’s unwavering support: “I started to work more and more with Matt Huttner,” he said, “and, more and more, he became my mentor and he had something about him… you use the word, ‘charismatic’… he was a big guy, must have been about six-two or six-three, broad shoulders, walked into a room and took up all the oxygen, and he was the one I wanted to be like, and he was my role model, and he became more and more confident in my ability to do the job and to make editorial decisions without having to run it by him for every book.” In retrospect, Goldfind surmised, “I think the reason my first boss, Matthew Huttner, appointed me to be editor-in-chief is because I had been a salesman, sales manager, and vice-president of sales and marketing… as a matter of fact, I can honestly tell you I wasn’t even a big reader… but I think he had a sense that I was a common reader and had a sense of what the general market would respond to. I mean, that’s my theory.” (Another interesting creative mind in the mix during the mid-’70s was Welsh-born Mark Howell [1945–2021], whose short-lived tenure as Pyramid senior editor was but a brief stop in a captivating career, a time when, he told Paperback Fanatic, Howell COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

was involved in “original paperbacks such as I Was a House Dick (about a hotel detective) plus seminal books on the ’60s counter-culture.”) Behind the scenes at Pyramid, the resilient company — by the early ’70s rechristened Pyramid Communications — could not escape the conglomeration frenzy of that era, as Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, a leading textbook publisher on the prowl to build its own media empire, covetously eyed the paperback house’s $9 million in annual sales and, in 1974, HBJ absorbed Plaine and Huttner’s company in yet another corporate merger of that decade. (Pyramid was so thoroughly devoured that, by 1977, the new owners dropped the brand completely and renamed the imprint Jove Books after HBJ partner William Jovanovich.) BIRTH OF THE BASTARD Importantly though, after the HBJ merger, Matt Huttner was kept on as Pyramid head and he was there long enough to witness his protégé become catalyst for the line’s greatest success in its almost quarter-century of paperback book publishing. Goldfind described a pivotal meeting in late 1973: “Remember 1976? It was the 200th anniversary — the bicentennial — of the country…? Well, every publisher and other companies of different kinds were looking to take advantage of the bicentennial celebration. So, one day, I had a meeting with a gentleman who was a book packager [Lyle Engel] — not an agent, but a book packager — and I had with me my senior editor, Ann Kearns, to have lunch with him and discuss what we might do to take advantage of the bicentennial. We talked for awhile about things that didn’t seem to be really big things — a bicentennial cook book or something like that — and then something hit me.” What struck the associate publisher would ultimately result in a true publishing phenomenon that generated unexpected treasure. Referring to a British sensation recently imported to U.S. public television, Goldfind explained, “I don’t know if you remember a TV series that came over from England called Upstairs Downstairs…? Well, I loved that show and it occurred to me, and I said, ‘You know, I can use that show as a platform…’ And what came to mind was why not create a series of books of a fictional family and, through the eyes of this family, picture the entire 200 years of American history, told through this family’s growth and experience? And Lyle very much liked the idea and he said that one of the authors he works for would be a perfect fit because he had not only written science fiction books (which had nothing to do with this project), but he also wrote historical novels, and his name was John Jakes.”

This page: Above is a very young Donald R. Bensen, who would become a renowned editor of Pyramid’s science fiction line. Inset left is Philip K. Dick’s comedic SF novel, which includes a mad comic book artist character. Below is Edward Elmer Smith — E.E. “Doc” Smith at Solacon, 1958, and his Second Stage Lensmen paperback, pub’ed by Pyramid. Bottom are 12 of Sax Rohmer’s Fu Manchu novels, a series published by Pyramid from 1961–76.

Then an unknown quantity to the greater literary world, but a name recognized in comics and genre fiction as creator of Brak the Barbarian, a Conan knock-off that first emerged in 1960s sword-&-sorcery anthologies and later adapted into Marvel Comics stories in the early ’70s, John William Jakes [b. 1932]

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Brak the Barbarian TM & © John Jakes. Chamber of Chills TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. The Kent Family Chronicles TM & © John Jakes.

This page: Above is poster with inscription by John Jakes to Norman and Rosa Goldfind. Below is the successful eight-volume series published by Pyramid/Jove. Inset top is splash of Jakes’ Brak story in Chamber of Chills #2 [Jan. ’73].

also plotted Conan and Kull yarns for editor Roy Thomas. In a newspaper interview, Jakes remembered, in fact, he wasn’t initially considered for the bicentennial-themed gig. “The first writer proposed was too busy to take on the job and suggested Mr. Jakes,” the New York Times relayed, with Jakes adding an observation: “It all shows you have to be at the telephone at the right time. On such small turns of fate does fortune hang.” Indeed, accepting the assignment made the once struggling writer, previously relegated to work full-time in advertising, a man of considerable wealth. In formulating what would become the multi-volume Kent Family Chronicles, Goldfind shared, “Well, everybody was excited about it and we decided to make it a four-book series covering 50 years of American history in each volume — 50 years, each volume times four: 200 years. And that’s how we started out, but as we went along and John delivered his first manuscript… before the actual bicentennial, we realized that it was impossible to cover all the history in four volumes, so we had to go to eight. John came up with the family based on an Englishman, whose name was Kent, a young Englishman who decided to emigrate to America just before the Revolutionary War and it was then when the story began to take off in terms of the history that we were going to cover.” The first volume was called The Bastard and it became a smash bestseller, a success perhaps due in part to an innovative marketing approach Goldfind helped formulate. “By the way, I had decided that, if we’re going to make this work — and we weren’t one of the big mass-market paperback houses, we didn’t have the resources financially — I had a friend who was in the advertising business, who had his own agency, who worked with people who wanted to do TV advertising, and he put together a program that we were able to afford by doing not a single national campaign (which would cost something that we couldn’t come close to think about), but we could do regional, where the rates were much, much lower. So it was the first book to be advertised on television, the way we did it… All I can tell you is the first book took off and, in eight or ten months, we published the second book and that took off, and before we know it, the first three books become New York Times bestsellers — the first time the Times had three books by the same author on the list at the same time… They were all paperback originals and eventually the series sold a total of 55 million books.” The grateful author made mention of the Pyramid associate publisher in his introduction to a Kent Family collection, calling Goldfind, “the man who lavished so much care and attention on launching the books, personally planned fought for, and implemented a substantial promotion campaign.” But, while sales of the series soared and Jakes went on ever greater success (with the author following up his hit bicentennial series with North and South, a historical fiction trilogy set during the American Civil War which, like the Kent Family saga, would become a network television mini-series), tragedy loomed for Pyramid Books and for Norman Goldfind, in particular.

Weird Heroes, all characters TM & © the respective copyright owner. Photo by Ben Asen. Used with permission.

Above: Clockwise from top left is TV presenter David Seymour; Herb’s “Seymour-Man” drawing; logo for early afternoon TV program, Pebble Mill at One; and aerial shot of the Birmingham BBC studios. Below: Herb drew the cover for this Annual.

SICK, GLASS TEATS, AND A MAN CALLED PREISS Interestingly, in 1968, Pyramid had purchased Sick magazine, publishing the MAD imitator under their Hewfred Publications banner (an imprint name ever-so cleverly derived from the last letters of Huttner and Plaine’s first names, Matthew and Alfred, the inverse of their Almat appellation). In his memoir, The Comic Book Makers, Sick originator Joe Simon wrote, “I packaged Sick magazine for Pyramid Books for two years. Matt [Huttner], owner of the company, did not interfere with the editing process and sales were profitable; but I was getting a little tired of it and so, in the third year at Pyramid, I stepped aside from editing chores but continued to do the covers and a little artwork.” Making mention of the merger with HBJ, the corporation he called a publisher of “tasteful tomes,” Simon continued, “You guessed it: the new owners didn’t think Sick belonged in their line. The title was sold to Charlton Publications for $100,000.” While primarily a paperback house, Pyramid was a player in the magazine trade starting in their early years (by the late ’60s, often under their Hewfred imprint) with the “men’s sweat” adventure titles, Man’s Magazine and Challenge, as well as a short-lived Popular Mechanics knock-off, Mechanics Today. There was also Barrel of Fun, Guy Magazine, Cartoons from the Editors of Man’s Magazine, a series of sports publications (among them COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

Sports Today), and some Sick specials. In addition, there was a steady run of cartoon paperback collections edited by longtime Pyramid staff editor Phil Hirsch (who also authored a substantial number of war-themed histories for the company). Around the time of Pyramid’s growing success with the Kent Family Chronicles, Goldfind, now in charge of the entire line, had been making notable inroads with their science fiction division. “Once I became editor-in-chief” he shared, “I began to attend some of the science fiction conventions and I met Harlan [Ellison] and we developed a very nice relationship and friendship, and he decided to have Pyramid publish his books.” Indeed, Goldfind devoted considerable attention to the 11-volume “Harlan Ellison Uniform Series,” each graced with cover illustrations by Diane and Leo Dillon with their impeccable, distinctive design and typographical branding of the set. Goldfind was among those thanked in the first release (The Glass Teat, which was, along with its companion volume, a seminal influence on Yours Truly… as if anyone should care) and, in the not-too-distant future, author and publisher would team again for another impressive venture, albeit at a different imprint. After Ellison, Goldfind cited a second vital presence regarding Pyramid’s speculative fiction line: “The other person who helped benefit our science fiction program was Byron,”

This page: Covers of the entire Weird Heroes run, all packaged by the late Byron Preiss (above) published by Pyramid/Jove/HBJ between 1975–77, a series intended to revive the old pulp hero tradition with new and captivating characters, all by top SF/comics writers and illustrated by comic book artists.

This page: Byron Preiss’s Fiction Illustrated series, published by Pyramid, was a fascinating four-volume series that included Jim Steranko’s tour de force, Chandler: Red Tide [1976]. Above is Steranko’s centerspread in Mediascene #18 [Apr. 1976]. Inset right is the full-size edition sold in bookstores, which was produced in addition to the digest-size version. Typically distributed at book fairs and trade shows, such as the American Booksellers Association annual convention, below are retailer sellsheets for the first Fiction Illustrated volume, Schlomo Raven: Public Detective [’76] by Preiss and Tom Sutton.

WEIRD HEROES In a 2003 interview, Byron Preiss (a surname pronounced “Price”) recalled it was another project he first pitched to Pyramid while a virtually penniless grad student. After some minor success working with Joe Kubert and Jim Steranko on pro bono inner city youth projects and freelancing for the Children’s Television Workshop, the dynamic and ever-enthusiastic young man came up with an idea that melded two different fields of publishing. “Of course, I had next to no money,” Preiss said, “so I began from Stanford University mailing proposals to New York, to every publisher who would listen. In those days, you could send something to a publisher in an envelope, even if they never heard of you or anything, and they’d still answer. There were, like, 12 mass-market publishers in those days. I sent out 12 packages, got 11 back, with the 12th being Pyramid Books, run at the time by the Huttner family. The publisher or executive vice president was Norman Goldfind. I sent the package to Norman and he writes back and says,

A SHOCKING END AND A NEW BEGINNING What prompted Goldfind’s departure from Pyramid was in part due to the sudden death of his mentor, Matt Huttner, who stunned the book industry when he was stricken at the age of 59, suffering a fatal heart attack while playing golf in Greenwich, Conn., on July 13, 1975. With his champion dead and the other Pyramid partner, Alfred Plaine, already retired, Goldfind was made Pyramid publisher and executive vice president. But the seasoned book professional discovered he was under scrutiny by a young Harcourt Brace executive only a few years in the business and, at almost 40 years old, Goldfind, whose notion over lunch at Manhattan’s Seafare of the Aegean restaurant with Lyle Engel and Ann Kearns had launched the company’s most successful endeavor only a few years prior, found himself in the humiliating situation of being supervised by a publishing novice close to half his age. “I only remained at Harcourt #30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Chandler TM & © James Steranko. Fiction Illustrated, Schlomo Raven TM & © the respective copyright holders.

he said. Wunderkind Byron Cary Preiss [1953–2005] was barely in his 20s when he stepped into Goldfind’s world, but it was actually an event that had a profound impact on both their lives. “It was in the ’70s,” Goldfind said, “and I can’t remember exactly how this was set up, but he came up to see me because he wanted to present some ideas he had. And he did, and we had a very good, long discussion, and I was taken aback by his enthusiasm and his knowledge of the science fiction and fantasy field.” He added with a laugh, “But that wasn’t the book he came up to sell me! The first proposed book of Byron’s was about The Beach Boys [eventually published by Ballantine Books — Ye Ed.]… and then he talked to me about converting existing, well-known science fiction authors and books, and adding illustration to the text.”

‘Well, my editor, Mark Howell, really loves this, loves the old pulps, and thinks this is a wonderful idea. Could you come see us?’ So, on Easter break or whenever I got back from school, I went to see them. Mark Howell had a British accent, was a very jovial guy with a mustache. Norman was a straight-shooter. They said, ‘We’d like to do this.’ I said, ‘That’s fabulous!’” The resulting series was Weird Heroes, a paperback hybrid of comics and science fiction formatted to resemble the old pulp magazines. The innovative title, with the tagline, “A New American Pulp,” ran for eight volumes between 1975–77 and boasted a murders’ row of astonishingly talented artists and writers. Among the comics pros involved were Alex Niño, Steve Englehart, Neal Adams, Jim Steranko, Archie Goodwin, Jeff Jones, Ralph Reese, Elliot S. Maggin, Esteban Maroto, P. Craig Russell, Howard Chaykin, Marv Wolfman, Tom Sutton, Stephen Fabian, Rudy Nebres, Carl Potts, Terry Austin, and Dave Sheridan, among others. Noted science fictions authors included Philip José Farmer, Ron Goulart, Harlan Ellison, Ted White, Ben Bova, Arthur Byron Cover, and Michael Moorcock. Preiss, who wrote his share of prose fiction for the series, honed his skills as burgeoning book packager and, given the (albeit modest) success of Weird Heroes, he soon contracted with Pyramid for another half-comics/half-prose series, Fiction Illustrated, which included Steranko’s brilliant Chandler: Red Tide crime graphic novel. Though the full-color, mostly digest-sized title, which additionally boasted the talents of Sutton, Fabian, and Reese, only lasted a mere four editions, the young entrepreneur would later go on to produce some of his greatest projects with one Norman Goldfind. But, by the time Fiction Illustrated hit the newsstands in 1976–77, Goldfind was long gone from the company to which he had devoted two decades of his professional life. [An upcoming issue of Comic Book Creator, #32, coming in the fall, will showcase the life and work of Byron Preiss, which will feature my comprehensive, career-spanning interview with the late impresario, as well as the memories of many of his collaborators, plus an in-depth look at the astonishing array of Byron Preiss Visual Productions projects. — Ye Ed.]

The Shadow TM & © Advance Magazine Publishers, Inc.

This page: The covers of the first 10 of The Shadow series published by Pyramid, all but #3 (which was a reprint of a George Rosen painting for the original pulp edition) are by James Steranko. In his Mediascene #18 [Mar.–Apr. ’76] article, “How I Paint the Shadow,” the artist explained, “I heard The Shadow adventures were scheduled for reprint by Pyramid Books. Fortunately, an old friend of mine, Joel Friedman was involved in persuading Pyramid to repackage The Shadow, and recommended me as a possible choice as the cover artist… I was more than pleased when Pyramid gave me the nod for the series — so was [The Shadow creator] Walter [Gibson], because it kept the task of visualizing The Shadow ‘in the family.’” Manny Maris related that originally the covers of #4 and #6 were published using each other’s paintings, an error that was corrected during the press run. Above left is Walter Gibson’s inscription to Norm, which incorporates his “Maxwell Grant” pen-name. Above right is The Shadow box set container. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

of a specific artist in each issue… The color art was reproduced on coated stock, but the other pages were plain newsprint, so Cosmos could be called a semi-slick… Its 72 pages sold for $1, the same price as the leading digests, but was almost certainly under-priced. There were 150,000 copies printed of the first issue and 125,000 of the subsequent issues, and it needed at least a 20% sell-through to break even.” ENTER EISNER The centerspread artist for the second issue of Cosmos [July 1977] was a thoroughly unexpected though delightful choice: Will Eisner, who had only just met the new imprint’s publisher. “Will came to me through the president of one of these magazine/ book wholesalers, one out of Wilmington, Delaware, and his name was Stanley Budner,” Goldfind said. “I became friendly with Stanley and he had an idea that I thought could do very well for us: to create a World Bartender Guide, of all things! He said he had somebody who liked the idea and would do it for us, and that somebody was Will Eisner.” Before the exceptionally popular Complete World Bartender Guide was published under the imprint of Eisner’s Poorhouse Press and distributed by Baronet (with Budner and Eisner’s joint concern, Stanowill Publishing Co., somewhere in the mix) the cartoonist had arranged for Goldfind’s company to distribute Will Eisner’s 1978 Tennis Calendar (which received a classy double-page spread excerpt in the July 1977 edition of Esquire magazine) and its companion, Will Eisner’s 1978 Golf Calendar. #30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Spirit, Star Jaws TM & © Will Eisner Studios, Inc. Photo courtesy of Ann Eisner.

This page: Will Eisner (above) intended for his “Outer Space Spirit,” a series of 1952 stories which placed his crimefighter in (you guessed it) space — drawn by the great Wallace Wood — to be used as an insert he hoped to include in Baronet’s science fiction magazine, Cosmos. To be called Probe 1, the insert notion didn’t go anywhere, but Eisner did produce this rarely seen, spectacular color centerspread (top) for Cosmos #2 [July 1977], which also included an essay by the mag’s art director, Jack Gaughan, about the legendary comic book artist. By our count, Eisner produced seven joke books for kid and adolescent readers that were published by Baronet. Star Jaws, a mash-up of movie phenoms, is from 1976.

for six months before there was a dispute,” he explained, “and I decided to leave… I found it difficult to work for a young woman there, in her mid- to late 20s, with two or three years of publishing experience.” But Goldfind didn’t quit without a plan and that plan had a name: Baronet Books. When asked why he started a new imprint in an already crowded field, he exclaimed with a laugh, “Because I needed work! It was my wife who said, ‘Why don’t you start your own company?’ So I thought about it for about a day or so and then I said, ‘Let’s do it!’ And we financed it through some friends and family who bought shares in the company.” Baronet generally published paperbacks focused on the disparate subjects of health/ well-being and science fiction (plus an occasional food-centric effort), with some authors following him over from Pyramid, including Harlan Ellison. And, in a fateful decision, Goldfind opted to also produce two bi-monthly newsstand magazines: Bijou, the Magazine of the Movies, and Cosmos: Science Fiction and Fantasy Magazine. The latter was particularly ambitious, with most of its competition digest-size and, as Mike Ashley discussed in his 2007 book, Gateways to Forever: The Story of the Science-Fiction Magazines from 1970 to 1980: “Cosmos was an attractive magazine from the word go. It was in the large-flat [8½" x 11"] format…and the magazine’s art director, Jack Gaughan, took full advantage of that. It not only sported striking color covers, but also a color centerspread and other colored artwork. The centerspread featured the work

The Complete World Bartender Guide TM & © Norman Goldfind and the estate of Stanley Budner.

They had met in the Fall of 1976, and the pair had hit it off nicely. Eisner wrote to Budner, “I like Norman — I like how he thinks and there appears all the signs of a good personal relationship.” And Goldfind said about going into business with his new friend, “I am most enthusiastic about such a relationship because I feel strongly that we would work well together and that there would be many mutual benefits.” For years, Eisner had been hustling with fervor since his contract producing P*S: The Preventive Maintenance Monthly for the U.S. Army ended in Oct. 1971, after over 20 years and 227 issues. Upon attending a comic convention a few months earlier, he had connected with fans of The Spirit and became actively involved with reprinting the classic series with a succession of publishers, plus he started as an instructor at the School of Visual Arts, launched his own business, Poorhouse Press, and, in association with Crown, published a series of humorous, profusely illustrated Gleeful Guide instructional books. Established in 1973, Poorhouse was called thus because, wife Ann said, “They had to make up a name for it and Will said, ‘Well, this is the best way I know of going to the poorhouse,’ so he decided to call it Poorhouse Press.” “The Press,” explained Will Eisner: A Dreamer’s Life in Comics author Michael Schumacher, “was another of Eisner’s innovations with business roots dating back to his days in the old comic book studios. He wasn’t interested in publishing his non-comics work in the traditional way, which amounted to a loss of creative and financial control. Rather than going through the usual submission and production processes, Eisner could approach a publisher with a finished book, written and illustrated and laid out the way he wanted to see it in print, and upon accepting the project under consideration, the publisher would print and distribute the book, giving Eisner a better cut of the profits than the standard royalty rates. The publishing house imprint also enabled Eisner to market his books wherever he chose, he would no longer be tied down to a particular house.” Still, while in the ensuing years he’d partner with Tempo Books, Scholastic, Kitchen Sink, and Bantam, among others, the legendary cartoonist opted to work steadily with his new friend at Baronet Books during the latter ’70s. Outlined in a November, 1976, letter by Goldfind, the first joint projects of the fledgling partnership were to be Will Eisner’s Tennis Datebook and Calendar, followed a tantalizingly titled hardback collection, The Origin of The Spirit, but very quickly that was whittled down to merely the aforementioned pair of sports-themed calendars.

find and Budner). For his part, Eisner would be associated with another Bantam perennial as illustrator of Robert’s Rules of Order, an edition first published in 1982 by his Poorhouse, and is a title still in print today. Baronet partnered with Stanowill, Budner and Eisner’s publisher packaging operation, to publish Will Eisner’s “joke books” for youngsters, which included Star Jaws, 101 Space Jokes, and Ghostly Jokes and Ghastly Riddles, some contracted with publishers Scholastic and Xerox. And, ever looking to boost his productivity, Eisner had a bunch of proposals for Goldfind. One was the Will Eisner Visual Guide on How to Make Your Own Solar Home Appliances, which Goldfind discussed with SF writer Ben Bova, the two suggesting it should be similar to The Whole Earth Catalogue. There was also The Small World Telephone Directory and The Book of Odds, Chance, Risk, & Percentage in Your Life: A Survival Guide. And another notion pitched by Eisner was a four-page black-&-white supplement stapled into Baronet’s new science fiction mag. The Cosmos insert was to be called Probe 1. “As the subhead suggests (Beyond Space & Time).” Eisner wrote, “I plan this as a science fiction-oriented magazine which will essentially employ

This page: Inset left is Stanley Budner, son of an old Eisner pal, who teamed with the artist and Goldfind to produce their 1977 drink recipe book, which was an instant hit. Below is a Publishers Weekly ad showing Baronet’s 1977 holiday releases, including a Robert E. Howard collection.

NORMAN, WILL, AND STANLEY By Dec. 1976, Goldfind had invested $45,000 of his own money in Baronet and soon the publishing company was humming along steadily. An early success started with an idea that came from the Wilmington distributor and enhanced by the Queens cartoonist. Goldfind said, “There was a bar guide out at the time that was doing very, very well, and that’s where Stanley got the idea to take advantage of the interest in that bar guide to do our own. Except we outdid it because we had two things going for us: 2,000 recipes, about five times the amount as in that bestselling bar guide and, for the first time, some illustration. Will came up with the idea to make an illustration of the glass that goes with a particular drink, so it was illustrated in that way. We eventually published the book and that became a very, very good seller and, in fact, Baronet’s bestselling book.” By mid-1979, The Complete World Bartender Guide was in its sixth printing, under the Poorhouse Press banner, and a few years later Bantam Books purchased rights to the recipe compilation (which eventually was jointly copyrighted by GoldCOMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

A Contract with God TM & © Will Eisner Studios, Inc.

the comic-book format. To start with, I am proposing to use science fiction Spirit stories previously printed. I intend also to include newly created original material by me as well as that of others.” The suggestion to reprint the so-called “Outer Space Spirit” stories — as well as publish the previously mentioned Origin of The Spirit hardback — was made to get the beloved Golden Age crime-fighting character back in circulation. At that time, Eisner’s signature property was consigned to limbo, after Warren Publications had cancelled The Spirit black-&-white mag in mid-1976 and before Kitchen Sink relaunched the reprint series at the end of 1977. (In 1976, Eisner cast his crime-fighter as a sort-of horror host in the Tempo paperback, The Spirit Casebook of True Haunted Houses and Ghosts, about which he was quoted as saying, “[It was] an attempt to treat The Spirit in a more conventional format and an effort to find a place for a ‘comics’ character in the paperback medium. It was a failed effort.”) The comic book creator ultimately hoped that, after a three-issue trial, Probe 1 would cease being what he termed a “magazinelette” insert and be refigured as its own bona fide magazine title, one which he hoped Baronet to publish. Eisner also suggested, “It would be a good idea to start this in Cosmos’ second issue because the centerspread will be a Spirit theme and it might make good sense as well as have reader-excitement value.” Maybe it was in frustration that none of these proposals clicked or perhaps the fledgling book author* simply decided to heed the sage advice of legendary Bantam paperbacks publisher Oscar Dystel and had intended all along to call for a meeting with Goldfind. And, after all, as his partially semi-autobiographical book was born in part of the most excruciatingly painful period in his life, thus any hesitation to offer it for publication upon first meeting newly acquainted Goldfind is perfectly understandable.

A CONTRACT WITH BARONET Maybe it was The Spirit that moved him. That is, perhaps it was the abrupt end of steady revenue from Warren Publications, when The Spirit magazine was cancelled without notice around the time of the American bicentennial, a dilemma that doubtless had the ever-pragmatic Will Eisner brainstorming for other potential sources of income to make up the loss. But, instead of packaging another ephemeral kiddie joke book to shop around or try to catch fire in the syndicated newspaper comic strip market, as his single panel effort, Odd Fact, failed to ignite, ending in May 1976 after a mere seven months of life (though he did sell Tempo/Ace on the idea to publish a paperback collection), Eisner decided to get serious. That summer, he started work on what would become his magnum opus, a collection of four stories he was calling The Tenement (alternatively referred to as A Tenement in the Bronx and reported variations thereof). The finished book, ultimately titled A Contract with God and Other Tenement Stories, took almost precisely two years from his first sitting down to start in July 1976 to Eisner submitting the book’s foreword in Aug. 1978. “This is what I’ve devoted my major serious efforts of the last few years to,” Eisner said in a late 1978 interview with Cat Yronwode for The Comics Journal. “It’s something that I’ve wanted to do for a long time.” But only a select few were privy to this highly personal endeavor and no one but his spouse knew the heartbreaking background of the book’s title story. As was his custom as book packager preparing a presentation for prospective publishers, the cartoonist put together a “dummy” of his first graphic novel — a roughly penciled version with dialogue in place and pages held together with staples. Then, after being rejected by Bantam, he brought it to Goldfind for the Baronet publisher’s consideration, who was impressed from the start. “I loved the idea and we put it together,” Goldfind said. “We did a hardcover signed edition of 1,000 copies and a paperback edition, and we did reasonably well with it. It didn’t become a bestseller back then, but it was one of the books I was really proud of, especially after finding out it was the first graphic novel.” Edited by Rose Kaplan, Baronet senior editor (and former Pyramid division Pillar Books managing editor), A Contract with God was given particular attention as the pages sported sepia-colored ink printed on manila-colored stock, with graytones rendered by Eisner assistant Bo Hampton and his brother, Scott. The limited edition had black cloth binding with gold leaf foil stamped title in place of a dust jacket.

* Though literary novice Eisner did include two books on his biographical submission to the reference book, Contemporary Authors, New Revision Series, Vol. 114 [2003], no doubt productions related to his U.S. government contracts: A Pictorial Arsenal of America’s Combat Weapons [1960] and, with Charles Kramer, America’s Space Vehicles: A Pictorial Review [1962]. 12

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

A Contract with God TM & © Will Eisner Studios, Inc.

THE PAIN BEHIND THE PAGES It would take decades before the graphic novelist discussed the tragedy that lurked behind his first effort. “There is an area of my life which I’ve avoided discussing and that is the death of my daughter. She died of leukemia when she was 16 years old. And it probably had an influence on the book, A Contract with God, and I probably drew on that experience… in hindsight. At the time I wasn’t conscious of drawing on it. As a matter of fact, after her death I avoided talking about it with anybody. I was in a rage over it. I remember not crying, but pounding the table with my fist. It seemed to me to be so patently unfair for this gentle child to, in the springtime of her life, to be taken.” A few years after talking with Thom Powers, Eisner admitted losing young Alice was the explicit impetus for the story, writing in his preface for the Contract with God Trilogy [2005], that the Contract protagonist’s “anguish was mine. His argument with God was also mine. I exorcised my rage at a deity that I believed violated my faith and deprived my lovely 16-year-old child of her life at the very flowering of it.” (My brother and I, whose film documentary, Will Eisner: Portrait of a Sequential Artist [2007], included the excerpt of Powers’ interview with Eisner quoted above, was able to view the artist’s original pencil layouts for Contract, revealing that Hersh’s daughter, named “Rachele“ in the printed version, was originally written as “Alice.”) Though sales of Contract hardly set the world on fire, its practical impact sparked its creator to continue to pursue this new form of storytelling. “The first year,” Eisner said, “it probably sold barely 10,000, but it proved to me that there was an audience out there for it, and so I continued doing graphic novels.” In later years, Eisner told of when Goldfind excitedly called to say Brentano’s, a well-regarded bookstore chain, had placed an order for Contract. “It’s like someone calling and saying the Vatican is publishing your book,” Eisner said. “So I contained myself for a week, and a week later, I ran up to Brentano’s on Fifth Avenue and I found the store manager, and I said to him, ‘I am the author of A Contract With God,’ and he said, ‘Oh, yeah — I had that two weeks ago; did very well.’ I said, ‘Where is it?’” The manager told him, after showcased in front of the store where it had brisk sales, Contact was put in the religion section, then moved to the cartoon book shelf, and soon consigned to oblivion in a cardboard box in the store’s basement. The point being that booksellers did not know where to place this odd new thing called a graphic novel. But that was then. Now is different. “I’ve said this many years ago,” Eisner told me, “I spoke to a distribution group, and they asked me why I started this Contract with God thing. And I said, ‘What I’ve done is opened up the tollbooth in an empty field, waiting for the highway to come through.’ Well, I can tell you now, I see the trucks. The highway’s coming through. My only hope is that they pass my tollbooth.” Indeed, walk in any bookstore in the world today and you will find that each one has a section devoted to graphic novels. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

JUMPING ON SOMETHING NEW It may seem remarkable that the Baronet head had so readily accepted the challenge to publish what is today considered, if not the first of its kind, certainly the singular ground-breaking graphic novel that established a new category in the American book trade. But consider Norman Goldfind, ever the maverick publisher, had only a few years prior ushered in the proto-graphic novels packaged by Byron Preiss, his Fiction Illustrated line. Preiss recalled to me about those Pyramid days, “When Norman saw that we were making money on Weird Heroes, I went in and said, ‘Now, can we do something in the comics form? We want to do something, and they’re going to be long comics, and they’re going to be called “visual novels.” They’re going to be full-color for the newsstand in digest-size, then we’re going to do them in the big size for the bookstores.’” Later at Baronet, even before he published Contract, Goldfind also green-lighted another ambitious comics-related project proposed by the wunderkind, a series of illustrated adaptations initially called Fantastic Fiction. “The fact is, I’m very proud of the few productions we did,” Preiss said. “Specifically, when Norman allowed us to do graphic novels at Baronet, the first two were The Illustrated Roger Zelazny and The Illustrated Harlan Ellison.” About Preiss's lavish productions, which also included a third effort — a planned two-volume adaptation of Alfred Bester's novel, The Stars My Destination — Goldfind recalled, “He talked to me about converting existing, well-known science fiction authors and books, and adding illustration to the text. I’m sure you’re familiar with that series of books that he did in different formats, 8½" x 11", and we used full-color for the illustrations. And we did limited signed editions of the books, as well as a paperback version of the books in that series.” Preiss again proved to be a packager of exquisite taste, utilizing the superb talents of freelance artists, most who frequently worked with the impresario, including Jim Steranko, Ralph Reese, Howard Chaykin, and Gray Morrow, among many others.

This spread: Baronet will always be remembered as the courageous publisher of Will Eisner’s first graphic novel, The Contract with God, based in part on the tragic loss of Will's only daughter, Alice, in 1969. The ad featuring a letter addressing Norman Goldfind (including mag publisher Denis Kitchen’s postscript) on the opposite page from The Spirit #18 [May ’78]. Ye Ed. and my brother detected that the name of the dead child on Eisner’s Contract layouts (including the one opposite) was originally written as Alice, then erased and relettered as Racheleh. Above is preliminary drawing from the book. Top, from left, Will and baby Alice, 1953; Ann and Will and their kids, Alice and John, 1958; John and Alice, ’58; and Will, Ann, and little Alice, ’58. 13

This page: Baronet deserves recognition for its lavishly produced quasi-graphic novels packaged by Byron Preiss, featuring sharp four-color repro and work by top artists, many from comics. Baronet closed before volume two of Alfred Bester’s The Stars My Destination appeared. Marvel’s Epic line published it in 1992, inset right. Below is artist William Stout's tribute to his collaborator done for the upcoming Byron Preiss ish of Comic Book Creator.

MAGAZINE MAYHEM Despite Preiss and Eisner’s respective comics-related innovations coming to the fore in Baronet’s book division, something was seriously amiss in the publisher’s periodical arm, where numbers simply were not adding up profit-wise. Calling his attempts to make it in the magazine game with Cosmos and Bijou “a critical mistake,” Goldfind explained, “Magazines are a very high-risk business and they eat up cash like crazy, and unless you have staying power, which Baronet didn’t have, I 14

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All TM & © their respective copyright holders.

Goldfind shared about Preiss’s efforts for Baronet: “I thought the Illustrated books, were cutting-edge books and I think they did pretty well. He was somewhat on the cutting edge, I think. I thought he was a very creative guy and we had a good relationship.” Preiss agreed they got along well and put the publisher in context to the development of the graphic novel. “Norman Goldford and Baronet, with his little company on Madison Avenue,” Preiss told me, “let me and Will Eisner do stuff that nobody else would let us do.” And Goldfind reflected, “If I had a fault — and I probably had a number of faults — it was that I was always ready to jump on something new.”

couldn’t keep them going and I was in debt to our distributor, Kable News Company.” The movie magazine proved to be the dead weight. Ashley, who had consulted with Goldfind, explained in Gateways to Forever. “Unfortunately, Bijou failed miserably, its sell-through only around 10% and it promptly folded, leaving Cosmos to carry the full burden of costs. Sales of the first four issues remained at around the 35,000–40,000 level which, on its own, was profitable. However, the distribution arrangement meant that Cosmos now had to sell 65% of its print run (or over 80,000) in order to make up the loss on the first three issues of Bijou, and that would not happen. Had Goldfind continued the magazine in the hope that sales would improve, the losses would have eaten into the book publishing side, which was Baronet’s main business, and so the title was dropped.” The loss of Cosmos was particularly painful to its readership, lamented Ashley. “This was a bitter blow because, in quality terms, Cosmos was an excellent magazine. In presentation and looks, it was amongst the best… In its brief existence, it was arguably the best SF magazine around and, given sufficient financial backing and better distribution, it should have succeeded.” Cosmos #4 [Nov. 1977] was the final issue. By late 1978, just as A Contract with God was hitting book shops, with the weight of its Kable debt becoming untenable, Baronet was also buried under mounting unpaid bills from its vendors, including one Will Eisner, who had packaged innumerable Poorhouse books distributed by Goldfind’s imprint. In December, Eisner and Baronet came to an agreement with Eisner loaning the business $25,000 to keep it afloat while it collected monies owed and Eisner being assigned Baronet’s accounts receivable to be repaid the $35,000 owned to him by the publisher and also be reimbursed for the $25k loan. With the economy facing recession and industry observers of the day estimating 80% of all new magazines failed, Preiss told me he was sympathetic to Goldfind’s plight. “If Norman hadn’t published magazines, which he never really wanted to do in the first place, he probably would still be running Baronet,” Preiss said. “But, unfortunately, he made a success of his publishing books and got taken under by his failures in the magazine business. Which was not unremarkable, because everyone was failing in the magazine business.” Still, with his company collapsing around him, Goldfind expressed gratitude that his magazine distributor didn’t strong-arm him personally for the funds. “I was very fortunate,” he said. “Kable didn’t come after me, but the debt put so much stress on the company, from the cash-flow difficulties, that eventually I had to close up. We would have been alive today if it wasn’t for those two magazines.” In its final days, Baronet fulfilled its contractual requirements to Eisner, and Goldfind parted on good terms with the comics master. And despite Baronet folding before the second volume of the Preiss-packaged and Howard Chaykin-illustrated Alfred Bester’s The Stars My Destination was published, the parting was also a friendly one with Preiss, who would go on to a long and prosperous career as packager and, ultimately, a publishing trailblazer. (The complete Bester adaptation, including the unpublished second volume, eventually saw print in Marvel’s Epic line, in 1992.)

All TM & © the respective copyright holders.

BUDS WITH BUDNER “After Baronet,” Goldfind said, “I actually started to look for a job and I wasn’t having much success, so I started something called the Publishers Sales & Marketing Corporation.” In partnership with publishing consultant Stanley Stetzer, Goldfind’s newest firm was, Publisher’s Weekly reported, designed “to meet the needs of small and medium-sized publishing companies.” Essentially, Goldfind explained, he became an agent utilizing all the connections he had made after decades in the industry. While getting PSM off the ground, Goldfind was then approached by a friend he made only a few years earlier. As noted, Stanley Budner [1927–2022] was the colorful proprietor of the Delmar News Agency, a major Delaware-based magazine/ book distribution outfit, and the person who introduced Will Eisner to Goldfind. The trio coming together was to the enormous mutual benefit of all, as profits from the threesome’s hugely successful Complete World Bartender Guide were flowing and plentiful (Goldfind said about he and his wife: “Rosa and I were able to put our daughter through school on the share of profits that we personally made from that bar guide.”) Back in the Golden Age days of The Spirit, Eisner had been friendly with Budner’s father and the founder of Delmar, Edwin Milton Budner [1903–1958]. (E.M. Budner had become the top mid-Atlantic region wholesale distributor as a reward for stepping up in 1932 to take an obscenity rap intended for notorious newspaper publisher Moses Annenberg (father of TV Guide creator Walter Annenberg), whose racy weekly tabloid Baltimore Brevities was suppressed by authorities.) Goldfind described his buddy, Stan: “He was in the book and magazine business, only on the distribution and not the creative end.” But Budner was passionate about the printed word — his car’s vanity license plate read “READ”! — as Wilmington Morning News columnist Bill Frank explained in 1975. “He is what I call the logistics expert for publishers and writers. Without the likes of Stan Budner, writers would be wasting their sweet words upon the desert air. Some of his best friends are authors. And so they should be.” In time for the 200th birthday of the United States of America, Budner himself had became a publisher by reprinting a book of local historical interest and was negotiating rights to a second when he became acquainted with Norman Goldfind. Budner invited COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

the now-publisher of Baronet Books for a July Fourth backyard bicentennial barbeque and the two hatched plans for a regional publishing project that would eventually result in their joint enterprise, Middle Atlantic Press, which focused on books about — and marketed to readers of — the mid-Atlantic region. “It gave me something to do and some additional income,” Goldfind said. In the Baronet days, Goldfind and Budner had shepherded a reprint of Jack Hunter’s Spies, Inc., an industrial espionage thriller set in Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Maryland, sporting cover art by Ralph Reese (with Will Eisner purportedly drawing a local edition cover), perhaps indicating a Byron Preiss connection. The novel specifically targeted consumers in the region.

This page: At top are the culprits that took down Baronet, Bijou and Cosmos magazines. Above is the Budner and Baronet regional paperback, Spies, Inc., with cover art by Ralph Reese. Below, Alex Jay, design coordinator for Mag-A-Book, shared the before/after covers when a drastic title change was needed.

Alas, the obstacles that had hindered Cosmos and Bijou returned to haunt Goldfind’s latest endeavor. “That’s the problem with the magazine business,” he explained with a sigh. “It happens quickly. Cash flow just goes. And remember, magazines are fully returnable, as are paperback books and hardcovers, for that matter. The big difference between paperbacks and magazines is that retailers or wholesalers didn’t have to return the whole book for credit; all they had to do was strip the front cover and send it back. So, in the paperback book business, the average return rate was somewhere around 50%, but you could make money on that and Pyramid did. But there wasn’t enough margin in magazines to sustain the losses and it takes time to build a readership. We just didn’t have the staying power. The Mag-A-Book was financed by Ben Sher. I was a partner, but he was the one who financed it; it was he who decided after, I think, six issues that it was time to drop anchor and leave the ship.” Reflecting on his Mag-A-Book experience, Goldfind said, “They weren’t the highlight of my career, although I’m proud of the fact that we tried a totally new format that might have worked if we had had staying power, but that was it.”

This page: At top is Norman and Rosa Goldfind, in a photo promoting the release of Mag-A-Book magazine, in 1982. At left is a recent pic of the long-married couple. THANKS: Alex Jay, Ben Asen, Manny Maris, Bud Plant, Aaron Caplan, Susan Liberator and Jenny Robb of the Billy Ireland Cartoon Library & Museum, and Justin Marriott. #30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photos courtesy of Norman Goldfind.

MAG-A-BOOK/BOOK-A-ZINE One can’t fault Norman Goldfind for having a grudge against the magazine trade as, after all, his late 1970s foray into the field doomed his beloved Baronet Books. So it’s more than a little ironic — and testament to his cool pragmatism — that his next major move in publishing came when he yet again jumped into the periodical business. But this time, as with a good many things in Goldfind’s fascinating career, there was an innovative twist. The notion was to create a book/magazine hybrid and it came in a May 1980 meeting with a business colleague named Benjamin Sher. “He had a company he inherited from his father, Sher Distributing Company, in New Jersey,” Goldfind explained, “and it was a major distributor to the book trade. He came up with the idea of publishing full-length books in magazine format and his reasoning (which I agreed with) was we can publish them more cheaply than paperback books and we can also include some advertising, something we can’t do with a book.” Goldfind continued, “The original title was Book-A-Zine, but it so happened (and we knew about it) that there was a book wholesaler also located in New Jersey called Book-A-Zine, and they contacted us and said, ‘Listen: you can’t use that name.’ And we didn’t want to get into a lawsuit, so we came up with the name, Mag-A-Book.” It took Goldfind and Sher two years to ramp up the ambitious publication, which would launch in Mar. 1982 after gathering investors and arranging for the reprint rights. Complicating the process was their plan to have four distinct issues of Mag-A-Book every month, each featuring a complete reprint of a bestseller. “Bound individually as magazines, the books will be prefaced by a profile of the author and bordered by glossy, full-page ads,” reported Canadian news magazine Maclean’s, in May 1982. “Says Goldfind: ‘People may not buy an Irving Wallace paperback at $3.95, but we expect they will pick up Mag-A-Book’s reprint.’ Mag-ABook’s plan is not to raid the paperback crowd, but rather to convert the stalwart four out of 10 people who read magazines but never books. To this end, 200,000 copies of each title will be nestled in check-out counter racks, aimed squarely at Mag-A-Book’s largest audience — women aged 18 to 49.”

NORMAN GOLDFIND’S GOOD FORTUNE After mixed results in the 1980s, Goldfind found a comfortable — and quite successful — niche in health and nutrition books as owner and publisher of Keats Publishing from 1989–98. Subsequently, he was vice president of marketing and product development at Avery Publishing Group (where he helmed the hugely successful Avery’s Frequently Asked Questions Series), and, in 2001, he founded — in his 65th year, no less! — Basic Health Publications, which he ran until he retired in 2015, at the age of 79. “I’m proud of most of the things I published,” Goldfind shared in summation. “Obviously there are some highlights. I’ve certainly had some failures in business — I’m not going to kid anybody — and I’ve also had a lot of success in business. But, overall, I think I had a very rewarding career and a bunch of achievements that I’m particularly proud of.” Goldfind also takes great pride in his family. In April 1967, he married second wife Rosa (née Bloch), a women’s clothing fashion designer, painter, and sculptor, who also served as Baronet Books art director. Her lovely visage was immortalized when she modeled for acclaimed portrait painter John Howard Sanden, her likeness appearing twice in the artist’s instructional book, Painting the Head in Oil [1976]. Goldfind added, “I have a daughter named Allison who works as sales and marketing executive in a very large transit company; two grandchildren, Conner, now in his junior year at the University of Utah, and Isabel, who was awarded a full scholarship to play soccer on the women’s soccer team at the University of Utah.” In retrospect, Goldfind said, an aspect of his career had pained him. “One of my problems is that I didn’t hesitate to take a chance on something that was brand new and I overstepped, for example, when I decided to publish magazines with Baronet. That was a knife through my heart. I’ve had other failures, but the failure I had at Baronet lasted with me for a long, long time. But my wife kept telling me, ‘You had many successful projects, so stop thinking only about Baronet.’ And I finally learned how to do that.” Indeed, as the publisher who bravely gambled to introduce a mainstream audience to the newfangled graphic novel, an entirely fresh literary form, he deserves a sense of accomplishment. For, if not first of its kind, his effort did singularly establish a category unique in the book industry, one that still thrives today. Plus, the man sparked the genesis of a bestselling novel series and shared with the world the innovative, brilliant work of Byron Preiss, so Norman Goldfind has every right to be proud of his career’s triumphs.

once upon a long ago

Who was Mayo Kaan?

Steven Thompson searches for the backstory behind the Man Who Wasn’t Superman by STEVEN THOMPSON In 1973, I clipped out a newspaper article about a Boston area man named Mayo Kaan. Kaan (pronounced “Khan” as in Wrath of…) was an aging bodybuilder and, according to him, had been the model for Siegel and Shuster’s original Superman concept. He claimed he had also gone to Hollywood as the first big screen Superman in not just one but two Superman movies made around 1937. He even had photos of himself in his Superman costume from back then and he looked, well… super! As the news stories continued, Kaan hit the talk shows and even appeared on What’s My Line?, always identified as the very first Superman actor! A later news photo featured the chubby, modern day Kaan wearing what he said was his original super suit! It still fit! The problem, of course, lay in the fact that not one reporter who spoke with him or wrote about him ever bothered to check the facts. Where was Lois Lane when you needed her? Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster were Cleveland teenagers who created Superman years before Kaan claimed they spotted him working out in a Boston gym and asked him to model for their new hero. Neither had ever been to Boston. Also, there simply were no Superman movies prior to the late 1940s Kirk Alyn serials from Columbia. Superman’s only big screen appearances prior to Alyn were the Fleischer studio’s animated cartoons. While Mayo certainly looked the part of Superman, his costume looked homemade and had no boots. Certainly, that would never have been used for any professional Superman appearances. Kaan was denounced by those in the know as a liar and a con man. The fan press attacked him and made fun of the media for blindly accepting his tall tale. In 2002, Mark Evanier wrote, “Kaan’s claim upset Siegel and Shuster, and some of us did some phoning of press services and reporters and pretty well debunked the whole story.” Kaan quietly slipped back into the woodwork… for a while. About two decades later, Mayo Kaan emerged selling colorized prints of his Superman and once again reiterating his claims to have been the original Man of Steel! Again, DC issued denials but Kaan and family undoubtedly made quite a bit of money from less knowledgeable Superman fans. It’s easy to write the man off as a con artist, but if that were the case, how did he come to have pictures of himself looking like an early Superman cosplayer? Some speculated that perhaps he had actually modeled for the rotoscoped Fleischer cartoons. Rotoscoping required live action footage be shot to be animated over. If Kaan simply shot live footage to be animated, that would explain why his Superman costume wasn’t quite complete, or even quite all there. The rest would have COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

been added in the ink and paint department. But just as it looked like no one would ever know one way or another, a 1942 article turned up about Kaan as Superman! In it, he’s described as a lifeguard, a physical instructor, and a vaudevillian who, because of his resemblance to Superman, was helping sell war bonds locally in costume. His being a lifeguard even explains why there are kids around him in swimsuits in one photo. Armed with that and a subscription to Newspapers. com, I was able to come up with a couple more 1942 articles, including another Superman photo. Again, he’s described as just a local guy doing his part for the war effort. One Internet poster a few years back said he knew Kaan as his chiropractor and he had bragged to him on more than one occasion that he had posed for Superman in war bond ads — never for comics or movies. I also found a 1964 article which just casually described its subject as “the movies’ first Superman.” Was it the reporter’s mistake or did Kaan tell him this? And so it seems like the mystery of Mayo Kaan may at last be solved. He was a man who made a homemade Superman suit in order to promote war bond sales in and around his hometown in Massachusetts in 1942 before joining the Navy. Later, a reporter — accidentally or on purpose — referred to him as the original Superman and the story built from there. Whether or not he set out to bilk the public or just decided to take advantage of a once in a lifetime situation, he got his 15 minutes of fame… stretched out over a few decades.

This page: Artifacts of the colorful sideline of Mr. Mayo J. Kaan, who, as stated on his headstone at left, declared himself to be the "original Superman." At top is one of the color-tinted prints Kaan was selling to his admirers and above, a clipping from The Boston Globe, Nov. 20, 1942, edition. In that same year, a July 28th Globe column mentioned, "Kaan is such a perfect double for the cartoonist's conception of that miraculous thunderbolt that he has already been scouted by three major movie companies… each with the idea in mind of using him on the screen." 17

darrick patrick’s ten questions

Hembeck for President!

CBC features cross-pollinate as Our Man Fred answers queries from inquisitive Darrick by DARRICK PATRICK [Fred Hembeck is a professional artist/writer whose work has been seen in DC’s “Daily Planet” feature, Marvel Age, The Fantastic Four Roast, Fred Hembeck Destroys the Marvel Universe, Fred Hembeck Sells the Marvel Universe, etc. Image Comics released The Nearly Complete Essential Hembeck Archives Omnibus, which collects all of his Dateline:@$% comic strips from the Comics Buyers Guide. And, of course, Fred joins us with his Dateline feature in each issue of Comic Book Creator! — D.P.]

Above: Mr. Hembeck checks out his massive collection published by Image in 2008, The Nearly Complete Essential Hembeck Archives Omnibus. Below: Undated sketch by Fred of a masked Peter Parker, in his guise as the amazing superhero arachnid, Spider-Man!

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Spider-Man TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Darrick Patrick: What road did you take to being a professional artist? Fred Hembeck: I took a two-year advertising art and design course at the State University of New York at Farmingdale (the same course Len Wein graduated from several years earlier), and then transferred to SUNY at Buffalo for two years of communications design. I learned more useful stuff the first two years but, at the time, I was living at home. Two years and being 500 miles away was an education in and of itself! A lot of my cartooning was self-taught, though, simply because that sort of an education just wasn’t available to me at the time. The Kubert School opened right after I graduated… bad timing, huh? Darrick: Who are some of the people that greatly influenced you while growing up? Fred: My fifth-grade teacher, Mr. Erskine, was the one adult who really “got” me and encouraged my non-traditional art tendencies. I was into drawing the Universal monsters at the time. Stan Lee’s free-wheeling, self-depreciating editorial persona had a tremendous influence on me, as well — as did the art of such favorite cartoonists as Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby, Carmine Infantino, Curt Swan, Kurt Schaffenberger, Al Wiseman, John Stanley, Bob Bolling, Dan DeCarlo, and — a few years later — Jim Steranko and Neal Adams. Plus, the Beatles just bowled me over from the very first moment I saw them on their Ed Sullivan Show debut! Darrick: If you weren’t doing art for a living, what alternate career do you think you might have chosen? Fred: If I had any musical talent — and trust me, I don’t — I’d happily opt for rock star. Otherwise, though, I’ve got no clue — and here’s hoping I never have to find out! Darrick: Any words of advice for other individuals looking to make a career with their artistic abilities? Fred: Learn the basics. After that, add your own personality to the work. Try to improve with each piece you do. And just in case… marry rich! Darrick: How do you spend your time on a typical workday? Fred: My workdays are never typical! Some days I write, some days I pencil, some days I ink — and some days I do all three! I generally have the stereo crank-

ing or the TV on. Sometimes I even listen to old radio shows while I’m at the drawing board. The hours vary. Trips to the post office to mail off commissions sometimes takes up significant time. And, of course, there’s always kibitzing with daughter Julie and the missus! Darrick: What comic book character do you relate to most? Fred: Peter Parker from the original Lee-Ditko run, a fact driven home when I reread those classic stories in the Spider-Man Omnibus. I practically lived and breathed those very issues as they were first hitting the stands during my tender years — and during such an influential period as that, well, who wouldn’t identify with a sad sack like poor ol’ Pete? In rereading those tales, I’ve come to realize that in many ways, Spider-Man was clearly secondary to the trials and tribulations of the teen-aged Parker. Spidey got all the flashy scenes, true, but most of the emotional wallop provided by those stories — and, boy oh boy, there was plenty — came from following the misadventures of “as typical a teenager as had ever been seen in comics” up to that time. The post-Ditko Peter Parker, while still entertaining in his way, wasn’t quite nearly as relatable. Darrick: Outside of creating art, what are your other interests? Fred: Music! Rock music! And most especially, Beatles music! Plus, classic television comedy — Jack Benny, Dick Van Dyke, Mary Tyler Moore, Sgt. Bilko, and Leave It to Beaver, to name but a few examples. Darrick: If you were U.S. President for a term, what would be some of the things we could expect from you? Fred: Position papers issued in comics form, Stan Lee’s birthday made a national holiday, “Eight Days a Week” played in place of “Hail to the Chief,” and designating Captain America as the country’s official icon. Darrick: Tell us something about you most people don’t know. Fred: My all-time favorite newspaper strip is Mary Perkins, On Stage, by Leonard Starr. And — in the personal revelation department — I have a moderately-sized mole on my left calf that, as a young kid, I thought was way, way big, and thus was tremendously self-conscious about. But which (after I got over my skittishness about wearing shorts around age ten or so) nobody ever commented on! It was on my leg, true, but apparently it was also all in my head. Darrick: What is your oldest memory? Fred: Being carried by my mother from the second-floor apartment we lived in over to my grandmother’s house next door during a hurricane as trees were falling down behind us. I was probably three years old. My earliest comics memory was a Dick Tracy sequence in the New York Daily News, in which the sharp-nosed detective went up against a crime boss who was — no lie — a cigar-smoking baby with a wispy beard and moustache!?! That was just so odd it really captured my attention.

comics in the library

Illustrating the Classics

Our Man Arndt chats with the great P. Craig Russell about his adaptions of classic stories by RICHARD J. ARNDT

Classics Illustrated TM & © the respective copyright holder.

While chatting with writer/artist P. Craig Russell for another project, it occurred to both of us (or more likely, me alone as I suspect Russell himself was surely aware of it) that Mr. Russell was quite likely the artist and/or writer who’s done more in adapting books or operas into comics form than anyone else currently working. Just the sheer number of operas that Russell has placed in the comics form is staggering — The Magic Flute, Salome, Parsifal, Pelleas and Melisande, Ariane and Bluebeard, Wagner’s entire Ring Cycle, as well as bits and pieces of such work as Cavalleria Rustiacena, I Pagiacci, and other works. He’d done numerous volumes of Michael Moorcock’s Elric character, three volumes of Fairy Tales of Oscar Wilde, Lois Lowry’s The Giver, Nathaniel Hawthorne’s The Scarlet Letter, many of Rudyard Kipling’s Mowgli stories from The Jungle Books, short stories from the likes of H. P. Lovecraft, Clive Baker, Edgar Allan Poe, Ray Bradbury, and Cyrano de Bergerac, and, what is probably his best known adaptations — Neil Gaiman’s Coraline, The Graveyard Reader, American Gods, and Norse Mythology, as well as numerous short stories by the man, including one of my favorites, ”The Problem of Susan.” What work he hasn’t done solo has largely been with Russell serving as the adaptor/writer and layout artist on the various projects, allowing for a small host of talented artists to complete the books. Russell’s adaptations began fairly early in his career, starting in the mid-1970s with the first of his opera adaptations, while also inking Mowgli stories adapted and penciled by Gil Kane, before Russell did three of the later stories solo. His work on adaptations continues right up to the current day. All of this while he has continued to work in mainstream comics, when time and projects have allowed. Not only is this a remarkable achievement in sheer longevity but it has also been a boon to graphic novels being accepted today as a legitimate genre in their own right. Here are some excerpts from our chat on the subject: Richard J. Arndt: You’ve proven to be an adaptor who is quite faithful to the original book or story. At times, you’ve had hundreds of pages to adapt some of your projects. Still, how easy is it to fit a full novel such as The Scarlet Letter into 45 pages for Classics Illustrated? P. Craig Russell: Not easy! [laughs] There was a lot to cut out while still providing necessary plot points, some of which may have largely existed in the parts that were cut. It was also difficult transforming Poe’s 18-page story, “The Fall of the House of Usher,” into another 45-page graphic story. With something like that you have to include every usable bit you can find. RJA: So, it’s safe to say that it’s better when the story requirements dictate the adaptation’s length? PCR: Whenever possible, yes. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

RJA: Most writers who’ve been adapted into another entertainment form are very happy when the adaptation comes close to the original novel. However, Lois Lowery, author of The Giver, seemed a bit put off in the Q&A at the end of that adaptation. When asked if she thought about what fans might get out of the graphic novel that they may not have gotten out of the original book, she replied, “I don’t think fans/readers will necessarily get anything new from the graphic novel… it adheres so very closely to the original.” Did that sort of comment bother you? PCR: No. [laughs] I’d actually forgotten she’d said that. It’s true that most living writers like it when you’re relatively close to their actual storyline and intent. And why wouldn’t they? The film version of The Giver took considerable liberties with the original novel. Still, it’s possible that she was expecting to see some insights in the adaptation that would be different or cast a different light on certain parts of her book and, for her, at least, they weren’t there. Most of the living authors I’ve adapted seemed to have liked the adaptation. I don’t think her comments means she didn’t like the adaptation, only that readers may not get something new from it. That’s a fair opinion. RJA: True. You did several volumes of Michael Moorcock’s Elric of Melnibone character, scripted by Roy Thomas and illustrated by either you solo or with Michael Gilbert as co-artist, then leaving the character for a number of years before returning to do some more stories, including a homage story by Neil Gaiman. Was walking away from the character for a period of time due to your needing a temporary break from Elric? PCR: No. I wanted to do the scripts on my own and there was some resistance against that, which caused some bad feelings with Roy. I took the break until the publishers agreed to let me adapt the script on my own. Gil Kane or Jo Duffy had also written the Mowgli scripts that Kane initially penciled for Marvel, which I inked. Jo’s scripting credit was left off the fourth story. When it came time to do more of the Mowgli stories, I did full artwork on three more stories — ”The King’s Ankus,” “Red Dog,” and “Spring Running,” which were published by NBM. RJA: I loved your Mowgli adaptations. I wish you’d do all of them, including the poems, in a fat book. [laughs] I’d also like to see your takes on ‘Rikki-tikki-tavi’ and ‘The White Seal’. PCR: I don’t believe I know what “The White Seal” is. RJA: It’s a non-Mowgli Kipling story from the first Jungle Book. I just think you would do such a great job on an underwater story. Kind of like a comic-book Fantasia. What adaptations are you planning for or hoping for in the future? PCR: I’d like to do a solo adaptation of Neil Gaiman’s “Only the End of the World.” I’ve already done it once before, with Troy Nixey doing the finished art. I picked him to work with because his artwork was so completely different from my own at the time. I’ve got some ideas on how I’d like to tackle it. RJA: Thank you, Mr. Russell!

Top: P. Craig Russell wrote the adaptation of Poe’s classic and provided the layouts that were finished by Jay Geldolf. Classics Illustrated #14 [Sept. 1990]. Above: PCR did same for artist Jill Thompson [#6, Mar. 1990]. 19

second city comics guy

Mike Gold Is On First

Multifaceted Mike shares about starting First Comics, returning to DC, and other stuff Interview conducted by JON B. COOKE

Above: Back in CBC #10 [Fall 2015], Ye Ed wrote as definitive a history ever written on Stuart Gordon and Lenny Kleinfeld's three-part play, Warp. Below: What started First Comics was Mike Gold's dry run producing the Organic Theater one-shot,Weird Organic Tales, art by Joe Staton and Bruce Patterson, and words by Paul Kupperberg and Gold. Inset right: Panel from same.

Martha Thomases. Mark Hempel did one of our early covers. So that was a fun experience. The publisher… I don’t know why I love cockroach capitalists publishers so much. They eventually run out of money. But publishing is a stupid business anyway — always has been — and the only person making money at it was Bennett Cerf. But Video Action was great fun. It was like a two-year stretch for me as editor. Rick Oliver was my assistant editor. We had a good time. But, in the midst of all that, in 1980, I got involved with my friend, Stuart Gordon, who at the time was a theater director who went on to make great horror movies. He was the guy who co-wrote and directed Warp, as well as many other plays. And Stuart asked me to put together a comic book [Weird Organic Tales] for him as a fundraiser for his theatre group, and I did that. I got Joe Staton, Bruce Patterson, and Paul Kupperberg to be a part of that — they wrote and drew the thing — and we printed something in the neighborhood of 300,000 copies. It was an insert in The Chicago Reader, a very high circulation cultural weekly… boy, this is dusting off memories!… We had a great time but, for me, the idea was this was going to be a dry run for doing our own publishing. And that’s exactly what happened and that really was the birth of First Comics, in 1980. Stuart had just started up a revival of Warp, and very few people had seen the second episode of the play outside of Chicago. (At that time, only Washington had performed all three episodes.) The first episode had played on Broadway and it bombed, because they just weren’t ready for a three-part science fiction play. So nobody in the New York community saw the second or third parts, and the second was by far the best of the episodes… I mean, it was really enjoyable and the most

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Warp, Weird Organic Tales TM & © the respective copyright holder.

[Welp, the third time is the charm! Chicago boy Mike Gold is the first CBC interviewee to have a three-parter, but its not to indulge the gent; it’s just that he has so many different facets to his career! In part one, we discussed Mike’s boyhood growing up in the Windy City, working as press agent for the Chicago Seven defendants (for whom he helped produce Conspiracy Capers, an underground comic book), and his organizing and heading the National Runaway Switchboard. Our second segment looked at his first stint at DC Comics which culminated in the notorious “DC Implosion” of 1978 and, last we left him, Mike had returned to his beloved city. — Ye Ed.] Comic Book Creator: Mike, is this longest interview you’ve ever given? Mike Gold: I remember, like 1,000 years ago, I did an interview with Peter Sanderson and that seemed to last for days. CBC: Okay, Peter wins. I think we’re up to 1980. [chuckles] Mike: Forty-three years ago. CBC: So we’re at 1980, after the “DC Implosion.” So, where did you go? Mike: Home. I went back to Chicago. I was planning on leaving DC in August 1978, anyway. I took the job for two years. People back in Chicago were on my case to come back and the Implosion made it a lot easier. But, even if the Implosion hadn’t happened, I probably would have gotten back anyway, almost definitely. So, almost two years to the day, I went back to Chicago and was involved in several different projects and I was doing a lot of writing. I was asked to set up a home video magazine called Video Action, which was pretty cool at the time, because I was able to hire, as freelancers, a lot of my comics friends, and give them a chance to do a lot of writing about something that wasn’t directly comics-related. For instance, Steve Mitchell did a lot of writing for me and that’s where I met

Warp, Video Action TM & © the respective copyright holders.

co-writer of Warp [under the pen-name Bury St. Edmund]. So Rick went to New York and, after he talked with Paul at DC, he called me and said it went exactly as I had said it would go. I knew what would happen partially because I had worked there, I knew all the players, and I knew how they would respond, and it’s also because I had a lot of friends of DC — I had worked there for a few years — and they pretty much told me what was happening. So Rick was impressed that I knew all that and he was astonished that I’d hit nine out of ten points on my list. He just couldn’t believe it. I said, “When do you meet with Jim?” He said, “In a couple of hours, but all Jim said at Comic-Con was that he would beat DC’s offer. But DC didn’t offer much of a deal to beat.” So I said, “Go and listen to Jim, because you have a fiduciary responsibility. And, when you come back, we’ll sit down, talk, and we’ll make some decisions.” Rick flies back after these meetings and he was very frustrated. But not because they were bad deals, but because exciting. So we did a special performance of the second part for they just weren’t professional. They didn’t respect the property. the guests at Chicago Comic-Con. Now, the purpose behind that was, essentially was to get DC and Marvel interested in picking It was your typical comic book deal for 1980, which was: “Here’s a small check, we own everything.” And that’s not what up the rights to do the comic-book version. anybody was really interested in over on the Warp side of the I was working not with Stuart so much on that, although deal. So Rick comes back, he meets me at Video Action and clearly he was part of it, but with Rick Obadiah, who was the we commandeer an office, producer… you can see this is all coming together now… And and I spend the next two or I told Rick, “This is what’s going to happen: Paul Levitz [of DC Comics] is going to say, ‘We should talk after the play,’ and then three hours explaining exactly [Marvel’s] Jim Shooter is going to come up to you and say, ‘We how you set up a comic book publishing company, how the should talk.’ But Jim will suggest that you go and talk to Paul, direct market works, and how and then come back to him and Marvel would just offer more to put together a budget. And than whatever DC was offering.” you can’t really just produce Rick was vaguely impressed by my prediction. And we had one comic book. You need to maybe 50 or 60 writers and artists at the Chicago Comic-Con develop an engine to produce that year who showed up to see the play. And what happened with Paul and with Jim went exactly as I predicted. And, as Rick a comic book, and you can use that same engine for the same was preparing to go out to New York to talk with both publishmoney to produce several. And ers, I had given him a ten-point list of things to watch out for we pretty much decided to go when negotiating. Rick looks at this list and says, “These are ridiculous. These are professional people in professional organi- that route. That was the birth zation.” And I said, “Yes, but the comic book industry itself is not of First Comics right there. Rick continued talking what you think of as fiducially professional.” He says, “No, this can’t be. These people have been in business for decades. They with Jim and Paul because he had a responsibility to can’t operate like that.” And I said, “Well, okay. Have fun.” do so, but it really didn’t go Then I told Rick right before he left, “We can do this anywhere in areas that made ourselves.” He said, “No, we should leave it to the pros.” I said sense on the business level. okay but explained to him how we can we could set up our Particularly when it came to own publishing operation. And he was interested but, you know, that really wasn’t what he was in it for. He had a fiduciary ownership and control of the property, which was a preexistresponsibility to Stuart and to Lenny Kleinfeld, who was the COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

Above: Mike Gold shed his counter-culture look in the go-go ’80s, as seen in this pic from Fandom's Forum #8 [Sept. 1982]. Inset left: In the late ’70s, Neal Adams returned to draw items for a Warp revival, including this program cover. Below: In the early ’80s, Gold gathered some comics compatriots to produce Video Action magazine, a short-lived but still highly-regarded effort.

look like Marvel and DC at first — we were trying to improve on that look, because that’s what you do to compete and to look like you know what you’re doing — and also, World Color had the distribution network because they printed everybody else’s stuff. So we were there for a couple of years, we found out that they’re kind of playing fast and loose with their pricing. CBC: How did you find that out? Mike: It’s an interesting story and, to tell you the truth, nobody has asked me that before, so you’ve got information revealed for the first time in 40 years! We were at Archie Comics — Rick, me, and our attorney — and we’re talking about the idea of reprinting of First Comics stuff for the newsstand. I didn’t think that was going to go anywhere because they were already tied to the Comics Code, and we really weren’t producing material that the Comics Code would approve of. Although I would have killed to do a Betty & Veronica/American Flagg crossover! [laughter] But, in those days, that wasn’t going to happen. I think Chaykin would have wanted to do it, too, so that could have been fun. So we’re going over the numbers, you know, they’re making offers and we’re talking business, and stuff. And we realized that they were paying a lot less to get printed at World Color than we were, even if you break it down on a volume basis. And then when we started to do some investigating later, the way lawyers do, and we discovered that — I guess the phrase “ripped off” was valid. And ultimately we wound up suing them and that didn’t get resolved for years, until after I left the company, and it became very personal for a lot of the attorneys involved, which always happens. Which just reaffirms every cynical bone in my body — and my body’s got a lot of cynical bones! That lawsuit had a life of its own. We had a brilliant antitrust lawyer and he thought we should bring Marvel in on that lawsuit — sue Marvel, as well — because they were one of the direct beneficiaries of this arrangement. So we did that. I wasn’t really

Warp TM & © the respective copyright holder. Jon Sable TM & © Mike Grell. American Flagg TM & © Howard V. Chaykin.

This page: First Comics made an impact in fandom, producing comics titles with the same professionalism as the Big Two, but with content far more sophisticated. At top is Frank Brunner's Warp #1 [Mar. 1983]; below is a vignette of Mike Grell's Jon Sable and inset right is Howard Chaykin's American Flagg.

ing property that, by this point in time, had toured a number of major cities in America, and then revived in Chicago and had a couple-of-year runs in Chicago. It was already established. So I came up with this philosophy concept: put together a line, start off with Warp, make it look like a traditional comic book, but with top talent, and make it better. Frank Brunner drew it and he got us a lot of attention, because he had just very loudly and publicly quit working for Marvel Comics, because he was pissed at the way they had operated. So, bringing Frank in would get us a lot of publicity and also give us a very, very gifted artist. I suggested we bring Joe Staton in as art director and Bruce Patterson as production manager, both of whom had worked on Weird Organic Tales, and maybe we can get the rights to E-Man from Charlton, which we did on behalf of Joe. Nick Cuti was going to be part of that deal, but he was on staff at DC and they wouldn’t let him be involved, which is sort of understandable and I don’t think it really was worth it for Nick to put everything on the line and quit his job at DC. So we brought Marty Pasko in as writer, and Mike Barr wrote a few. So the E-Man revival with Joe Staton brought us even more publicity. The third bit was to take a very well-established A-lister, in this case Mike Grell, and have him create something entirely new, which in this case was Jon Sable, Freelance. And we also picked up his Starslayer as a lead talent book, where we brought in people like John Ostrander, Timothy Truman, and Hilary Barta to do that book, but it was still Mike Grell’s creation. So we had Starslayer; Jon Sable, Freelance… and then we brought in another A-lister to do a book that would just be really mind-expanding, something that the comic business in America certainly had never seen before. And that was Howard Chaykin’s American Flagg. We went on from there, and we picked up Nexus and Badger because Capital Comics went out of business and I knew Mike Baron, and those were very good properties, and then Whisper by Steven Grant. We kept on expanding the company and the rest might be a fart in a blizzard [chuckles] but, at the time, we were making comics history. CBC: You said First Comics needed to look as professional as DC and Marvel at the time. And you choose their printer, World Color in Sparta, to initially print your comics…? Mike: Yes, there weren’t a lot of options in those days, but that changed pretty rapidly as the direct sales market became more viable. A lot of printers out there thought that the comics business was expanding, which is true in that the number of publishers were expanding, but circulation wasn’t, as the Implosion proved. There’s certain to be a lot of competition. We wanted our comics to not only

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All characters TM & © their respective copyright holders.

happy about adding Marvel to it because they weren’t really maliciously part of the beneficiary. But you know, lawyers say that’s what you have to do, so that’s what we did. By this time, I’d left First Comics and I was back in New York, working for DC. The Marvel lawyer, who wasn’t an experienced lawyer, saw this all as part of some vast conspiracy. He thought it was weird that I was at DC now. And Eddie Shukin, who was Marvel’s circulation director, was over at DC by that point. And the Marvel lawyer saw this all as some kind of massive conspiracy. So my four-day deposition was really amusing because there was no conspiracy. So they were asking me all kinds of questions that were completely irrelevant. They got angry when my responses were indicative of how irrelevant their questions were. But we had a good time nonetheless and I got some good meals on the job and a free trip back home. [laughs] So I had a good time. I went back to New York and continue to pound out The Question and Wasteland and the other things I was doing… CBC: So how was the lawsuit resolved? Mike: Ultimately, they dropped Marvel from the suit, because it just made no sense. And that would have happened a lot earlier if the First lawyer was paying more attention, to put it politely. I think that his big problem was, like a couple years earlier with Rick Obadiah, he thought that the comic book business worked by normal business rules. [Jon laughs] All the questions that they asked and posited were Harvard Business School questions in an area where, you know, gonifs have been running the farm forever. Ultimately, Marvel stopped taking it so seriously, and we were able to drop them from suit (and when I say “we,” I was no longer part of this and really wasn’t part of this for quite some time… other than having to give that deposition). World Color and First settled. I don’t know if I ever knew the terms, but I think First was pretty happy about it and World Color was getting out of business anyway. They were moving up to Canada. Sparta, Illinois, was literally out in the middle of pretty much nowhere. I went to school around there, so I know how nowhere it was. It was a very old facility and it was very hard for them, I think, to continue to make a profit. o they were pretty much slowly phasing on the comics business anyway. So I think it ended with everybody just not giving a f*ck. CBC: When Marvel was brought on as a defendant, they were accused of flooding the market to drown the competition. I just read a newspaper article, which discussed Atlas/Seaboard and specifically mentioned Larry Lieber and Martin Goodman. And you were quoted as saying, “Look, if Stan does that to his own brother and his uncle, well, you know…” That’s really interesting, to bring up Atlas/Seaboard, which, by that time, was six or COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

seven years dead… What hasn’t been mentioned yet is Marvel’s predilection to flood the newsstands whenever competition rose up. Was that really a part of the suit? Mike: Oh, absolutely. But DC did it as well, and Paul was a master of that though, at Marvel, it was much more blatant, because they would always bring back the same titles that always failed repeatedly. Pretty much whenever Marvel would relaunch Kull the Conqueror you knew that they were getting competition from somebody. But there are other titles, too. I mean, it’s good to give a lot of creators work, but the whole idea of flooding the newsstands is a very old marketing philosophy that may very well have been mastered in the ’40s and ’50s by Marty Goodwin. Comics historians can fight over this but, you know, comics historians like yourself will fight over anything, because there’s no rules; there’s no gravity to suck everybody back to reality. [chuckles] That was kind of bizarre. What we realized was that they were scared that we would somehow go newsstand. They didn’t want us under their skin. And I could never quite figure out why because why the hell would you want to go into a business where you have to print three or four times as many — in this case comic books — as you were going to sell. Essentially,

Above: Joe Staton, then art director for First Comics, may have recently retired from cartooning, but he's still willing to help Ye Ed when we were looking for a pic of this circa 1983 First promo poster! Thanks to one of our favorite comic book cartoonists for digging this gem out of his closet! Below: World Color Press, of Sparta, Illinois, printer of mainstream comic books, put on their huge "Magazineland" event in 1977, a celebration which included a oneshot comic book and this T-shirt!

has kept Archie thriving. To this day, actually, they’re still doing a lot of those digest comics. And that’s, probably the major source of American non-direct market sales, but they own those spaces; they literally buy those spaces. CBC: What was Rick Obadiah like? Can you share any anecdotes about him? Mike: I’ve had a strange relationship with Rick. I don’t think we ever really disliked each other, but we 24

did disagree a lot about how to do business. His background was theatrical, as a producer, and that was probably an even more surreal neighborhood to work in than comics. But he was a nice guy, a good human being. But I don’t want to say he was not that much as a businessman; he just wasn’t in the same business. Nobody is in the same business as those of us who are in the comics. Comics fandom was originally based upon nostalgia and comics publishing is based upon nostalgia, so it’s a very surreal world. Rick was a nice guy and, even though I was on the short end of almost every board of directors’ vote in terms of priorities as to who got paid… When all the distributors started going out of business, like most of the publishers who were not Marvel or DC, we’re getting our payments from the distributors very slowly, if at all, and when they finally went out of business, that money never came in. So therefore there was an enormous amount of strain on what was called in the day, “independent comics publishers” (a term I never liked because they even defined Disney Comics as independent… give me a break!) But it was difficult because we had five people on our board of directors, none of whom were really experienced business people. In terms of what we consider real-world business people, there are a couple of Harvard MBAs there, and they were good people, but the board prioritized paying the printers and engravers before the talent. And I took the opposite position: without talent, you have nothing to sell. Printers and engravers are used to cutting deals. They will negotiate and they understand things like your distributors going out of business because that’s the history of magazine publishing. That’s how Marvel got tied up with Independent News for all those years. So Rick and I disagreed about that. And almost all of those board votes were three to two, with me being on the short side. The other person who voted with me was Rick Felber, who was our business manager. So Rick Felber actually quits, he left, and so now the board votes were like three to one against. And not only are these people, upon whom we were dependent for our material to publish, being stiffed… “stiffed” implies malice, but there was no malice. But the freelancers weren’t getting paid on time, they were being paid late and, as time went on, they were being paid later and later. And I wanted to change that, and I was incapable of doing so. And ultimately, I just got frustrated and I took a leave of absence. And then I left for a vacation in national forests up by the Wisconsin-Northern Michigan border, really beautiful. I went out there for two weeks and just chilled out and came back. When I came home, I checked my answering machine, and I had seven job offers on that answering machine, which was very nice, very reassuring. It’s like, “Oh, they like me!” But one of them was repeated and that was from Dick Giordano. So I flew out to New York… actually, to Connecticut, to discuss that with him. And ultimately what Dick offered me was the same deal DC Comics offered him when he was at Charlton Comics. So I left First. CBC: Were you surprised that Rick Obadiah got into the undertaker business? I remember contacting him at his business, the Star Legacy Funeral Network. Mike: [Laughs] You phrased that marvelously. That’s very true. Rick and I, whatever differences we may have had faded over the course of time because we’re debating business philosophy, and after some time, we actually resumed our friendship. I was literally on my way to have a meal with him in Wisconsin, where he was living. I was driving out from Connecticut — I had work to do in Chicago — when he died. That was tough. It was even tougher because he died in a gym… CBC: Right on the treadmill… #30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

E-Man TM & © Joe Staton T. Staton. Rick Obadiah photo (slightly retouched by Ye Ed) courtesy of and © Jackie Estrada. Used with permission.

This spread: First Comics decided to revive Charlton's E-Man, which ran for 25 issues (plus a reprint series). Above is #1 [Apr. 1983], art by Joe Staton. Below is Rick Obadiah in a 1983 pic taken by Jackie Estrada. First Comics logo designed by Staton and polished by Ken Bruzenak. Next page has First Comics promo piece (top) and a much more recent rendering of E-Man, Nova, and the gang, both by Joe Staton.

that means you’re paying four times what you should be paying for printing (assuming you’re getting a fair price, which was a whole different story, anyway). So newsstands weren’t really very attractive to me and, quite frankly, there was no future in the newsstands, as the industry quickly found out. The mom-and-pop stores, the candy stores, the newsstands… they were all gone. Marvel, DC, and Archie would have realized that a lot earlier if they weren’t based in New York City. Because New York City was the last locality to have a lot of newsstands, candy stores, and those types of outlets. But the rest of the country had these things called shopping malls. And, in a shopping mall, rent is based upon average square-foot earnings, which is why the comics industry created those huge spinner racks, because it was a one-square-foot rack with a hell of logic and comics types. So the old newsstand distribution was a dying model, and that was very clear to me. I mean, I’m amazed it lasted anywhere as long as it did. But it lasted at Barnes & Noble and Borders bookstores with really great magazine sections. Now we barely have magazines and paperbacks as we knew them as kids — you know, with all those lurid, McGinnis covers and stuff, those are gone. The distribution method was exactly the same as comic books and magazines. Things like TV Guide bought their space in supermarkets and Archie, to their credit — and I mean this with enormous respect — they bought space next to TV Guide at the supermarket checkouts for their digest comics. And that’s what

All characters TM & © their respective copyright holders.

Mike: On the treadmill, which certainly meets the criteria for irony. But between First and that unfortunate experience, he was part of a company that… I don’t know how to phrase this… took dead bodies and would compress them into diamonds or send the ashes out into outer space. He was part of the Jimmy Doohan deal… I think there was this place of struggling Atlantis-type of an operation down around Florida. You know, where you can be part of like these coral reefs, which has both a wonderful business to go into and just totally bizarre, and very much Rick. I absolutely loved it. If you read that Jimmy Doohan’s ashes (or some of his ashes) were going out in outer space and think, “Wow, that’s pretty cool.” And Rick was one of those responsible for putting all that together. I don’t think I ever thought of him as an undertaker. Because it really wasn’t “under taking.” But yeah, he was! It was absolutely beautiful. And totally bizarre. And perfectly in keeping for a guy who is a theatrical producer, comic book publisher, and high society bon vivant. It was just weird! I loved it. I miss Rick. And that will surprise some people who hate Rick because they consider him the guy who stiffed them for money. And that’s true, he was part of that. There were all those board decisions that went against me. But he had this childlike innocence. CBC: Were you happy with the line as it was coming out? Were you happy with the development of Warp? If I remember correctly, I talked to Stuart and he wasn’t thrilled. Mike: No, Stuart wasn’t thrilled. Mostly it was Lenny who was angry and he was a very touchy guy. And I don’t blame him. He and Stuart created this whole thing. But in order for Warp to continue, we had to go beyond adapting the original plays. And, in order to do that, we had to change the ending. Lenny and Stuart were not thrilled about that story about that, but their problems were really with Rick, in his fiduciary role in Dramatic License, the company the three of them had formed to license Warp. I think they thought that Rick’s decisions as a comic book publisher were not in the best interests of the decisions he should have made for Dramatic License. And whereas I’m not intimate with all that, I don’t think that that was the case, although it kind of turned out that way from Lenny and Stuart’s perspective. But they really developed a hatred for Rick that I thought was beyond what the situation warranted by quite some distance, but it’s a personal thing. I do respect that, as COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

a creator myself, and a person who’s worked with some of the best creators in the comics business. I think I have an understanding of the attitude that goes into that. And so I totally understand where Stuart and Lenny were coming from. CBC: How hard did you try to get Neal Adams to do work? Mike: Not very. Rick, Joe, and I went out to see Neal because, quite frankly, while I think that Neal had earned the right of first refusal, I had no confidence that Neal would be able to make the deadlines of a monthly book. And, fortunately, nor did Neal. [chuckles] He was really right on top of that. So we had this lovely conversation but, you know, I don’t think any of us really were surprised when it turned out that not only was he not interested in doing it, but we weren’t interested anyway. Because for any publisher, you know — Neal Adams! — that would be a big deal, but you’ve got to meet your deadlines. You’ve got to produce the books and, during my tenure at First Comics, while I was on staff, we never missed the ship dates. CBC: Did you did you think about Neal for the covers? Mike: I don’t recall that ever coming up. At the time, I was a big believer in whoever draws the book’s interior should be the artist who draws the cover. Sort of a truth in advertising, and lord knows, if you have a Frank Brunner book, you should have a Frank Brunner cover. CBC: Were you happy with the line as it was? Mike: Very much so. CBC: Were you making a lot of money? Was the line making a lot of money? Mike: Oh, that’s two different questions. Was I making a lot of money? No. CBC: Did the line make money? Mike: We were doing fine as long as the distributors were paying us. There were some decisions that could have been made, you know, in terms of when to get off of a project and when to stop doing it. Could First Comics ever afford taking a risk like Mars? When we decided to do Mars, we could, but by the time Mars came out, the distribution wars were in full throttle and payments were being delayed. So projects with Mars became less viable. I’m still incredibly proud that we did Mars, you know, incredibly proud. And it’s very hard not to be proud of projects like American Flagg and Sable. So, you know, I’m happy with the output. I think that we made some mistakes with E-Man. But the situation was not as dramatic as some people felt at the time. Because some thought that we were dumping on Chris Claremont The funny thing is, in 25

Above: Howard Victor Chaykin's American Flagg, published by First Comics, was a definite highlight of the 1980s' comic book scene, with smart, funny, and beautifully drawn stories through the 50 issues of its initial run. This is HVC's cover for the debut issue, #1 [Oct. 1983]. After pointing out the great lettering and logo work of Ken Bruzenak, The Slings & Arrows Comic Guide [2003] gushed, "On the basis of the first two years of this series, American Flagg deserves to be measured against titles like Watchmen as a highpoint of American comics." Below: Nifty artwork by Bruce Patterson graces this First house ad trumpeting Warp #6 [Sept. 1983], reproduced here from the original artwork.

few confidants when we put First Comics together. I knew he can keep a secret. And I would run ideas past him and we’d had these wonderful conversations. Of course, in the back of my mind, I was hoping that maybe somehow I could entice Howard to come back into comics and create something, because in addition to our being friends, I’m a fan. I think Howard is one of the most remarkable talents this industry has ever seen. Ultimately, he got excited enough by what we were doing to pitch American Flagg. And that was probably one of the most the one of the fastest green lights I’ve ever seen in my whole life. It’s like, “Oh, you want to do that? Great! You’re going to open up with a Sherman tank made out of chopped liver and a bar mitzvah? Wonderful! So let’s do that!” And I think that one scene, just so absurd and so over the top — and yet so relevant from a storytelling standpoint — that it defined First Comics. CBC: And then, there was First’s regularity. You guys were just so steady. Everything came out like clockwork. There were no late books. You guys were a machine. Mike: Yeah, well, we had a great staff. In addition to Joe, Rick Oliver, and Bruce Patterson, we had Doug Rice. We had a very good crew, so dedicated, and they all had a great sense of humor, which you really needed to produce comic books are about Sherman tanks made out of chopped liver. [laughs] We all shared a certain worldview. In other words, we’re just a bunch of old hippies. And I’m proud of it. I’m also very pleased to note that Dick Giordano understood what we were doing and wanted to bring that into DC Comics. I’m not surprised that Dick understood what we were doing; I’m surprised that he thought he might be able to bring that to DC. And by bringing me in, and by bringing in most — just about all — the talent that I’ve worked with at First, which was, of course, the Charlton-Giordano role model. We’re able to bring that type of energy into DC at a time when that’s what the DC was all about. It was one of the few periods in DC’s history when they were truly about that. There was Watchmen, there was The Dark Knight Returns, you know, and using those examples to base our approach on. We revived Green Arrow, with The Longbow Hunters, and did The Question and Wastelands, and those are very much projects that were cut from the same cloth that I was cutting up over at First Comics, but hopefully, you know, more progressive, because DC had deeper pockets. When Giordano offered me the job, I said, “You know, I have immense creative freedom at First Comics and I know I’m not going that have that at DC.” But he says, “Well, you’re going to get a lot more freedom than you thought you would. But 100%? No, that’s not going to happen. It’s corporate America.” And we both understood that. I didn’t have a problem with that. He said, “I’ll tell you one thing, though: we pay #30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

American Flagg TM & © Howard V. Chaykin. Warp TM & © the respective copyright holder.

that the two-issue story where we were making fun of The X-Men — and therefore, Chris and John [Byrne] — Chris actually read that issue while he was in our offices, because he had relatives in Chicago. Chris was fine with it, and I admire and respect Chris for that, actually, because not everybody likes being made fun of. I don’t think we were very vicious about it, but nonetheless…. E-Man in the ’70s, under Nick and Joe, was a whimsical comic in the mode of, you know, C.C. Beck’s Captain Marvel and Jack Cole’s Plastic Man. But, in the 1980s, we were living in a somewhat different society and all of us aging hippies were, you know, we had a sarcastic streak, so maybe we were a little too aggressive with that. It did revert slowly when Joe and Hilary Staton started writing it themselves. It did became more like it used to be, as it was such a Nick Cuti/Joe Staton project — and I’m not putting Marty Pasko or Mike Barr down — but without Nick’s sensibilities I don’t think we were replicating the charm E-Man had in the ’70s. I think we were a near miss on that one. But the rest of the books… Starslayer was wonderful because we really did get some major new talent out of that deal. I mean, by today’s standards, it was astronomical! Plus we got Grimjack out of that deal! So it may not have been the most exciting comic book ever published, because it was by new talent, but… that Golden Moby story [Starslayer #22, Nov. 1984] is just so bizarre that it’s actually good! Nonetheless, it fulfilled its function. And I think that the original lineup for First Comics, I’m proud of that. CBC: And you also had an unabashed masterpiece at the time, if you ask me, and that was American Flagg. Mike: Oh, yeah. Well, the cool part about Flagg for me personally… Howard and I have been friends since 1976 — and we are to this very day — and Howard had left the comics industry, much like Frank Brunner, but I don’t think Howard was as angry about it as Frank. Howard was out there doing his Hollywood stuff and painting stuff, and all that. And because he was on have the outside of the business, he became one of my very

Wasteland, The Question TM & © DC Comics.

people on time.” (Which, by the way, is no longer true.) But my philosophy, then and now, is this if you pay the talent on time, you’ll get better work. You know, because they’re not going to have to be so worried about paying their bills, they can do the work. And they can feel more creative in the process, because they’re not fighting for their lives to get paid. So these were very, very compelling and very enticing arguments. And, quite frankly, DC did give me enormous latitude. Nothing like The Question had been published by DC before. Nothing like Wasteland and been published by anybody before… or since, I think. It really incorporated a lot of sort of underground comix types of values. You know, guys like Greg Irons, Rand Holmes, and people like that. And to be able to bring some of that energy into DC and to make it just so edgy. (“Edgy” is normally a phrase I am loathe to use, but it totally applies to Wasteland.) That was great. And I was so fortunate. CBC: Did I read that you were involved in the genesis of Sable? Mike: Oh, yeah. Sure. Obviously, Mike Grell had this whole concept in mind, but because he pitched it in my apartment, in Evanston, Illinois, at about two in the morning. And that’s exactly when and how we developed this. Knowing the talents you’re working with is critical for them, to really understand what turns them on and what their interests are is really critical. Because Mike had the reputation for doing super-heroes and for doing fantasy work — The Warlord — and not from doing hard-edged, James Bondian type of Jon Sable story. But I knew that Mike could do that. Mike was interested in that type of story. Mike knew his stuff. It’s arguable that Mike actually knows more people who worked for the CIA than I do. One of theses days, he and I are going to have that conversation. But Jon Sable was based upon reality in that the types of stories that we did were real, in their essence. It was a real-world thing, which was not what Mike was associated with prior to Jon Sable. After that, of course, Green Arrow and all his subsequent work, you know, that’s really the main part of his reputation these days. But before that, no, it was, “What the hell is Mike Grell doing with this guy with a gun?” And that was a big deal. CBC: Sable actually got the attention of Hollywood, correct? COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

Mike: It did. We had a TV show based on it. It was terrible series. It did put me in proximity of Gene Simmons, which was a very weird experience — and a wonderful experience — because Gene was originally cast as Sable in the TV show, but that did not work out. But Gene is a huge comic fan. He used to write for Marv Wolfman’s fanzines, along with a guy named Stephen King, and he really wanted to do Sable, but not play the lead role, because in the four days he played Sable, he understood that he was not good in the part, but he loved the character, he loved the story, and he really wanted to have some role in the show. You know, there is something kind of cool about going into a deli in New York with Gene Simmons, seeing Robert Plant at that deli, and joining Robert Plant for lunch. There’s always these surreal parts of my life. Eating a corned beef sandwich with Gene Simmons and Robert Plant. [chuckles] CBC: That’s pretty cool. You went to DC in January of 1986, the beginning of the year, I would argue (and I’m not the only one, for sure) that was certainly one of the greatest years in comics history. There was Maus, Love and Rockets… and DC was publishing The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen. Did it feel special to be there at that time? Mike: Yes. And I’ll tell you something — and this is very egotistical, but not surprising that I would make an egotistical comment — it was because of the work that my friends and I and other folks had been doing for the previous couple of years. It was building upon that. It was creating that new environment. I mean, the person probably most responsible for that would be Phil Seuling for creating the whole direct market thing, which created opportunities that some of us were able to take advantage of, to push the boundaries of American storytelling. I may have told you this story and I have mentioned it elsewhere before: The roots

Above: Covers of the first three issues of the Mike Gold-edited horror series, Wasteland, which ran for 18 issues between 1987–89, a fondly-recalled run featuring the work of a steady stable of creators, which included writers John Ostrander and Del Close, and artists George Freeman, Don Simpson, William Messsner-Loebs, and David Lloyd. Below: Another Gold-edited critical success was the excellent series written by Dennis O'Neil and drawn by Denys Cowan, The Question, which ran 36 issues between 1987–90.

Above: The up-and-coming muck-raking Comics Journal turned DC publicity back onto itself with its snarky headline in TCJ #41 [Aug. 1978], which forever named the debacle that resulted in two volumes of Cancelled Comics Cavalcade, lots of folks being laid off, and a 40% cut of its publishing output.

Above: Penciler Denys Cowan and finisher Bill Sienkiewicz's spectacular poster promoting the 1988 "Fables" story arc in Detective Comics Annual #1, Green Arrow Annual #1, and The Question Annual #1. Below: Gold's DC return brought Mike Grell back into the fold, with the creator's Green Arrow ’89 revival in The Longbow Hunters mini-series.

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All characters TM & © DC Comics, Inc.

of First Comics, which for me is the roots of the progress we made in the comics in the 1980s, started for me in Montreal (and I’m trying to remember exactly what year it was). I was at a Woolworth’s in Montreal, and it was New Year’s Eve, and I was in their graphic novel department. Now, nobody used the phrase “graphic novel” in those days, but they had these racks with French comics, and I was familiar with some of the creators, seeing them their work in books, you know, you know, Moebius, etc. And I’m looking through all this stuff, the first time I’ve ever seen literally dozens and dozens of examples, and thinking, “Why can’t we do stuff like this?” Not necessarily the same stuff. But, you know, so far beyond what American comics were all about. Comics are an American-created medium, in many ways (but not all, I know). But here are people who are just taking comics so much further down the road and I wanted to do that, and that’s the philosophy, the attitude that I brought to First Comics. And I kept that attitude with me when I went back in DC Comics, I really wanted to push those boundaries, to make it more of a medium that, to a certain extent, we had some of that in the past. There was a wide variety of comics being published in the ’40s and ’50s — you had your Will Eisners and Alex Toths, and certainly EC Comics — but, by the early 1980s, we had just become this super-hero house, and they weren’t doing much with super-heroes, other than the same old thing. There were

some great super-hero stories and people like Jim Steranko just rewrote the book, but I want to keep pushing even further. And what made that easy was that some of my friends were really good at doing that. So I could bring in my friends to do those types of stories and we could just help push those boundaries. And by no means do I wish to take credit for that entire movement, because so many other gifted people were involved at different publishing houses. So, to Giordano’s credit, he wanted to bring that to DC. It was also a good way to compete with Marvel because, in those days, all Marvel could do — and they did a brilliant job and nobody ever did a better job at it than Marvel — was produce Marvel super-hero comics (and, lord knows, that’s what saved Hollywood during covid). But to compete with Marvel was something DC had been trying to do ever since the day Marvel got their own distribution deal with Curtis [in 1968], but the answer was not to imitate Marvel, which is what they’d been trying to do for years, but to move those boundaries and go further, to do something relevant for the time (even though nobody knows what’s relevant for the time). You know, that’s always a retroactive decision. “Wow, look at that! In 1986, you were doing all these different things.” That’s true, we were. But that’s how DC was able to compete with Marvel and, for the first time in decades, DC actually started outselling Marvel on a line average basis. CBC: You first came to the fore working with the Chicago Seven, and then you got your most widest national exposure with you running the National Runaway Switchboard. Mike: That’s possible. CBC: You also helped the industry by co-founding the Chicago Comic-Con. There’s this streak in your history of “doing good.” Does that apply to the comics themselves at all? Do you see that? Do you see a connection with what you’ve done, to benefit society at large? And what you were doing with comics? Mike: Wow. First of all, thank you very much for phrasing it that way and for seeing it that way. That is one of the most enormous compliments I’ve ever been given. So, thank you. Beyond that, I blame it all on Superman. I grew up reading comics and comics in those days had very strict values on what it is to do good, on those Jack Schiff [public service] pages in DC comics, about brotherhood and all of that. And obviously, it had some sort of impact on me as it did the rest of society. But comics were much more — god, this is a bad phrase — black and white in terms of good and evil. And I knew we needed more good, and not to fix anything, but just as human beings. So I was attracted to the political world in terms of societal change. And, you know, I was a political activist since I was 15. And my social service work at the runaway and drug abuse programs was, to me, is a consistent part of all my other efforts. It’s all built on the same model, and that model was created when I was a small child reading comic books — and probably watching The Bowery Boys. I’m serious! I think I got some of those values out of those movies that were shown early on Saturday mornings. You know, the Flash Gordon serials, that sort of film, that shaped my values quite a bit. And I’ve tried to hold on to those values, whatever it is that I’ve done, which to me seems very natural. I realize that when you explain it to people, it’s like, “What the hell are you talking about? How you should get from political activism to comic books? How do you bridge that gap? How do you go from a runaway program to E-Man? But, to me, it’s all linear, it’s all part of my life. I recognize that not everybody goes through that process. But that’s largely because I’m an ornery bastard, with a strong sense of right and wrong. I try

All © the respective copyright holders.

not to be self-righteous about it, particularly the older I get, because you realize that the world is nowhere near as black and white — sorry, Steve Ditko — as we thought it was when we were kids. You know, “There’s right and there’s wrong.” There’s a lot in between those two. Essentially, most of us know what’s right, except for those people who go into politics, but the rest of us know what’s right. And you keep your eye on that. That’s what you do. CBC: Would you would you have liked to have been offered the position of publisher? Mike: No, I don’t think so, because it’s a less creative role. CBC: The reason I asked that is that there’s a reason you’re hired for promotion, a reason that you’re valued for certain business aspects, but you also have a real affinity for how to deal with creative people to get their best creative work. Obviously, you were fighting for the creators in those First Comics board meetings. No offense, you’re not renowned as a writer, but better known as an editor. You’ve got vision that would seem, in some ways, being a progressive publisher might be a natural fit. But you just never thought about being a publisher, never thought about going for? Mike: No, I love the catalytic role that I’ve played as an editor and, quite frankly, all my other roles. As a broadcaster, it’s the same thing. I love working with creative people, helping them bring out the best they have to communicate stories and concepts and philosophies that maybe would have a hard time being communicated in other ways. And I get to be involved in dozens of different projects pretty much at the same time, which is wonderful for a guy with a short attention span. But that catalytic role is what turns me on as a professional. Absolutely. I’m proud of my writing, but it’s non-fiction writing, and I enjoy that and I would love to do more of it. And I probably could and should now that I have the time to do it… I really should. But that catalytic role is such a turn-on in being able to sit down, work, talk and, create with the people that I’ve had the privilege of working with. You know, Jon, I shared an office with Denny O’Neill for three years, and that’s not a privilege that is extended to most people. You know, I, I got a chance to work to spend decades working with guys like John Ostrander, who had always wanted to do comics and had written for the stage and was a storyteller, but we were able to do very interesting, very edgy, very original stuff. And I take pride in the fact that you know, I help kick-start all that for John. That list goes on and on and on. Even people who might politically differ from me. (I’m so far to the left, that there’s a lot on the right that I agree with; politics is not left and right; it’s a circle, actually a three-dimensional circle. It’s a bubble.) So I know I come off very leftist, though some of my leftist friends will disagree with me on that. I think it’s all about my short attention span. That’s the secret to my life. CBC: Look! Squirrel! [laughs] Mike: Right! Yes, exactly! “What is that squirrel doing?” [laughter] CBC: When I think about Wasteland and The Question, and think about your impact of DC, am I wrong to catch a whiff of the Windy City? That there’s something uniquely Chicago about what you brought into comics? COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

Mike: That may very well be true. That’s an interesting observation. There was a line that in The West Wing where Oliver Platt, who played the president’s lawyer — a great actor — and his character is from Chicago and he’s making all of these Chicago observations in the show. And he’s told, “Well, you have that attitude because you’re from Chicago. That’s just the way you people think.” And I believe that that’s true (though I don’t know if that’s still true). I’m very happy with my friends and acquaintances from Chicago. I love going back home and I’m proud to still be part of that comics community. They have these lunches, and when I’m in town, I join them. And these wonderful brains are sitting around this table, Jim Wisniewski, Hilary Barta, Alex Ross, Alan Weiss… just some wonderful, wonderful people. And we do have this sort of meat-and-potatoes attitude towards the world, and the phrase throughout the creative communities in Chicago is, “Chicago is a great place to have come from.” We carry bits, chunks, in some cases, truckloads full of that Chicago philosophy, but there are characters in Chicago history, “Yellow Kid” Weil, Slim Brundage, even Al Capone! People who are unique and maybe not above reproach, but are real characters and have done in many cases, some real good in terms of furthering our culture and definitely in terms of furthering our survival. And yeah, I think that’s equal to the influence that Superman and the Bowery Boys had in shaping my attitude. CBC: How long were you at DC the second time? Mike: Seven years. CBC: So you’re out by ’93? Something like that? Mike: Yeah. Dick brought me in to be the out-ofthe-box guy. And, by this point in my career, I knew all too well that’s whatever it is that motivates them to bring in the out-of-the-box guy goes way once they’re happy. Then they don’t need to take the risk of having an out-of-the-box guy. So seven years is actually a lot longer than I thought I was going to be there. For six years I had just total… well, near total freedom. And when I did leave, it was a conspiracy between me and Giordano. I gave three months’ notice when I left and Dick gave six months’ notice. Now, sadly, Dick’s wife died shortly thereafter and things changed a little bit. But that’s what changed the era. And what DC did was that afterwards, well, corporations will be corporations and their priorities are asinine, so they’re going to adapt to their corporate needs, not their creative needs. And not even necessarily their financial needs. Comics is not always a bottom-line business. And as you can see from all the permutations of DC Comics from well, from Warner Communications to Time Warner to Time Warner-AOL to AT&T, and now Warner Bros. Discovery, you know, the players keep on changing, and none of them understand what comics are about and goddamn few seem to understand what creativity is all about. Creativity is a pain in the ass. Just ask Louis B. Mayer. “We need these writers, but they’re assholes. Get rid of them. Just keep them away from me!” [laughter] CBC: Do you think you set up the architecture for the introduction of Vertigo? Mike: Oh, good point. But I never thought of that before. I think it was part of a larger thing going on, 29

Above: Mike Gold remains rightfully proud of his receiving the 2011 Dick Giordano "Changing Comics One Day at a Time" humanitarian award. Previous page: Histories of a trio of notorious Chicago denizens, swindler "Yellow Kid" Weil, Windy City radical Slim Brundage, and bad ol' "Scarface" himself, Alphonse Gabriel Capone,nationally known gangster. Mike Gold cited these mugs as flavorful local characters who influenced Gold as much as Superman and the Bowery Boys! Below: Shatter, Mike Saenz's digital comic book, received a massive amount of American press in 1985 for the novelty of it being the first computer-generated comic book.

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Shatter TM & © Mike Saenz and Peter Gillis. Jon Sable, Freelance TM & © Mike Grell.

Mike: No, I stayed here [on the East Coast]. I stayed here. I was broadcasting and doing internet stuff. I was doing a lot of independent comics packaging, you know, for Image, IDW, and other publishers, mostly working with my old friends because, well, I wanted to continue to work with my old friends. But that wasn’t really my bread and butter. I got more involved in my political work, more involved in my writing, and, of course, my broadcasting. I didn’t have to take life more seriously than I wanted to. Because if you take life too seriously, you become a real pain in the ass. And sadly, I had to become a real pain in the ass before I realized that. [chuckles] You know, I just continue doing the same things that I’ve always been doing, just not under the sort of corporate shell. And I’m not a fan of bureaucracy. My strengths do not lend well to bureaucracy, and those bureauand you put your finger on it in that 1986 thing, and I think crats (and I don’t say that derisively) with whom I have worked, Jenette had a lot to do with that. In those days, she was still would laugh their asses off to hear me say that. I’m just not a very committed to a creative-run business. But Vertigo is very fan of bureaucracy because it interferes with creativity. much Karen Berger’s thing and built upon her relationships with British talent, some of whom were at the time and are now CBC: We haven’t touched upon this in our series of interviews. Would you mind sharing about your domestic life over friends of mine. But it was a very separate thing. The attitude behind Vertigo…? Well, I just saw this week’s episode of Doom the years? Did you get married? Did you start a family? Patrol, and if I can take credit for any piece of that, I’m fine with Mike: I have been married twice. First time to a woman named Ann DeLarye who I had met at the drug abuse education that. I don’t think that’s actually true. I think we were all part of same sort of cultural wave that was effective in DC in 1986, ’87, program, where she worked. And that was when we co-created the Chicago Comic-Con, with guys like Bob Weinberg, Joe and ’88. Sarno, and Larry Charet, and she worked on those early CBC: What was it Alan Moore who was at the crest of that conventions. And we stayed married for the better part of about wave? Mike: Well, yeah, I mean, I’m the guy who gave Alan his first 20 years and after that I met this woman named Linda Johnson U.S. comics work, over at First Comics. I did so because an editor who had a 15-year-old daughter, and her daughter was hired by at 2000 A.D., Richard Burton, a friend of mine, sent me the first my buddy Mike Raub to work at his comic book store because issues of 2000 A.D. And I’m reading this stuff going, “Holy crap! he wanted a young woman clerk so that young women would come in to buy comics would have somebody to talk to. I Nobody’s done comics like this before!” Alan just had a truly married Linda and therefore Adriane became my daughter and innovative look at comics, maybe a little at comics storytelling. His Pogo story in Swamp Thing is remarkable in that he’d never she is the light of my life. Linda sadly died about 12 years ago. read the Pogo strip before! Evidently, he enjoyed it and turned And I’ve never gotten over that nor, quite frankly, do I intend to. Linda had a very anarchistic spirit, so we got along wonderfully! it into a Swamp Thing story, and that is either genius or in- She came up with one of the funniest lines I have ever heard. I sanity. It’s actually both. So my was doing a panel in San Diego and was sitting between Joyce respect for Alan as a writer and Brabner and Cat Yronwode. CBC: That’s a place to be. [chuckles] Sorry. as a storyteller is immense. Mike: Yeah, that’s the thought that occurred to me at the But you know, his equals in time. Somehow we got into a discussion about atheism, which the British comics scene and was a sensible conversation to me, but not one that goes well in his collaborators — certainly Brian [Bolland] — certainly are the public. You know, because everybody’s got their attitudes. But Joyce and Cat had much more extreme positions about it impeccable. It was one of the than I did. Which is saying a lot, because I tend to have extreme great things to happen to the positions about, you know, the weather. So, after the panel was comics medium. The British invasion of comics was one of over, I go back and Linda is sitting there. And she just looks at the absolute great things. And me, she says — and she’s the most militant atheist I knew — she even though all of us would to said, “Those are the type of people who give atheism a bad the extent that we could want name.” [laughter] And that was maybe the funniest line I’ve ever heard in my entire life. It’s all comics, y’know? to work with these people, CBC: ”It’s all comics”! It sure is, Mike. We are a small commubecause they’re so goddamn nity, that’s for sure. talented, you know… Karen Mike: Let me jump on that for a second. Now, one of my figured out a way to fill in the whole Vertigo line around that. proudest moments in comics was when I got the Hero Initiative award for “Humanitarian of the Year,” which they named That was great. Except for every cover was overwhelmingly for Dick Giordano. I was the second recipient of that; Jerry Robinson was the first. (Which, you know, Jerry Robinson! brown. I wish that they had a wider cover color palette. I got Oh, my god!) So you understand what all that means to me. But the idea of bringing those humanitarian efforts into the so tired of brown covers! creative arts is the most important, most critical thing, and CBC: What did you do after most fulfilling thing we can do. And during my little acceptance leaving DC in 1993. Did you speech, I said, “Comics are like a donut shop. You know, it’s a go back home?

small place, we all sit around the donut shop, and we all bitch about the same things. We all talk about the same things. And that’s kind of cool, but let me tell you something: the comics business, the comics field, is one hell of a donut shop. And I still believe that to this very day. We’ve gotten bigger, we’ve gotten more commercial, and from time to time we get less creative. That’s how it works in every field. You have more creative times; less creative times; not every year is 1986. But they are, by and large, the finest people that I could possibly know, and I’ve met a lot of people! So that’s an informed decision. I’m really proud to be part of this community. Very proud. CBC: Maybe I didn’t research enough but your name didn’t come up much in the 1990s; but you did in the ’00s, with ComicMix, the website… Mike: I was very interested in the world of the internet — still am — and I saw it as a transformative communication experience, and I wanted to be part of that. I’m glad I have been. I learned an awful lot about what that whole computer thing was all about. Now, of course, we’re beginning to become aware of the limitations of it. But it is a reality, and it is not something you like or dislike… you can say, “I don’t like the internet,” but the reality of situation is that it’s here. And innovation comes at lightning speed, faster and faster, and innovation inspires more innovation. So the ComicMix experience, able to work with guys like Brian Alvey, who is a legend in those fields. I’ve learned an awful lot. I also got back on radio. For nine years, I was able to do my weekly rock and blues show. That’s fun. You know, if I live long enough to see the next great advance, or at least in the great effort in communications, then I’ll find that just as interesting too. CBC: Were you behind Shatter at all? Mike: Yes. Shortly after the Macintosh came out, Mike Saenz showed me these pages of storytelling he did with it. And I’m looking at this and I’m going, “You’re kidding! You can do storytelling with this? With a computer?” And keep in mind that was like the 72 dot per inch days of computing, the earliest days of graphic art computing. He said yes, and was able to structure a story around it. We brought Peter Gillis in to write it. I think Peter actually lived near Michael at the time. And we sold about a billion copies of that Shatter Special, because it was completely done on computers. Now, today, we take that for granted. We began to see the dark side of the whole AI art controversy saying is going to be serious issue for the creative communities to deal with. But, at that time, people just were blown away. The guy who was running Apple at the time, a guy named Jean-Louis Gassée, who was a philosopher and a very smart guy, was totally blown away that we could do that. It was not something he thought as something that would come out of computers. But, of course, computers are a tool — they’re a communications tool, they’re a creativity tool… they are a mind-control tool. And, you know, they link all of our missile systems. Computing is a force to be to be reckoned with, so the idea of a guy like Michael, looking at that and saying, “I can do comics with this,” that’s an exciting thing to hear, because nobody’s done that before. CBC: The announcement created a media sensation and you sold a “billion” copies. And once you’re first to do something, whoever is second doesn’t matter, right? The media circus has moved on. Mike: I think that’s true. But now it’s become invisible. You pick up a comic book today, and you don’t necessarily know what’s computer-generated, or quite frankly what type of a pen the inker used, nor should you. It’s the story that counts for the reader — that’s the experience. The computer is just a tool. It was COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

great fun to be involved with the beginnings of that. But, you know, if Michael hadn’t started that up when he did and come to me, somebody else would have. It was Michael’s genius to be first. CBC: And it was also about the expectations of the public, right? The impact of the story was, “Oh, my god, computers are going to take the place of artists and now do comics!” It wasn’t that a person is going to do comics using the computer as a tool. I remember the press attention being huge. Mike: It was huge, and it was exciting to be a part of, but let’s face it, it was just the 1980s’ version of John Henry, the steel driving man. It’s the latest innovation and people are going to look at that and think, “Oh god, they’re going to take my job.” Which is a legitimate feeling. History shows that, more often than not, innovation is going to change your job, it’s going to create new jobs, it’s going to change the world. But everything does and everything has. Whoever invented the coffee bean or at least realized, “Wow, I can stay up all night cramming for my exam because of these coffee beans,” that changed the world. CBC: Can we talk about whether there any connection between Shatter and AI? AI seems ready to explode and severely impact the lives of freelance artists. Do you see any connection there? Mike: No. They’re tools. Tools are what you make of them. There are aspects of AI that will make the creative arts more

This page: There was something about the Shatter innovation — perhaps an allusion to the possibility that computers were coming to take the jobs of comics creators…? — that captivated the nation's attention in 1985. But after #1 [Dec. 1985] (above) of the regular series sold out, interest waned precipitously. Below is a Chicago Tribune piece from ’86.

Above: Truth be told, Ye Ed could have easily conducted more interview sessions with mighty Mike Gold — the two seen here at the 2022 Baltimore Comic-Con held this past October — but all good things do come to an end! When first we chatted, the world was under Covid-19 lockdown and now, as evidenced above, the globe is in a different place. Below: This is the home page of the website co-created by Mike Gold, ComicMix, from 2016 featuring a photo of Gold and the greatest boxer of all time, Muhammad Ali, during an event promoting the Dennis O'Neil/Neal Adams' masterwork, Superman Vs. Muhammad Ali. In the blog post, Gold also shares about meeting the champ for the first time in 1971 or ’72, when he encountered Ali in a Chicago elevator. "I did a double-take that might have impressed Moe Howard. Ali let out a gut-level laugh, flashing that famous smile," Gold writes.

interesting. But, let’s face it, the negatives of AI in terms of stealing other people’s work from, appropriating other people’s work… that started with a light box and tracing paper. You trace a photograph on tracing paper. Is that your work? Because, if that’s so, that explains Stan Drake to me. If it’s not, than you gotta explain Stan Drake to me. This is not new; it’s just a new tool. CBC: Yeah, but is it gonna make it’s going to make uncreative people with this powerful new tool able to put a lot of people out of work? Mike: Yeah, it’s possible and we have got to watch out for that. But we’ve had swipe artists already in the comics business since there’s been the comics business, and major league swipe arts! I mean, Jack Kirby took The Demon from Hal Foster’s Prince Valiant. everybody swiped Alex Raymond, everybody. The problem is not the tool, the problem is the person who uses the tool and if they just want to use it to imitate other people’s work or to steal other people’s work, then they’re a thief. If they’re young and starting out, and using it in order to learn their craft (which is what we all do), so they’re not being thieves… as long as they realize at some point in their career what they’re doing, and they put more and more of their own work into it. And now in comics, whomever it was who replaced Alex Raymond on Jungle Jim was told to imitate Raymond’s style. And he would do that for a while until he was able to bring his own stuff into the work. And that’s been true with just about every corporate-owned character. If you’re taking over Batman, and it’s 1957, then you’re told to look at Dick Sprang. You know, and, and it’s okay for DC to say that to a new artist, because they own the material, the artists doesn’t. So perhaps that’s where the problem was, as well. I’m not scared of AI, but I do understand why people are pissed about it and I would be too if something I had worked for weeks putting together was imitated the way work has been recently. And I think there’s a lot of people who are in the forgery business, who are just really thrilled by these opportunities and it’s going to screw up the art collector’s world something fierce. But it’s a morality issue, not a technical issue. It’s not the computer that is responsible, it is the person who decides to swipe somebody else’s work that is responsible. So you have to remember that.

CBC: Do you have hope for the future of comics? Mike: Well, I’m not part of it. [chuckles] Yes. Visual storytelling has always been with us. You know, it used to be when they start writing articles about comics, you know, they would always talk about — once they got past the biff and pow stuff — they talked about the caveman paintings, which were comics, really (as were newspaper strips), but they were comics. And visual storytelling will always be part of the human experience. Because obviously, we live in a very visual world and it’s a great means for storytelling. So it’s the basis for all storytelling, quite frankly, even if you’re just writing a prose work. Chances are pretty damn good you’re writing visually. The reason why I brought playwrights like John Ostrander and Del Close into the comics business is because they can think visually in terms of their staging, and that’s a great tool, particularly for a writer… more so for a writer than an artist, I think. And those predilections will always be around. Jules Feiffer in The Great Comic Book Heroes wrote about how everybody in the comics business would go back and look at Citizen Kane, you know, from the perspectives and the angles. And that made sense. Feiffer has a very Hollywood view of comics business that I truly enjoy. But it’s part of a continuum. I don’t know what comics are going to look like 100 years from now — I hope that we still have an Earth 100 years from now. Well, we’ll have an Earth; I just don’t know if we’ll have humans on it! It will continue to evolve, and that’s the cool part. And if all you want is the same old thing, that’s why we have reprints. I’m serious. It’s really okay. If your view of a comic book is Jack Kirby and very little beyond that, well, there’s plenty of Jack Kirby reprints out there. And that’s great stuff. I love Jack’s work and it was one of the first artists whose work I’d recognized. But, you know, we’ve done so much more. Jack was there pretty much at the very beginning of comics. But it’s survived all this time since he died and it’s continued to grow. And that’s what creativity is all about. Creativity is moving forward. I mean, yes, you can use it as a window to the world, and you should, if you have something to say. But I have no doubt that we will always have the need for storytelling, we will always have the need and desire for visual storytelling, and what we refer to as comics today, which will evolve just as it has evolved, will play a major part in that. Watch out when an old man starts talking about “youngsters,” [chuckles] but when youngsters enter the field today, I hope they continue to do so with an eye towards, “What can we make of all this?” Because that’s where the fun is and that’s where it’s exciting. You know: to boldly go where no one has gone before, even if you really never want to go back there. [laughs] It’s okay to take a journey to someplace you don’t want to because now you know you don’t want to. That’s alright. We’ll there’s always, there’s always buyer’s remorse. But look at all the great stuff! We can very optimistic about that. As long as we have humanity, we will have that, I think… I hope! CBC: What do you want to be best remembered for in comics? Mike: This interview? I’d never thought about it. I know that sounds incredibly naive. Without phrasing it as such, I’ve tried to live my life true to myself as sort of an evolving art form. I think everybody’s life can be that. You just have to be aggressive enough and stupid enough to pursue it. I say “stupid” only because we’re told we should be making money and that has never been a priority for me. Money is a means to an end; not the end. So I can’t look back and say, “I’m proudest of…”or “be remembered for,” other than saying, “The totality.” Because everybody has that totality in them. You gotta let it loose. #30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

CBC is Now Ten Years Old! Yed Ed contemplates a writer's life for me! And CBA started a quarter-century ago this year! Anyway, I’ve since moved on to the next level in this Great Glorious Godfrey! It’s totally snuck up on me to realize wonderful realm called comthat my second magazine — now in yer mitts — was started 10 ics, and devote a big chunk years ago right about now and, in addition (lest it be forgot), of my time to writing, though the first periodical I started with John Morrow, Comic Book my interviewing creators is far Artist, debuted a quarter-century ago! How time doth fly! from over. But I am striving to Previously, I had no specific plans to celebrate these compose more narratives as milestones. Though I’ve never begrudged publications that the creative endeavor, after all, do pat themselves on the back with tributes proclaiming their gives such glorious satisfac50th, 100th, or 250th issues, or this or that anniversary — hell, tion I can (ironically?) hardly I’m the guy who came up with the idea for an entire book full describe it! It’s completely of self-congratulations, The World of TwoMorrows! — though I intoxicating to write my books understand the urge, especially to acknowledge publicly the and the narrative pieces in legion of people who have helped to put these pubs together. CBC and I hope that enthusiBut, as this new year dawned, I just got the okay from the head asm is evident in the work. man to put together a Best of Comic Book Artist trade paperback Few unrealized projects that will gather choice, long out-of-print interviews with new best illustrate my haphazlayouts and color graphics, so that’ll be my nod to the 25 years ard journey (and oddball since I started this mags-about-comics stuff. In between my interests) than a strong desire CBC obligations, layout assignments, and book projects, I’ll be to document, of all things, working on that collection into the spring, so look for that tome a study of the long-running on sale at twomorrows.com or at your LCS sometime in the fall. comic book, Treasure Chest, a Of course, anniversaries and new years are perfect times title I’ve always had an endurto reflect and it’s natural to think about the changes that have ing affection for (even though occurred since the spring of 1998, when an utterly exhausted I never went to Catholic me pulled one last all-nighter to finish up CBA #1 and FedEx school!). And it’s not because the Zip disks to John Morrow for him to deliver to the printer. In of the rabid anti-communist stance in certain highly collectible the beginning, my magazine work focused on first-person oral issues during its 27-year existence or for the kitsch value of the histories, particularly examining eras not often covered, interoften corny, overtly religious effort. viewing as many living participants as possible, and I succeedThe main appeal about the comic book published by “Geo. ed in building up a mountainous inventory of taped interviews. A. Pflaum” was, for me, that it had some superb artists and fine In essence, the transcripts were primary source material to be writers regularly contributing, including cartoonist Frank Borth, gathered and published, a vast resource of content I planned to whose career stretched back to the Golden Age working for later make use of in this or that narrative history to come. “Busy” Arnold’s Quality Comics line. So, determined to put toFrom the very first issue, I knew that I needed to record the gether a retrospective on the outfit, I visited Borth at his cottage recollections of those writers, artists, and editors, as many were in the Hamptons in 2003 and conducted a career-spanning aging and the relentless march of time challenged their mem- talk. I also had a long phone conversation with artist Fran Maories. I was stunned to realize that my interview with Archie tera, a recorded Q&A that unfortunately was somehow erased Goodwin, the greatest editor in the history of American comics, (still painful for me). I contacted George Pflaum’s grandson and a chat which focused on an almost trivial, brief stretch when Shaun Clancy provided some fantastic historical material, and he edited for DC Comics during Carmine Infantino’s reign, was I made a special trip in 2019 to talk in person with Joe Sinnott conducted during his last hours at the company as he would about his work for the Dayton, Ohio-based company. go on to die of cancer just days after our interview. This tragic What I’m getting at is, while it may take decades for me scenario made me suddenly recognize the urgency of my job. to accumulate material on Still, I missed opportunities due to personal shortcomings, even subjects as obscure as which I’d later recognize in my journey to recovery as self-genTreasure Chest, my love for erated (ask any friend of Bill for instructions on how to repair this stuff eventually has me defects of character!). And, yet, I was still able, with the help of completing these efforts. It generous contributors and participants, to produce a quality might not end up being a magazine that proved critically successful and one supported singular retrospective (as my by a loyal readership. And I’ll always be grateful for all of this. Borth history will run in CBC In the 25 years since I started in this biz, some would ask if #31–33, for instance), the I was annoyed when interviews I conducted would be quoted, research will, God willing, find sometimes extensively, in this or that history book, and my its way into the pages of my honest response would be, well, the first-person primary source books and mags. material I assemble is intended to be used as a resource for Happy anniversary, CBC! future historians — including me! History isn’t a commodity! Long may we thrive!

Treasure Chest TM & © the respective copyright holder

by JON B. COOKE

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

Above: While a tome singularly dedicated to the history of the parochial school comic book, Treasure Chest, is unlikely — it is, after all, a very esoteric subject, right? — Ye Ed will use the pages of this magazine to cover different aspects of the fascinating series that, between 1946–72, was, for much of that span, published every two weeks during the Sept.– June academic year. Below: Ye Ed visited the great Joe Sinnott and son Mark in late Summer 2019, to chat about Joe’s Treasure Chest work. That interview ran in CBC #22 [Spr. 2020].

incoming

Joe Frank Speaks Frankly

The postal service happened to bring us a letter on The Charlton Companion, so here it is! [I’ve decided I’m simply not going to bitch and moan about not receiving letters of comment anymore — it gets tedious — and will use space to just yak about what yours truly has been up to in the comics sphere as of late and — for your edification as much as to keep me reminded — of upcoming projects that should find their way into these pages. Or not. Of course, any LOCs receive will be considered for print, even if it’s about one of my books (I’m looking at you, Joe Frank!), so if the spirit moves you, fire away! — Ye Ed.]

Joe Frank Now I understand why The Charlton Companion took so long! It was meticulous even by your standards. Really enjoyed it as it

not only reinforced what little I knew but, also, added tangents and much new information to the mix. It also clarified some aspects for me. Foremost, they wanted comic books on the press. They weren’t willing to pay much, but the trade-off there was they weren’t looking to micromanage. So, for those motivated to do a good job, there was little to no interference. It may’ve been more lack of time editorially than a policy of creative freedom, but it worked out the same. Sounds like for some, such as Steve Ditko, it was an operating policy that had its perks. He could tell stories his way. The downside, especially in later years, is the comics line was frequently cut back, temporarily suspended, or cancelled. Hard to attract and retain talent under those conditions. Likewise, it’s difficult to tempt readers with the material if they have a feeling the line isn’t long for the world. That, combined with dubious distribution, made it challenging to follow any given title. It also reinforces that it’s the talent producing the books that’s important, not who publishes them. Ditko at Marvel, DC, or Charlton is still Ditko. While I wasn’t a fan of Captain Atom, because of outside inking, I loved his Blue Beetle and The Question. I’d likely have followed them had I seen them on the racks. But the fact is, I didn’t. Yet, years later, I loved them as back issues. In fact, BB #5 and Mysterious Suspense #1 are two of my favorites. So much content for twelve cents! If the distribution wasn’t all it could be — dysfunctional or compromised — it made it impossible for the books to gain an audience, sell, and succeed. A shame when something of quality and interest was being offered, however briefly. You also focused on Charlton using something other than money to attract interest: seeking fan submissions as far as writing (mid-’60s) and, later, artwork (early ’80s). It was a way to get material published and a foot in the door of the comics industry. Making a name at Charlton, establishing a reputation, made it easier to eventually get work elsewhere. If they didn’t offer high page rates, they did offer assignments and a chance to improve one’s abilities. No one was forced to work there, so those who did, accepted the terms as they were. One thing I really enjoyed was you reminding us of all the greats who were involved with the company

[Thanks, Joe! As always, much appreciate your thoughtful and welcome missives (even when I admit they are actually delivered by email and not from my P.O. Box courtesy of the U.S. Postal Service, despite my awfully untrue subhead above!). Anyhoo, I mostly agree with your assessment and thanks for being understanding about my having to focus on other projects while still doing CBC. This is actually my tenth year doing the magazine and, by my calculation, 30 issues in ten years does not a quarterly make, so I’m grateful for readers' understanding that I do make an effort to make this a quality magazine, which can take more time than planned. Thanks to all for being loyal. Now, onto some email and reviews I’ve received for The Charlton Companion! I am never — ever! — too shy to boast! — Y.E.] #30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Charlton Companion TM & © Jon B. Cooke and TwoMorrows. Aline Kominsky-Crumb portrait, Maverix and Lunatix: Icons of Underground Comix © Drew Friedman. Used with permission.

Above: Shameless Ye Ed is devoting the entire "Incoming" letters col to the response to his latest opus, The Charlton Companion (seen here). Below: The great Aline Kominsky-Crumb, immortalized here by Drew Friedman in his latest book, Maverix and Lunatix: Icons of Underground Comix, published by Fantagraphics.

at one point or another: Siegel and Shuster (separately); Harvey Kurtzman and the Humbug crew; Simon and Kirby, Neal Adams and Continuity, etc. Not long stays but of mutual consent and advantage, for a brief period. I also enjoyed the description of the plant and the details of the storm, flood, and evacuation. I’d hate, of necessity, to leave a building by helicopter. The importing and employment of workers from Italy for low wage positions, represented as charitable, may’ve been unintentionally so. That is, once immigrants learned the language and marketable skills, they, too, could leave and make their fortunes elsewhere. It sounds like there was a superficial effort to provide extras — recreational facilities and whatnot — but a better wage would have been preferable. Sadly, as the years went by and business declined, those who were counting on a pension were out of luck. If offered in good faith, reality made it a broken promise. You reminded me that Charlton was also a magazine publisher. They still had the presses running even if it wasn’t necessarily comic books. So, unrelated magazines could help the bottom line during slow to disappointing comics sales. I also enjoyed all the memories and photos of Dick Giordano. He strove to be creative in the ’60s, both at Charlton and DC. He was, but given little support. In fact, at DC, for any good ideas and innovative titles, sounds like he had much contention — enough to leave — with Carmine Infantino. The saddest part, for me, was at the end of the comics run, in the mid-’80s. Steve Ditko returned and was working on new stories and promotion — a considered rebuilding effort. Yet, before he could be given a fair chance to turn things around, the plug was pulled — for the final time — on the comics line. So, potential but no publishing commitment. If much of Charlton’s output wasn’t wonderful, that could apply to any publisher. Better to simply focus on the gems or early opportunities to learn one’s craft. Anyway, a wonderful tour of the company and the people behind it, Jon. Granted, you were more curious about the music magazines than I was, but I’m sure it was in the interests of more complete coverage. Now, with the book filed on my shelf, hope you can get back to CBC and, once again. get some momentum going there. Missed seeing it while you were preoccupied in Derby.

From Paul Levitz: “What a lovely job on the Charlton book… so much deep digging!” From Mark Evanier: “You did an amazing job, Jon. I would not have believed it was possible to dig up this much information on that company.” Mark also shared a smashing review on his News from ME blog site, excerpted here: “The story of the company itself is fascinating and historian Jon B. Cooke has recently given us an exhaustive and amazing book that recounts that history. To put it simply: I am stunned by how much he was able to uncover, especially this long after Charlton is out of business and most of the folks involved in it have passed. I would not have thought it was humanly possible to amass as much information as he gives in The Charlton Companion… He covers how the company was founded behind bars in a jail cell… all its business dealings of questionable legality… how it grew out of the sheet music business… how it survived a major flood… how it made Larry Flynt rich and powerful… how it managed to do comics cheaper than just about anyone… If you have the slightest interest in the subject matter, you need a copy of this one… the best book on comic book history I’ve seen in a long time.” From Bud Plant, who gave the book the coveted “Our Highest Recommendation” in his catalog (thanks, Bud!): “Fans of comics history; of the often-strange Charlton; of Steve Ditko; and the 1960s and 1970s comics explosion of creativity — this is your book. I’ve rarely read a better history! From the beginning (publisher Santangelo’s illegal song lyrics and jail sentence and meeting his future partners behind bars!), this offers every minute detail of the company, the artists, the writers, the characters of this independent and feisty company who many of us remember very fondly — I do… Jon gives each project 110% and then some. I can’t recommend this book and his other projects enough, they are many of my favorite books about comics and comics creators.” From Karl Heitmueller: “I’m just finishing The Charlton Companion and am… astounded. What an amazing piece of work. This could well be the most comprehensive and engaging bit of comic book history I’ve ever read. Thank you so much for such an amazing book.”

This page: In an error as cringe-worthy as calling Len Wein’s Swamp Thing the “nadir” of his career (yikes!), I made a boneheaded mistake in The Charlton Companion. On page 76 (detail above), I labeled the “before” and “after” images as occurring in a single day. My excitement in realizing that the white box-like thing in the pics was the drive-in movie screen got the better of me and I neglected to pull out the original Xerox of the Newsdealer page from Oct. 1955 (below) that Bob Beerbohm had sent back in 2000, where the caption clearly states the “after” shot was taken four days later. My apologies. The realization that I should’ve checked came after the book was printed. Mea culpa, Charlton Companion readers. Now I can get a good night’s sleep!

Above: As mentioned in Ye Ed’s reply to buddy Michael H. Price’s kind missive herein, it’s MHP and Dave Ferman’s enormously fun Lone Star Larceny trade paperback, over 300 pages of comics devoted to Texas criminals of the last three-and-a-half centuries! Below: Ye Ed and Mrs. Ye Ed were delighted to be invited to pal Denis Kitchen’s birthday soireé this summer! Not only did Y.E. get quality time with one of his favorite cartoonists, Peter Poplaski, and chat with old chum (and equally admired artist) Rick Veitch, but brother Andy and I hand-delivered our Will Eisner documentary DVD to attendee Neil Gaiman (who appears in the furshlugginer movie!), plus all of us got this limited-edition Pete Pop button!

From Richard Pini: “Just got my copy of The Charlton Companion and what a monumental job of research! (Not to mention an incredible treasure trove of information, and trivia, and so much more, about a company that was only slightly on my radar when I was a much younger fanboy.) “This tome is becoming special to me for other reasons as well. One, I grew up in Orange, Connecticut, the town next door to Derby, and many were the times I’d ride my bike from home to or through Derby — never knowing what was happening almost in my own backyard (with regard to comics). But I still feel a kind of affection for the fact that Charlton was ‘right there.’ (As opposed to Marvel or DC, which existed ‘far, far away’ as far as I was concerned.) COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

Above: Aline Kominsky-Crumb and Ye Ed at the “Weirdo Comes to Columbia” symposium, held in New York City, on Monday night, Oct. 28, 2019, the last time I saw — and hugged — the brilliant cartoonist and editor affectionately nicknamed “The Bunch.” The wife of Robert Crumb and mother of Sophie Crumb passed away from pancreatic cancer, at home is Sauve, France, on Nov. 29, 2022. The artist was 74 years old.

“Another reason (and I’m sure more will spring up) is that, as I was flipping through the book for the first time, I landed on the chapter about Siegel and Shuster, and their attempts to find work after their lightningin-a-bottle experience of Superman. I will never forget the day, years ago, when a package came in the mail to Warp Graphics from Jerry Siegel. It contained several scripts and story proposals, along with a cover letter inquiring if we wanted to publish any of them. It was one of the most bittersweet moments of my life. On the one hand, the proposals were, to be charitable, not very strong. On the other hand, however, I knew I was holding a letter from Jerry ****ing Siegel!… and somehow I was going to have to tell him we weren’t interested. (And yes, of course, I still have all that material.) So your book brought back a flood of memories of that encounter — and as I said, I am certain there will be more. “Anyway, I just wanted to let you know my initial reaction to The Charlton Companion is 103% positive. It’s been a little while since we all got together for the big Wendy issue of CBC, and we hope you and yours are doing well in these strange not-really-post-Covid times.” From Alan Brennert: “I just finished The Charlton Companion and thoroughly enjoyed it. Aside from my love for the Action Heroes, I liked getting to know the history of Charlton Press and the people who made it what it was. Reading it was a bit like researching my novel, Palisades Park: Palisades Amusement Park was a big part of my childhood, but I wanted to write something about the people and events who made it what it was, and so I dug down to the granular level in my research. I got that same experience reading your book, and I didn’t have

to write a thing! Bravo, excellent work.” From Bill Pearson: “What a fabulous volume of research and outstanding graphics! If this would be the only book you edited and designed, your name should go down as one of the top men in your vocation. Not kidding.” From Will Murray: “This thing is a monster! Congrats. So far, I’ve only scratched the surface, but it’s obviously the definitive work on the company. Glad I was able to contribute.” From Roy Thomas: “The book came today, and it looks like one I’ll have to read from cover to cover. Of course, the first thing I did was notice that you didn’t give me credit (on page 115) for writing the last of the five issues of the 1965 Blue Beetle series, my second sale ever… it’s credited and everything, so definitely no way anybody looking at the splash page could think it was Joe Gill… but that’s no big deal. I’m sure I’ll learn a lot. Congrats!” From Steve Bissette: “My copy of the Charlton book arrived yesterday, and it’s fantastic. I caught one error, alas (Valley of the Dragons wasn’t an AIP movie; Columbia released it, and I suspect the AIP connection can be traced via Famous Monsters “Things to Come” movie titles announced and AIP pulling the plug on that Verne adaptation due to Columbia beating ’em to the punch), but that’s small potatoes. The book is magnificent, cover to cover!” [Thanks to everybody who commented! It was a blast to do the book and will serve as a template for my narrative histories to come. I hope my overall philosophy of the “artist above the artifact” is obvious to those who read the book, as I tried to jam in as much biographical information of all the creators I selected to focus on, many who almost nobody knows much about. Plus I strived to include photos of each and every creator. Maybe the book would have been better served to have an index (which I hated to omit but, dammit, something had to give, people!), but I am pretty satisfied with the tome. — Y.E.]

Oh, Baltimore! Ye Ed.’s first show since before Covid hit was last October’s Baltimore Comic-Con, where I went to hang with my two best buds, TwoMorrows publisher John Morrow (left, at an eatery with a cool name) and Rob Yeremian, proprietor of The Time Capsule (below, at left), plus I spent time with many pros, including (right) Cartoonist Kayfabe pals, Ed Piskor and Jim Rugg!

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

All characters TM & © the respective copyright holder. COLORS BY GLENN WHITMORE.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR #14

Comprehensive KELLEY JONES interview, from early years as Marvel inker to present-day greatness at DC depicting BATMAN, DEADMAN, and SWAMP THING (chockful of rarely-seen artwork)! Plus WILL MURRAY examines the nefarious legacy of Batman co-creator BOB KANE in an investigation into tragic ghosts and rapacious greed. We also look at RAINA TELGEMEIER and her magnificent army of devotees, and more! (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99

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Celebrating 30 years of artist’s artist MARK SCHULTZ, creator of the CADILLACS AND DINOSAURS franchise, with a feature-length, career-spanning interview conducted in Mark’s Pennsylvanian home, examining the early years of struggle, success with Kitchen Sink Press, and hitting it big with a Saturday morning cartoon series. Includes rarely-seen art and fascinating photos from Mark’s amazing and award-winning career.

A look at 75 years of Archie Comics’ characters and titles, from Archie and his pals ‘n gals to the mighty MLJ heroes of yesteryear and today’s “Dark Circle”! Also: Careerspanning interviews with The Fox’s DEAN HASPIEL and Kevin Keller’s cartoonist DAN PARENT, who both jam on our exclusive cover depicting a face-off between humor and heroes. Plus our usual features, including the hilarious FRED HEMBECK!

Career-spanning discussion with STEVE “THE DUDE” RUDE, as he shares his reallife psychological struggles, the challenges of freelance subsistence, and his creative aspirations. Also: The jungle art of NEAL ADAMS, MARY FLEENER on her forthcoming graphic novel Billie the Bee and her comix career, RICH BUCKLER interview Part Three, Golden Age artist FRANK BORTH, HEMBECK and more!

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NOT YOUR AVERAGE JOES! Interview with JOSEPH MICHAEL LINSNER (CRY FOR DAWN, VAMPIRELLA), a chat with JOE SINNOTT about his Marvel years inking Jack Kirby and work at TREASURE CHEST, JOE JUSKO discusses the Marvel Age of Comics and his fabulous “Corner Box Collection,” plus the artists behind the Topps bubble gum BAZOOKA JOE comic strips, CRAIG YOE, and more!

ERIC POWELL celebrates 20 years of THE GOON! with a career-spanning interview and a gallery of rare artwork. Plus CBC editor and author JON B. COOKE on his new retrospective THE BOOK OF WEIRDO, a new interview with R. CRUMB about his work on that legendary humor comics anthology, JOHN ROMITA SR. on his admiration for the work of MILTON CANIFF, and more!

P. CRAIG RUSSELL career-spanning interview (complete with photos and art gallery), an almost completely unknown work by FRANK QUITELY (artist on All-Star Superman and The Authority), DERF BACKDERF’s forthcoming graphic novel commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Kent State shootings, CAROL TYLER shares her prolific career, JOE SINNOTT discusses his Treasure Chest work, CRAIG YOE, and more!

WENDY PINI discusses her days as Red Sonja cosplayer, & 40+ years of ELFQUEST! Plus RICHARD PINI on their 48-year marriage and creative partnership! Plus: We have the final installment of our CRAIG YOE interview! GIL KANE’s business partner LARRY KOSTER talks about their adventures together! PABLO MARCOS on his Marvel horror work, HEMBECK, and more! Cover by WENDY PINI.

TIMOTHY TRUMAN discusses his start at the Kubert School, Grimjack with writer JOHN OSTRANDER, and current collaborations with son Benjamin. SCOTT SHAW! talks about early San Diego Comic-Cons and friendship with JACK KIRBY, Captain Carrot, and Flintstones work! Also PATRICK McDONNELL’s favorite MUTTS comic book pastiches, letterer JANICE CHIANG profiled, HEMBECK, and more! TIM TRUMAN cover.

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BARRY WINDSOR-SMITH discusses his new graphic novel MONSTERS, its origin as a 1980s Hulk story, and its evolution into his 300-page magnum opus (includes a gallery of outtakes). Plus part two of our SCOTT SHAW! interview about HannaBarbera licensing material and work with ROY THOMAS on Captain Carrot, KEN MEYER, JR. looks at the great fanzines of 40 years ago, HEMBECK, and more!

Career-spanning interview with TERRY DODSON, and Terry’s wife (and go-to inker) RACHEL DODSON! Plus 1970s/’80s portfolio producer SAL QUARTUCCIO talks about his achievements with Phase and Hot Stuf’, R. CRUMB and DENIS KITCHEN discuss the history of underground comix character Pro Junior, WILL EISNER’s Valentines to his wife, HEMBECK, and more!

Extensive PAUL GULACY retrospective by GREG BIGA that includes Paul himself, VAL MAYERIK, P. CRAIG RUSSELL, TIM TRUMAN, ROY THOMAS, and others. Plus a JOE SINNOTT MEMORIAL; BUD PLANT discusses his career as underground comix retailer, distributor, fledgling publisher of JACK KATZ’s FIRST KINGDOM, and mail-order bookseller; our regular columnists, and the latest from HEMBECK!

STEVE BISSETTE career-spanning interview, from his Joe Kubert School days, Swamp Thing stint, publisher of Taboo and Tyrant, creator rights crusader, and more. Also, Part One of our MIKE GOLD interview on his Chicago youth, start in underground comix, and arrival at DC Comics, right in time for the implosion! Plus BUD PLANT on his publishing days, comic shop owner, and start in mail order—and all the usual fun stuff!

DON McGREGOR retrospective, from early ’70s Warren Publications scripter to his breakout work at Marvel Comics on BLACK PANTHER, KILLRAVEN, SABRE, DETECTIVES INC., RAGAMUFFINS, and others. Plus ROBERT MENZIES looks at HERB TRIMPE’s mid-’70s UK visit to work on Marvel’s British comics weeklies, MIKE GOLD Part Two, and CARtoons cartoonist SHAWN KERRIE! SANDY PLUNKETT cover!

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The forerunner to COMIC BOOK CREATOR, COMIC BOOK ARTIST is the 20002004 Eisner Award winner for BEST COMICS-RELATED MAG! Edited by COMIC BOOK CREATOR’s JON B. COOKE, it features in-depth articles, interviews, and unseen art, celebrating the lives and careers of the great comics artists from the 1970s to today.

CBA BULLPEN COLLECTING THE UNKOWN ISSUES OF COMIC BOOK ARTIST!

COMIC BOOK ARTIST BULLPEN collects all seven issues of the little-seen labor of love fanzine published in the early 2000s by JON B. COOKE (editor of today’s COMIC BOOK CREATOR magazine), just after the original CBA ended its TwoMorrows run. Featured are in-depth interviews with some of comics’ major league players, including GEORGE TUSKA, FRED HEMBECK, TERRY BEATTY, and FRANK BOLLE—and an amazing all-star tribute to Silver Age great JACK ABEL by the Marvel Comics Bullpen and others. That previously unpublished all-comics Abel appreciation (assembled by RICK PARKER) includes strips by JOE KUBERT, WALTER SIMONSON, KYLE BAKER, MARIE SEVERIN, GRAY MORROW, ALAN WEISS, SERGIO ARAGONÉS, MORT TODD, DICK AYERS, and many more! Plus a new bonus feature on JACK KIRBY’s unknown 1960s baseball card art, and a 16-page bonus full-color section, all behind a Jack Kirby cover! (176-page trade paperback with COLOR) $24.95 • (Digital Edition) $8.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-105-9 • NOW SHIPPING!

ALSO AVAILABLE: DIGITAL EDITIONS OF ALL 25 ISSUES OF COMIC BOOK ARTIST, Vol. 1! TwoMorrows also offers Digital Editions of Jon B. Cooke’s COMIC BOOK ARTIST Vol. 2 (the “Top Shelf” issues)

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NEAL ADAMS/ALEX ROSS cover and interviews with both, history of “Arcade, The Comics Revue” with underground legends CRUMB, SPIEGELMAN, and GRIFFITH, MICHAEL MOORCOCK on comic book adaptations of his work, CRAIG THOMPSON sketchbook, and more!

Exhaustive FRANK CHO interview and sketchbook gallery, ALEX ROSS sketchbook section of never-before-seen pencils, MIKE FRIEDRICH on the history of Star*Reach, plus animator J.J. SEDELMAIER on his Ambiguously Gay Duo and The X-Presidents cartoons for Saturday Night Live.

Interview with DARWYN COOKE and a gallery of rarely-seen and unpublished artwork, a chat with DC Comics art director MARK CHIARELLO, an exploration of The Adventures of Little Archie with creator BOB BOLLING and artist DEXTER TAYLOR, new JAY STEPHENS sketchbook section, and more!

ALEX NIÑO’s first ever full-length interview and huge gallery of his artwork, interview with BYRON PREISS on his career in publishing, plus the most comprehensive look ever at the great Filipino comic book artists (NESTOR REDONDO, ALFREDO ALCALA, and others), a STEVE RUDE sketchbook, and more!

HOWARD CHAYKIN interview and gallery of unpublished artwork, a look at the ’70s black-&-white mags published by Skywald, tribute to Psycho and Nightmare writer/editor ALAN HEWETSON, LEAH MOORE & JOHN REPPION on Wild Girl, a SONNY LIEW sketchbook section, and more!

Double-sized tribute to WILL EISNER! Over 200 comics luminaries celebrate his career and impact: SPIEGELMAN, FEIFFER & McCLOUD on their friendships with Eisner, testimonials by ALAN MOORE, NEIL GAIMAN, STAN LEE, RICHARD CORBEN, JOE KUBERT, DAVID MAZZUCCHELLI, JOE SIMON, and others!

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An Interview with Comic Book Artist/Illustrator Michael Cho Assume nothing. If I’ve learned anything from the following two-session conversation — conducted via Skype in Sept. 2022 — with Toronto-based comic book artist Michael Cho, it is to leave my preconceptions at the door before pontificating to the man about what I presumed were his artistic influences. As you’ll see, I quickly learned better and, in the process, discovered the diverse, widespread, and eclectic forces that helped to shape Cho’s artistic sensibilities. Relatively new to comics — the Korean-born artist had a few things published by Marvel and DC during the ’00s and early ’10s, but it was his eight-pager kicking off a new Batman Black and White run in 2014, that garnered attention. “Don’t Know Where, Don’t Know When,” was written by author and book designer supreme Chip Kidd, who kindly shared with this magazine appreciation for his collaborator: “Michael Cho and his work embody the ideal 40

of the best of comics artists: strength, joy, power, vulnerability, courage, heart. He accomplishes all of this with a remarkable economy of means and a splendid sense of design. I am never less than thrilled to see what he does.” Since that break-out effort, Cho has been tapped by DC and Marvel to produce a vast number of beautifully designed, retro-centric covers, plus he wrote and drew the remarkably sensitive and evocative Shoplifter, a short graphic novel Publishers Weekly called, “A funny and touching portrait of urban angst.” All told, however, Cho has created but a handful of mainstream comic book stories though he is poised to launch into superstar status once a dream project — which might or might not involve characters and concepts created by certain comics royalty with the initials “J.K.” — is realized and I'll be the very first in line when any Cho tribute to the King makes its debut. — Jon B. Cooke #30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

the beauty of the world

The X-Men TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Batman, Robin TM & © DC Comics. Shoplifter, background illustration © Michael Cho.

Conducted by Jon B. Cooke • Transcribed by Tom Pairan Comic Book Creator: Did you have creative people in your family, Mike? Michael Cho: No, I did not. I was born in South Korea. My dad was a hardcore businessman — an entrepreneur — who had been in the army, which I think was the formative experience in his life. My mom was a former schoolteacher, and neither of them did anything creative, but that’s partially due to economic circumstances. They were kids during the Korean War. So, there was no opportunity to be a pianist or artist or something like that. But my mom does have an appreciation for the arts and, having thought it over through the years — trying to figure out where my creativity came from — I think it comes from that side, because she appreciated literature and fine art. Her favorite painter is Cezanne, for example. So I know she had an inclination toward creativity; she just never had the economic means to pursue that or even thought of that as a viable career. CBC: What year were you born? Michael: 1971. CBC: So you came over when you were six, so that was 1977 or ’78? Michael: I think it was January of 1977 when I came over. And we came to the Maritimes, which is like New England in the U.S., but it’s Canada’s Atlantic section, the east coast. And it was a complete culture shock. [laughs] CBC: Do you have much memory of South Korea? Michael: Oh, yeah. I remember lots about South Korea, but I didn’t go to school there, because I left when I was six. So, therefore, I never attended a day of school in South Korea, except for an art class my mom signed me up for. I remember we had a house, for example, and we were considered rich because we had a telephone — even though we were not rich, by any means… we had an outhouse! This is like pre-modern South Korea, which is now a high-tech paradise. But, back then, in the ’70s, it was still being reconstructed after the Korean War, so we had a little concrete house in Seoul… with an outhouse. We COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

had a well and we used to pump water. We had coal stove that heated one little section of the floor. I remember we were considered well off because we had a telephone and we had a black-&-white TV, and nobody else in the neighborhood we knew of had those luxuries. And the wild thing about TV back then — and I remember this vividly — is it only started programming at 6 o’clock, around dinner time, and it would only go on until 11. And the first thing they would air at six were cartoons. So my mom had a hell of a time trying to pull me away from the TV to get me to eat dinner because they would play Mazinger Z or they would play Astro Boy, and all I wanted to do was watch those shows. CBC: So they were the Japanese cartoons? Michael: Yeah, so I was watching giant robot cartoons when I was like four or five, and that left a huge impression on me, because I decided that’s all I wanted to do. I wanted to actually build a giant robot and take over the world. I think that was my first career goal. [laughs]. And I wasn’t the only one… I remember going to see the first animated feature film that they made in Korea called Robot Taekwon V, which is their knock-off of Mazinger Z, the first giant robot cartoon, and it was like Star Wars over here, like there were riots — CBC: “Riots,” really? Michael: Oh, yeah! It was the biggest thing. Basically, Korea today is an animation powerhouse, right? And that movie started it. Because, what happened was, it was such a big hit that, even in Seoul, there were riots because kids would come to the film and the movie would be two hours late because the other theater decided to squeeze in one more screening before they gave up the reel to the next theatre, you know? And so we’d be sitting there while kids are screaming and throwing popcorn or whatever, and I remember that movie vividly. Years later, when I was in art college, I was talking with a friend I’d met and 41

Above: Posters of the first and second installments of the wildly successful South Korean animated film franchise, Robot Taekwon V. The initial release made an impact on young Michael Cho and was dubbed and renamed Voltar the Invincible when it hit screens in the United States. Below: Michael Cho and his older sister as babies, photographed with their mother in pix taken before the family’s move from their native South Korea to Canada.

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Robot Taekwon V TM & © Shincine Communications Co., Ltd. • Photos courtesy of Michael Cho.

he had recently arrived from Korea, and we were talking about Robot Taekwon V. I mentioned that I saw that in Korea and he said, “Which one?” And I was like, “What do you mean, ‘which one’?” He said, “They made four of them.” I was stunned. I did not know there were more sequels. It’s like finding out there are four extra Star Wars films that you’d never seen! CBC: So, when you came to Canada you came through the Maritimes. Did you go straight to Toronto? Michael: No. I came from Seoul, which is a super-bustling, gigantic city even then, where there’s millions of people. And then I came to the Maritimes, which is like as rural as you get in Canada. So that’s where we landed, in Newfoundland, which is the island at the furthest, eastern-most edge. When you see photos of Newfoundland, it looks like Scotland in the 1920s. My mom had taken a few English courses so she could

navigate Canada because we were going to emigrate. My dad had been over here for a while, setting up some form of an existence for us. We were told that Canada’s a very cold country, so we all got in our winter coats, and then got on this plane, and our first stopover was Hawaii, where it was super-hot, and we’re in these winter coats. And my mom’s trying to figure out where the connecting flight is and I’m tugging on my mom’s sleeve, going, “I don’t understand. I thought you took English… I thought you spoke English!” And then I fell asleep on the plane and, the next thing I know, when I woke up, I was basically in a log cabin in Newfoundland. I awoke and looked up and saw these wood beams, and I was like, “What is this?” My big memory from Newfoundland, at that time, was there were some local people trying to help us, and one of them offered to take me to a baseball game. I thought it was a baseball game, meaning at a stadium, because that’s what I was used to in Seoul, and we went and it was just a game in the middle of the field, just two teams playing, with the grass up to my neck! And I’d never seen grass that tall, because I was a city kid. So, it was a complete culture shock. And we spent a good six months sort of moving all around the Maritimes, as my dad and mom considered settling there, and then we moved to Hamilton, Ontario, which is just an hour outside Toronto. And that’s where I spent most of my childhood. CBC: What was your father’s trade? What was his vocation? Michael: My father had a really weird life in that regard, because he was kind of a maverick. He was in the Vietnam War as an army officer, because it was financially viable. In Korea, at that time, there was no money, with very few job prospects. From an early age, after his oldest brother was killed accidentally during the Korean war (he was a teen and was playing at his friend’s house when they dropped a bomb on it by mistake) my dad became the breadwinner for six brothers and sisters, because he was now the oldest son. So he decided to enlist in the army and became an officer because he was very smart. He became a captain and then went to Vietnam as an army officer working with the U.N. and U.S. forces. And there he started an import/export business — shipping TVs and things like that back to Korea — and then, after he got out, he became the manager of an all-girl band that toured U.S. Army bases. And so, he came to the United States and toured Army bases with this all-girl band, and then eventually managed them as they made their way through Canada, with him trying to make enough money so he could bring my mom, my sister, and me over. So that was my dad’s initial job and then, when we settled in Hamilton, he did what most Koreans did in that era, which was open a variety store. He basically came here with nothing and got a little bank loan and put down a down payment to purchase a variety store in Hamilton, Ontario, in the worst part of town. Well, it was the

Photos courtesy of Michael Cho. • Star Wars TM & © Lucasfilm, Ltd.

toughest part of town. And that’s how we got our start in Canada. CBC: So your sister, is she older or younger? Michael: She’s one year older. CBC: Oh, so you were both pretty small when you came to Canada. Okay, your father started the convenience store. Is there a network of Korean expatriates who could help him out with setting one up? Michael: Yeah. The nice thing about Koreans is they always have this sort-of network that helps each other out, like most immigrant communities. With Koreans, the way it works generally is, whatever large metropolitan city they end up in, they usually have to find a church or something they can belong to, right? And the various members of the church pool some money together as a loan to give to the new family, to help them get a start. And that helps out with things and they join a community, so they’re not quite so homesick. But, back in the ‘70s, when we came over, there was no Korean popular culture in North America. Nowadays, Korean culture dominates everything, right? You’ve got movies that are Oscar winners; you’ve got music that has conquered the world; everybody has a Samsung phone… but, back then, whenever I’d say I’m Korean, they would go, “What’s that? Are you Chinese?” It was a lot different back then. CBC: What was your first taste of American pop culture? Michael: When we were in Newfoundland… Keep in mind it took a year or two years to learn the language, right? When we first landed in the Maritimes, my dad took us to some movies, because he was a huge movie buff. And I would constantly fall asleep in these things because I didn’t know the language. I remember seeing A Star Is Born, with Barbra Streisand, and we watched Rocky (and I did a little better with that because, while I fell asleep for most of it, when it came time for the final fight, I woke up). Then he took me and my mom to this theatre where there was a double-bill and my mom said, “Look, there’s a line up around the block!” And she was going to go see the horror film, maybe it was The Omen, or something like that. She was like, “They must all be here for this horror film. It must be good!” And then my dad took us to see this other film that was playing that happened to be Star Wars. And the line was obviously for that. When Star Wars started, I did not fall asleep. I don’t think I knew any English at the time, but I remember it so vividly and I understood the story and, when the film was over, I met up with my mom and she said, “There was no one to see that ghost story film at all.” [laughs] CBC: So when did you first pick up a pencil and start drawing? Michael: I was drawing since I was, like, three. That was a core part of my identity, for as long as I can remember. Back then, in the ‘70s, in Korea, you would go to the local corner store, and they would sell you ten sheets of paper for a penny. And I’d buy that and would just draw on both sides — giant robots, whatever — things I could think of and that’s how I amused myself. And I remember the big thing that happened: they used to have little stationery stores and they would sell all sorts of paper stuff to kids, like coloring books. But there was one set of books where they were like these little paperback things. They had a picture at the top that was a still from cartoon and then a space at the bottom for you to your copy of that. And one time I bought one and it had a contest: “Send in your best version of a drawing from this book and we’ll pick some winners.” And so I did my very best copy of a giant robot animated still. Then I sent it away and I waited, and this huge paper package arrived, a manila envelope stuffed to the gills, and it COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

said I had won third place! This was my prize and it was a pack of loose paper games that this company had put out… origami things to fold, a car that you could fold out of paper. There was a paper soccer game where you cut out the ball and there were these rules to play soccer. And that’s when I knew I had made it as an artist! [laughter] CBC: Holy smokes, that must have been quite the thrill! Michael: It was just a manila envelope, full of 30 or 40 little things like that, right, but when I was five — CBC: It’s treasure! Michael: Yeah, totally! And it convinced me that, you know, I have a future in art. [laughs] CBC: Were you born, were you given the name Michael? Michael: No. When we came here, we had to use Western names so we could assimilate better, and I think my dad picked it, but he could never spell “Michael” properly! So he’d sometimes, on my government documents, write “Mike.” I’m officially called “Mike Cho,” which is hilarious. [laughs] CBC: So, what was your first exposure to comics? Michael: Iron Man #145… [looks it up online] “Raider’s Rampage,” and it was drawn by John Romita, Jr., and Bob Layton… That was the first comic book I saw it at my parents’ variety store, because, back in the ’70s, they stocked comic books, along with MAD magazine, and a million other publications. They had a little comic rack and they would get comics every month. I saw this Iron Man thing on the stands and it reminded me of giant robots. Because it had a guy in an iron suit and I could relate to that. I remember reading this thing and learning enough English to read it, and that left such a huge impression

Above: Cho vividly recalled the first time he watched Star Wars in a movie theater. Despite not knowing English at the time, when the motion picture started, Cho said, “I did not fall asleep.” Incidentally, this famous poster by the Hildebrandt brothers was produced in a mere 36 hours!

Below: Michael and his grandmother and his father.

Above: It was this issue of Iron Man, #145 [Apr. 1981], which launched Cho into his enduring love for comic books. The ish — in which Cho still recalls features cameos by Howard Cosell and Muhammad Ali — was drawn by John Romita, Jr. (breakdowns), and Bob Layton (finishes), two artists Cho continues to appreciate. Below: Cho and his mother on a hot summer day. It was here, in his father’s Hamilton, Ontario, convenience store, where Cho first became a fan of Marvel Comics.

star-struck moment for a little bit. CBC: The bug got you right there, with Iron Man #145? Michael: Right there. And it was Marvel. Right away. And I took everything off the spinner rack that looked interesting. Read it and put it back. And my dad would yell at me if I dented a cover or something like that, and then sometimes I wouldn’t return it because I wanted to keep it. I had weird tastes… like “Dial H for Hero,” y’know? I liked anything that had interesting artwork. I think that’s when I discovered I had a visual sensibility, because there were certain artists that I keyed in on. For some reason, this stuff grabbed me and that stuff didn’t. And that’s what started the lifelong love of comic books. CBC: So, when you went to a Canadian classroom, did you enter first grade? Michael: Yeah, and not knowing any English. I actually went to first grade in a town outside Toronto, before we moved

to Hamilton. I remember my dad instructing me, saying, “If someone says this, you say, ‘I’m sorry, I don’t speak English.’” And, gradually, I would figure out, like all kids at that age, what they were saying. And the teacher liked me because I was a well-behaved kid. So, within a year, I had picked up enough English and was able to read it well enough, so then, after that, I was just a regular student. CBC: You say your father’s convenience store was in a tough neighborhood. Was it tough for you? Michael: Yes, it was. I grew up in the north end of Hamilton, which, back then, was considered a really tough neighborhood. It borders an Italian neighborhood and it’s near the docks, so there were always fights. In my public school, I remember watching one of my teachers fight with a student — a fistfight! A student taking on a teacher! I’m thinking, “Okay, this is really weird. This is not what I’m used to.” There were bullies, things like that… I made friends pretty fast… It’s kind of like the neighborhood where all immigrants go to after they first arrive. CBC: Did you feel bullied at all? Michael: Oh, yeah! Childhood in the north end was tough. I got into some fights and I got beaten up a few times. I had a guy who bullied me a lot in the neighborhood and then, one time, I got into a fight with his older brother, and he never bothered me again after that. But then, I got beaten up many times, as well. So, it’s a typical story, especially for a lot of Asian kids back then. There was a lot of racism in those days. Nobody had heard of Korea in that neighborhood and they wondered if I was Chinese, and they threw the typical racist “ching-chong” stuff at me. CBC: Is the phrase “escapism” significant? Did you escape into the comics? Michael: Oh, 100%! And not only with comics, but also through art. Drawing was my escapism. I would read comics all the time as escapism. And then I would also sit there and draw, because, back then, we didn’t have the internet and things like that, so I would plop myself down in front of the TV and, with the television on, I would be doodling. Whenever you would to see a film back then, like The Empire Strikes Back, you couldn’t go on any internet and look up the vehicles or watch clips of it on YouTube; you just came home and replayed those scenes in your head, and drew X-wing fighters and the speeder bikes, and things like that. CBC: Did you get an allowance? Did you earn your own money at all? Michael: Yeah, I did! Wow, that’s an interesting, specific question, Jon… I got an allowance. I think it was five bucks and [pauses]… I blew it all on comics! [laughter] But, the thing is, by the time I got an allowance, when I was 10 or 11 or something, I had a much more sophisticated taste in comics. And the comics that I wanted sometimes weren’t at the store, or I couldn’t keep them, right? There was a comic shop in Hamilton by this time, in the ’80s. And it was within walking distance, downtown, and I would go to this comic shop and I would buy… at the time, Marvel was coming out with direct editions… you know, like reprints of Jim Starlin’s Warlock, and things like that. My big thing was back issues of X-Men, like every child of the ’80s… the John Byrne/Chris Claremont X-Men was it! So, I would go to the shop and blow my $5 going like, “Do I buy four issues off the stands or do I save this and buy this issue of X-Men #127, which is $5 on the wall?” So it was stuff like that. CBC: Did you complete a collection of X-Men? Michael: I had every issue from the John Byrne run. I think #30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Iron Man TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Photo courtesy of Michael Cho.

on me. I think I read every issue of Iron Man for 10 years after that! Muhammad Ali makes a cameo — I can still remember — in that issue. CBC: And it’s Johnny Jr.! How great is that? I was looking through one of your Instagram feeds (or whatever) and you made a post about John Jr.’s Spider-Man, about his distinctive way of drawing kneecaps. Michael: And my thing was that I gravitated toward the way Bob Layton would draw armor. He did shiny stuff with a tech pen so well. That that’s what hit me first. I was like, “Oooo, this stuff looks shiny.” I met Bob Layton years later and told him that. But I’ve always wanted to meet John Jr., you know, to thank him. I met [John Romita] Senior once, because I love his work, too. He was with Steranko and I was chatting with him… and I had that

Photo courtesy of Michael Cho. Daredevil, Amazing Spider-Man, Fantastic Four TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

it’s like #107–143…? This is the super-nerd part of me, right? Where, if you say an issue number, I can tell you what story that is…. because I was that hardcore! So, I collected all of that, and I had some in Mylar bags. And my dad was really mad about it. He forbade me to collect comics, so I would sneak them home under my shirt. But I kept those until I turned about 14 and then sold them all to buy a BMX bike. After that, I never had a long box, and, to this day, I still don’t have one. CBC: Good lord, how do you live? [laugher] Michael: I remember helping my friend J. Bone move years ago and he had long boxes and plastic Tupperware bins full of toys. And I’m like, “I don’t have any of this. I got rid of all this!” I have some loose comics, I kept some stuff from my childhood, including that issue of Iron Man, but the vast majority of stuff I got rid of. I recollected stuff over the years, collected in paperback or trades, for nostalgic purposes. For me, after that initial childhood impulse, it was never about the collecting aspect; it was always about what was inside — the art or the story — so, if I could get it in a format that I could look at it, and it would be better preserved, it would be better than having, you know, a beat-up copy of Amazing Spider-Man #33 (or something) in the Mylar bag. CBC: When did it become about the art specifically when you started zeroing in a particular style? Did you zero in on John Byrne’s style and try to emulate it? Michael: One hundred percent, yeah. There was something about that era, and it is was like a direct line from Bob Layton and his inking with a tech pen, to Terry Austin’s inks, and then finding John Byrne, who, at the time I said, ”He just draws better than everybody else.” I would also read or hear from the other guys about artists I should check out, for example, so I would look at Marshall Rogers and people like that, and these guys sort of fit into this mold that I loved back then. I remember, in grade five, copying John Byrne’s drawings. And I still have this party trick that I bust out for friends where I copy John Byrne’s signature from the ’80s and it’s dead-on from that era. And J. Bone, who’s like a huge John Byrne nerd, I often joke with him at cons, going like, “John Byrne was here and he left this for you, J.,” and it’s a fake signature I did. And J., who is an even bigger John Byrne nerd, says, [mimicking] “This isn’t John Byrne because he doesn’t sign his name like this now.” CBC: Fellow Canadian, right? Michael: Yeah! And I remember he had this huge influence

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

on me because he had cleanliness that I wanted in art as a child. It’s complete. The storytelling is good; the figures are charming and attractive. And then I remember vividly, I went to the comic shop and a guy told me, “You should check out Daredevil by Frank Miller.” Now, Frank Miller is the opposite. I couldn’t understand it when I first saw it. And I had a buddy, my best friend in high school and grade school, who also drew, and we got on Daredevil because we could both appreciate Frank Miller. But other guys I knew could not. They were, like, “George Pérez is the best,” and I’d be, “No, you just don’t have the eyes to see that this guy Miller’s a great storyteller.” And that was an eye-opening moment where you realize it’s not about how clean the artwork is; it’s about how well the story is told. And I loved Miller for years after that. CBC: How old were you when you encountered Frank Miller? Michael: Probably 12 or 13. He was on that first run of Daredevil, and I picked up the issue that had Daredevil pointing the gun at the viewers, saying “No More Mister Nice Guy.” It was a Punisher crossover and I couldn’t understand Miller. “This guy draws so rough. He can’t draw! But I love this story!” I remember I couldn’t figure it out. You try to take what makes it effective apart in your head. Why is this working? Why does this inker ink so rough? It’s the opposite of Terry Austin’s clean style. And why am I so attracted to this? The figures are like Gil Kane figures, but a little rougher. But the storytelling is like nothing I’ve ever seen before. Miller was on a roll back then. I re-read those about 10 years ago and I thought, “Man, every issue, you feel the palpable energy of a guy who’s getting better and better and now he’s decided, ‘I’m gonna spread my wings and just fly and try crazy stuff,’ and he’s pulling it off!” CBC: I remember my little brother kept raving about Miller and, when I was in New York City visiting him, I sat in his baking

Above: A very young Michael Cho at the drawing board.

Above: Cho first picked up Frank Miller’s Daredevil with this issue, #184 [July 1982]. Below: Cho encountered the work of Kirby and Ditko first in these Pocket Books editions [1977–79] reprinting the early Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four.

Above: Alex Toth’s exquisite two-color work adorned a Whitman Books juvenile book adapting the Western TV show, Maverick [1959]. (Cover art by unknown.) Below: Cho’s own wonderful two-color work is on full display in his Back Alleys and Urban Landscapes [2012], a beautiful 80-page book published by Drawn and Quarterly that collects many drawings of his beloved, beautiful city of Toronto.

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Maverick TM & © Warner Bros. Television. Back Alleys and Urban Landscapes artwork © Michael Cho.

apartment, read them all in a row, in one sitting, and was completely blown away. Well, it was a cinematic approach rarely seen in super-hero comics. Steranko was the closest… Obviously, Eisner had done it, but not with super-heroes. Michael: As a kid, I didn’t know who Will Eisner was at the time, when I was 10 or 12, which was when I first saw this stuff. You realize, years later, Miller is learning from Eisner and his storytelling techniques in The Spirit. As a kid, I remember reading those and going, “Look at these repeated panels!” The only way I could describe it for other people was that Miller was fearless as an artist, in that most artists do not want to draw something if they can’t pull it off. Know what I mean?

They don’t want to try a panel with a weird angle that they can’t draw, and they would stick to the safe thing that they know. But Frank Miller never did that. He would draw stuff that he clearly did not have the technical skill to draw, but he still did it because it would suit the story. I would look at his drawing of a perspective shot where someone is falling… Daredevil’s falling from the top of a building and the perspective is all wrong and the shadows are all wrong, and it’s not all there and it’s kind of rough. But it worked for storytelling purposes and It made that story move so much better. Nobody else would do this. No one would attempt to draw it when they really couldn’t. They wouldn’t risk looking foolish. But Miller would, and I loved that about him. CBC: When did Kirby come in to play? When did you get introduced to Kirby? Michael: I was always aware of Kirby, since I was a kid. Along with the comics I got off the rack, we’d go sometimes to a used bookstore or a comic shop, and they’d have paperback collections… the Pocket Books…? They’d reprint the first six issues of Fantastic Four in a paperback format or the three volumes of Spider-Man reprints where they had all the Ditko Spider-Mans…? Well, I read those at the same time I was reading new stuff and the weird thing was, even though I was exposed to really good, early Marvel Kirby and loved these stories, I didn’t like this art, you know…? And it was the same with the Ditko Spider-Mans. I’d be thinking, “I love these stories, but I don’t like this art.” Then, occasionally, in those Kirby volumes… like there was a collection of Captain America — and, in the middle of the Tales of Suspense reprints, George Tuska takes over for a run, and I didn’t like those stories. I recognized that those stories were not as exciting as the Kirby ones. At the time, I thought it was Stan Lee who was the driving genius, and it was many, many years later that I learned it was Kirby. That’s what was missing from those George Tuska issues. Kirby made the stories better. When I’m a kid who’s into John Byrne, Kirby’s figures are way more exaggerated, you know, so I didn’t really clue in to Kirby. But I’ll tell you something really weird: I made a list once, as a kid, of my favorite comic artists and then made a list of my least favorite comic artists. My least favorites were Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and a bunch of these other old guys. And by the time I was 25, that list had literally flipped. Jack Kirby had become my favorite artist. And Steve Ditko was number two, and so forth. It goes to show how much evolution happens from

Noel Sickles portrait © Michael Cho. All other items TM & © their respective copyright holders.

when you’re a child to when you’re a grown-up. CBC: For me, Kirby was grotesque — and I mean that not as a pejorative necessarily — but it was weird… And yet it was very compelling. Ditko, there was nothing like him… Michael: And it’s of a different generation. I would compare it, for example, that “Kirby tech,” his machines and stuff, is of a specific era, and the “Wally Wood tech” is of a certain era, and then came the post-Star Wars, ’80s John Byrne tech. So, as a kid from the ’80s, when I would see machines that Kirby would make with these squiggly lines, I would be thinking, “What is this? John Byrne would draw it so much better.” And I didn’t see, at the time, the genius of his work. CBC: Was there a moment when you really saw Alex Toth? When you said, “Boy, this is it!” Did you first see him channeled through anybody else? Michael: I’ll tell you — and this is going to sound weird — but I’m not a big Toth guy. And this has been a bone of contention with a few other friends of mine who say, “What?!” Now, I love Toth and respect him, but he was never a formative influence, even after I went back and revisited his work as a grown-up. I get it, but it was never a formative influence for me. My first exposure to Toth was when he did a Superman Annual [#9, Sept. 1983]. I think it was a Superman/Batman annual that was inked by Terry Austin in the ’80s. And that was my first exposure to him. People had told me, “You should check out Toth!” The guys at the comic book shop were like, “Toth is a really great artist! You should check out this guy!” And I liked it, but it was kinda simplistic and I didn’t quite get it as a kid. Then my second exposure to the Toth school is David Mazzucchelli in Batman: Year One, and my reaction to that was, “This guy is awesome.” Mazzucchelli was another one of those guys who my high COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

school friends would argue about, going on about whatever the flavor of the moment was, and I was saying, “No, this stuff moves, this stuff is incredible art.” But they couldn’t get it. They thought it was just rough edged and couldn’t figure it out. I remember, as a teenager, when I saw his work, I had already given up on super-hero comics and had moved on. By the time I was 15 or 16, I stopped reading super-hero comics and started reading the Hernandez Brothers, Love and Rockets. And then, one day, I was at a store, and they had an issue of Daredevil [#227, Feb. 1986], and I thought, “What the heck. It will give me something to read.” And this was the first issue of “Born Again,” and I came home and I thought, “Frank Miller is back… but who’s this artist he’s working with who draws a bit like Gene Colan? That’s kind of interesting.” And the story hooked me and I read the whole run, and I was blown away at the evolution of this artist. So, when he went to do Year One, I saw him make another leap, and that’s when I saw the Toth in his work. It clued into me. There’s a lot of simplification here, but there’s incredible, perfect black-spotting and cartooning, which is like an elegant distillation of reality. And for years, as a teen, I would try to copy and try to reverse

This page: A huge influence on the artistry of Michael Cho is Noel Douglas Sickles [1910–1982], whose chiaroscuro inking approach continues to be admired today. Above is Cho’s portrait of the man. At top is Sickles’ illos for Reader’s Digest Condensed Books [1955]. Below is undated Sickles sketch.

Michael: Yes. Don’t get me wrong, Jon. I’m a Toth fan; he’s just not an influence. I discovered the prime stuff that you’re talking about the… the Whitman book illustrations, the Maverick stuff and all that… I got those well after I was into this other stuff, like Sickles, Caniff, and Robbins. So, as much as I appreciate Toth, and as much as I can see the genius in him, he’s not a formative influence for me. I didn’t absorb his stuff and make it a part of my DNA, you know. I discovered him later in life. I still refer back to (because they’ve been reprinted a million times now) the romance comics, the ’50s Standard Comics that he did, where they bleach it out the colors and reprint them. And I have all that, and I still refer back to them once in a while. Back in the day, when I would catch romance assignments for illustration, I would look for, “How do I condense this down into something that’s an elegant image?” And I would just refer back to that stuff and try to absorb some more out of it. It just wasn’t formative for me. I respect him and I love his work. I don’t mean to say I disrespect him or dismiss him or anything like that. I love his work, but it just wasn’t part of my DNA. Sickles and Crane and Caniff got there first. CBC: I’m sorry to belabor this. I think part of my astonishment is that there’s — not a veneer, exactly… there’s a shimmer of romance in your work that is very Toth-like to me. Subtle. It’s not only with the blacks and the whites and the contrasts and all that that there’s character in it. There’s a verve, if you will. I don’t even know how to properly say it, but I mean it as the greatest of compliments that your work has esprit de corps that says you like what you’re doing, I guess. [chuckles] Michael: Thanks, Jon! Years ago, there was a Comics Journal interview with John Severin… I love John. I love all the EC guys. And John Severin said

Daredevil TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Batman TM & © DC Comics.

engineer how Mazzucchelli did this and I would just think, “Maybe I will ink it rougher. I will ink it with a rougher brush.” But I couldn’t get it to work and I was like, “I don’t get it. How does he do this? How are these drawings so perfect?” So, that was, I guess, my exposure to Toth in a second-hand way. CBC: I’m aghast at Toth not being a greater influence because I was looking at your — is it the University of Toronto pieces…? — these illustrations that you did and two-tone, two-color stuff and what you did in Shoplifter… and especially the still-lifes you did in the Drawn & Quarterly book, the Back Alleys. I see Toth exploding everywhere. Michael: Do you know what I see in those? I see Noel Sickles. CBC: [Animated] Well, Mike, where do you think Toth got it? [laughs] Michael: Exactly. That’s what I’m pointing out here. I got into Toth much later after I saw Noel Sickles’ work. And I also got into Frank Robbins and into Roy Crane, another big influence on me. At the time, they weren’t reprinting a lot of Toth stuff. The stuff is scattered… When I got into it, I had already learned a lot of those lessons, so what I saw with Toth was the influence of Sickles and Crane: he. He evolved obviously and did his own thing with it. But he just didn’t hit me with that same revelation like the first time I saw Sickles’ work where I went “Ahhhh, that's how you do it!” So, a lot of the stuff you mentioned comes from my deep love of Noel Sickles. CBC: Right, and then, of course, there’s Caniff, this whole family tree that comes out of Sickles. But anyway… I’m not really defending… [abruptly] No, I am defending Toth! Toth could do a drama in such a minimalistic way, with just a slight turn of a frown or hint of a grin that just continues to blow me away. As I’m sitting here for hours going through your work… Did you ever see Toth’s Maverick job…? Michael: Oh, yes. CBC: So you’ve seen the two-tone illustrations that Toth did. #30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photos courtesy of Michael Cho.

something to the effect of, “People ask me, ‘Why are your figures so charming? Why are they so alive?’” And he said, “You don’t understand. To me, they’re not drawings; they’re real people. I’m drawing people. I understood what he meant. For me, drawing isn’t so much a technical exercise as I’m trying to capture a character, you know? And to capture my love of that character. Whether it’s super-heroes or something in a slice-oflife story that I’ve written myself. I’m trying to capture them as living, breathing people. CBC: Well done, Mike. So, your father had the convenience store in Hamilton, correct? And then Toronto… when did you go to town? Michael: I went to Toronto to attend art college. CBC: So, you’re a bit older… but did you… Hamilton’s pretty near Toronto, I assume? Michael: Yeah, you could take a bus and it’s only an hour away. Toronto had a really great art college: the Ontario College of Art and Design (which, back then, was just called the Ontario College of Art). CBC: Before we get into the college years, did you get on a bus and go to the Silver Snail [comic shop]? Michael: In my teenage years, I would go to Toronto, like kids in New Jersey would go to New York. It was that way with going to Toronto from Hamilton. So, we would take a Saturday trip to buy Doc Martens boots or records. On Queen Street, in Toronto, they had a bunch of comic shops — the Silver Snail… the Beguiling might have been there… and one called Dragon Lady Comics. The street also had a used sci-fi bookstore that was great. So I’d go there to pick up comics, stuff like that, along with my friends who wanted to buy 12-inch singles, for instance. CBC: It seems almost symbolic that you sold your X-Men collection to buy… what’d you say, boots? Michael: No, I bought a BMX bike. CBC: Oh, a BMX bike. Michael: It was just a teenage thing, you know. CBC: Were you making like, “I’m going to be a teenager. I’m not going to be a nerd…” Michael: It wasn’t that at all. It was literally what I said. You know, when you start as a kid… My daughter collects these K-Pop photo cards, where she’s like, “I’ve seen the value of these things online. If I sell this one, it’s $65. So it’s as good as money. It’s an investment.” It’s a kid’s way of having an investment portfolio. And it was like that with me with comics. I thought that if I ever decide to part with my John Byrne X-Men, I know that #137, the “Death of Phoenix,” is worth a lot. I know it’s worth $20 or something like that. And then I just hit an age where I realized, “You know what? It’s the artwork. It’s not the totemic value of the physical product, the actual physical issue; it’s the artwork inside that matters. So, to me, I don’t really need these. I’ll keep my Art of John Byrne book, but, if I can sell this stuff and make some money, maybe I can buy some records or buy some more Hernandez Brothers comic books, or stuff like that.” I was out of my X-Men phase, so I sold that bunch of stuff. I might have kept a couple of Daredevils, and a few different things for sentimental reasons, but the vast majority I sold. CBC: Right. How was high school for you? Michael: It was good. CBC: Were you popular? Michael: Ehhh… I don’t know if I could say that. High school back then breaks down to jocks, nerds, punks, and preps. I was more in the punk category, so I was more like a rebellious teen. I still have my rebellious side. I had a few friends who I would hang out with, but I was also a nerd, so I drew. I drew COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

posters for our high school dances and things like that, and I got in trouble with teachers. I was interested in The Clash and Sonic Youth… you know, ’80s punk bands… And I would draw and I took myself WAY too seriously, because, by this time I was in high school, I was now reading things that were better and more advanced. I loved Jack Kerouac, like every kid at 16, right? And I was into fine art, and that’s what I wanted to do with my life. And my connection to comics was reading the Hernandez Brothers and weird Fantagraphics books… I read Will Eisner’s Contract with God and I would read Charles Burns in RAW occasionally, as a 16-year-old. And, when Dan Clowes came out with Lloyd Llewellen, I remember reading that and maybe a little bit of Peter Bagge… the comic stuff at that time that was the indie stuff, right? So that had a big, formative influence on me. But my main thing, at that time, was fine arts, because, when I was in grade five, my mom took infinite mercy on me and signed me up for a Saturday afternoon art class, because she knew I liked to copy comic books. I could trace a drawing like I was Rich Buckler. And I had an interest in art and she signed me up for this class when I was in grade five and, when I went there, the first thing we had to do was draw a still-life in charcoal and that opened up a whole new thing for me. And, after that, on the next Saturday afternoon, we had to copy a Georges Seurat painting and a Monet painting… and I learned to paint in oils. After that, I was off and flying. I wanted to be an oil painter. So my connection to comics was only on the indie side as a snot-nosed, pretentious teenager. “I’m not into the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles; I’m into fine art, contemporary art, and I read indie comics, like Spiegelman’s RAW.” [chuckles] CBC: Were you dating? Michael: Yeah, but not much. I think I had one girlfriend in high school, so it was kind of lonely as a teen. I guess I would be considered “emo” today (or whatever), and I wrote bad poetry. I had a grade ten assignment, a creative writing assignment, and I wrote a play, a one-act play about the death of French Impressionist painter Frédéric Bazille. [Jon chuckles] And Claude Monet gets together with Paul Cezanne

Above: Cho, the young artist, perhaps betraying a wee bit of teenage angst. Previous page: On left is Frank Miller (pencils) and Klaus Janson (inks) portrayal of “The Man without Fear,” drawn for the magazine, Amazing Heroes #4 [Sept. 1981]. On right is David Mazzucchelli’s 1986 Batman: Year One illustration used to promote his and writer Frank Miller’s ground-breaking four-part comic book series. Below: Young Michael Cho (left) with his grandmother and father.

This page: Four examples of Cho’s large-canvas paintings produced after his days as an art student as the Ontario College of Art & Design University.

All artwork © Michael Cho.

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Back Alleys and Urban Landscapes artwork © Michael Cho. Photo courtesy of Michael Cho..

and Albert Sisley to discuss the meaning of life. “Now that my friend is dead, who is my patron...” That kind of shit. CBC: [Laughs] Because, of course, you knew all these complicated emotions at that age. Of course. Michael: Can you just imagine being 16 and being that pompous to do this for an English assignment? CBC: Wonderful. Michael: That’s the kind of kid I was…. It’s hilarious. CBC: So, what did your parents think of this creative drive? You said your mother had her own interest in fine art…. Did your dad just scratch his head? Michael: He completely could not understand it and he tried to beat it out of me. Well, not beat it out of me physically. He just couldn’t understand that I liked to draw. And, one time, I remember I was drawing in front of the TV watching and he asked to see what I had drawn and I’d copied a panel of a Captain Marvel story. It was a deadon copy in pencil, and he looked at it, and was, “Mmmmm.” But he couldn’t figure it out why I did this. To my dad, who was of that generation, his favorite saying was, “Artists starve.” There was no point in going into art, you know. He had no clue about art as a career path. He would ask me, “So you want to be a fine artist. What is that? Is it those places at the mall where they have pictures in frames…? Is that where you’re hoping to work?” And he couldn’t understand that I wanted to be a painter, you know? But, when I applied for art college, my dad was gracious enough to let me apply. And, as much as I thought he was being, you know, a dick and giving me too much hassle at the time, at my age now, I know how much of a leap it was for him to have sat there and say, “Okay, fine. My son wants to go to art college, I’ll let him do it.” I remember, when I got my acceptance into art college, I went in for my portfolio review at OCAD, and my high school art teacher told me, “Oh you’ll never get in. It’s so hard.” And my high school self was determined,: “I’ll take that as a challenge. I’m going to get into this school just to spite you.” So I had prepared my batch of oil paintings and I went to this portfolio review, and I remember sitting there with my little pile of oil paintings, and there was this other applicant who walked in. He had a leather jacket, a pony tail, and this gigantic portfolio case. And I was, “Oh, crap, I have to go up against this guy? This guy looks like a real COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

artist.” So I was nervous as hell. I’m wondering what I’m doing here, and we went in, set up our stuff, and this guy brings out his paintings, and I looked across at them. And his paintings are garbage! I went, “Okay. I can do this.” [laughs] So the instructors came by and one of them was Graham Coughtry, who was a very noted Canadian painter, and he saw my work and asked some questions. Then he told me, “I’m looking forward to teaching you next year.” And, after that, I went out to use the pay phone to call my dad. I said, “I’m in! I think they’re going to let me in.” And my dad said, “That’s great, but never forget that an artist is never as good as a businessman…” [Jon laughs] And I was like, “Way to deflate me, Dad.” So that was my dad’s point of view on art…. CBC: Is he still around? Michael: No, he passed away two years ago during the pandemic. But the nice thing… the moral of the story is, when I graduated from art college, I never borrowed money from them, never went back home to live with my parents, and, when I first made some money, I paid for a nice little trip for my mom and dad, a bus tour of the Ontario countryside with other Koreans. I paid for that by myself. And, after that, every time I’d

Above: Michael (left) and his parents. Below: A profusely illustrated, long interview with Cho is in Daniel Zimmer’s Illo. magazine, #1 [Fall 2009], which can be found at issuu.com. Bottom: Another evocative illustration from Back Alleys and Urban Landscapes.

go see them, I’d buy them lunch. And, when I got engaged, he told me, “Son, I never approved of your decision to go into art. I didn’t understand it. I didn’t see why you would want to do that, but you never asked me for money. I think you did alright.” Now, it wasn’t a big moment, because I had already given up on any need to have parental validation, you know. I knew what I wanted to do and I was going to do it, whether I succeeded or failed. But my relationship with my dad was great for years when I was an adult, because I would always take care of them. I was a good son. My dad, he had Alzheimer’s for a long time before he passed. Every weekend, I’d come by with my kids and my wife and take him to a nice restaurant, buy him lunch, and take care of him. CBC: So when you were in high school, you did mention a couple of friends who are artists. Did you have fellow nerdy friends who… Michael: Oh, yeah. I always had one friend who drew when I was growing up, and, you know, it was in whatever neighborhood I was in, whether it was outside of Toronto, the Maritimes, or in Hamilton. But my best friend at the time was a guy named Nick Veliotis. I met him in seventh grade, when we were all in the gifted class, and every student there was new and nobody knew one another at all. And he was this Greek kid and we got partnered up to do an exercise to learn about each other, and we had to ask each other questions. And he said, “I draw.” And I said, “I draw!” And then we were best friends for, like,

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Spirit, Comics and Sequential Art TM & © Will Eisner Studio, Inc.

Above: In honor of The Spirit’s 75th anniversary, Cho drew the 2015 Comic-Con International souvenir book cover. Talking with Charles Brownstein for that effort, Cho said of Will Eisner, “A lot of the language of storytelling that he invented along the way… is so ingrained in comics forms that if you’re not cribbing it directly from Eisner, you’re cribbing it from someone who cribbed it from Eisner.” Below: In his formative years, Cho read the Eisner textbook.

forever. I still talk to him occasionally. And he was the guy who would make this journey with me — from John Byrne to Frank Miller and then to Mazzucchelli — so he got it, you know? And the great thing with him was that he could draw vehicles and I could draw people. So he was really great at drawing tech, great at designing cars, spaceships, guns, monsters… and I could draw people and wildlife and trees, and things like that…. CBC: So did you have classmates who would say, “Hey, Mike, draw me something! Draw me a girl!” Or anything like that? Michael: Oh, yeah, all the time. I was in grade two drawing a tattoo on somebody’s arm with a Sharpie, you know. And then, in high school, it was, “We need an invite for this. Can you draw one?” And it’s a way to impress girls. CBC: Is your stuff in the yearbook? Michael: [Laughs] I don’t think so, because, by the time I was in high school, I was a really rebellious kid. I was always a straight-A student, but the only time I’ve ever gotten a C in my life was in art class and it was because I would relentlessly fight with the teachers. My first high school art teacher was a guy who taught chemistry and his name was Mr. Morrison, and he decided to teach art. I got along with him because of the fact that I just took pity and thought, “Okay, you know, I’m not going to give you much trouble.” But, in my second high school year, my art teacher was a guy who was a failed illustrator and he was constantly drumming into us, “You’ll never make it as an illustrator. It’s so hard.” And I was like, “It was hard for you, but it’s not going to be hard for everybody, you know.” I was constantly, like every rebellious, pretentious teen, checking his bona fides. “Who are you to tell me this?” And then, I would be sent to the office, you know, to plead my case to the principal. But he did like me and I would see him years later, at conventions and things like that, you know, and he’d come by my table and I apologized for how rude I was in high school. So I never did anything in the yearbook because I just rebelled against that stuff. I was supposed to hate yearbooks, you know? CBC: Okay. Did you drink and drug and smoke, and all that wicked stuff? Or did you stay away from that? Michael: I did some drinking in high school. Like, occasionally, I would go to school drunk. And then, at lunchtime, we would go sometimes to the bowling alley near us, where they would serve us occasionally (if you could pull it off). And, me being Asian, it’s hard for people to card me, you know, because they can’t tell how old I actually was. So, I would be the guy who they would ask to get a case of beer for a party. I would do that. Plus, my dad, by this time, had moved on and now owned a bar, and he was pretty lax, really cool about this. He would be like, “Well, you kids are going to a party, so do you want a case of beer?” We would be like, “Yeah!” I was a snot-nose kid and I never got along with those churchgoing Koreans because, you know, I was too much of an idiot rebel. So I would come to school drunk sometimes. I would party. Never did any real drugs, just small-time stuff. But, but yeah, there was some exposure to that in my teenage years. And certainly a lot more in art college. CBC: So you got into the college. Did you have any aspirations to be a comic book artist or illustrator? Michael: Yeah. My order of career choices goes like this: When I was five, I wanted to build a giant robot and take over the world because I was watching cartoons. Then, when I started getting exposed to comic books, I wanted to be a comic book artist. Then, when I took that grade five Saturday afternoon art class, I met a woman who was an illustrator and I didn’t know what an illustrator was. I didn’t know what that meant. And she said, “You draw for books,” and she did children’s book art and

Photos courtesy of Michael Cho.

some magazine assignments. And I was like, “I want to be an illustrator.” And then, when I was in high school and I was painting a lot and learning about fine art, I wanted to be a fine artist. So I wanted to be all those things. And my one of my earliest desires was I wanted to be a cartoonist, a comic book artist, and I was quite serious about it. I read How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way when I was like 13 or something like that. I ordered it from the comic shop, and I read Eisner’s [Sequential Art] book. Those are the only two books out at that time, right? Eisner’s book on graphic storytelling and How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way, and I made my own comics… I learned how to do lettering and things like that, but then it sort of fell by the wayside as I pursued fine art. CBC: What were the comics that you hand-made? Michael: When I was in grade three, on a folded sheet of typing paper, I created my own super-heroes and drew a 19page story (because, at the time, some comics were 19 pages). And I inked it with a ballpoint pen or a tech pen, and I did this for three months, and kept a deadline. I put out three issues of this thing, this hand-drawn thing, and it was like a little anthology of super-hero comics. Very, very John Byrne-derived, you know? And I kept up the schedule for three months until my mom found them one day while she was cleaning and thought it was some junk and threw them out. And after that, for years, I could never commit again, I could never complete a comic. It wasn’t until my 20s when I actually finished another comic. CBC: Were they characters that you created? Michael: Yeah, they were. They were characters I created. I remember what happened was that I was coming home from like taekwondo class and I passed by the comic book shop and, I went in and bought four comics, like I usually do. I was on the bus reading them and I didn’t like any of them. They were all garbage, and I remember being on the bus thinking, “I’m so dissatisfied. These comics I bought this week suck!” And then this light bulb went off in my head and I decided, “Well, you should just make your own comics.” And it was as if I’d invented the idea of making comics, you know? [chuckles] And it was like such a revelatory moment on the bus going, “Oh, my god! You’re right! I can make my own comics. I could draw and create my own characters. I could write my own story!” And I went home and I immediately started creating some super-heroes and I wrote a story… It was very, very Stan Lee. There was a super-hero has a secret identity, but he has a little flaw. And there’s a scientist who made a robot that it was like going to take over the world, but the robot has a flaw, just like a Stan Lee story. It’s not waterproof, right? So, in the course of the big fight, he punches the robot into the reservoir (or something) and then it electrocutes itself. And I thought that this is a great story, you know. And I created a flying super-hero and I did another one where it’s more a Daredevil-type of character, a grounded, street-level super-hero. So these are all my own characters, though I never did a Batman homage… CBC: Did you have names? Michael: Yeah, though the names elude me right now. One was a flying guy called Sonar or something like that, which I thought was a really cool name and, at 10, you think, “That’s the greatest name ever!” The Daredevil knock-off, I don’t remember, but I know he had a mask like Hawkeye. CBC: You’re an adult. You can look back and not be cruel about your own talent. Were you any good? Michael: I was good for that age, I think. I see this now with new lenses, because I have a daughter who draws and she draws beautifully, but she’s of her generation, so she can color things digitally. And she’s very comfortable working with COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

electronic tools as well as traditional tools. She draws a little better than me in some ways. But I took it really seriously. I tried to learn anatomy… though I never actually learned anatomy, ever. Still don’t know anatomy… But like, I would do roughs in pencil and build the construction lines, you know… do the egg for the head, then build the spine, and attach the limbs, and then go over a little bit tighter. Then I would do the outlines and stuff. I think I was pretty good. In school, I was always considered either the number one or number two artist. I got a scholarship at one point… I won an award when I was three, man! [laughter] I got that Manila envelope full of stuff! So I think I was good for my age and I’m glad… I’ll always be thankful to my mom for signing me up for that Saturday afternoon art class, because that exposed me to a whole different world of art that I still tap into these days, as opposed to someone who just drew comics and never got exposed to anything else. CBC: Did you did you have a moment where design all of a sudden came into play? When you had an epiphany about balance and all that? Michael: I think design was always part of it. I cared about design, as well. I was a visual kid, you know? Like, as a kid, I’m looking at animation and comics, and then, as a teenager, I’m looking at fine arts and design, and paperback design, magazine design, environmental design… Like you’re watching Blade Runner and thinking, “God, these designs are incredible!

This page: Photos of Cho with his spouse, the artist Claudia Dávila, who, an online bio states, “writes, illustrates, and designs books for kids of all ages, with stories and themes that encourage children to be strong, thoughtful, compassionate, and responsible people.”

This page: Michael Cho and Claudia Dávila have two kids together, and all are depicted by Cho in these illustrations. Dávila’s online bio says of the family, “They spend many evenings together drawing, sketching, and making up funny characters and super silly stories.” Claudia has written and illustrated three children’s books and illustrated many other books for kids, including the multiple award-winning Child Soldier [2015].

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Artwork © Michael Cho.

Why does this work? Why does this resonate with me? Why is it so evocative?” And then, as a fine artist, when I’m looking at fine art, I’m making my way through art history, figuring out what are the elements of the Renaissance… what makes up the Baroque period? What makes up Impressionism… all the way to contemporary art. And you’re trying to think through all the evolutions that are happening and, “Why is this stuff clicking with me now?” You know, that kind of thing. So, design is always a part of art, it’s never a secondary thing. But when I went to art college, I took contemporary art after the foundation year, when you do life drawings and things like that. I took contemporary art and… it’s not rooted in design, but it’s based on ideas, you know? “What is art?” And it makes you question what is effective art. So, design is part of that. CBC: Where are you now in your career? Are you a commercial artist? Do you have aspirations for self-expression through your graphic novels, as you did with Shoplifter? Michael: Yeah. The market’s changed so much and it continues to evolve. When I came out of art college, I had aspirations to be a contemporary fine artist, and so I had a little loft studio, and all I did was paint giant canvases. But I was broke. So, I decided to lean back on my secondary love, which is illustration, and I got some gigs doing illustration, got paid, and it was just a remarkable thing to get paid for creating art. And that led to an internal conflict

about whether or not I wanted to be a fine artist or whether I wanted to be an illustrator. I vividly remember one day working on this oil painting, this really large oil painting, thinking, “I’ll never get to sell this. I can barely make rent. I’m eating ramen all the time.” But I was enjoying illustration work. At the time I had decided, “I’m going to do illustration to pay the rent while I work on painting these canvases.” And I was fully aware, at that point, that painting was out of style in terms of contemporary art. It’s more about installation or conceptual work. But I was thinking that illustration is what I did as a day job to finance painting. But then I realized that illustration, in itself, can be rewarding artistically and I hated the idea of having a day job that took up eight hours of my life every day, draining me mentally and physically so that I could paint for three or four hours in the evening. And I thought, “Well, if I can turn illustration into my art, I’ll go into illustration.” And I remember writing on the wall of my studio that this was going to be my decision: I was going to be an illustrator and to treat that as my art. So I went and did magazine and book illustration, and slowly built up a career in that. And I thought that that’s what I wanted to do with my life. Illustration paid the bills really well, and it was very rewarding. But illustration is dying in the 21st century, at least the kind of illustration that I like to do, which is editorial illustration, magazine work. And I also love comics. I made many friends who were cartoonists and, because my style was, in illustration, very comics-similar, they were like, “Why don’t you draw comics?” So I started trying to do more of that. Editorial illustration nowadays is almost dead. The kind of assignments you’d get for The New Yorker or drawing for Time, Newsweek, or Rolling Stone…I mean, back in the day, that was an incredibly viable career path. But now, you know, all those things are supplanted by aggregated news feeds and things like that online. So there isn’t really a market for that and I spend most of my time now doing comic work. CBC: And most of that time in comics doing covers? Michael: Yeah. But it wasn’t always by choice to I do covers. When I started out, I wanted to do comics, but I was really hesitant about doing super-hero work because, as I used to say, “ I like drawing super-heroes two days out of the week and the other five days I want to do something else.” I come from that indie path where I want to draw, for lack of a better word, just straight fiction, as opposed to genre comics. (I don’t mean to disparage comics in like super-hero comics, in any way, but I just can’t think of another way to describe this, you know?) I was a big fan of the Fantagraphics artists and I thought that was what I wanted to do in comics. And so I tried to go down that path, but when you get married and you have kids, living on government grants and working on indie comics for no money is not that viable to support a family. So, since I could do super-hero work, after I did Shoplifter, I remember Axel Alonso contacted me about doing some stuff and Tom Brevoort at Marvel contacted me to do some covers, and I started in that direction. I was thinking, “Well, I’d already done a couple of small comics projects drawing interiors, and I was going to do more of that.” But then we had another baby and I was like, “There is no way.” As slow as I am on interiors, I couldn’t possibly do that, so I’ll just do covers if they want me to do covers.” And they were happy to keep throwing me more covers. CBC: I do want to get back to chronology, but I wanted to ask about 2013. You finished Shoplifter, your debut graphic novel. Then you start talking about adapting Hamlet…? Michael: When did I tell you this? CBC: No, you didn’t. I read it in other interviews. I think you

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Detective Comics, Batman, Robin TM & © DC Comics.

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Batman TM & © DC Comics. Black Widow, Iron Man, Captain America, The Thing TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Above: Cho’s take on the classic Detective Comics #31 [Sept. 1939] cover, featuring The Batman. Previous page: Ye Ed’s favorite Cho work, the artist’s brilliant Detective #1000 “1950s variant cover” in various stages of completion. Below: Ahoy, Albert Moy!.

“This here’s an example of exactly what I’m talking about. You know, he’s great at both and he doesn’t have to pick.” There was a reissue of Batman: Year One, and, in the back, Mazzucchelli wrote a little two-page comic about what Batman means to him, and it’s a modern thing, right, something he had written like 10, 15 years after doing Year One, and the love was right there. It was basically a summation that super-heroes are real when they’re drawn and in black-&-white and ink. And I understood that. When I met Mazzucchelli, in 2007, it was at the New York Comic-Con, and I was there with a bunch of other guys, like Nick Derrington and Eric Wight. We all knew each other because we all drew in a similar vein at the time. And we thought, “Mazzuchelli’s here. We should go meet him.” And we were, “Okay, who’s going to talk to him?” Eric says, “You should, Mike, because you talk good.” And we met him and he was super-nice, super-sweet, super-supportive. He wanted to see what we were working on and he checked out all our portfolios and said, “You guys are good.” It was a moment of validation. Mazzucchelli had these little Batman drawings there that he had just done for the show in a little portfolio. I think I’ve seen several of them pop up again online, you know, and they’re in his newer style, which clearly changed and evolved. And it was not the same as when he was younger. He had a different view of Batman, but the love was still there. And you could sense that the joy and the charm and the adoration of making this kind of art, tapping into that childhood joy, and I hope that my work evokes a similar quality. CBC: I think your Detective Comics #1000 cover is one of the greatest super-hero covers. Because it’s funny, it nails the ’50s, and exudes the joyful kookiness of super-heroes. Plus it’s also just a really good drawing! A solid art job. [They schedule the next interview session.] All right, I had a lot of fun. Thanks, Mike. were estimating 700 pages at the time, which I would kill to Michael: My pleasure, Jon. You know, I got to tell you, read, just as much as I would kill for a Cho Fantastic Four story I have this issue beside me of Comic Book Artist [Vol. 2, arc. You and I are cut from the same cloth as far as not being #4] where you did an interview with Dar[wyn Cooke]. And I ashamed at all for a love of super-heroes. But I also love the remember reading this thing on a beach in Cuba, your whole indie stuff and I really loved Shoplifter. interview… This was just after I’d met him and before we Michael: You know what the wild thing is? The big thing that made the light switch go on was Mazzucchelli. He could do started hanging out, and it was this profile that made me go, “I should get to know this guy, he’s a lot like me in the way he it. He could do both. He was an absolute top-level super-hero thinks, not just the way he draws.” So, when you wanted to do artist. And then he went on, this interview with me, I thought about Dar’s interview and I did this indie stuff, and then he went and did covers for The was looking at it and realize, “Oh my God! It’s from 2004.” You know, that’s 18 years ago! New Yorker, you know? And when I saw his career path as CBC: I miss him terribly. Yeah, we shared the same last name and he always said we were brothers. I didn’t know he was a kid, I was like, “You don’t going, you know… that was just so sad. have to pick. You can love both things!” When I was 18, Michael: Yeah. He kept it from everybody and just let his closest friends know. So, I know a lot of people were shocked if you loved Seth and loved when the announcement came that he had cancer. And then, Love and Rockets, people just a few days later, he passed. It was like six months from the thought how could you diagnosis. But I’m flipping through this right now as I’m talking possibly be into X-Men? But I liked it all. I love super-hero to you, and I remember this issue of Comic Book Artist vividly. He’s describing his advertising career from years ago. I totally comics. And I genuinely love know what he’s talking about because I did time in advertising it. I don’t love it in an ironic as well, as an illustrator. I’d met him like once or twice when way, you know. And then there were other people who this issue came out and we’d hit it off, and I realized we should hang out more. were like, “If you love Todd CBC: There was a mutual advertising experience which bondMcFarlane or Jim Lee, how ed us. Like Darwyn, I got caught up drinking too much because could you read this lame advertising will chew you up and rip you to shreds, you know? stuff by Adrian Tomine?” I’d say, “Well, no, because of the Michael: What he described as “turd polishing.” That’s exactly right. [laughter] whole spectrum.” And, when [Session ends.] I saw Mazzucchelli, I thought,

Shoplifter © Michael Cho.

CBC: There are two names that I have to bring up, Michael, and we started talking about one of them at the end of our last session. But I want to talk about Bruce Timm first. Was he an influence on you? Did he make an impact on you when you saw his work? Michael: Umm, this is like the Toth answer, right? Where I respect Bruce Timm and I love his work, but there’s no Bruce Timm in me. This is exactly like the Toth thing. I have a huge appreciation for Timm’s work, and I love his Batman: The Animated Series. But don’t consider him a direct influence. I know other artists who are friends of mine who have absorbed some of the lessons from Timm’s work. But I only saw it as a fan. I did not see him as an influence, there wasn’t a conscious effort to try and study his work, or anything like that. I only appreciated it as a fan who saw the cartoons and then the illustrations. I am, however, really indebted to Bruce Timm for one reason: years ago, in my 20s, when I was out of comics, I was picking up an issue of The Jack Kirby Collector (of all things, right?), where I liked Kirby, but didn’t really understand Kirby as much — it was just sort of like a nostalgia thing. “Oh, yeah. There’s Jack Kirby, who created all my favorite super-heroes,” and such, right? And then, inside, there was an illustration of the Black Panther done by Bruce Timm in Jack Kirby’s style. And it was him doing a Kirby homage… and I got it. That was where I got Kirby. Because Timm had broken it down into simpler components and he had taken all the stuff that was intuitive in Kirby and, in this illustration, he had made it zing. So, looking at that illustration and, then right afterwards, an issue of The Avengers #1½, where he had tried to consciously mimic early Marvel Kirby when I saw those two things, they became the Rosetta Stone for me understanding Kirby mechanics. And, after that, I had such a great appreciation for what Kirby did, because I think I saw, “Oh, yeah, that's how it works! Oh, my god, this guy’s amazing!” And the stuff I used to consider grotesque as a kid (as you pointed out last time) or weird became strengths. And I understood some of the shorthand and saw it with better eyes than I

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

initially did. So I’m indebted to Bruce Timm for opening my eyes to the Kirby stuff and making me figure it out. CBC: That’s interesting. Did the fact that Bruce was doing Marvel characters, does that make it more palatable then? I mean, obviously he was known more for the Batman stuff. Michael: Yeah. And, when he did the Batman stuff, I really appreciated it as a fan. Because I thought, “Oh, this is like Fleisher [animated cartoon] Superman.” I could see that and the design having more of an art deco sensibility as opposed to a modern one. And then the economical ways he had found to make dynamic animation. I could really appreciate all that as a fan. And he just drew a great Batman and when I saw the show, I thought it was fantastic. It’s just that until he did Kirby, I didn’t really understand Kirby and it took Bruce Timm to open my eyes. I’ll give you an example of something of Timm’s that I did absorb though: J. Bone and a few other people, like Eric Wight and Darwyn used to try and explain to me this Bruce Timm theory of “Straights versus Curves.” Do you know what this theory is? CBC: No. Michael: Okay. This is really like an esoteric nerd-artist thing. It’s straight lines versus curved lines to generate power. Kirby does this in his illustrations intuitively and it’s brilliant. It always adds zing and energy to the drawing. Bruce Timm has broken this down into almost like a formula to teach animators so that they can take it, so that a whole school of animators could mimic some of the elements of Bruce Timm’s style for animation. The foundation of that, is this concept of straights versus curves. For years, J. Bone tried to explain this to me because he understands Bruce Timm, because he has more of an affinity toward animation. So he would try to explain how straights versus curves work. Eric Wight would try to explain this to me and he broke it down to the simplest terms: he would literally draw a straight line and then draw a curved line. But I still couldn’t figure it out. This went on for years, you know? I just couldn’t understand it. And then, about two years ago, as I was doing an assignment for Marvel, at one point, I figured it out! And it was a eureka moment. As you get older, you have fewer of fewer moments of real discovery in art. And it was like just a thrill. The heavens were singing and I enjoyed the hell out of this job because I finally thought, “Oh, I got it!” I figured it out and it took that long, you know. So, I showed J. Bone my drawings for that (just a few months ago because we hadn’t seen each other during the pandemic) and I said, “Look, remember when you tried to teach me about straights versus curves? Well, take a look at this. What do you think?” He said, “Oh, yeah. I can see what you’re doing. But he wasn’t impressed. I think he was just like “I can’t believe it took you this long.” [chuckles] CBC: I worked as a graphic designer for six or seven years

This page: Imagery from Cho’s evocative graphic novel, Shoplifter [2014], which the artist tantalizingly referred to as “one of several stories I outlined” which he envisions as an interconnected series of stories. Inset left a depiction of the city at night and, below, is a promotional image that expands on one of the book’s interior panels.

This page: Above is the luncheon Toronto Superman Club, with Darwyn Cooke (far right). Next page: Cho gifted these comedic strips to good buddy Darwyn Below: Ye Ed’s CBA V2 #3 [Mar. 2004], our Darwyn Cooke ish, made a big impact on Cho. Bottom: Dar (left) and the gang hanging out.

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Comic Book Artist TM & © Jon B. Cooke.

before I truly understood design. It was because I never went to art school and everything I knew was intuitive… whatever. I was able to absorb techniques on the job. Then I suddenly realized that design was the tension between the organic versus the synthetic. Nature as opposed to man-made. It was a moment that hit me like a ton of bricks and I was never the same after that. And so it’s almost like this is exactly what you’re talking about with the curve being organic, and the straight line being synthetic. Maybe…? Michael: Yeah, you find that kind of contrast thing is what often generates interest in all kinds of art… small versus big, thick versus thin, things like that. Those are concepts, but the contrast is what generates the interest. Coming out of school, some of the first, earliest jobs I did were in design. And I thought I was a good designer, despite the fact that I had no formal training. I came out of art school, I

enjoyed design, and I could absorb what the trends were and what I was interested in. So, I thought, like any punk kid, I’d sit there and go, “Just figure it out as you go along, right?” And then I met my wife and she was a real designer who did book design, working in publishing, and I was collaborating on this film poster with her, when I realized, “Okay, I’m just playing at design, right? I’m like one step above the client who uses Microsoft Word to mock-up something for the designer.” Whereas, my wife is a true designer. CBC: The best advice I ever got from any art teacher ever: “Turn it upside down.” Completely just changed my outlook on it… The other name I wanted to mention somebody we’d already discussed with affection: Darwyn Cooke. Did you absorb anything from Dar? Michael: Yeah. That’s a bit of a weird question, because Darwyn was a close friend of mine. I met him 20 years ago, when he had moved back to Toronto and was sharing a studio space with another friend named Steve Manale. And this is around the time he was just doing Batman: Ego. And Manale was saying, “Hey, you should meet my buddy, Darwyn. You guys will get along because you guys have similar interests.” He liked Kirby, he liked the newspaper strip artists, and all that kind of stuff. Then I was at my local comic shop, The Beguiling, here in Toronto, and on the wall they had put up the original art for Ego because they were having a little exhibition of the pages. I saw these and I was just floored because I thought, “Oh, these are like what I’m doing,” but they were just so much more advanced! And they were bolder. And I was determined to meet this guy. And so, the next day, I went to the studio with a copy of Batman: Ego and, and I showed it to Darwyn, and everyone was laughing because I think I was the first person ever to ask him to sign the book, because it had just hit the shelves. And so, he signed it for me, and then we started chatting, and then he showed me his collection of original art. I think there was a Kirby and a few other things. I liked the vibe of what he had in his collection, and then we got to this Steve Canyon drawing and it was big, like a sheet of giant newsprint. And it was a big head of the character. And I said, “Oh, this is from the chalk talks,” which Caniff used to do in the ’50s, when he would have an audience. Darwyn perked up when he saw that I recognized it and said, “Yeah, it’s from a chalk talk.” So then I was like, “Wow, this is cool. I haven’t seen one of these up close.” And that’s when we hit it off, because we both liked the adventure strip artists like Caniff and Sickles. And then he introduced me to Frank Robbins’ stuff. He said, “You should check out Robbins.” And I said, “What? The guy who did The Invaders?” He said, “You go check out Johnny Hazard, and what he did in the ’40s to the ’60s.” And then the next week I found some 20-year-old stapled together collections of Johnny Hazard. Then I realized, “Oh, I get it. Yeah, this guy’s great.” You know, we were friends ever since despite some ups and downs. And when Dar lived in Toronto, we had a little club where we’d get together every Wednesday. A lot of us in this club of cartoonists lived or worked within a ten-block radius of each other. So we were on College Street and Dar’s house was only a few blocks away. My apartment was only a few blocks away. J. Bone lived a little further away. And then there was the R.A.I.D. studio here in town with cartoonists like Ramon Perez and Andy Belanger, and so forth. Jay Stephens would come to town for this. And we would just get together at our local comic shop, Dragon Lady, a great store whose owner collected Caniff originals and Roy Crane originals. Plus, they used to have a little press in the ’80s, where they put out Bravo for Adventure by Toth. And they used to publish newspaper strip reprints. So

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

Cooke for Hire: “The Final Mission” © Michael Cho.

Above: Sample of Tim's illustration work for the magazine Ares. Inset right: Tim designed this RPG character for TSR, with his illo gracing the packaging.

This page: In 2006, Cho produced seven pages of a “straight-ahead, full-throttle action and kung fu story” called The Grasshopper (two pages above) which he pitched at a comic convention. Here’s hoping he finishes it someday soon! Below: Cho rendering of Darkseid, the great Kirby villain.

draw the call. I’d have the character flying a kite, having a great day, playing Frisbee tag with his dog, or something. And then the phone rings and we cut to the funeral.” And I’d be like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” Or he would sit and artistically break down, every once in a while, things like how to do a street scene in the most economical way. He would do things like, “Okay, so you put this giant fire hydrant for one quarter of the panel, right? And that’s your big foreground object. So you don’t have to draw all this other stuff, but that grounds it. And then you put the horizon at the bottom of the panel so that way you don’t have figures floating around and you don’t have to try to figure out where they go in perspective.” Little tricks like that… or a trick I still use today: how to put a window shadow over the background to unify it across three panels on one tier. Things like that. But Darwyn never, for example, specifically showed me how to ink or anything like that. The most memorable piece of advice he gave me was, one time, he was telling me about how he inks curves, because a long curve with a brush is a really tough thing to pull off, without wiggling, and it takes some confidence. And he’d tell me, “When I do that, I take a deep breath, and then say to myself, ‘Be a man.’ And then I just hit it.” And, to this day, whatever, I have to draw a long curve with a brush, I still sit there, take a breath, and I go, “Just be a man, Cho.” And then I hit it and it always works. So, I think about him whenever I do that. The weird thing is, years later, when I was starting to do stuff for Marvel, I never really got comparisons to Darwyn, but #30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Grasshopper TM & © Michael Cho. Darkseid TM & © DC Comics.

you could go through the back bins and find, you know, “Oh, here’s a copy of Bravo for Adventure. Here’s a collection of Ray Bailey comic strips, and all this really prime stuff.” Looking back, I was just completely lucky to have had that in my neighborhood. So we would meet at Dragon Lady, pick up some comics, talk shit about whatever’s on the stands or in Previews, and then we’d go for lunch at the same restaurant each week, which had horrible food, but had a really nice waitress who would always be very cheery. Her name was Donna and she would always bring us cake and things like that just for free. And it was like a little club of cartoonists, you know, and Dar was the ringleader, because he’s such a larger-than-life figure. Sometimes we’d share our work, sometimes we’d trade our work, and sometimes we would ink stuff together, collaborate or things like that. But, in terms of influence, I was drawing this way already, but I did learn some things from Dar. He had a particular way of emphasizing dynamics and storytelling. So, every once in a while, I would pick his brains or we would all pick his brains about, “How would you do this kind of scene? Like, if you had to do a story and there was a scene where somebody gets a call that his mom’s dying, how would you do it?” Dar would say, “I wouldn’t

of illustration style that I did as well. And I would do these paintings of street scenes, and things like that. I gave some of those to Darwyn, and he saw a lot of those as they were being drawn. And Marcia was saying that seeing that kind of stuff helped him evolve from the early sort-of Bruce Timmstyle to where he eventually ended up toward the end. I didn’t know that at the time, but Marcia told me and I was like, “Oh, I didn’t realize it worked in that direction as well.” Because I would always get the Darwyn comparison. CBC: Quid pro quo. I mean, it’s in the storytelling, too. Can I bitch for a second and say that I don’t see enough of your storytelling, but I guess I’m only a month or so away right? You’re having a Batman: Urban Legend story coming out…? Michael: Yeah, but I’ve done a few more. I put out a graphic novel in 2013 and then, right around that time, my wife and I had our second child and I realized, “Okay, there is no way

Above: Cho rendered a portrait of Hank Williams. Below: Two pages from “Trinity,” a history of the atom bomb, appeared in Cho’s Papercut webcomic for Transmission-X.

All © Michael Cho.

then, when I did DC work, I did. And I particularly was hesitant to do certain DC things because of the comparison I would get to Darwyn, because our styles were somewhat similar. For example, when I started doing these Omnibus covers for DC, they asked me to take over the trade paperback covers for these Omnibuses, after Darwyn drew the hardcovers. And I didn’t really want to do that. I turned it down until I was asked by [then art director] Mark Chiarello as a personal favor. In particular, they asked me to draw the Silver-Age JLA which, of course, Darwyn was famous for. I remember doing a sketch of the cover and sent it along to Steve Manale, who was one of our closest mutual friends, and I said, “What do you think of this sketch of the JLA?” And Steve said, “It’s good.” Then I said, “Does it look like Dar?” And then he paused and said, “Yeah,” because I was drawing Silver Age DC super-heroes and with our styles being somewhat similar, if I was playing with his toys, I was going to get comparisons. So, because of that, I was hesitant to do this kind of stuff, but then I talked to Dar and he told me, “Just do the job,” you know? I still get the comparisons to Darwyn and I don’t mind them, but I work in a lot of different styles and it does rankle a little bit when I’ll do something that is completely like painterly or something, and someone will say, “Wow, it looks like Darwyn.” I’ll go, “What?” Oh, you know, like that makes no sense. But, a little while ago, Darwyn’s wife, Marcia, told me that for all the comparisons I get with Darwyn, he also evolved because of me because I had, at the time, a much more dry-brushy, looser type

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

Above: Calling it a “dream assignment,” Cho produced the book jacket art for the 25th anniversary trade paperback edition of Don DeLillo’s award-winning novel, White Noise, in 2009, for Penguin Classics. Below: For The New Yorker, Cho drew his portrait of R&B singer The Weeknd, in 2015. “I was given a lot of conceptual freedom with this piece,” Cho explained, “and enjoyed layering a variety of mediums in making this one.”

friend who’s an excellent writer named Anthony Falcone, who lives in Toronto, and he worked with me on a couple… like the Batman story. He also wrote the Spider-Man one with me, and then we have two or three other pitches, but those are in various different stages right now, so I don’t know how much I can speak about them. CBC: What was Taddle Creek? Michael: Taddle Creek is a local literary magazine here in town. Like all literary magazines, it cannot survive without government grants and they publish the work of local poets and profiles of local authors, or a piece on some esoterica of the past, along with short stories. And are you asking about my contributions to this magazine? CBC: Of course. Michael: In my earlier career as an editorial illustrator, I had a friend named Tim Davin, one of my favorite art directors of all time… he’s how I met my wife… and he once brought me into an office to talk about some editorial assignments — back in the day when you actually went to a magazine’s offices to talk about an assignment. And his friend was the editor of Taddle Creek and was there looking for an artist to do a comic feature in this magazine, setting aside two pages for a short comic story. So I wrote and drew Taddle Creek’s first comic feature and, over the years, I did a couple more. I’d always fight about page counts. “Can I get two more pages?” And then, every once in a while, one of those would be up for an award. CBC: You won a Silver award in 2007, didn’t you? Michael: Yes. You learned this from Wikipedia…? CBC: And I went through multiple interviews. Michael: I see that entry and they mention that. Yeah, I did win a Silver Award from the National Magazine Awards and got to attend a very fancy dinner, where they had a chocolate fountain. CBC: Somewhere, I read something you said, back in 2007. You said Tim Davin gave you excellent advice. Can you give an example of something he said that sticks with you? Michael: Sure. He was an old school art director. (I saw him actually just a few days ago, when we had lunch.) Tim was one of the first art directors I met and he was a mentor for many years… he still is. I still ask him questions when I have some#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All © the respective copyright holder.

I’m going to be able to draw stories. I will not be able to do a follow-up to this graphic novel right away or anything like that.” So I started doing cover assignments. It allowed me some flexibility in terms of my schedule, with work that’s in and out quickly. And it still scratches that itch to do comic work. Also at the time, my dad had Alzheimer’s and there were a lot of issues with that. So I had to have the flexibility to be able to turn down assignments when the need arose. I’m can’t do a monthly book or a 96-page graphic novel that has a tight deadline. So I did covers, but I always said, “You know, when my second child enters grade school, I would probably get back to doing comics again.” And that happened a year-and-a-half ago, but then we were in the middle of a pandemic! Still, during the pandemic, I started to ramp up again. So I did an eight-page story for an issue of Ultraman [“Ultra Q,” The Rise of Ultraman #1, Nov. 2020], then I did a tenpage story that I co-wrote with a friend of mine for Captain America [“The Promise,” Captain America #25, Jan. 2021], then there was an eight-page Spider-Man [“Just Some Guy,” Amazing Fantasy #1000, Sept. 2022], and I started pitching larger projects. So, this story in Batman: Urban Legends is one of them [“The Wheelman of Gotham,” #21, Jan. 2023], but there are also others that are in the works. CBC: Great! Is there a big project in the works? Michael: There’s a couple, but I don’t know how much I can actually say about it. They’re all projects that are co-written by me. I have a

The Terrifics TM & © DC Comics. "Fight Evil" emblem © Michael Cho.

thing conceptual to work on or about the industry. Tim used to be art director of Owl magazine, a children’s magazine here in town, and he called me in to show my portfolio — this is back in the ’90s — to see if I could do children’s illustration. At that point, I had not done any editorial illustration… well, maybe one or two small gigs. But I knew very little about editorial illustration, because I wasn’t trained at that, in any way. But he called to say he saw some work I had done, signs and a book that I had illustrated with a friend. And he said, “Come in and show us your portfolio.” Owl was a magazine in Canada that everyone knew about because, as kids, we all read it in the school library. So I went to the newsstand and bought the latest copy and looked over this issue of Owl magazine while riding the bus to the appointment. At first, I was thinking, “Oh, yeah, well, my stuff’s hot shit and they must be an old fuddy-duddy kids magazine.” So I’m thinking beforehand that my portfolio should be fine — the arrogance of a 20-something-year-old, right? — and then I open up the magazine and realize, “Oh, Dave Cooper’s in this… Seth is in here… Craig Thompson’s got an illustration in here… here’s Jay Stephens… and in the back is a Mitch O’Connell illustration…!” CBC: Really? Holy smokes! This is all in a single issue you’re looking at? Michael: Yeah. Tim is that good as an art director. The great thing about Tim is, like any really good art director, constantly hungry visually, constantly checking out new artists in other magazines. He still goes to TCAF [Toronto Comic Arts Festival] here in town, a local indie comic arts festival, and is excited to see new talents and new approaches, you know, and he doesn’t like some art directors where they go, “Here’s my little stable of artists and I’ll just use them.” Tim is going, “What if I get this guy who draws this crazy, weird horror indie comic, but his style could lean toward doing kid books. Why don’t we get him a shot?” So I went to the meeting, brought my portfolio, and I was already crestfallen after looking through Owl. I literally said, “Why would you even want me? You’ve got like Dave Cooper, Craig Thompson, Jay Stephens…” Then he saw my portfolio, took pity on me, and said, “No, you could do something for us. I think it’d be good. I’m going to assign you this little two-page spread and maybe you can hand it in at the end of the month.” And that was my introduction to Tim and was my mentor for years as he moved on to other magazines. Before I joined up with illustration reps Gerald & Cullin Rapp, who handle my editorial and corporate illustration work, Tim was the first guy I contacted, and I asked, “Hey, what do you think of them?” He said, “You’d be a fool not to sign with them.” But the best piece of advice he gave me, along with a million others, was: “As an art director, I don’t want you to give me what you think I’m looking for. Just wow me.” And I’ve had that same, almost word-for-word direction from another art director who I really respect and that’s a sign of a really great art director. They’re not looking for what they’ve already pictured in their head. If you’re just functioning as a set of hands for the art director, it’s less of an art. So I’ve always appreciated an art director who will sit there, give me the article, and not micro-manage on the concept, but will give me COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

a chance to go at it, where I say, “I hope you’ll trust that I’m professional enough to deliver something that’s appropriate for this article, while at the same time stretching and giving you something unexpected.” And the best art directors do that. So I always love Tim for setting me free by telling me something like that and giving me the opportunity not to be just a supplier or a set of hands, but rather to be an artist. CBC: I’ve been a creative director and art director, and I’ve hired any number of freelancers. And the bottom line is they are hired not just for their talent, but for their intelligence and creativity. “What can you come up with conceptually?” Michael: Yes and when I talk to students, I always tell them concept trumps technique seven days a week. A great concept can be executed in a lot of different ways that doesn’t involve technique, but technique without concept is just rendering. I see guys coming out of school and they’ve learned how to use

Above: Cho shared about this variant cover for The Terrifics #25 [Apr. 2020], "Another nice change of pace, I tried to draw this one in a different style as I had been playing around more and experimenting with digital tools." Inset left: Cho's design was on T-shirts debuting at the San Diego Comic Con in 2017. A second version features a woman of color in the same pose. Next page: Cho's wife, designer/illustrator Claudia Dávila, provided the typographical treatment on these Marvel covers from 2016 (at top). The Marvel Comics Presents #2 [Apr. 2019] cover was meant to invoke 1950s' double-feature movie posters. 63

called experimental arts. A lot of people did installation work and some people painted — I painted — some people did sculpture, and some did sound poetry… whatever. But the main thing I learned during my art school years was to rethink what art is. To ask the essential questions, strip away preconceptions, make connections between disparate ideas and try to push boundaries. Essentially, tap into the roots of creativity. And that thinking still informed me when I got into illustration and became an editorial illustrator. I had no formal training in illustration, but I had a method of thinking that I learned in art college, so that’s what I tried to apply. And it’s the same thing I apply to comics: back then, there wasn’t a formal school you could go to learn comic storytelling or whatnot, but I bring my background in all these different disciplines and apply it. At the heart of it is questioning, “What am I doing? What’s important?” You know, it’s not rendering that’s important; it’s the thinking that informs my work in comics and still helps me to this day. CBC: So, with the storytelling, obviously you had the illustration down. You’re telling a story with a single illustration or, let’s say, you know, a triptych or however it’s set up. With comics itself, you obviously had an experience from childhood of doing your own homemade comics. When you broke into the professional realm of comics…? Talk about that, please. Michael: I come into comics in a really round#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. • All photos courtesy of Don McGregor.

Photoshop (or, back in the day, learned how to airbrush) and, because they know how to do these certain techniques, the work always employs these techniques, because that’s the motif of their work, you know? And I’ve always viewed it, even with myself, that I’m not beholden to technique. It’s the concept that matters. An example of a really great illustrator is Christoph Niemann, a man who has a million different ways to tell an idea, but the idea is what works. So, when I describe an illustration that he does, the person hearing that description can picture that idea, and it makes perfect sense and can be rendered in a million different ways if you ask. If I told a roomful of students, here’s an article, and I’m going to verbally describe Niemann’s illustration for it. They would go, “Oh, that’s a great illustration idea.” The concept translates across form and media. And then, if you ask them to set it down on paper, they’ll all draw it a different way, and it’s all great. CBC: You’ve spent so much time doing editorial illustration, does that give you a special something that you can add to the to your comic book storytelling? Michael: No, I think you have to go a little further back than that. For me, it was about my art school training and that’s the way I try to explain it. I know other artists who studied illustration or even comics at art college, but I didn’t. I studied contemporary art and, at the time, the course was

All TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. • All photos courtesy of Don McGregor.

about way. Like I said, I was an editorial illustrator, and then I was doing work for Owl magazine, doing a lot of children’s book and magazine illustration in Canada, as well as the occasional adult publication, like a business magazine or something. So one day, Owl magazine told me, “Hey, we have a comic feature that we have here and the illustrator of the comic feature doesn’t really get how to draw comics. And they said, “Would you take a stab at it and break down this for page story for them? You work in a comic style, we figure you’d know how to draw comics.” And I said, “Yeah, okay, I’ll do it.” So I broke down the story and they said, “Actually, this other Illustrator doesn’t want to do this project anymore. Would you take it on?” And I said okay, as long as he genuinely left and I didn’t cause him to lose his job or something. So I did this four-page comic feature in Owl magazine for a few years, and that was my first professionally published comic book work. And, at the time, I was terrible! [laughter] I couldn’t even draw in perspective, and I had a friend explain to me how perspective works, because, as an illustrator, you can cheat a lot of that; you can fake perspective and draw the angle that you feel like that that you’re strongest on. But, with comics, you can’t. We talked about this with Frank Miller. So I drew this four-page comic feature about a detective, a kid’s mystery thing, for a few years. And every month I would take it as a challenge to improve something in it. So, I would say, “This is the month when I focus on expressions,” or, “This is the month when I’m going to try to focus on compositions and panels to lead the eye around,” “This will be a month where I try to focus on defining the backgrounds better and get a clearer sense of space,” and things like that. That was my little training ground. And then, having done that, and then drawing a few little indie comics on my own, I felt more and more confident about drawing comics. Around that time, a bunch of us Toronto cartoonists were starting up a web comic portal, which doesn’t exist anymore. They asked me, “Do you want to do a daily or weekly webcomic?” And I was like, “Hell no. I’m way too slow and way too busy for that. I could never hit that deadline. I’d fail that in a week.” But then we talked and I said, “Hey, what if I did like a short story every month?” So I drew these short little web comics every month, but they started getting longer. The first was four pages, the next was eight, and then the next one was like 16 or 24 pages, or something like that. And it was around that time I was like, okay, you know, I’m starting to better figure out the storytelling. I’m feeling more confident about storytelling and it’d be nice to try and maybe try and pitch some graphic novel projects. And so it went from there. CBC: That was “Transmission X”? Michael: Yes. CBC: And are they any good? Michael: Well, at the time, I thought they were good. CBC: I mean, are they do you think they should be collected? Michael: There are a couple of stories that are good. I think I did a sum total of maybe eight different stories, and the first one’s pretty good, the second one is okay… There’s one that’s really long that I thought was good… because they were genre-less stories, just fiction. There’s one story about a woman who quit smoking, and another about a kid who remembers a childhood friend who passed away. And then there’s one about a kid growing up in the suburbs and how sh*tty that is as a teenager (which is literally just me and my memories of growing up in a suburb) and that one I thought was really good when I was writing it… And when I read it now, I go, “Oh, this is so emo.” It is just dripping with teenage angst! Dar used to COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

mock me for that, like “Whatever you write, I know it’s going to have ennui….” CBC: Hey, but c’mon, those are valid feelings, right? Michael: I can look at it now, like it was a learning exercise… It was a way for me to learn. I still think a couple of the stories hold up, the ones that are less pretentious. CBC: But you can do “quiet.” And that’s not often done enough within the milieu of comics. There’s a real sense that I get from Shoplifter where there’s this… this hesitancy... When she’s with the shopkeeper and they exchange looks. You know, it’s a very pregnant moment filled with import. You have a natural, dramatic flair for nuance… Michael: Thank you, I appreciate that. My focus, when I was writing those types of stories is, I’m really interested in trying to create characters that are alive and then trying to put an honest, internal emotion on the page. I would fiddle, for instance, so many times with an eyebrow placement and things like that. Just so that I didn’t have like a stock set of, say, five expressions. Let’s say two people are in bed, right? Two people have 65

All TM & Marvel Characters, Inc.

Batman, Robin TM & © DC Comics.

been talking about what the rest of their lives will be. If I cartoon that and use dots for eyes, it’s going to be extra hard for me to convey subtler emotions. And, if I if I try to do that while trying to stick to, let’s say, a sort of retro style or something, I’m going to have a lot of problems, because I’m already adding a layer of drawing motifs and mannerisms on top of naked emotion. So I was trying to “strip-down” in those stories a lot — leave a lot of stuff out, and try to tap into something that is literally under the skin… And I try to put that on paper. And at the time, I might think, “Oh, this should be doable.” But, in the process of doing that, I can come to the realization, “Oh my god, this is really hard!” I have to use every trick in the book — cropping; lighting; trying to figure out expressions; take into account the sequence that led up to this scene; try to convey the interior monologue that’s going on inside this person’s head or what their decision-making process is like… All this kind of stuff that, at the beginning, I thought, “Well, this shouldn’t be that hard. This is a decent challenge.” And then, later, in the course of doing Shoplifter, I was just like, “Oh my god, I’m going to have to use every trick I know! There’s a lot of quiet stuff in there.” I particularly enjoy drawing nighttime scenes; I particularly like drawing evocative, urban nighttime scenes, like the shop window that’s lit up, with a Coke machine beside it, and there’s nothing else on that block… those types of things. I like those kinds of nighttime scenes, because I used to go on lots of nighttime walks and I’ve always gravitated toward the loneliness of the city. And I wanted to convey that in the in the book — this sounds SO pretentious! — to bring out the beautiful melancholy, a loneliness, that is beautiful. I try to convey some of that and, if I succeeded at getting one percent of that, I was happy. CBC: Right: that feeling of 4:00 in the morning… Would you agree that that there’s something really Canadian about that? A lack of bombast, maybe, in your dramatic material? I don’t know what the word is… it’s not really so self-important, maybe? I wouldn’t call it “quiet” so much, because I get a sense of sound emanating from it, too. I visit Canada, not infrequently, and I love it for this… I don’t know what it is… serenity? Serenity is not the right word either. But, anyway, it’s evocative of something distinctly Canadian in your work, a calmness, especially in what I’ve seen with Back Alleys and Urban Landscapes… Michael: Well, I don’t know if it’s particularly Canadian, but I know that my book, Shoplifter, comes out of a tradition of indie comics by people who influenced me, people like someone moping.” And I think, “Well, I thought it was a little Dan Clowes, Seth, and the Hernandez brothers. Particularly in more interesting than that, but maybe, yeah, there’s Dan Clowes, there’s absolute beauty, you know, a lot of moping.” But I don’t know if that’s a in these images of cities and of people in the uniquely Canadian thing. That’d be like city that he draws. And I come from that saying Canadians are, by nature, less kind of school with that book… But I bombastic than Americans…? Yeah, don’t know if it’s something uniquely I guess so. You know, we’re a little Canadian other than to say that more reserved, a little more polite, Canada has a lot of those types sure. But I don’t know if that was of cartoonists, whether it’s like on my mind or influences the way Seth or Chester Brown or Kate I draw. Beaton… There’s a lot of people CBC: Is Shoplifter a direct telling uniquely personal and descendant of your Transmission interior monologue-type stories. X comics? CBC: Yeah, but your stuff is Michael: Yes, I think so. When also… it’s observational, you know? we’re talking about this now, I realized It’s not necessarily navel gazing, comthat the last story for Transmission X and parative to some of those guys… Shoplifter have a lot in common. Shoplifter Michael: Are you sure? Because is just a more sophisticated version of that, a sometimes, when I write the stuff, some of my more complete version of that, because it has a lot of friends are like, “Oh my God, it’s just another story about COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

Above: Page from Cho's collaboration with Chip Kidd, Batman Back and White #1 [Nov. 2013]. Page 65: At top is Cho's Shang-Chi #2 [July 2021] variant cover; below is one of 10 illos Cho did for Marvel licensing. Previous page: Cho was the assigned artist for the first batch Mighty Marvel Masterworks trade paperback reprint volumes. Here are four of them (clockwise from top left) Doctor Strange Vol. 1—The World Beyond [’22], Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 2—The Sinister Six [’21], Fantastic Four Vol. 2—The Micro-World of Doctor Doom [’22], and The Avengers Vol. 1—The Coming of the Avengers [’21]. Inset left: Cho draws a distinctly angular Caped Crusader. 67

Chip Kidd?” And I said, “Yeah, totally! I love his work, but I don’t know why he’d want me…” Mark said, “Well, he asked for you.” And then Chip and I became friends in the course of that. And then, because he’s the editor of Pantheon, he said, “You know, if you have a book project and want to do it at Pantheon, I’d be happy to look at it,” so then I called my literary agent. And they went from there. CBC: Were your expectations with the book’s reception met? Michael: In what way? Like financial? CBC: Was it was as successful as you had hoped it would be? Michael: I don’t know. I don’t have expectations like that. I don’t honestly think much in terms of critical reception. I tend to think, “Did I tell the story I wanted to tell? Did I achieve my artistic goals for it?” And then was I able to support myself by doing it? So, I don’t know what the critical reception was, if that’s what you’re asking. I know that some people liked it… I liked it, but I thought that there was a lot to be improved upon. CBC: Well, to be blunt: where’s the follow-up? Michael: The follow-up to that was I had another child, and doing an indie graphic novel for a tiny advance was never going to be able to support two kids, and a mortgage, and a wife. So that’s the equally blunt answer to that. I realize that I could probably spend my days writing applications for government grants, then toiling away, incredibly absorbed in a graphic novel that was emotionally draining to me… because, even a book like a Shoplifter, when I’m writing and drawing — especially when I’m drawing it — it’s really draining, as I’m constantly trying to put myself in the headspace of these characters. I was just like, “Oh God, I’m so tired of trying to be in this headspace as I draw every line,” just so that I capture the nuances of what I’m trying to draw. I’ve worked in publishing long enough to know I’m probably not going to see much of a royalty, because with most books you never see anything past your advance. And that’s especially true for personal, quiet projects without some giant IP tie in.

the same kind of nighttime scenes and same kind of quiet. It’s just that one is way more angsty. Shoplifter is more refined. So, yeah, it does come out of that. What happened was, at the time, I was doing illustration work, and I also wanted to write and draw comics. I pitched to a literary agent here in town the idea of doing five short stories in one big book. And Shoplifter was initially one of them. Then I realized I’d bitten off way too much, because it was going to be a ridiculous amount of work to do all five stories. So I said, let’s do them separately and I’ll do Shoplifter first, because that was the one story that very self-contained and, “I can do this and it’s the shortest, simplest one, and let’s see how that goes.” And then, in the course of doing that, I realized, “Oh my god, this is a huge endeavor.” CBC: Did your agent first pitch it to Pantheon? Michael: No, she pitched it to a couple of different places, and then what happened was that Pantheon’s editor, Chip Kidd, had worked with me on a Batman story right around the same time. [Then-DC art director] Mark Chiarello had contacted me and asked, “Would you do a Batman Black and White story with

Action Comics, Superman, Wonder Woman TM & © DC Comics.

Above: Cho called it, "easy money, really," when he drew the 1940s' variant cover for Action Comics #1000 [June 2018], adding, "as it was an opportunity to draw Superman vs. the Nazis in WWII." Inset right: In Sept. 2021, Cho tweeted, "DC released my cover for the Wonder Woman 80th Anniversary special [Dec. 2021]. I got to do the '1960s themed' cover and it was a treat for me to draw. Did some hand-lettering for it, too!" Next page: Cho's piece for Shazam!: The World's Mightiest Mortal Vol. 2 [2020]. The artist also provided a nifty Marvel Family piece for the first volume of this trade paperback series reprinting the charming 1970s' Shazam! run.

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COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

CBC: So do you think you will eventually flesh out the other four stories? Michael: Yes, I would like to. I don’t know if I would do all four. Of the four, there’s three that are really still worth doing, and I have notes for those. But, along the way, I come up with other projects that are also in a similar vein, that are not like Batman stories. And I’d like to go do those, and I often find that, when I’m writing a story like Shoplifter, as an escape in the back of my mind, I’m figuring out a super-hero story, writing a Batman story, or something like that, as an escape in the back of the mind. And there’s the reverse, where I’m thinking of another little small drama piece, while doing a super-hero story. So I still have ideas for all these things. It’s just that I have to come back around to them and I have to be realistic about expectations. So, I have to be financially solvent enough to be able to and have built a large enough fan base. Then, when I do an indie project, the numbers will work out. CBC: What’s the most off-the-wall art project that you worked on professionally that would perhaps surprise somebody who is familiar with your work? I know you were you did some theater scenes, you know, at one time, but anyway, what comes to mind? Michael: Oh god, where do I begin? There’s too many! When I was in my 20s, when I got out of art college, I was painting giant canvases in my apartment, and catching any job I could that was arts related. My goal then was, “Try everything. If you don’t know how to do it, you can probably fake your way until you figure out how you do it, and then you can figure out what you like doing.” Then, somewhere in my mid-30s, it was, “Okay, it’s now time to zero into what I really want to do.” In the beginning of my career, I did theater illustration, making the designs that someone would then paint on a backdrop. I also painted the backdrops and murals, climbing scaffolding, running a paint gun, and doing these giant murals. I also did storyboarding for film, where I did action sequences for cheap, straight-to-video movies — car chase

This page: Canadian artist Cho counts Cap as a fave super-hero. Above, page from Captain America #25 [Jan. 2021]; inset left, print by Cho; below ,Cho's Captain America #28 [May 2021] variant cover.

Maybe if I’m lucky a film company will option this for a film that will never get made, and I’ll get a few more grand, or sell some foreign rights and make a little more money. And there’s no way in Toronto I could support a family that way, even with my wife working. I’d have to come back to this later on rather than use it as my day job. When I do editorial Illustration or whatnot, I could support my family and pay the mortgage, but I could not do editorial illustration — or even advertising — at the same time as drawing a graphic novel. The work is just too intensive for my kind of personality. I’m not the kind of person that can plug away for a few hours on weekends on a personal project and then put it back in the drawer. But I couldn’t do that. I couldn’t sit there and do five years of building a career on small works, hoping that eventually they can make me a living… I know other guys who can, because they they’re faster than I am, or they teach and then work on the graphic novel on the side. And they build a nice body of work that eventually will sustain them. But I’m just too slow, and I’m way too intense about this stuff, and I can’t do other stuff while I do this thing. #30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

sequence, and things like that. I did some porn… well, it’s softcore porn: somebody asked me to illustrate a book that was “literary erotica.” But it wasn’t boudoir, 17th century stuff; it was more like hardcore, modern erotica. Some of those I’ll find occasionally and realize, “Oh yeah, I drew that. That is a woman with a strap-on penis that I drew…” I did a deck of playing cards of 50 nude illustrations that never got printed. It was like a retro nudie playing card deck from the ’40s or something. I hand-painted all the signs at a popular local bookstore, illustrating all the categories. I did gig posters and CD packaging for local bands. So, I did stuff like that. But that’s all early stuff. Nowadays, I still catch weird illustration assignments, where they ask me to draw things like a team mascot for a school that’s half-fish/ half-cougar. I did illustrations for the Biden campaign in 2020. I drew an info-comic about teens and STDS for an agency to be distributed in U.S. high schools. I did another info comic for the Dairy Farmers of Canada. There’s so many of these things in the wild. Toy packaging, T-shirt designs, pharmaceutical billboards, and on and on. So, every once in a while, like six months after I finish something, I’ll be surprised when I open my front door and there’ll be a FedEx box with some final product of something I did. “Oh yeah, right! I designed these hoodies. Oh right!” “These are the trading cards I did.” CBC: When I mentioned Hamlet to you, you replied COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

as if you still might still be thinking about it. Is adapting Shakespeare still on your mind? Michael: Yeah. Hamlet’s my favorite story of all time. I never read it in school. I read Hamlet years later and I was like, “Oh, this is such a great story! This is the ultimate petulant teen.” And he’s so modern. So, for years afterwards, every time there was a film production of Hamlet, I would always seek it out. And I’d go, “Oh, they got it wrong. Oh, it’s close, but it’s not there. They got this little bit wrong.” Because, in my mind, I would picture what I see the play as being about. I mean, obviously, I’m not an expert and don’t have the authority to say they got it wrong. But, for me, there’s just my personal version I see in my head. So I have always carried around the idea of drawing it sometime. Every once in a while, somebody will ask me to do a commission: “Can you draw something for me? And you can pick the character,” and I’ll draw Hamlet. So, over the years, there are a few drawings of Hamlet that I’ve done for people — from 20 years ago, 10 years ago, and so forth. As I get older, every few years, I reread the play and think, “Oh, this would be a really good staging for this sequence.” And then, in my head, I break it down to the panels. So, a few years ago, Chip and I were on stage in San Francisco, and he asked, “Is there a project that you want to do at some point that’s like a dream or vanity project?” And I said, “Yeah, I’d 71

chodrawings. blogspot.com

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

like to do a comic book version of Hamlet.” But I know that I’d have to wait because the market is saturated with these sort of manga versions of Hamlet created to get a school audience, so instead of buying Cliff Notes, they buy the manga version and read that. And I can tell that some of these have not been created out of love, but out of a desire to hit a market. And they get it all wrong. You know, the artist has been hired to draw it and they’ve got been given a piddly amount of money, and they have no real love for the source material, so they just draw expressionless faces with 30 word balloons in iambic pentameter. And so, I’d like to take a crack at an adaptation, at some point. It probably will have to be when I’m older because I’d have to do it economically in terms of style, because there’s a lot of pages, and you’d have to cut, with a machete, huge Visit Michael Cho on the web at his blogsite chunks of the play and just get to the meat of it. To cut it down to something that would work in comics form, you’d have to be ruthless in the editing. I still have, in my files, sequences I broke down into panels

Above: One of the artist's favorite pieces, the variant cover for Batgirls #4 [May 2022]. Previous page: At top is black-&-white line art for a very recent story by Cho and writing partner Anthony Falcone, "The Wheelman of Gotham," in Batman: Urban Legends #21 [Jan. 2023]. At bottom is yet another sweet Batman illustration by Cho., this beauty from 2016

— the last speech before the duel, then the sequence on the parapet with the ghost, and when he’s being when he’s being told by school friends that the ghost is going to arrive tonight, and then the ghost arrives, and then he’s telling his friends, “Unhand me, gentlemen. By heaven, I’ll make a ghost of him that lets me!” And I thought, “This actually works. This would be great if I could just print this from the pencils.” I’ll have to take a crack at actually trying to figure out how many pages it would be. I don’t think it would be 500 pages like I initially thought. I think I’d probably do something like 250 and really cut it down. And, if I could do it in a lean, economical way that still has what I wanted, I would love to do it. CBC: So Hamlet is “haunting” you. [chuckles] Michael: Weirdly, every few years, I look at old notes and recognize it still works. A few years ago, I bought an iPad and one of the first things I did was try to work out a cover for Hamlet. What would that design look like? What would appeal to like? Seamus Heaney did a modern version of Beowulf and it’s dynamite. Not to compare myself in any way to a Nobel Prize-winning poet in any way, shape or form! But I really loved that version of Beowulf and that’s what I’m picturing in my head for Hamlet: something that takes the text and cuts it to the bone for a modern audience. CBC: Hey, you’re allowed to be inspired by a Nobel laureate, Mike. Michael: I just don’t want anyone to think that I’m comparing myself to Heaney. When I saw that, I realized that’s what I’m after and it’s something always missing from every film version of Hamlet I ever saw. CBC: You know, I wonder if it’s a young thing to be into Hamlet and, with middle age, comes Macbeth and with old age, Lear... Michael: I think with old age comes The Tempest. CBC: Well, there’s that. Yeah, but Lear… if you got kids…. Oh, boy! Michael: I thought of that. Lear doesn’t resonate with me as much as Hamlet. Hamlet is just a modern character, you know? And, for some reason, I gravitate to that because it’s like the petulant teen who thinks he’s too smart for everybody else. But, at the same time, he’s not, and he’s moody, and he’s a sh*t disturber, and he’s a little sh*t, and he’s cruel to people… But it’s so modern, you know, that kind of a character written… what?… 500 years ago…? A guy who’s horrible to his girlfriend, but at the same time, you know, he does have a noble heart and every sh*tty thing he says, like the first line out of his mouth when his mom was going, “Everybody’s father died, why it seems it’s so particular with thee,” and he’s like. “Seems madam? Seems? Nay, tis. I know not ‘seems.’” It’s such a teenage little sh*t thing to say. CBC: You’ve had a truly eclectic career, Michael… Michael: That’s a fun way to put it. People told me, “You have to pick a path. You have to pick a track or else you’re going to be ten years behind everybody all the time. You know, you’re only running at half-speed.” And that is true; the older I get, I see that. But, at the same time, I have a hard time picking paths. You know, there’s that little petulant kid in me who wants to show everybody up and go, “If you expect this of me, I want to do the opposite!” And I don’t want to give up one path for another. I’ve always artistically… I guess, I’m a journeyman, you know, I want to try it all. I don’t have to master everything, but I do want to try my hand at everything. One of my favorite things I used to tell people was, “I reserve the right to disappoint any expectations of style.” I approach all the projects like that. I don’t want to just be doing,

artist friends who have wives or significant others who work in completely different industries, and they say, “My husband or my wife can’t understand that, when I’m actually working at home, I’m actually working.” [Jon chuckles] “I can’t go run an errand…” Sometimes if I’m stuck searching for an idea for an illustration, my wife and I will sit there together. I’ve got nothing, no eureka moment, I’ve exhausted every trick I know to come up with an idea and am still drawing a blank. Then, my wife and I will sit with each other at a table with a sheet of paper, and we just brainstorm and be completely unfiltered with each other, throwing ideas back and forth with no ego attached. It’s just pure idea generation at high speed - we’ll ruthlessly dismiss each other’s ideas while searching for a better one with no personal feelings hurt. And, by the end of that, we always come up with an idea and, you know, it never fails. If I talk to my wife Claudia at some point, it always works out.

Above: Ken Meyer, Jr.'s color portrait of artist Michael Cho. Below: Claudia and Mike.. Next spread: Two illustrations from Cho’s Back Alleys and Urban Landscapes book, as well as his Adam Strange painting, which started out as a doodle he sketched one sleepless night. Plus the artist’s rendition of your friendly neighborhood you-know-who.

you know, one genre of something. I want to work in all the different things. So, whatever moves me… CBC: And what’s amazing is that you get the opportunity. Michael: I’m really fortunate. And, in a moment of clarity, I am quite aware of that. I do get a lot of opportunities to do things that are that are new, fresh, and challenging. And these days, sometimes I get the opportunity to put it together myself. CBC: You have a certain tenacity and pragmatism. Maybe stubbornness. Do you sense that you get this strength from your father? Michael: I think so. My dad was a hardcore businessman, but he forged his own path. When I was a kid, I felt I was nothing like my father. I was completely rebelling against him and didn’t want to end up like him or anything like that. “I’m an artist, I’m going to do my own thing.” But I quickly learned from others: you can’t survive as an artist without some business skills. And so I learned that lesson very early, and I don’t like to be played for a fool, you know, so I developed a business sense and professionalism to balance the artistic side of me. I think that’s something I got from my father. I know some artists’ temperament is to be quiet and introverted. And as an artist too, I know many of us would rather just create and hope the business side takes care of itself. But without some understanding of business, that can lead to exploitation and frustration. And a lot of artists that bottle up that frustration, letting it simmer until it explodes. And I just think there’s a smoother way of handling things. Years ago, I remember Darwyn told me this story about how Joe Kubert hung an editor out of a window for altering his art or something. Who knows if it’s true but Dar just loved that story. He loved that tough guy stance. And I admire Joe Kubert, too, and it’s a great story but you can’t do that. There are easier ways to deal with these kinds of problems without burning bridges, without letting it get that far. And that doesn’t involve you being a milquetoast. I want to control my own destiny, you know, and that means learning how to be a professional and handle my business in a professional manner so that it’s self-evident to any client that they shouldn’t try to play you. CBC: I need to ask: you said that Tim Davin introduced you to your wife. How did that that happen? Michael: So, when I walked into the Owl magazine office, with my portfolio, my jean jacket, and Doc Marten boots, Tim Davin was the art director and his assistant art director was Claudia Davila, who became my wife. CBC: How nice. Michael: My wife is fantastic, by the way. I love having an award-winning art director and illustrator as my wife. I talk to

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COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

TwoMorrows 2023 www.twomorrows.com • store@twomorrows.com

THE BEST OF SIMON & KIRBY’S

MAINLINE COMICS

by JOE SIMON & JACK KIRBY Introduction by JOHN MORROW

In 1954, industry legends JOE SIMON and JACK KIRBY founded MAINLINE PUBLICATIONS to publish their own comics during that turbulent era in comics history. The four titles—BULLSEYE, FOXHOLE, POLICE TRAP, and IN LOVE—looked to build off their reputation as hit makers in the Western, War, Crime, and Romance genres, but the 1950s backlash against comics killed any chance at success, and Mainline closed its doors just two years later. For the first time, TwoMorrows Publishing is compiling the best of Simon & Kirby’s Mainline comics work, including all of the stories with S&K art, as well as key tales with contributions by MORT MESKIN and others. After the company’s dissolution, their partnership ended with Simon leaving comics for advertising, and Kirby taking unused Mainline concepts to both DC and Marvel. This collection bridges the gap between Simon & Kirby’s peak with their 1950s romance comics, and the lows that led to Kirby’s resurgence with CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN and the early MARVEL UNIVERSE. With loving art restoration by CHRIS FAMA, and an historical overview by JOHN MORROW to put it all into perspective, the BEST OF SIMON & KIRBY’S MAINLINE COMICS presents some of the final, and finest, work Joe and Jack ever produced. SHIPS SUMMER 2023! (256-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $49.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-118-9

DESTROYER DUCK GRAPHITE EDITION

by JACK KIRBY & STEVE GERBER Introduction by MARK EVANIER

In the 1980s, writer STEVE GERBER was embroiled in a lawsuit against MARVEL COMICS over ownership of his creation HOWARD THE DUCK. To raise funds for legal fees, Gerber asked JACK KIRBY to contribute to a benefit comic titled DESTROYER DUCK. Without hesitation, Kirby (who was in his own dispute with Marvel at the time) donated his services for the first issue, and the duo took aim at their former employer in an outrageous five-issue run. With biting satire and guns blazing, Duke “Destroyer” Duck battled the thinly veiled Godcorp (whose infamous credo was “Grab it all! Own it all! Drain it all!”), its evil leader Ned Packer and the (literally) spineless Booster Cogburn, Medea (a parody of Daredevil’s Elektra), and more! Now, all five Gerber/Kirby issues are collected—but relettered and reproduced from JACK’S UNBRIDLED, UNINKED PENCIL ART! Also included are select examples of ALFREDO ALCALA’s unique inking style over Kirby on the original issues, Gerber’s script pages, an historical Introduction by MARK EVANIER (co-editor of the original 1980s issues), and an Afterword by BUZZ DIXON (who continued the series after Gerber)! Discover all the hidden jabs you missed when DESTROYER DUCK was first published, and experience page after page of Kirby’s raw pencil art! SHIPS SPRING 2023! (128-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $31.95 • (Digital Edition) $13.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-117-2

ALTER EGO COLLECTORS’ ITEM CLASSICS

By overwhelming demand, editor ROY THOMAS has compiled all the material on the founders of the Marvel Bullpen from three SOLD-OUT ALTER EGO ISSUES—plus OVER 30 NEW PAGES OF CONTENT! There’s the STEVE DITKO ISSUE (#160 with a rare ’60s Ditko interview by RICHARD HOWELL, biographical notes by NICK CAPUTO, and Ditko tributes)! The STAN LEE ISSUE (#161 with ROY THOMAS on his 50+ year relationship with Stan, art by KIRBY, DITKO, MANEELY, EVERETT, SEVERIN, ROMITA, plus tributes from pros and fans)! And the JACK KIRBY ISSUE (#170 with WILL MURRAY on Kirby’s contributions to Iron Man’s creation, Jack’s Captain Marvel/Mr. Scarlet Fawcett work, Kirby in 1960s fanzines, plus STAN LEE and ROY THOMAS on Jack)! Whether you missed these issues, or can’t live without the extensive NEW MATERIAL on DITKO, LEE, and KIRBY, it’s sure to be an AMAZING, ASTONISHING, FANTASTIC tribute to the main men who made Marvel! NOW SHIPPING! (256-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $35.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-116-5

CLIFFHANGER!

CINEMATIC SUPERHEROES OF THE SERIALS: 1941–1952 by CHRISTOPHER IRVING

Hold on tight as historian CHRISTOPHER IRVING explores the origins of the first on-screen superheroes and the comic creators and film-makers who brought them to life. CLIFFHANGER! touches on the early days of the film serial, to its explosion as a juvenile medium of the 1930s and ‘40s. See how the creation of characters like SUPERMAN, CAPTAIN AMERICA, SPY SMASHER, and CAPTAIN MARVEL dovetailed with the early film adaptations. Along the way, you’ll meet the stuntmen, directors (SPENCER BENNETT, WILLIAM WITNEY, producer SAM KATZMAN), comic book creators (SIEGEL & SHUSTER, SIMON & KIRBY, BOB KANE, C.C. BECK, FRANK FRAZETTA, WILL EISNER), and actors (BUSTER CRABBE, GEORGE REEVES, LORNA GRAY, KANE RICHMOND, KIRK ALYN, DAVE O’BRIEN) who brought them to the silver screen—and how that resonates with today’s cinematic superhero universe. SHIPS SUMMER 2023! (160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-119-6

THE CHILLINGLY WEIRD ART OF

MATT FOX

by ROGER HILL

MATT FOX (1906–1988) first gained notoriety for his jarring cover paintings on the pulp magazine WEIRD TALES from 1943 to 1951. His almost primitive artistry encompassed ghouls, demons, and grotesqueries of all types, evoking a disquieting horror vibe that no one since has ever matched. Fox suffered with chronic pain throughout his life, and that anguish permeated his classic 1950s cover illustrations and his lone story for CHILLING TALES, putting them at the top of all pre-code horror comic enthusiasts’ want lists. He brought his evocative storytelling skills (and an almost BASIL WOLVERTON-esque ink line over other artists) to ATLAS/MARVEL horror comics of the 1950s and ’60s, but since Fox never gave an interview, this unique creator remained largely unheralded—until now! Comic art historian ROGER HILL finally tells Fox’s life story, through an informative biographical essay, augmented with an insightful introduction by FROM THE TOMB editor PETER NORMANTON. This FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER also showcases all of the artist’s WEIRD TALES covers and interior illustrations, and a special Atlas Comics gallery with examples of his inking over GIL KANE, LARRY LIEBER, and others. Plus, there’s a wealth of other delightfully disturbing images by this grand master of horror—many previously unpublished and reproduced from his original paintings and art—sure to make an indelible imprint on a new legion of fans. SHIPS FALL 2023! (128-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $29.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-120-2

CHARLTON COMPANION

TEAM-UP COMPANION OUR ARTISTS AT WAR AMERICAN TV COMICS (1940s-1980s)

THE LIFE & ART OF

DAVE COCKRUM

JON B. COOKE’s all-new history of the notorious all-in-one comics company, from the 1940s to the ’70s, with GIORDANO, DITKO, STATON, BYRNE and more!

MICHAEL EURY examines team-up comic books of the Silver and Bronze Ages of Comics in a lushly illustrated selection of informative essays, special features, and trivia-loaded issue-by-issue indexes!

Examines US War comics from EC, DC COMICS, WARREN PUBLISHING, CHARLTON, and more! Featuring KURTZMAN, SEVERIN, DAVIS, WOOD, KUBERT, GLANZMAN, KIRBY, and others!

History of over 300 TV shows and 2000+ comic book adaptations, from well-known series (STAR TREK, PARTRIDGE FAMILY, THE MUNSTERS) to lesser-known shows.

GLEN CADIGAN’s bio of the artist who redesigned the Legion of Super-Heroes and introduced X-Men characters Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Logan!

(272-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $43.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-111-0

(256-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-112-7

(160-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $27.95 (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-108-0

(192-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $29.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-107-3

(160-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $27.95 HC: $36.95 • (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-113-4

REED CRANDALL

Illustrator of the Comics

MIKE GRELL

LIFE IS DRAWING WITHOUT AN ERASER

JOHN SEVERIN

HERO-A-GO-GO!

Documents the life and career of the master Golden Age artist of Captain Marvel Jr. and other classic characters! (160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-090-8

History of Crandall’s life and career, from Golden Age Quality Comics, to Warren war and horror, Flash Gordon, and beyond!

Career-spanning tribute to the Legion of Super-Heroes & Warlord comics art legend!

Biography of the EC, MARVEL and MAD mainstay, co-creator of American Eagle, and 40+ year CRACKED magazine contributor.

Looks at comics' 1960s CAMP AGE, when spies liked their wars cold and their women warm, and TV's Batman shook a mean cape!

(256-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $13.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-102-8

(160-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $27.95 (Digital Edition) $12.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-088-5

(160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-106-6

(272-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $36.95 (Digital Edition) $13.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-073-1

AMERICAN COMIC BOOK CHRONICLES

FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER SERIES

documents each decade of comics history!

8 Volumes covering the 1940s-1990s

MAC RABOY

Master of the Comics

TWO-FISTED COMIC ARTIST

TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History. Phone: 919-449-0344 E-mail: store@twomorrows.com Web: www.twomorrows.com

TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA

creators at the con Asbury Park Rises!

Photography by Kendall Whitehouse A few months after Hurricane Sandy devastated the mid-Atlantic coast in late October 2012, Asbury Park Comicon made a defiant return to the Jersey shore. After events in previous years in a local bowling alley with a maximum capacity of 300, in March 2013 the comics-focused fest moved to the larger Asbury Park Convention Hall with panel sessions held across the street at the historic rock venue, the Wonder Bar.

Top: Greetings from the Asbury Park Convention Center! Inset above: Con organizer Cliff Galbraith. This row: From left, Golden Ager Allen Bellman strikes a pose; illustrator/ painter Stephanie Buscema; cartoonist/writer John Holmstrom; and Michael Uslan talking about Batman. Below: From left, artist Steve Mannion and family; comics writer Rafer Roberts; cartoonist Al Jaffee and panel moderator Danny Fingeroth.

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

$1,000,000 PAID FOR ORIGINAL COMIC ART! COLLECTOR PAYING TOP DOLLAR FOR “ANY AND ALL” ORIGINAL COMIC BOOK AND COMIC STRIP ARTWORK FROM THE 1930S TO PRESENT! COVERS, PINUPS, PAGES, IT DOESN’T MATTER! 1 PAGE OR ENTIRE COLLECTIONS SOUGHT! CALL OR EMAIL ME ANYTIME!

330-221-5665 mikeburkey@aol.com OR SEND YOUR LIST TO:

MIKE BURKEY

P.O. BOX 455 • RAVENNA, OH 44266 CASH IS WAITING, SO HURRY!!!!!

CBC for me, see?

coming attractions: cbc #31 in the summer

The Bane of Graham Nolan’s Existence! The artistry of GRAHAM NOLAN is the main feature of CBC #31, which includes a career-spanning interview with the amazingly talented co-creator of Bane, Batman’s backbreaking nemesis, from Graham’s D&D start to recent Compass Comics titles, including The Chenoo and Alien Alamo! Also included is a beastly art gallery of his inspired Monster Island projects, The Phantom newspaper strip, array of Compass work, and, of course, his Darknight Detective collaborations with writer Chuck Dixon! The ish also spotlights our delayed in-depth article, “THE NIGHT MARVEL COMICS INVADED CARNEGIE HALL,” where Stan Lee and the whole blamed Bullpen put on a notorious and near-catastrophic stage production in 1972. There’s also part one of a look at the best cartoonist you never heard of, FRANK BORTH, from early years at Quality Comics producing Phantom Lady, close friendship with the great Reed Crandall, 30 years as the best Treasure Chest artist in, illustrator of Monster Man, and work for Cracked magazine. And Greg Biga talks with DAN DIDIO, former DC Comics co-publisher, on his fannish beginnings, decade as DC Comics executive, prolific writing, and now publisher of Frank Miller’s comics line. Batman, Robin TM & © DC Comics.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Spring 2023 • #30

Full-color, 84 pages, $10.95 79

a picture is worth a thousand words

This is a recent Kent Menace variant cover that I colored, sans logo, type and text; pencils and inks by the incomparable Bo Hampton. — TZ Kent Menace TM & © Scott Braden and Mike Malbrough.

#30 • Spring 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

BRITMANIA

by MARK VOGER

Remember when long-haired British rock ’n’ rollers made teenage girls swoon — and their parents go crazy? BRITMANIA plunges into the period when suddenly, America went wild for All Things British. This profusely illustrated full-color hardback, subtitled “The British Invasion of the Sixties in Pop Culture,” explores the movies (A HARD DAY’S NIGHT, HAVING A WILD WEEKEND), TV (THE ED SULLIVAN SHOW, MAGICAL MYSTERY TOUR), collectibles (TOYS, GAMES, TRADING CARDS, LUNCH BOXES), comics (real-life Brits in the DC and MARVEL UNIVERSES) and, of course, the music! Written and designed by MARK VOGER (MONSTER MASH, GROOVY, HOLLY JOLLY), BRITMANIA features interviews with members of THE BEATLES, THE ROLLING STONES, THE WHO, THE KINKS, HERMAN’S HERMITS, THE YARDBIRDS, THE ANIMALS, THE HOLLIES & more. It’s a gas, gas, gas! (192-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $43.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-115-8 • NOW SHIPPING!

GROOVY also by MARK VOGER

From Woodstock, “The Banana Splits,” and “Sgt. Pepper” to “H.R. Pufnstuf,” Altamont, and “The Partridge Family,” GROOVY is a far-out trip to the era of lava lamps and love beads. This profusely illustrated hardcover book, in psychedelic color, features interviews with icons of grooviness such as PETER MAX, BRIAN WILSON, PETER FONDA, MELANIE, DAVID CASSIDY, members of the JEFFERSON AIRPLANE, CREAM, THE DOORS, THE COWSILLS and VANILLA FUDGE; and cast members of groovy TV shows like “The Monkees,” “Laugh-In” and “The Brady Bunch.” Revisit the era’s rock festivals, movies, art, comics and cartoons in this color-saturated pop-culture history! (192-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 • (Digital Edition) $13.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-080-9

IT CREPT FROM THE TOMB

RETROFAN #27

Interview with Captain Kangaroo BOB KEESHAN, The ROCKFORD FILES, teen monster movies, the Kung Fu and BRUCE Digs up the best of FROM THE TOMB LEE crazes, JACK KIRBY’s comedy comics, (the UK’s preeminent horror comics history DON DRYSDALE’s TV drop-ins, outrageous magazine), with early RICHARD CORBEN toys, Challenge of the Super Friends, and art, HP LOVECRAFT, and more! more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, (192-page paperback with COLOR) $29.95 SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and (Digital Edition) $10.99 MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY. ISBN: 978-1-60549-081-6 (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships June 2023

BRICKJOURNAL #80

BRICKJOURNAL #81

RETROFAN #28

RETROFAN #29

RETROFAN #30

The BRITISH INVASION of the Sixties, interview with Bond Girl TRINA PARKS, The Mighty Hercules, Horror Hostess MOONA LISA, World’s Greatest Super Friends, TV Guide Fall Previews, the Frito Bandito, a Popeye Super Collector, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

The story behind BOB CLAMPETT’s Beany & Cecil, western queen DALE EVANS, an interview with Mr. Ed’s ALAN YOUNG, Miami Vice, The Sixties’ Wackiest Robots, Muscle-Maker CHARLES ATLAS, Super Powers Team—Galactic Guardians, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

The Brady Bunch’s FLORENCE HENDERSON, the UNKNOWN COMIC revealed, Hanna-Barbera’s Top Cat, a Barbie history, RANKIN/BASS’ Frosty the Snowman, Dell Comics’ Monster SuperHeroes, Slushy Drinks, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Aug. 2023

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Oct. 2023

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Dec. 2023

KIRBY COLLECTOR #86

KIRBY COLLECTOR #87

KIRBY COLLECTOR #88

Explore the CASTLE theme with builders GUILLAUME GRENZARD and AMENK SACHO! And building castles with some of the best castle builders in the LEGO fan community! Plus: Nerding Out with BRICKNERD, AFOLs by GREG HYLAND, step-by-step “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, and Minifigure Customization with JARED K. BURKS! Edited by JOE MENO.

Head to the city: Ellis City by GARETH and CATHY ELLIS, New Hasima by STEFAN FORMENTATO, and Fabuland City by STEVEN LAUGHLIN! Plus a wealth of other MOCs (”My Own Creations”) are showcased, along with: Nerding Out with BRICKNERD, AFOLs by GREG HYLAND, step-by-step “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, and Minifigure Customization with JARED K. BURKS!

KIRBY COMPARISONS! Analysis of unused vs. known Kirby covers and art, BARRY WINDSOR-SMITH on his stylizations in Captain America’s Bicentennial Battles, Kirby’s incorporation of real-life images in his work, WILL MURRAY’s conversations with top pros just after Jack’s passing, unused Mister Miracle cover inked by WALTER SIMONSON, and more! Edited by JOHN MORROW.

LAW & ORDER! Kirby’s lawmen from the Newsboy Legion’s Jim Harper and “Terrible” Turpin, to Western gunfighters, and even future policemen like OMAC and Captain Victory! Also: how a Marvel cop led to the creation of Funky Flashman! Justice Traps The Guilty and Headline Comics! Plus MARK EVANIER moderating 2022’s Kirby Tribute Panel (with Sin City’s FRANK MILLER). MACHLAN cover inks.

THE COLLECTORS! Fans’ quest for and purchase of Jack’s original art and comics, MARV WOLFMAN shares his (and LEN WEIN’s) interactions with Jack as fans and pros, unseen Kirby memorabilia, an extensive Kirby pencil art gallery, MARK EVANIER moderating the 2023 Kirby Tribute Panel from Comic-Con International, plus a deluxe wrap-around Kirby cover with foldout back cover flap, inked by MIKE ROYER!

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships June 2023

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships August 2023

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Summer 2023

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Fall 2023

New from TwoMorrows!

ALTER EGO #183

ALTER EGO #184

BACK ISSUE #142

Golden/Silver/Bronze Age artist IRV NOVICK (Shield, Steel Sterling, Batman, The Flash, and DC war stories) is immortalized by JOHN COATES and DEWEY CASSELL. Interviews with Irv and family members, tributes by DENNY O’NEIL, MARK EVANIER, and PAUL LEVITZ, Irv’s involvement with painter ROY LICHTENSTEIN (who used Novick’s work in his paintings), Mr. Monster, FCA, and more!

Known as one of the finest inkers in comics history, the late TOM PALMER was also an accomplished penciler and painter, as you’ll see in an-depth interview with Palmer by ALEX GRAND and JIM THOMPSON. Learn his approach to, and thoughts on, working with NEAL ADAMS, GENE COLAN, JOHN BUSCEMA, and others who helped define the Marvel Universe. Plus Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, FCA, and more!

SUPER ISSUE! Superboy’s Bronze Age adventures, and interviews with GERARD CHRISTOPHER and STACY HAIDUK of the Superboy live-action TV series. Plus: Super Goof, Super Richie (Rich), Super-Dagwood, Super Mario Bros., Frank Thorne’s Far Out Green Super Cool, NICK MEGLIN and JACK DAVIS’ Superfan, and more! Featuring a Superboy and Krypto cover by DAVE COCKRUM! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships June 2023

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Aug. 2023

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(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!

BACK ISSUE #143

BACK ISSUE #144

BACK ISSUE #145

BACK ISSUE #146

BACK ISSUE #147

A special tribute issue to NEAL ADAMS (1941–2022), celebrating his Bronze Age DC Comics contributions! In-depth Batman and Superman interviews, ‘Green Lantern/Green Arrow’—Fifty Years Later, Neal Adams—Under the Radar, Continuity Associates, a ‘Rough Stuff’ pencil art gallery, Power Records, and more! Re-presenting Adams’ iconic cover art to BATMAN #227. (Plus: See ALTER EGO #181!)

BRONZE AGE SAVAGE LANDS, starring Ka-Zar in the 1970s! Plus: Turok—Dinosaur Hunter, DON GLUT’s Dagar and Tragg, Annihilus and the Negative Zone, Planet of Vampires, Pat Mills’s Flesh (from 2000AD), and WALTER SIMONSON and MIKE MIGNOLA’s Wolverine: The Jungle Adventure. With CONWAY, GULACY, HAMA, NICIEZA, SEARS, THOMAS, and more! JOHN BUSCEMA cover!

SPIDER-ROGUES ISSUE! Villain histories of Dr. Octopus, Lizard, Kingpin, Spidey’s mob foes, the Jackal and Carrion, Tarantula, Puma, plus the rehabilitation of Sandman! Featuring the work of ANDRU, SAL BUSCEMA, CONWAY, DeFALCO, GIL KANE, McFARLANE, MILLER, POLLARD, JOHN ROMITA JR. & SR., STERN, THOMAS, WEIN, WOLFMAN, and more! DUSTY ABELL cover!

MEN WITHOUT FEAR, featuring Daredevil’s swinging ’70s adventures! Plus: Challengers of the Unknown in the Bronze Age, JEPH LOEB interview about his Challs and DD projects with TIM SALE, Sinestro and Mr. Fear histories, superheroes with disabilities, and... Who Is Hal Jordan? Featuring CONWAY, ENGLEHART, McKENZIE, ROZAKIS, STATON, THOMAS, WOLFMAN, & more! GENE COLAN cover!

Great Hera, it’s the 20th ANNIVERSARY of BACK ISSUE, featuring a tribute to the late, great GEORGE PÉREZ! Wonder Woman: The George Pérez Years, Pérez’s 20 Greatest Hits of the Bronze Age, Pérez’s fanzine days, a Pérez remembrance by MARV WOLFMAN, a Wonder Woman interview with MINDY NEWELL, and more! With a stunning Wonder Woman cover by PÉREZ!

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!

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TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History. TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA

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ALTER EGO #182

An FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America) special, behind a breathtaking JERRY ORDWAY cover! Features on Uncle Marvel and the Fawcett Family by P.C. HAMERLINCK, ACG artist KENNETH LANDAU (Commander Battle and The Atomic Sub), and writer LEE GOLDSMITH (Golden Age Green Lantern, Flash, and others). Plus Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt by MICHAEL T. GILBERT, and more!

PRINTED IN CHINA

ALTER EGO #181

Special NEAL ADAMS ISSUE, featuring in-depth interviews with Neal by HOWARD CHAYKIN, BRYAN STROUD, and RICHARD ARNDT. Also: a “lost” ADAMS BRAVE & THE BOLD COVER with Batman and Green Arrow, and unseen Adams art and artifacts. Plus FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), MICHAEL T. GILBERT in Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and more! Edited by ROY THOMAS. (Plus: See BACK ISSUE #143!)