Comic Book Creator #36 by TwoMorrows Publishing

All characters TM & © DC Comics.

Satiate Your Sinister Side!

“Greetings, creep culturists! For my debut

All characters and properties TM & © their respective owners.

issue, I, the CRYPTOLOGIST (with the help of FROM THE TOMB editor PETER NORMANTON), have exhumed the worst Horror Comics excesses of the 1950s, Killer “B” movies to die for, and the creepiest, kookiest toys that crossed your boney little fingers as a child! But wait... do you dare enter the House of Usher, or choose sides in the skirmish between the Addams Family and The Munsters?! Can you stand to gaze at Warren magazine frontispieces by this issue’s cover artist BERNIE WRIGHTSON, or spend some Hammer Time with that studio’s most frightening films? And if Atlas pre-Code covers or terrifying science-fiction are more than you can take, stay away! All this, and more, is lurching toward you in TwoMorrows Publishing’s latest, and most decrepit, magazine—just for retro horror fans, and featuring my henchmen WILL MURRAY, MARK VOGER, BARRY FORSHAW, TIM LEESE, PETE VON SHOLLY, and STEVE and MICHAEL KRONENBERG!” (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99

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CRYPTOLOGY #2

CRYPTOLOGY #3

CRYPTOLOGY #4

The Cryptologist and his ghastly little band have cooked up more grisly morsels, including: ROGER HILL’s conversation with our diabolical cover artist DON HECK, severed hand films, pre-Code comic book terrors, the otherworldly horrors of Hammer’s Quatermass, another Killer “B” movie classic, plus spooky old radio shows, and the horror-inspired covers of the Shadow’s own comic book. Start the ghoul-year with retro-horror done right by FORSHAW, the KRONENBERGS, LEESE, RICHARD HAND, VON SHOLLY, and editor PETER NORMANTON.

This third wretched issue inflicts the dread of MARS ATTACKS upon you—the banned cards, the model kits, the despicable comics, and a few words from the film’s deranged storyboard artist PETE VON SHOLLY! The chilling poster art of REYNOLD BROWN gets brought up from the Cryptologist’s vault, along with a host of terrifying puppets from film, and more comic books they’d prefer you forget! Plus, more Hammer Time, JUSTIN MARRIOT on obscure ’70s fear-filled paperbacks, another Killer “B” film, and more to satiate your sinister side!

Our fourth putrid tome treats you to ALEX ROSS’ gory lowdown on his Universal Monsters paintings! Hammer Time brings you face-to-face with the “Brides of Dracula”, and the Cryptologist resurrects 3-D horror movies and comics of the 1950s! Learn the origins of slasher films, and chill to the pre-Code artwork of Atlas’ BILL EVERETT and ACG’s 3-D maestro HARRY LAZARUS. Plus, another Killer “B” movie and more awaits retro horror fans, by NORMANTON, the KRONENBERGS, LEESE, VOGER, and VON SHOLLY!

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Fa l l 2 0 2 4 • T h e To m P a l m e r I s s u e • N u m b e r 3 6

T A

About Our Cover Cover painting by TOM PALMER

COMICS CHATTER Wimmen’s Needs Marrs: Ye Ed profiles wonderful cartoonist Lee Marrs, famed for her hilarious Plop!, Wimmen’s Comix, Gay Comix, and Pudge, Girl Blimp work ............. 3 Once Upon Long Ago: Steve Thompson on his appreciation for Wallace Wood.............. 13 Public Servants: The meaningful comics of the Center for Cartooning Studies............... 14 Arnold Drake at 100: The second portion of Ye Ed.’s three-part interview with the legendary comics scribe on his comedic work at DC Comics, and more! ...................... 16

All characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Ten Questions: Darrick Patrick learns important writing lessons from David Pepose....... 28 Incoming: Jammin’ Jami reveals the real story behind CBC’s Howard the Duck cover..... 30 Dan DiDio: Greg Biga talks to the writer-editor about a journey from Flatbush to comics.34 Comics in the Library: Richard Arndt on Bea Wolf and Captain America: Ghost Army.... 44 Hembeck’s Dateline: Great Caesar’s ghost! It’s Daily Planet editor Perry White!............ 45 THE MAIN EVENT Above: CBC reader Jammin’ Jami Johnson shared a Comic Shop News article from 1987 that explained this painting of Captain America was one of four lithographs released by First Team Press. “A copy of the print was prepared by Tom Palmer and presented to President Reagan, where the work of art was accepted with their gratitude,” wrote CSN’s Cliff Biggers.

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BACK MATTER Creators at the Con: Kendall Whitehouse lenses multi-generational Marvel creators.... 78 Coming Attractions: Sterling Steve Englehart is our main event next time!................... 79 A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words: Tom Z. shares hand-colored Steve Oliff hues ..80 Right: We know, we know. You likely recognize this detail from the cover art of the recent Tom Palmer tribute issue of Alter Ego, #184 [Nov. 2023], our sister magazine, art which originally graced the last regular ish of The Avengers [#402, Sept. ’96] before all that “Heroes Reborn” numbering reboot nonsense. Still, ain’t it a beaut?

Comic Book Creator ™ is published quarterly by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Dr., Raleigh, NC 27614 USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Jon B. Cooke, editor. John Morrow, publisher. Comic Book Creator editorial offices: P.O. Box 601, West Kingston, RI 02892 USA. E-mail: jonbcooke@aol.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Four-issue subscriptions: $53 US, $78 International, $19 Digital. All characters are © their respective copyright owners. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter ©2024 Jon B. Cooke/ TwoMorrows. Comic Book Creator is a TM of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. ISSN 2330-2437. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING.

TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR is a proud joint production of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows

Tom Palmer: An Alchemy to His Art From an infirm childhood in Queens, when he fell in love with E.C. Comics, to his training as painter under a master’s instruction, to working with an E.C. legend in commercial advertising art, to his spectacular debut as inker extraordinaire at Marvel Comics in the late ’60s, and stellar career as among the very best in his profession, Thomas John Palmer talked about all this and more with our Greg Biga, covering a half-century in comics. Plus, in the wake of his 2022 passing, many of “Peerless” Tom’s peers share their memories and appreciation of the humble gent.... 46

This issue is dedicated to the memories of BOB BEERBOHM, MICHAEL DOWERS, RAMONA FRADON, PAUL NEARY, DON PERLIN, ™

JON B. COOKE

Editor & Designer

JOHN MORROW

Publisher & Consulting Editor

GREG BIGA

Associate Editor

TOM PALMER Cover Painter

RICHARD J. ARNDT TOM ZIUKO STEVEN THOMPSON Contributing Editors

J.D. KING

CBC Cartoonist Emeritus

TOM ZIUKO

CBC Colorist Supreme

RONN SUTTON

CBC Illustrator

KEN MEYER, JR.

CBC Color Portrait Artist

ROB SMENTEK CBC Proofreader

GREG PRESTON

CBC Contributing Photographer

KENDALL WHITEHOUSE RICHARD ARNDT FRED HEMBECK DARRICK PATRICK STEVEN THOMPSON TOM ZIUKO CBC Columnists

Contact CBC: jonbcooke@aol.com Jon B. Cooke P.O. Box 601 West Kingston, RI 02892 2

Weathering a cold spring season in this year’s comic book realm

So far, 2024 has been difficult, given the passTrina’s dedication to chronicling the lives ing of some old friends who helped me and and work of otherwise forgotten women in my endeavors along the way, especially comics and comic strips, and her unceasing Trina Robbins, the great cartoonist and hissupport of burgeoning female talent in the torian who died in April. My connection field, as well as her passionate, sometimes with her reaches back to Comic Book enraged, calling-out of misogyny and Artist magazine, when I, pretty much of smashing the boy’s club mentality of a nobody, asked Trina to guest-edit the undergrounds, speak to her tenacity, a portion of my tenth issue [Oct. courage, and generosity. That tiny little 2000], and I was grateful she jumped woman was an absolute giant. at that chance to helm the “Women I was actually last with Trina at the & the Comics” celebration. By 2023 San Diego Comic-Con, when we both then, she was recognized as the were nominated in the same category and premiere feminist advocate in inexplicably seated next to one another during the field and, with her welcoming the Eisner Awards. Alas, neither of us won acceptance, I felt honored for Trina for “Best Comics-Related Book,” but we, to respect me as a peer. in jovial, sporting fashion, had rooted for Then, over the years, I was in one another. As we broke for the evening, steady contact and was blessed to the two of us had a photo taken together be given the opportunity to design, and the feminist champion whispered to me lay-out, and contribute to some that I really should have won for The Charlton collections of her work, including Companion. Trina, thank you, and may God Dope and The Silver Metal Lover. For give you her eternal blessing in the afterlife. the former, I immersed myself into the The loss of Bob Beerbohm was also history of Sax Rohmer and of turna blow. I hadn’t spoken to him recently, of-the-last-century opiate addiction, though he had asked a mutual acquainmaking a significant text section she tance to tell me to call, and I regret not reconwas happy to see included. Part of my necting. In his way, Bob was a champion, dedication in spending unpaid weeks on too, of getting recognition for the “platinum that essay was in appreciation for the woman, who Tom Palmer by Ronn Sutton age of comics,” and he had often controverI held — and will always hold — in highest esteem. sial, important insights and opinions about the “comic book Only recently, for my forthcoming history of Last Gasp store wars,” in which he participated in the 1970s as shop of San Francisco, I interviewed the “herstorian” about her proprietor. Bob had written two installments of his “Origins association with Ron Turner, who published, as his second of the Direct Market” series for my Comic Book Artist, and he release, the first all-women comic book, It Ain’t Me Babe [July regularly told me he intended to submit a new installment he 1970]. During that last time calling her on the phone, Trina was readying. I always replied that the pages of my magazine was enthused, exuberant, and engaged as ever in sharing her would always welcome him again. Godspeed to you, BLB. love for Baba Ron, deeming him the father of women’s comics The devastating tragedy of the self-inflicted death of car(and personal savior during a bout of post-natal depression). toonist Ed Piskor almost puts me at a complete loss for words. In the aftermath of Trina’s demise, a new friend of mine, I’d been friendly with the young artist since he was a teen artist Becky Wilson, who had co-edited an issue of Wimmen’s collaborator with Jay Lynch, drawing their vignettes about Comix and helmed the one-shot all-women anthology, After/ hitherto unknown episodes in the history of underground Shock [Jan. ’82] (both for Last Gasp), called to ask if I could dig comix, and his intense ambition, unquestionable talent, and up some historical info for Trina’s partner, Steve Leialoha, and tremendous drive was breath-taking to observe. I was a fan of we got to talking. And it was only then, amidst our lengthy his work, and grateful recipient of his and Cartoonist Kayfabe conversation about our mutual friend, did the monumental partner Jim Rugg’s generous plug of that aforementioned Eisstature of the diminutive powerhouse come into focus for me. ner movie, giving DVD sales the legendary “Kayfabe bump.” I’ve had the luck to rub elbows with greatness in my life The circumstances behind his suicide stagger the heart — working with Will Eisner on a film documentary and also and speak to the casual cruelties permeating our age. As our engaging Robert Crumb into a project of mine — and now, in mutual pal Carol Tyler said as an epitaph for Ed: “Read More retrospect, having had Trina on my speed dial over the years Comics! Make More Comics! PLEASE BE KIND. The world counts as a third brush with an honest-to-goodness legend. needs more grace and kindness.” Amen to that, Carol.

cbc contributors

Richard Arndt Marek Bennett Howard Cruse Arnold Drake

Pamela Drake Clay Geerdes Tom Grummett Todd Klein

Paul Levitz Alan Light Lee Marrs Carlo Michelini

David Miller Dan Nott Ann Palmer Tom Palmer

— Y e Crusading Editor jonbcooke@aol.com

Tom Palmer, Jr. David Pepose Cory Sedlmeier James Strum

Bob Stevenson Marc Svensson Kendall Whitehouse

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

CBC Convention Photographer

A Herstoric Life

ED PISKOR, TRINA ROBBINS, and ENRIQUE BADIA ROMERO

up front

Wimmen’s Needs Marrs Lee Marrs on her traversing the worlds of mainstream, underground, and ground-level comics by JON B. COOKE

Lee Marrs portrait © the estate of Clay Geerdes. Courtesy of David Miller. The Further Fattening Adventures of Pudge, Girl Blimp TM & © Lee Marrs.

[NOTE: I’ve long admired Lee Marrs’ ability to span three different comics realms during her first decade in the art form — writing and cartooning for DC Comics in Plop! and other Joe Orlando-edited titles; being deeply involved in the San Francisco comix scene as one of the “founding mommies” of Wimmen’s Comix and launching an underground feature syndicate; as well as delving in the world of Star*Reach, her life partner Mike Friedrich’s “ground-level” outfit, which published her Pudge, Girl Blimp series. As we’ll discover, Lee also worked in newspaper comic strips, television news broadcasting, digital animation, Heavy Metal, Dark Horse Comics, and… well, just find out below! Most of the narrative biography of this remarkably talented person is derived from two interview sessions recently conducted by yours truly. — JBC] Montgomery, Alabama-born Annette Lee Marrs, sharing the same first name as her mother, was early on given the nickname “Sandy,” as she developed to become today’s multi-talented woman known today simply as Lee Marrs. “I started drawing when I was two,” the creative force explained, her initial sketches being “various lumps,” which were identified as salt and pepper shakers on the breakfast table. With a wry chuckle, she observed, “But I could see there was a striking out for verisimilitude at the time.” About comics, “I liked Scrooge McDuck, and Batman, and Batman, and Batman! I was a fanatic!” she exclaimed. “I liked Red Ryder… and the one strip I was just completely in love with was Pogo. I admired the drawing and just loved the stories. That was one of the first strips that was collected as a book, so I got, for Christmas presents, the books as they came out.”

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

To hone her art skills, the youngster copied the comic books and comic strips. “And, by the time I was in the sixth grade, I was creating murals in chalk on butcher paper which were hung on the side of the classroom. So I got out of a lot of work because I could draw. That was my main motivation, at the time.” In Montgomery, “There wasn’t much culture or much opportunity for drawing training in school.” But the determined girl had her mom’s support. “On Saturday mornings, I went to Mrs. Johnson’s art class, at the Montgomery Museum of Art, where I learned pastel work and stuff like that. My mother was always a cheerleader. Her ambition was for me to be a fine artist, because you could do that while you were married.” By the time she reached her mid-teens, “Sandy” had been cartoonist for her junior high newspaper. Then, at Robert E. Lee High School, “I was now cookin’ with gas,” she wrote in a blog entry. “Was my school’s head writer for ‘Teen Topics’ appearing every Friday in the Montgomery Advertiser-Journal, named art director of the Scabbard yearbook my sophomore year, cartoonist for Stars and Bars school newspaper, etc., etc. In my pond, I was a big frog.” It was on the high school paper staff where, Lee later told Mark James Estren, she “learned the joy of social commentary. Allegories, thinly disguised critiques — ho boy! Poking fun at the faculty and getting away with it. Delicious!” Ultimately, the young lady’s plan was to put that irreverence to work as a professional editorial cartoonist. But that “big frog” status was shaken when, because of a Cold War crisis, Lee was forced to relocate to Europe with parents and siblings (she had three younger brothers that she bossed around) . Her father, Dr. Theodore C. Marrs, was assigned to the Dreux Louvilliers Air Base, in France. As a military family, “We moved around a lot,” she revealed. “When the Berlin Wall was being built, Kennedy sent the Alabama National Guard over to France because it was a reconnaissance unit. So they flew back and forth taking pictures of what was going on. And my mother — illegally — took all of us over to France on a tourist visa, so the six of us lived sneakily in a two-person trailer behind the base hospital.” Soon enough, Lee returned to the states with her kin, finished out high school in Virgina, and felt a sense of profound detachment from the Land of Dixie. “It was like living in an alien culture, because not only was I an artist and liberal (because my

Above: Lee Marrs in a photo by Clay Geerdes taken at the 1974 Berkeley Comic Con. Inset left: First issue of Pudge, Girl Blimp, initially published by Last Gasp [’73] and reprinted by Star*Reach in ’74. Below: Lee’s American University senior portrait, 1967.

parents were liberal),* but I was also super-smart. I was tested and discovered to be four years older intellectually, and my mom, quite smartly, refused to have me put forward into the upper grades, because she saw that, socially,” Lee said with a chuckle, “I was kind of backward. So I’m very happy she didn’t do that. Being an intellectual female in the South was like being a rhinoceros.” This page: It is remarkable that Lee Marrs’ cartooning ability was so advanced while attending American University in the mid-1960s. Above is her cover art for AU’s alumni magazine, Lodestar, Vol. 21, #2 [Sum. ’67]. Inset right is her spread satirizing faculty, in Lodestar Vol. 20, #3 [Fall ’66]. Below are illustrations of typical students rendered by Lee for Lodestar Vol. 20 #1 [Spr. ’66]. In that same issue, Lee and future Washington Post TV critic Tom Shales were among the campus personalities chosen to participate in a roundtable discussion on issues facing young people on America’s college campuses.

of Juliet Jones, and many others. Most importantly, after drawing backgrounds on the Little Orphan Annie strip, he assumed all art chores after creator Harold Gray’s death, in 1968, toiling on the feature until his departure in ’73. Tex would often tell people his proudest professional accomplishment was assisting Hal Foster on Prince Valiant and that the most fun he had was on Popeye, ghosting for Bud Sagendorf, who wrote the gags. “For Little Orphan Annie,” Lee said about her art assists, “I would have to use my left hand with a Crowquill pen in order to be as shaky as Harold Gray was in those days. I started out by just filling in all the blacks for Hi and Lois, On Stage, and Prince Valiant. I finally graduated to rocks for Prince Valiant and then I did chain mail… and if you’ve ever spent any time trying to ink chain mail… ugh, geez, there’s nothing that’s been any harder than that! And all of this is on a deadline!” Indeed, they might work late Friday, all day Saturday, and into Sunday morning to get the jobs done. Describing Tex, Lee said, “He was very funny, and he was a drunk, but he was a functional drunk, so he would get drunk late at night and then somehow pull himself together the next morning. He was amazingly skilled. He would do Christmas cards every year, making fun of various members of his family. And they were fantastic! He could capture anybody with just a few brushstrokes. He was really so much better than any of the commercial work… and he was a really sweet guy. He really was, but he wasn’t ambitious. He never wanted to propose a comic strip. He was more just an artist — I don’t mean to be derogatory — but he didn’t write or create things in that way.” At American University, Lee was, to paraphrase a gender-specific term given to male college movers and shakers, a “Big Woman on Campus,” widely admired for her smart, biting editorial cartoons in The Eagle. She was also respected for her opinions, as evidenced by Lee’s participation in a 1966 roundtable discussion regarding “The Student Voice” published in the school’s alumni magazine.

All © the respective copyright holders

BWOC After high school graduation, “I definitely didn’t want to go back to the South for college,” so she enrolled in American University, in Washington, D.C., where she served as cartoonist on the campus newspaper and their quarterly alumni magazine, Lodestar. Also on staff at The Eagle was a future famous cultural critic. The December 4, 1964, edition stated, “The movie goer turns to Tom Shales for perceptive reviewing of the performing arts. And, for humor and wit, the cartoons of Lee Marrs brighten the pages of The Eagle. When speaking at the university, Herblock, Washington Post political cartoonist, said of Miss Marrs, ‘I think she’s just great.’” (Asked whether she was friendly with Shales, who would become a nationally syndicated and revered television reviewer, Lee said, “We were close buds, both of us being clever, irritating blabbermouths.”) “When I went to college, I roomed with Tex Blaisdell’s daughter, Barbara, who’s still my best friend,” Lee said. “We met because she came into the college newspaper office and wanted to meet Lee Marrs.” Discovering the Eagle artist was — ye ghads! — a woman, Barbara’s shocked reaction wasn’t unusual, Lee said, “as I have an ambisextrous name… We laughed at that mistake and eventually became good friends.” Comics veteran Tex Blaisdell lived on Long Island, and when, during a holiday break, Lee visited her roomie, Barb’s father chanced a look at her portfolio. “He was of the generation who didn’t believe that girls could draw, so he was amazed I could do all this kind of stuff. So I assisted him. I would go up on Fridays, to New York from D.C., and come back Sunday night. Over the weekend, I would help him on all these different backgrounds.” Philip Eustice Blaisdell [1920–99] — yes, a native of the Lone Star state — had worked in comic books from its early years to the mid-’50s, and would return in the late ’60s, first as an inker for buddy Joe Orlando’s titles at DC Comics. But, mostly, Tex worked as art assist on a plethora of syndicated newspaper comic strips, including The Spirit, Dondi, Li’l Abner, On Stage, Apartment 3-G, The Heart * How liberal? Lee said that, at her 50th reunion, she bumped into an old Montgomery high school classmate who cheerfully exclaimed, “Oh, the Marrs family! Y’all were communists!”

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Little Orphan Annie TM & © Tribune Media Services, Inc. THX 1138 TM & © Warner Bros. Entertainment, Inc.

FINDING HER ART IN SAN FRANCISCO In 1967, graduating cum laude, Lee received her bachelor’s degree in art, and was determined to become an editorial cartoonist. She told the alternative newsletter, Sipapu, “Although I’d never met him, Herblock (Herbert Block), renowned cartoonist for the Washington Post, saw my college newspaper editorial cartoons, and told the editor to send me over for aid/advice when I graduated, I appeared in his office to hear the words that echo my entire career — ‘But you’re a girl!’* His comments were accurate, if discouraging: syndication of the star editorial cartoonists made it difficult for any local talent, and there were no women editorial cartoonists [in the U.S.]. But, if I really wanted to, [Herblock advised] I should go back to my hometown and try. There was no way that liberal me was gonna get anywhere on an Alabama newspaper. I spent the summer avoiding jobs at NASA, NIH, and other dead-end illustration fields to land ‘The Perfect Job’ — doing editorial cartoons and illustrations for WTOP-TV, the Post-Newsweek station, in Washington.” At the D.C. TV station, Lee thrived. “I loved it!” She disclosed her duties to Sipapu, in 1975: “Slides, news, graphics, weather maps, sets for shows, sketching at trials, documentaries: all of these things you see on TV are created by full-time artists. I really enjoyed working there and would probably still be a TV artist if an administrative changeover hadn’t dumped half the employees on the street.” After two years at WTOP — where, she said, she became politically radicalized upon seeing evidence of atrocities from the Vietnam war-zone — the artist told The Berkeley Gazette, “It all went well, she recalls, until a know-nothing art director and lush came on the scene. The work soured under his bad direction, she says. “Then, with a literal coin flip, she chose San Francisco over New Orleans as a place to start over. That was in 1969, a bad time to be starting over. In the months that followed, she worked as a fitting room checker, store detective, and door-to-door surveyor (‘What would you think of a man who used a portable mouth-spray?’)” Did that flip of a coin reposition the trajectory of her life? “Yes, absolutely! Totally changed it! For one thing, I was away from my family… as charming as my family was — and they were charming — they were both overbearing, always. And there were all these family responsibilities and all that kind of crap.” Lee’s Bay Area TV gig lasted a total of two weeks, she said. “Last hired: first fired, so they let me go, along with the art director who had been there for 20-something years. So already, I was out of a job in San Francisco but, in those two weeks, I had already converted! This was definitely the place for me.” Soon she got a job as a Macy’s display artist and started hanging around Francis Ford * Who knows about the contradiction of Herblock being quoted by The Eagle as referring to Lee as ‘she’ in 1964 and then being surprised at her gender after her college graduation in ’67. Perhaps it was a campus newspaper copy editor’s “correction,” adding an “s” to “he’s”…?

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Coppola’s American Zoetrope Studio in town. “So I got a few projects, including the newspaper ads for THX-1138, and the Indians had taken over Alcatraz and there was [an ultimately unreleased] documentary, for which I did artwork. So this looked like a place I could stay… It was a really lively place to work.” But Zoetrope lost its Warner Bros. funding and Lee went on unemployment. “After that,” The Berkeley Gazette reported, “Ms. Marrs found lucrative but uninspired work in the art department of [Standard Oil]. One slide show she did ‘was aimed at hip San Francisco dudes to convince them they should work for gas stations instead of holding them up.’ She recalls the time as one in which she was called on to draw oil drops to look like Superman….” “I got the most benevolent job that you can have at Standard Oil of California! I was their ‘retirement party cartoonist.’” Out of the company’s many thousands of employees, two or so executives would retire each month and Lee then produced a giant caricature surrounded by humorous vignettes to be signed by co-workers and framed for presentation. She would phone their wives — “These were all men, of course” she said about the retirees — “And I would say, ‘This is a total secret, so don’t tell him. Can you send me Xeroxes of any photos from any [life events to be drawn]?’ And she would say, ‘Oh, the most crucial thing to happen was…’ blahblah-blah.” In addition, if there was a retirement party to accompany the presentation, Lee was to create illos for a slideshow. “These were supposed to be dirty… this was the ‘official statement’: they were supposed to be dirty!” She added with a laugh, “Now, this was, of course, before the underground cartooning that I did, but I have that kind of mindset anyway!” While still at Standard, Lee met writer Mal Warwick in 1970, who had joined with future environmental science and policy specialist John J. Berger to create the Alternative Features Service, described by Warwick as, “a news and feature service for college and commu-

Above: Tex Blaisdell’s entry in the 1980 National Cartoonists Society Album, showcasing his extended association with Harold Gray’s Little Orphan Annie comic strip, on which he assisted and, upon Gray’s passing in 1968, produced the art entirely — with the help of Lee Marrs as his assistant! Inset left: A 1971 notice in the underground newspaper, The Berkeley Tribe, announcing the launch of a syndication, Alternative Features Service, an outfit which was run until 1973 by Lee and two partners. Below: Serendipitously, Lee found work for a brief time at Francis Ford Coppola’s American Zoetrope Studios, where she worked on a documentary and on newspaper ads for George Lucas’s debut film.

few other editors at DC. Joe was the person I clicked with, of course, because he wanted to start [DC humor comic title] Plop! This was maybe a year before he started it. In those days, there were very few — I can’t even remember any, either writers or artists, who lived beyond the greater New York City area who worked on comic books… so Joe really liked my humor stuff. So he began to send me work. He would FedEx the script to me, I would do the pencils and FedEx them back, and then they’d send the lettered pages back to me, and I would ink everything and send the final work back to them.” Not only did she get cartooning work at DC, but the editor also made use of her writing ability. “Joe, of course, knew everybody from his MAD magazine days and even before then, and a lot of these old farts were beyond their sell-by date, but he would take story scripts from them and he would send them to me, and I would punch them up and make them funny. So I had steady work for a few years but, with his buying all of these scripts from all of these old farts, he had an inventory that would fill a storehouse. And this was of great concern to his assistant, Paul Levitz.” With a chuckle, she said about the future DC publisher, “I met Paul when he was, I think, in high school, when he had only half a mustache!”

Above: For “comix attorney” Albert Morse, the Wimmen’s Comix collective produced this group self-portrait in 1972. Lee is the woman enjoying a beverage. Below: In 1977, S.F.’s Art for Art’s Sake gallery hosted the “3 Women Cartoonists” retrospective of art by [from left] Trina Robbins, Sharon Rudahl, and Lee Marrs.

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All TM & © the respective copyright holders.

UP INTO THE UNDERGROUND Before her Plop! contributions, which brought Lee to the attention nity newspapers.” The two men had solicited Lee to create the AFS of mainstream comic fans, she had encountered the art of Trina logo and letterhead, “And, after we met and talked for a couple of Robbins while searching for material to syndicate. AFS was based meetings,” Lee said, “they asked me to become their third partner.” in Berkeley, “Off of Telegraph Avenue,” she said, “where there were Soon after launching the company, “Lee and I moved in together,” tons of head shops back in the day, so I saw in the window here Warwick told the Barebones website, “and we remained together were comic books. But they weren’t the usual comic books, so I until nearly the end of the decade.” (During their time as a couple, went inside and discovered underground comix and it seemed like usually in projects initiated by Lee, Warwick had a brief career as the perfect combination. You could own your own work and you a comics writer, producing scripts for DC’s mystery books and, in could put down anything and everything you saw or thought.” collaboration with Lee, stories for Star*Reach Productions.) She added, “I had already learned from Tex and his friend Joe “Alternative Features Service was a dream come true in a lotta Orlando that working in comic strips was a complete dead end, ways for a lotta people,” Lee told because you worked seven days a week, you were always behind, Sipapu. “But not financially. We you didn’t own anything, and you got paid a pittance. What was sent stuff about the counter-cul- appealing about that? And I wasn’t interested in drawing the ture, investigative reporting, super-hero kind of comics, which were the only thing around then. cartoons and graphics to So seeing the undergrounds was a revelation. It was really great!” subscribers all over the world.” About comix, she told Sipapu, “It seemed an ideal medium By 1973, AFS was kaput. “It died for all the things I like to do — be funny, write stories, make social in time,” The Berkeley Gazette commentary, sleep late, and draw. There was only one catch — you reported, “because subscribers couldn’t do undergrounds and eat, too. They paid only $25 a page were not paying their bills.” on publication. It was — and still is, to a large extent — like working In that 1976 Gazette piece, for free. So I had to wait until I had enough money to afford to do Lee shared about a period (prob- underground comix.” ably before her move to S.F.) That time came when, she continued, “In 1972, several women when she investigated the Big artists in the Bay Area got together to start an all-women’s-work Apple freelance scene. “I trotted comic. They had been trying for years to get into the already around. I went to New York, existing books, but had met the same sort of sexism and exclusivity checked in at MAD magazine that was rampant in the straight world. I had not been able to and all that. I discovered comic get anywhere either in the much shorter period I’d been trying. books were put out by a factory Being more or less locked out of the closed shops, we started… system.” The Gazette then paraWimmen’s Comix.” And, she said, it was from underground comix phrased, “This system involved publisher Ron Turner of Last Gasp, when first she caught wind of no fewer than five people: a sto- the proposed anthology. “He was the one who directed me to the ry writer, penciler, inker, letterer, first meeting of the Wimmen’s Comix people.” and colorist. Women were [only] When she went to Last Gasp, Lee was making the circuit to find being hired as colorists.” an interested comix publisher for a character she was developing. In fact, by the early ’70s, “I brought the first story for Pudge, Girl Blimp, to Ron Turner,” creative opportunities for she told Alex Dueben. “I was taking this around to Print Mint and women had been opening up Rip-off Press, and all of them. Turner said that he was interested at the House of Superman and * Tex and Joe Orlando knew one another since their days freelancing Lee was able to secure some for Lloyd and Grace Jacquet, who, in the ’40s and early ’50s, packwork from an old buddy of Tex aged comics for numerous publishers, first as Funnies, Inc. Young Blaisdell. “Tex introduced me to Italian immigrant Giuseppe Antonio Orlando collaborated with Tex on Joe Orlando,”* she said, “and a Catholic Comics assignments for Charlton Comics between 1947–50.

Wimmen’s Comix cover art, “So, Ya Wanna Be an Artist?” © Lee Marrs.

in doing the book, but I should get together with this bunch of women because they were going to put out a book. Pat Moodian was corralling a bunch of women together to put out a book. I contacted her and there was the first meeting was already scheduled and so I showed up at the first meeting.” Looking at her early college work, nascent underground material, and professional comics pages, one is impressed by Lee’s seemingly effortless drawing skill, remarkably original style, and innate storytelling ability. Plus, she is a very, very funny cartoonist. For A History of Underground Comics [1974], Lee spoke about the appeal of her chosen form of expression to author Mark James Estren. “Doing cartoons gives me a real charge. I enjoy doing a lot of different artwork, but cartooning is dessert, banana splits, Hershey bars, Eskimo pie. I act out all the expressions, voices, live the whole scene as I draw. The nearest thing to making my own movies I can afford… Primarily, I want to make people laugh. To see what happens to them every day in a new light and laugh, even ruefully. Life is crazy, absurd. Cartoons now are neck-and-neck with real life. Few exaggerations are too extreme — next week, you’ll see it on the six o’clock news… I have some of the down-home Zen Methodist in me, too. The political cartoonist lives on in some brain recess. Commentary sneaks in here and there. I guess my ideal reader would read a panel, laugh hysterically, and five minutes later see some insight they hadn’t gotten to before… Being a lifelong aggressive female, I dig stories centered on women. Having women be who they really are/could be in comix is one of the innovative potentials of underground comix. In the undies, as well as everywhere else, we have had the bubble-headed busty babes with insatiable lusts or the malevolent busty babes with insatiable lusts. Not saying my insatiable lusts are less than any other babe’s, still there are a few alternative characters. There’s a whole world outside and many worlds inside — anything should be possible!” A year or so after their first meeting, Ron Turner did eventually publish the first issue of Pudge, though Lee had pondered whether the character’s debut story should be included in the inaugural issue of Wimmen’s Comix [Nov. ’72]. “I had trouble placing her with a comix publisher,” she told Sipapu, “She isn’t beautiful or sexy, there’s no violence angle or horror twist. The Wimmen’s Comix collective was interested, but the first sequence was too long… so it was another year before Pudge could come out on her own.” In the meantime, Lee had stories in Wimmen’s, and also edited the second issue [’73] and drew the cover of #3 [Oct. ’73], as well as contributed the cover painting for the Manhunt one-shot [July ’73] and contributed a one-pager in El Perfecto [’73]. (Around this same period, as Watergate was consuming the Nixon presidency, Lee’s father, Dr. Theodore C. Marrs, served in the White House as the assistant secretary of defense for reserve affairs. During the Ford Administration that followed, he was special assistant for human resources, working on such issues as draft dodger amnesty, MIAs, and the plight of war refugees. Retiring at the rank of Air Force brigadier general, he and Lee’s mom (who died in 2012) moved to New Mexico, in 1976, where — according to his 1990 Albuquerque Journal obituary — the couple focused on “civic affairs, particularly music, area museums, and programs for [Native American] Indians.”) The ultimate goal of Wimmen’s Comix, Lee explained to Dueben, was to give exposure to the work of neophyte artists. “We all had different aims for it. We saw pretty quickly that there was going to be no money involved, but one thing that was really important to us was that as many women as possible be given this chance. Because we had a venue that could give people a chance to have their work seen, COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

it was important for us to have about half of the book be either beginners or people who hadn’t had a chance to work in comics before. This was a tenet that we held to for the whole 20 years. It was pretty admirable, I think. However, by deciding to do that, that meant that the book would never be a superior piece of art that could be seen as a classic comic work of art. There would always be work in it that was artistically marginal or had a lame story or whatever. It was a serious decision.” Equally serious was choosing someone to edit any given issue of the anthology. With occasional laughter, she told Dueben, “In those days — this was California, remember — just about everything anybody was involved with was a collective. It was a time when all kinds of different systems and assumptions about how things worked were challenged. All of us quickly saw how much trouble it was going to be putting together a book. There wasn’t anybody who thought, ‘Oh boy, I’ll take over and be the editor and this will be my vision and I’ll be in charge.’ It was more like, ‘This is going

Above: Begging your — and the cartoonist’s — forgiveness, Ye Ed. has censored the erect male appendage detail… that’s what’s behind the gray box, readers… in this outstanding Lee Marrs single-pager from Wimmen’s Comix #2 [’73], the issue that she edited of the ground-breaking feminist comic book [’72–92].

Inset left: Lee drew the cover for the very next issue — the “Fun and Games” edition — of Wimmen’s Comix, #3 [Oct. ’73], an illustration depicting an over-committed, excessively obligated typical American white woman’s life journey from that era of women’s lib. 7

to be a goddamn pile of sh*t to get through and who’s going to take it on?’ It was almost like drawing straws. We had all kinds of stuff going on in our lives. It was pretty much a matter of who’s going to be a little less busy in the next five or six months in order to put the book together.”

Above: Lee Marrs produced this full pager featuring her signature character for the 1973 Berkeley Con souvenir book. Note the premature announcement for a forthcoming “Pudge” feature planned for Ms. magazine.

Inset right: Lee moved her Pudge, Girl Blimp series over to Star*Reach Publishing in 1974. Mike Friedrich reprinted #1 and published #2 [Apr. ’75] and #3 [Oct. ’77] of the title.

Bottom: Lee hints at the help of “diverse hands” in the “thanks” text alongside this detail of the inside back cover — sporting a self caricature of the cartoonist — in Pudge, Girl Blimp #2.

ALONG COMES PUDGE Simultaneous to what was going on with her career-wise at the time, there was Lee’s decision to devote a series to the plumb teenager character. Sara Century, in a Lee Marrs “pride-ography” on the SyFy website, neatly described what would result in the cartoonist’s greatest claim to fame: “The comix work for which she is best known, The Further Fattening Adventures of Pudge, Girl Blimp, is a story about body positivity, female sexuality, and following one’s dreams to the bitter end. At the age of 17, Pudge becomes interested in the hippie movement and decides to relocate to the Bay Area with the express goal of losing her virginity. Marrs portrays Pudge with a tender understanding that is rare in any medium. Though the series only lasted three issues, it left a mark on the underground comics world. A later [collection] included a foreword by Gloria Steinem, ultimately acknowledging the contributions of counter-culture queer feminists. Marrs had done significant work and commentary around a feeling of exclusion from the mainstream feminist movement that many queer women felt in the time, and Steinem’s foreword felt like a small step in righting some of those wrongs.” Interestingly, “Pudge” was promoted as an upcoming feature in Ms., the iconic feminist magazine founded by Steinem, but that Ms. feature was never to be. The problem, it turned out, was the mag’s contents (not unlike Wimmen’s Comix) were determined by up or down votes by committee. “I sent ‘Pudge’ stories to them and months went by, and I went to their New York office and met Gloria Steinem and various other people there, who were all very friendly and congenial, but… having a bunch of people decide on funny stories or on comics — it doesn’t work. Nobody has the same sense of humor and a lot of women just didn’t get the jokes.” Thus any regular “Pudge” comic strip in Ms. received the thumbs down. But there was, albeit briefly, a bright side for the artist. “They liked the drawing style and most of them thought it was funny, so they commissioned me to do up a story rough about an older woman, who was a feminist living in a commune, and her adventures of trying to get the younger people in the commune on the

stick about feminism. So I did, I guess, about three or four stories and sent them, and months went by. Didn’t hear from them, so I began calling, and didn’t get any response. Finally, I got a letter and a check from Gloria, for a lot of money at the time — $150 — and she said it just wasn’t going to happen, that she wasn’t able to convince other people to run with it. And the check wasn’t signed! So I sent the check back to her and they sent it back.” For Lee, the kill fee took some of the sting out of the rejection and, she added, “It made Gloria my lifelong friend. She did the foreword for the book version of Pudge, Girl Blimp [2016].” So, often, when the legendary feminist was in town, they’d get together for coffee, and Lee added, “Sometimes, if she landed in Oakland, I’d pick her up at the airport.” Regarding the character’s origins, Lee told Sipapu: “Pudge came around 1970. I saw how other cartoonists had locked themselves into a character, without much opportunity for growth. I saw in her a chance to express some of the personal things women go through, comment on the times, and deal with things in my own life. But I soon found out that Pudge wanted to do things her own way. I wanted her to be from the South, like me, and to be very much more aware of what was going on: intelligent, a critic.* But

* In the Star*Reach Companion [2013], Lee told author Richard Arndt, “I came up with a storyline featuring a central character: a teenybopper intellectual who was an outsider — very MAD magazine existentialist. But once I started working on it, penciling that character, she became someone else.” 8

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Pudge, Girl Blimp TM & © Lee Marrs.

she refused to be this. She said she came from Normal, Illinois, and had never, ever been laid.” Lee insisted, “All of the stories in Pudge are true stories. They are warped in order to fit one character, but they’re all based on things that happened not only to me but my friends.” When the first issue was released, Clay Geerdes opined in his underground newspaper “Comix World” column, “Lee Marrs’ Pudge is one of those undergrounds you can laugh at… Lee shows the reader what a modern woman goes through when she happens to be born looking different, i.e., other than the way Playboy thinks she ought to look. Pudge comes to San Francisco in search of sex and love, and finds it isn’t all that easy to come by, love generation or no. A

“A Nose to Remember” TM & © DC Comics. The Compleat Fart & Other Body Emmissions TM & © Lee Marrs.

lot of us forget that life in those acid times of yore wasn’t that much different for fat people and other outsiders than it had always been. Ever see a 250-pound flower child in a mag? Neither did I until Pudge came along.” The cartoonist was confident that an ongoing series would have legs. “I thought to myself that I had all these friends just starting out with life experiences that had not seen the light of day in print, books, short stories, anywhere,” she told Arndt. “So the idea of taking all their stories and having them happen to one character seemed like a possibility for endless stories — years of stories.” Yet, as she was compelled to stay true to the character, the “Further Fattening Adventures” had to come to an end. The problem arose because, Lee said to Arndt, “I had created a character whose main characteristic was naiveté. So it turned out that she really didn’t have endless numbers of stories. It would be false, I think, to have continued without her gaining some experience and wisdom. After a time, she would have just seemed stupid to just continually have that kind of attitude. I ended the strip after three issues.” With Lee wrapping up her teenaged character’s exploits with #3 [Oct. ’77], the July ’77 edition of Sipapu (apparently, given the date, getting an advance look) related, “Pudge does indeed get laid, is disappointed at the initial sensation, but has already had experiences with another woman, and is now set free of her hangups to enter any number of possible roles — president, astronaut, star, ditch digger — after a li’l ol’ snack. What she is unlikely to do is to go back to Normal, Illinois, and be an ordinary wife and mother (actually, Pudge would never be ordinary in any role).” Over the years, though a teen no more, Pudge would be subsequently appear here and there, including in the pages of Gates of Eden #1 [May ’82], Dope Comix #2 [June ’82], and Sexy Chix [2006]. AND THEN THERE’S PLOP! While the word “weird” appearing in a series title wasn’t expressly forbidden by the Comics Code Authority, publisher members were understandably reluctant to use it for the 15 years since the CCA had effectively crushed E.C. Comics, lamented publisher of Weird Science and Weird Fantasy. But, in 1971, with the Code’s liberalization, DC Comics was determined to get weird all over, as Joe Orlando told me, “I started using the word and Carmine decided that ‘Weird’ sold anything. Weird War, Weird Western, Weird Worlds, Weird Mystery.” Naturally, then the idea came to do “The Magazine of Weird Humor,” and Plop! [’73–76] was born. MAD magazine’s superb “marginal” cartoonist, Sergio Aragonés, who co-created the title with publisher Carmine Infantino and Orlando, told Dewey Cassell, “One of my ideas was to use underground cartoonists because by then they were very popular, but they didn’t have many jobs. And they were such great cartoonists. So they used Lee Marrs.” By then, underground cartoonist or not, Lee was already on Orlando’s short list. “Joe knew I was really interested in and good at humor, “ she explained to Cassell, “so the minute the series was announced, he called.” Speaking of her acquaintance with the editor (previously a longtime contributor to MAD magazine), Lee said, “Joe published more women’s work than any other [editor in mainstream comics] at that time. I guess it was because I was an artist like him, but I have to say, the first couple of times I went to New York, after meeting him, we had lunches where he indicated that… let’s see, how shall I put this?… he kind of came on to me, but I politely — and must say, with a bit of humor — deflected him. And, after that, there wasn’t anything untoward that occurred between us. He was a funny guy and I could usually keep him laughing… but I didn’t have that experience [of overt sexism] from him at all.” Maybe twice a year during that era, Lee would fly back to the East Coast to remind publishers and editors that she was available for freelance work, whether commercial illustration or comics. She contributed art to High Times, Galaxy magazine, Viva, Forecast FM, Washington, The Washington Post, and Saturday Review, among COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

others. “When I was in New York, I would just hang out at the DC offices,” where Orlando had her exceptional humor work appear in seven issues of Plop!, including the classic, “A Nose to Remember,” written by Mary Skrenes (behind Steve Skeates’ credit line). One of those visits to New York City involved the DC publisher, Lee said. “My interaction with Carmine had to do with The Compleat Fart & Other Body Emissions.” (That humorous underground one-shot would eventually see print by Kitchen Sink by early 1977.) “I had already done up the artwork for [KSP publisher] Denis Kitchen, but I was coming to New York and had the artwork with me. So I was showing this to Joe Orlando and Carmine came in. Then he was laughing away and he said, ‘Oh, this is such a great idea! We could do this and we could do that! Can I take the first story to my office and think about this?’ I thought, ‘There’s no way that DC would publish anything like this!’ But I said, ‘Sure, fine,’ so he tacked it up in his office and, oh, maybe a week later, he called and said, ‘Well, you can come by and get your originals. I put this forth to the editorial board’ — or whoever, which I think was bullsh*t — ‘but we just can’t use it and it’s such a shame because it’s so funny,’ and blah-blah-blah.’”

Above: From Plop! #9 [Feb. ’75]. Below: Lee Marrs one-shot published by Kitchen Sink [’76].

Above: Lee Marrs’ exceptional “Stark’s Quest” serial concluded in Star*Reach #18 [Oct. ’79], for which she drew the cover. Left: Vignette from the second chapter, in #14 [Aug. ’78]. Below: Mike Friedrich and Lee enjoying some photos at the 1982 San Diego Comic-Con. Photo by Alan Light.

After departing Little Orphan Annie, Lee’s old friend Tex Blaisdell was given inking assignments by DC, and the opportunity arose for the veteran artist to edit a pair of mystery titles, which doubtless came as a result of his friendship with Orlando. While helming Tales of Ghost Castle and Weird Mystery Tales in late ’74 and early ’75, Tex called upon Lee to write and draw two stories, such as the gloriously macabre “A Feline Feast.” With Tex — to whom Lee dedicated The Compleat Fart: “Longtall Tex, veteran cartoonist, and the helping hand that suckered me into this goddam bizness many moons ago” — she also got work for then-partner Mal Warwick, who scripted a handful of stories for Weird Mystery and Tales of Ghost Castle. “Writing for comics,” Warwick told the Bare Bones website, “was only a very minor chapter of my life in the 1970s… I have very few regrets. Writing for comics was not one of the highlights of my life, but I’m certainly not ashamed of the work I did, no matter how mediocre it was.”

* Lee chided the Last Gasp publisher. “I would be talking with Ron and he’d say, ‘Oh, these letters came in and I’ll send them to you!’ But I’d never get them and so I would go in and he’d say, ‘Now, where are those…?’ They were probably in some pile in the back room… Efficiency and neatness were never Last Gasp’s hallmark, I must say!” 10

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Star*Reach TM & © Mike Friedrich. “Stark’s Quest” TM & © Lee Marrs. Photo courtesy of Alan Light.

STAR*REACH In those years, the main comic book convention to attend, Lee said, was San Diego. “Starting in the early ’70s, a bunch of us would go down [from S.F.] every year and, between Pudge and Wimmen’s Comix, I would get on panels… and sold books, but actually I began to get noticed through the Star*Reach work more than Pudge, initially. I would get a lot of fan letters for Pudge, particularly once I shifted to Star*Reach as the publisher (because then I would actually get the letters!).”* A mainstream comics scripter since 1967, Mike Friedrich was the presence behind Star*Reach Productions, a California-based publishing company of so-called “ground-level” comics, the term given to the hybrid part-underground/part-mainstream contents of its offerings. Those included Star*Reach [18 issues, ’74–79], Imagine [three issues, ’78], Quack! [six issues, ’76–77], all to which Lee would contribute. There were also a few one-shots, and, of course, the three issues of her mag-size Pudge, Girl Blimp [’74–78], including a reprint of #1. “I met Mike in New York,” Lee said, “and the story we tell is that he met me on a Friday and I met him on the following Tuesday. For him meeting me, it was outside Marv Wolfman’s office, where I was just leaving, because I’d been given an assignment for Crazy magazine, so Mike was coming into the office, and we were introduced then. But I didn’t remember that (and I still don’t), though I believe him! On the following Tuesday, we were taking the annual bus trip to the color separators… and they would feed us a steak lunch… As were driving up on the bus, someone said, ‘Oh, you’re from California. So is Mike Friedrich,’ so we wave to each other, thinking, ‘Out of all of California…!’ So Mike took me under his wing, so to speak, and ‘man-splained’ all kinds of things about what was going on [at the color separators]… So, as we’re being driven back to New York, I showed him the first issue of Pudge, Girl Blimp, so he was totally intrigued and impressed.” Friedrich had decided to return to his native California and, Lee said, “He thought at the time, to create an ad agency of comic book artists… so I called him up and he said, ‘C’mon in,’ and so we met in this strange space. I remember [letterer] Tom Orzechowski was there and I showed [Friedrich] my portfolio, and he said okay. But I realized, from this meeting, that he didn’t know how any kind of ad agency worked, he didn’t have any contacts, he didn’t have anything other than an idea, so I thought to myself, ‘Okay, that’s it.’ Then, some months later, once he had decided he was going to do Star*Reach [Publishing] — he might have even already put out one issue — he asked, ‘Would you like to submit things to this?’ I said, ‘Sure, fine.’ At the time, I was living with [Mal Warwick]… and we created a series called ‘Earthprobe.’” About that series, Lee admitted to Richard Arndt, “Mal was writing them and I was drawing them. We really didn’t work well together. I was living with him at the time. He was a good science

fiction writer. It seemed like a good idea, but he and I had such different ideas about what made a good story that the awkwardness of that series was quite clear. It came out in the quality of the work. We didn’t do any more stories together.” Warwick told the Barebones website, “Lee is a brilliant comic artist, and it was an honor and a pleasure to work with her. I stopped writing for comics for two reasons: I found more useful things to do with my time — and I wasn’t very good at the business anyway.” A former Peace Corps volunteer, Warwick went on to establish the “full-service, integrated fundraising and advocacy agency,” Mal Warwick/Donordigital, an organization “dedicated to world peace, social justice, and environmental quality.” If she considered “Earthprobe” one of her lackluster efforts, the serial, “Stark’s Quest,” written and drawn by the cartoonist, in Star*Reach #11, 14, 16, and 18 [’77–79], was, according to Lee’s own assessment, among her finest. She told Arndt, “‘Stark’s Quest’ was one of my favorites, really… I actually think [the series] would make a good movie. There’s certainly enough action in the plot.” Lee was able to finish the serial — and draw a cover — in what was the last issue of Star*Reach. She told Arndt, “Mike Friedrich’s publishing venture folded right when he was planning to gather some of the work that had appeared in Star*Reach and put it out again in a more elaborate form, like some of the other science fiction comics magazines that were popping up. He hadn’t started his agency yet, so quite a few things sort of fell between the cracks. Some of the work I did that was to have appeared in Star*Reach ended up in Heavy Metal, and then later I sold some of my stuff to Epic Illustrated, to [editor] Archie Goodwin, who also liked my graphic style.” She added, “I actually re-did the first chapter of ‘Stark’s Quest’ in color, later on, but Mike didn’t find a place for it.”

All © Lee Marrs.

‘FIND A NICHE AND FILL IT’ Certainly, Lee was one of the very few cartoonists — maybe the only female — who could boast of having worked in the three sectors of 1970s’ comics in the U.S.: the mainstream, underground, and alternative realms. And, given the option, she would have happily spent all of her days producing comic book work (though most preferably in comix). All this despite the fact she had no illusions about women being treated fairly in any of the fields, no matter how progressive a segment professed itself to be. “I was a total feminist from the very beginning,” she explained. “Because I had seen how my mother couldn’t get jobs, how I couldn’t get jobs. Although the left was revolutionary in their thinking, in their operation (because I was in the midst of it, the left was just as sexist as the establishment), so all of this revolutionary thought didn’t translate into the personal, and the personal is the political. “So that dichotomy informed just about everything I did and said. I’ve always worked with one foot in self-expression and the other foot in the establishment, because the establishment always has money and I need to eat. If I’d been able to do underground comix and had any kind of income, I would have done that totally, and I don’t think I would have been happy being a mainstream artist working for the establishment. But having the blend seemed to work well for me.” Still, with the end of the decade upon them, “I think all of us knew things would never be the same.” As the 1980s dawned, ever-pragmatic Lee faced the reality of dwindling outlets for her cartooning with the undergrounds all but past their prime, DC in their post-“implosion” phase,* and Star*Reach ceasing as a publishing entity to transform itself into an agency representing comic book artists (including Lee). The editorial in the final Star*Reach, #18 [Oct. ’79], mentioned that Lee had found work in TV animation and commercial art illustration. Sharing insight regarding that period, Lee said earlier this year * As for DC’s competition, Lee would find only minimal work at Marvel during the ’70s, with a short-lived but steady gig producing the “Crazy Lady” feature in (you guessed it) Crazy magazine in the mid-’70s, during Steve Gerber’s tenure as editor. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

in a New York Comics & Picture-Story Symposium episode on YouTube titled “Lee Marrs: Career-Hopping for Survival,” she advised artists: “Find a niche and fill it. If there’s a corner of activity and you can work it, do it, particularly if it’s a profitable niche. Become the expert in that area and folks will flock to you.” With her own freelance outfit, Lee Marrs Artwork — “Serving the Cosmos Since 1972” — she had already created commercials, public service announcements, as well as educational films and movies. And then, “I made my one and only good professional guess about the future: that it was in computers. I had seen the NASA animations about going to the moon and suddenly thought, ‘That’s the future in animation.’” After auditing some computer graphics classes, Lee found work as animation development consultant at Aurora Systems, an early producer of digital animation hardware and software. Through the years, she would also become a storyboard artist for movies and video gaming, and also be an instructor and curriculum developer for local colleges and institutes. Still, postStar*Reach Publishing, Lee didn’t abandon comics completely, as her work appeared in Heavy Metal, Epic Illustrated, and, significantly, in an important comix anthology that was the first of its kind. As Lee had, way back in her Alternative Features Service days, syndicated his “Barefootz” comic strip — their most popular feature! — Howard Cruse returned the favor between 1980–83 and included her stories in all four issues of Gay Comix he edited. Series creator Cruse was intent on having both male and female homosexual perspectives, so he approached known purveyors of lesbian comix Mary Wings and Roberta Gregory. He said, “They were immediately enthusiastic. Then Lee Marrs volunteered. This was a little confusing to me because she’d been in a long-term relationship with Mike Friedrich. On the other hand, there had been lesbian moments in her Pudge, Girl Blimp series, she already had a fan following, and she really wanted to do it. Like Mary and Roberta, she’d be a great asset to the book, and it didn’t seem like my job to cross-examine valuable contributors.” Cruse continued, “Even though Lee was a friend and fellow Alabama native, it was a few years before I finally got up the nerve to say, ‘Lee, what exactly is your story?’ She said she would characterize herself as a ‘currently inactive bisexual.’ Anyway, her contributions were great and it’s hard to imagine having launched Gay Comix without her. The same was true with Roberta and Mary Wings. They were both pioneers. Having both of them and Lee in the first issue — and, for all we knew, that might be the only issue — made an instant statement about how important [publisher] Denis [Kitchen] and I thought it was for projects like this to be co-gender.”

Above: Lee Marrs very ’80s business card. Below: The cartoonist’s art for the cover of Wimmen’s Comix #9 [May ’84]. Bottom: Lee’s terrifically evocative splash panel for her Gay Comix #3 [Dec. ’82] five-page story.

EVER SINCE “In the year 2000, I was really tired,” Lee shared in that YouTube presentation. “Constantly changing software had defeated me. The mainstream comics world had editors who had not been born when I had started out, so I turned to full-time teaching.” In 2005, she earned a master’s degree in multimedia, at California State University. She then became the Animation Program chair at the Center for Electronic Art, taught for the San Francisco State University Multimedia Studies program, as well as at University of California extension, Cal State East Bay, and Laney College, and she has lectured at UC Berkeley, as well as served as Multimedia co-chair at Berkeley City College. Her favorite aspect to such a long, varied career? “I think it’s being a cartoonist in the sense of writing and drawing. I’ve really gotten more personally from that than any of the other things. It’s interesting, now that I’m retired, I haven’t continued with animation, I haven’t continued with teaching. What I’ve continued with is comics.” Over the last few years, she’s been quite busy in just that, with powerful, accomplished work appearing in Drawing Power: Women’s Stories of Sexual Violence, Harassment and Survival [2019], edited by Diane Noomin; Covid Chronicles: A Comics Anthology [2021], edited by Kendra Boileau and Rich Johnson; and Won’t Back Down: An Anthology of Pro-Choice Comics [2024], edited by pal and fellow Wimmen’s Comix “founding mommy,” the late, great Trina Robbins. When all is said and done, call her what you will — superlative underground/mainstream/alternative comic book creator; recipient of Inkpot and Emmy awards; cartooning icon, rebel, and trailblazer; tireless champion for women’s rights and gay liberation; masterful humorist and keen caricaturist; writer, artist, animator, innovator, teacher, advocate; or simply refer to her as just plain Annette, Sandy, or Lee — the woman is unquestionably among the greatest of storytellers in the world of comics, and her name deserves placement alongside that of her peers in the Eisner Hall of Fame. Because, by any name, the world needs Lee Marrs. #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Plastic Man, Viking Prince TM & © DC Comics. The Black Stallion TM & © United Artists, Inc. Unicorn Isle TM & © Lee Marrs.

Top: Alas, Lee Marrs’ Plastic Man comic strip in 1979 was not to be. (See Back Issue #59 for details.) Above: Cover for the trade edition of Viking Glory [’91], written by Lee. Art by Bo Hampton. Inset right: Maybe the most widely seen Marrs art is her illustration for The Black Stallion movie poster [’79]. Below: Intended to be a 12-issue series, Lee’s kid-friendly Unicorn Isle [’86–87] lasted a mere six issues, to the creator’s regret.

LEE MARRS: SCRIBE In comics, Lee has served as writer/artist, artist-only, and writer-only — “It’s been a hopscotch throughout my comics career” — and, regarding the latter role, she got the opportunity to scribe a favorite character since childhood. “[DC editor] Mike Gold called me up and said, ‘There are these four or five comic book characters that we need to publish something with, because the copyright needs to be renewed.’ The Viking Prince was one of them, so I leapt at that.” She said it was “fulfilling a childhood fantasy” to write the graphic novel, Viking Glory [’91], which was originally to be drawn by Charles Vess, but Bo Hampton ultimately illustrated the effort. Of the original Brave and the Bold adventures drawn by Joe Kubert, she told Kim Howard Johnson in Comics Scene, “I really enjoyed those ‘Viking Prince’ stories a lot. In Alabama, it was one of the few opportunities to see an almost-naked good-looking guy leaping around.” (Back in the early ’70s, she was a bit more forthcoming with Mark James Estren: “Joe’s Viking Prince! Yum yum! Loved that Jon! Had my first remembered sex fantasies off his adventuresome bearskin-bikinied self.”) Her favorite aspect of the book (which was originally published as a hardback) was to have Will Eisner write the foreword. When an animation company approached the legendary cartoonist about making an animated movie of The Spirit, Eisner sought Lee’s advice and they struck up a friendship. “He was always so ancient and so sharp! He was always curious. He always wanted to know what new thing you were doing, if you were doing something he knew nothing about, and he wanted explanations as to how this happened. He was a wonder.” One of Lee’s earlier efforts as “writeronly” was for Wendy and Richard Pini’s publishing company. “At one point, WaRP Graphics wanted to expand and I had an idea for a kid’s series called Unicorn Isle [’86–87], and they were enthusiastic,” Lee said. “So I found a new artist — at the time, I was working as an art director in the game industry, so I knew I couldn’t draw it myself — and we launched the series. But we began to have all kinds of problems… I was going to write it and do the covers, so I did the first cover and sent it down there. Then, when the first issue came out, the colors were garish, much brighter and lighter, and I could tell that this wasn’t a matter of the printing.” To Lee’s frustration, the colors had been altered by the publisher without informing her

of any change. “Things got worse from there.” Ultimately, despite a positive reception for the kid-friendly series from parents, only six of the projected 12 issues were published, an abrupt end, mid-story. “It was really one of those disasters… I’ve never had the time or, actually, the inclination, to continue it, because the whole experience was such a downer.” Lee explained, “When my animation career was happening, I mostly wrote comics because that was faster. So different editors — mostly all DC editors — would call me up to do short assignments. Zatanna was one of them and Indiana Jones was another. But Faultlines [six issues, ’97] was another thing. I really admired Vertigo — and Karen Berger, as well, and what she had done within the mainstream — and I thought that my kinds of stories would be perfect for Vertigo. So I came up with Faultlines and Karen was very excited by it. But, completing the first issue — this was before it was even published — Karen handed the project over to another editor, and we were entirely different kinds of people. She was a fluffy bunny, pink kind of person, and I’m more of a dark, gutter kind of person, particularly in the sense of this series. She kept wanting me to do more and more elaborate things, whereas I thought mystery was how we should go.” She added, finishing with a chuckle, “So, at the end of this process, after Faultlines came out, I ran intro Karen Berger at a convention, so we talked about it, and she said, ‘It’s too bad how things went with Faultlines. I thought it should have been a much more mysterious, simpler thing.’”

once upon a long ago

Wallace Wood and Me

The wondrous, wild, wacky, weird, wowza, world-shaking work of ‘Woody’ Wood (and Bhob)

MAD TM & © E.C. Publications, Inc. Photos © the respective copyright holders.

by STEVEN THOMPSON Like so many comics fans, when I first started collecting, back in 1966, I was drawn initially to the artwork. I found myself obsessing on Jack Kirby’s art. Ditko, Steranko, Colan, Marie Severin, Everett, Anderson, Swan, Kane, and Adams were also early favorites. But it was Wally Wood — Wallace Wood — whose work really thrilled me. I tried to teach myself to draw by copying Woody’s style. I tried to copy his shadows and his lighting effects in particular. I really wasn’t any good at it. I followed his work wherever I found it after that, though, bouncing back and forth between Marvel, DC, and the black-&-white pages of Creepy, Eerie, and Vampirella. When he started his official fan club in the mid-’70s and began self-publishing, I joined up and even had him sign most of the books I ordered directly from him. I discovered Cannon and Sally Forth, probably my favorites of all his work. And King of the World — The World of the Wizard King. By that point, he was also doing more adult work, such as his “Malice in Wonderland,” in National Screw, and the Wally Wood’s Weird Sex Fantasy portfolio. When I saw an ad in TBG for a flat-out porn mag with all Wallace Wood comics, I just had to mail-order it, but I was horribly disappointed. It was immediately clear that he was no longer what he had been. The second volume was even worse. Despite his name on the cover again, to this day I refuse to believe that Wood had much to do with that second book at all. A posthumous third volume is all reprints from healthier days. While I had no doubt that Woodwork had declined by that point, I was not prepared for the news of his passing via suicide. When I saw the TBG cover that day, I was excited at first, thinking the issue would have a new interview or new art or something. My mother had just died and I was in need of some good news to cheer me up. The news I got was definitely not good. I continued to be a big fan, of course, and strived to collect as much of his work as possible, reprints or originals. Many years later, one of my first blogs was the first ever blog devoted COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

entirely to Wood and his work. “Hooray for Wally Wood” remains up, although inactive in recent years. As the 21st century hit, more and more books began coming out on Wallace Wood. I couldn’t keep up. I did pick up TwoMorrows’ Against the Grain, an anthology of Wood-related pieces by various authors, edited by former Wood assistant and friend Bhob Stewart. Imagine my surprise some years later when I get a call out of the blue from Bhob, a legend in comics and science fiction fan circles, telling me he was working on a second edition of Against the Grain, and he was actively soliciting new articles from different perspectives… and he wanted me to contribute! I was offered the choice of writing about Wood’s socially conscious Shock SuspenStories contributions or his MAD and Panic work. I chose the former, but when I had trouble with my analyses, Bhob let me switch to the funny stuff instead. We spoke on the phone a number of times. He was so excited about the new edition and asked me to help him come up with a new name for it. We kicked around a few that I’ve sadly long since forgotten. The last time I heard from him was an acknowledgment that he received my requested “About the Author” paragraph. Then came word that Bhob had died! It seems he had been ill for some time and may well have even been calling me, unbeknownst to me, from hospital stays. Bhob’s book was in limbo. Eventually, its publisher, Fantagraphics, announced that it would be released. In fact, it would now be two separate volumes, The Life and Legend of Wallace Wood. While the resulting books weren’t exactly what Bhob Stewart had told me he wanted, Mike Catron made sure both volumes were beautifully packaged with incredible art choices. I remain honored to have a byline in the first volume alongside so many friends, colleagues, and recognized experts on Wallace Wood and his work. To this day, Woody’s artwork still inspires. I’ve never forgotten those deathless words: “When better drawrings are drawrn, they’ll be drawrn by Wood! He’s real gone!” Gone… but never forgotten.

This page: The covers of Fantagraphics’ two-volume Life and Legend of Wallace Wood set from 2016 and ’18, edited by the late, great Bhob Stewart (seen below). The pair was an explanded reworking of the TwoMorrows-published Against the Grain: MAD Artist Wallace Wood [’03]. At center is a detail from “Superduperman,” MAD #4 [May 1953], art by Wood (seen above). Robert Marion Stewart was a super-fan with innumerable accomplishments to his credit. (Ye Ed. to Bhob: “Miss ya, pal.”)

a better world

Making a Dent Comics

The amazing Applied Cartooning program at the Center of Cartoon Studies turns 10 years old by JON B. COOKE

This page: Clockwise from above, Greg Irons’ cover for Corporate Crime Comics #1 [July ’77], depicting nuclear power whistle-blower Karen Silkwood; the logo for the Applied Cartooning Lab; four of the (thus far) five titles produced by Center for Cartoon Studies students, faculty, and outside institutional partners (for free PDF downloads, visit www.cartoonstudies.org/css-studio/cartooningprojects); and the CSS mascot.

* Why We Punish is projected to be published sometime in 2026. To buy hard copies of current CCS offerings, visit norwichbookstore.com.

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Corporate Crime Comics TM & © Leonard Rifas. All else © The Center for Cartoon Studies.

Coming of age in the 1970s, I reckon that, in my heart of hearts, I most of all wanted to be a cartoonist. And, deep down, I still do, but I took a different path. I recognized my storytelling strengths are in print and design, so I’m okay with the journey I took, but, man, don’t I wish there was a Center for Cartoon Studies when I was getting out of high school! One reason I wanted to get into cartooning, besides an abiding, unabashed love for the work of Kirby, Kurtzman, and Crumb, happened when I was a high school senior upon encountering Corporate Crime Comics #1 [July ’77]. Published by Kitchen Sink, that Leonard Rifas-edited two-issue series was fearless in depicting true-life accounts that exposed crimes committed by big business and my mind exploded at such a daring use of the art form I loved. These tales were downright radical and exactly the type of comic book stories I dreamed of one day producing! While decidedly less incendiary in ideological content than Corporate Crime, the comic books produced through the CCS “Applied Cartooning” program are gratifying in the extreme as they, too, strive to be true-to-life and make an impact in people’s lives (and have their own subversive streak, as well!). The first title I encountered — a giveaway at That’s Entertainment comic shop, in Worcester, Massachusetts — was Health and Wealth: A Graphic Guide to the U.S. Healthcare System [2021], stylistically a pastiche of a Richard Scarry children’s book and, content-wise, a no-holds-barred look at… well, what the title says. Clever, smart, funny, accessible, and an entertaining example of how to convey sometimes complicated information.

James Sturm, CCS co-founder and kick-ass cartoonist storyteller in his own right, kindly sent me a run of their comics to date, five in total, each respectively dedicated to relevant subjects — governance, mental health, literacy, healthcare — with one specifically focusing on civics and democracy in the institution’s home state. Located in the Vermont village of White River Junction, CCS was established 20 years ago and their Applied Cartooning manifesto, The World is Made of Cheese, was published in 2014. Established just last year, the Applied Cartooning Lab formalizes the program and its multiple projects, Sturm told Dan Bolles. “It’s a place for us to put it all under one banner.” The entity, Bolles shared, is where, “students and faculty work with outside organizations on mission-driven, community-based nonfiction comics…”1 Bolles continued, “The lab has tackled some weighty subject matter, from mental health to climate change. Its next book,* a collaboration with [the] Prison Studies Project, is on mass incarceration. If that doesn’t quite sound like a lighthearted jaunt through the Sunday funnies, it’s not. But to Sturm, that’s precisely why nonfiction comics are effective vehicles for breaking down fraught topics. “‘That’s just comic book stuff, right? Something you laugh at,’ he said, summing up a would-be reader’s mindset. ‘I think that’s the strength of it — that people don’t take it seriously. You might pick it up, get inside it, and the next thing you know, you’re absorbing information, learning stuff.’”

Applied Cartooning illustration by Eleanor Davis. All © the Center for Cartoon Studies.

In his recent conversation with me, Sturm, the Lab’s director, says the Applied Cartooning initiative reaches back to the school’s beginnings, in 2004, “When we were offering community-based internship opportunities. Throughout the history of the school, we were doing projects with veterans, the local health care center co-op, and various things the students would get involved in. The Applied Cartooning Lab was a just kind of way to highlight the kind of work we’ve been doing all along, but also focus on that work to deepen it and broaden it.” Is there a vocational aspect for students? “I think so,” Sturm said, “because when you’re working on your own work, you just have an ear toward the whisperings of the muse, and when you’re doing this kind of work, you really have to connect with other people and it’s almost like you’re being of service to helping the voice of another organization or you’re reporting on things, so I think it’s an important vocational skill, absolutely.” Health and Wealth is such an unflinching look at the inequities on today’s health care system, I questioned Sturm whether he felt it courageous to take on such a huge sector of today’s economy in such a subversive manner. “I don’t know if it was particularly courageous to do it,“ he replied, “but I do feel like there is an element of subversion, for sure. We use the style of Richard Scarry and of School House Rock — warm, friendly, and inviting — pulling people in and talking about the horrors of the U.S. health care system. And I don’t think you can talk about the history of comics without talking about the history of subversion, right? You can imagine six pages of a version of Health and Wealth being in the MAD magazine of years ago! These are definitely comics as a way to educate and engage people, and it’s coming at them a little bit sideways, as opposed to ramming it down someone’s throat.” In an email exchange, CCS adjunct faculty member Dan Nott described applied cartooning by its formal definition as “using comics to foster civic engagement and social change,” and he added, “I think the collaborative aspect of these projects is key as well. Applied Cartooning projects often team up cartoonists with organizations and individuals who have a mission and message that can benefit from this type of visual storytelling. As for his specific role, Dan added, “I teach a comics studies class that focuses on history, theory, and community. My own work, like my debut graphic novel, Hidden Systems, also involves using comics to untangle complex subjects. For my role in the lab, I was the lead writer and artist on the first graphic guide, This is What Democracy Looks Like, as well as the Vermont civics-focused comic, Freedom and Unity. “The Applied Cartooning projects are different from my other work because of the aforementioned collaboration involved. For example, with Freedom and Unity, part of my job was to synthesize the expertise and missions of a number of collaborators, including the Vermont Secretary of State’s Office, Vermont Humanities, and Susan Clarke, author of Slow Democracy, and an advocate for Vermont’s direct democracy tradition of town meeting.” Nott, who had attended CCS as a student from 2016–18, assessed the publications. “The graphic guides are great because they provide an inexpensive and accessible way to convey information and start conversations. In terms of the civics-focused comics that I’ve worked on, I think we’re constantly inundated with news and COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

updates about politics, and it can be hard to find clear resources that actually lay out how our government is set up. And I’ve heard from readers that having this schematic-like approach is really helpful for gaining a baseline level of understanding. Both This is What Democracy Looks Like and Freedom and Unity have been distributed for free in classrooms and libraries, and have been reprinted multiple times, in print runs that exceed what’s possible for most graphic novels.” Cartoonist/teacher Marek Bennett talked about producing The World is Made of Cheese, the 20-page CCS Applied Cartooning manifesto that started the ball rolling a decade back. “James Sturm and I had been in contact for years. I think he saw the self-syndicated weeklies I was doing in area papers, and then he asked me to demo my ‘comics workshop’ teaching methods in a summertime program for teachers. I’d been drawing connections between comics and education for years, but, in 2011–13, while working on my Slovakia book, all the pieces started to come together for me: making comics, teaching comics, using comics as a research method, and a way of sharing results, as well as crowd-sourcing and sustaining work on a long-term project, etc. “Right after that book came out, James and I realized we were both working on similar ideas about how the medium of comics fit into the larger career ecosystems of artists. James had a lot of ideas, and a clear narrative he wanted to put out there — a manifesto, as in, “I manifest this idea! — I make it a reality!” — and I draw things like that pretty fast, so we banged out some pages in that summer of 2014. It was meant to serve as a conversation-starter, maybe an initial offering of ideas to gnaw on as we all found our way through this newly named and defined (but, by no means, new) territory.” Cartooning is such a solitary endeavor, said I, so how do students respond to the act of collaboration? “I think it’s a tough sell on students,” Sturm said. “It would’ve been tough for me at that age, because I just wanted to work on my own stuff. This work is cartooning by committee, gaining trust in people, and working with collaborators, and nobody can get too precious about their grand vision of anything, because there are a lot of stakeholders… there’s people with experience, there’s scholars, journalists, people doing frontline work in the community, so it’s a totally different process. It’s hard for students sometimes to work on this stuff and a lot of them aren’t at that place… But some students are interested, and are dedicated to nonfiction comics.” Ultimately, Sturm said, “I don’t see the graphic guide projects we’re doing now just being the creation of a comic book. I see it being a catalyst for a public education campaign. If we just printed the comic and it sat in our storage area, that wouldn’t do anybody any good.” 1

Dan Bolles, “From the Center for Cartoon Studies to ‘Watership Down,’ James Sturm Can’t Stop Creating Worlds,” Seven Days Vermont website [Nov. 29, 2023], https://www.sevendaysvt.com/ arts-culture/from-the-center-for-cartoon-studiesto-watership-down-james-sturm-cant-stop-creating-worlds-39617849. 15

the drake dossier

Stanley and His Maker

Continuing the celebration of writer Arnold Drake's centennial in part two of his interview Who is Arnold Drake?

For those coming in late, a little background info: the Manhattan native is the recipient of the very first Bill Finger Award, in 2005, and is renowned as the creator of The Doom Patrol, Deadman, and The Guardians of the Galaxy, as well as co-author of the graphic novel widely considered the first of its kind, It Rhymes with Lust [1950]. In his long career, the scribe worked for almost every major comic book publisher in innumerable genres. — JBC. This page: This pic was found in the 1974 Famous Monsters Convention book. The caption reads, “‘I surrender!’ cries writer Arnold Drake as Jim Warren (left) talks him into buying a ten-year subscription to Famous Monsters of Filmland.”

Conducted by JON B. COOKE

derful conversation with Alan Moore, the British comics writer, who thought that book seemingly connected a breakdown [Editor's Note: Last ish, Arnold regaled us with his earliest that Mort had in which what came out of it was this whole new years, time in the armed services during World War II, and post- universe for Superman. It was death-obsessed, but it was a real war work with Leslie Waller, fellow writer, with whom he created tapestry that was created from perhaps a sense of madness. Or It Rhymes with Lust, possibly the world’s first graphic novel, was it really the writers who created this intense… Supergirl, the featuring the art of Matt Baker. We pick up the conversation horse, and Kandor, all these… I guess if you sit down and you about his early years at DC Comics. Note that fellow Drakeophile really analyze it, it’s really curious stuff. Marc Svensson provides footnotes and Arnold annotated the Arnold: Yeah. It was a combination of Weisinger running interview with comments before his passing in 2007. — Y.E.] out of ideas… Weisinger used to say that we got a new audience roughly every three years, that we had to find new ways to Comic Book Creator: Do you think that there was a tell old stories to that new audience. That was the challenge. streak of self-loathing at DC Comics? CBC: So you didn’t particularly see a change that took place Arnold Drake: Oh, yeah. Throughout the industry. between, in the late ’50s and the early ’60s, with the Weisinger CBC: Was it mired with guilt? Was that because of the talent books, at all? exploitation? Obviously, the Siegel and Shuster court cases… Arnold: No, I had very little to do with that. Arnold: That contributed much to it. But more the remainCBC: So you were working with Schiff… ing image of publishing unsuitable material. They were bothArnold: And then [Murray] Boltinoff. ered by that, that hangover from the jailtime [Harry] Donenfeld CBC: Oh, so Boltinoff had the humor titles, right? had faced in the ’30s about selling sexy magazines. Arnold: Yeah. CBC: What, the Spicy pulps and that stuff? CBC: What was next? Arnold: Yeah, and there was a cloud of guilt from that. In Arnold: Well, I was doing a lot of House of Mystery and an interview like this a long, long time ago, I said that they had House of Secrets and “Mark Merlin” and that stuff, the “Space come to look at themselves as running a whorehouse, where Ranger” [in Mystery in Space]. He was a character that none they were the madams, and the writers and the artists were of us liked, so Space Ranger we looked upon as punishment. the girls. To a very great degree, that was true for many years. Whenever I was assigned it, you would find me in the writers’ I think in the last 10 years, bullpen typing away and singing, [sings] “Space Ranger, I hate however, they no longer felt you/Space Ranger, you’re mine…“ [laughter] I hated his little that way about it. But we’re Martian pet. I thought it was condescending to the readers. That talking the ’70s, that’s when was Schiff. He had a similar cuteness about him, which I think a they began to realize that the lot of kids liked. I didn’t care for it, but I think he probably had a post office regulations used pretty fair-sized audience for that stuff. against Harry were a betrayal CBC: Did you have any interest in working with Julie of the U.S. Constitution. Schwartz? CBC: Did you know Alvin Arnold: Yeah, but Julie seemed to have enough writers. I Schwartz? also attempted to work with Larry Nadel. Arnold: Yeah, sure. CBC: The romance books? CBC: He wrote a book that Arnold: The comedy. Bob Hope, Jerry Lewis, Dobie Gillis. discussed Mort Weisinger’s What the heck else was there…? Fox and Crow, I guess. But he worldview? said no, no, no, he didn’t need any writers. And it turned out he Arnold: I don’t recall really didn’t, because he was writing it himself or making the that. I have one of his books artists write the stories without paying them for it. that gets into the Superman CBC: I spoke to Johnny Romita, Sr., and he told me a story of character…* incidents that still anger him today about kickbacks with Larry. CBC: Right! Arnold: Yeah. Arnold: Yeah, I have read CBC: Was common just with him, or was it taking place within that. I don’t know whether I the office in general? recall Mort Weisinger’s point Arnold: He was the first one I knew of. And the irony is that of view or not. Alvin hated he was replaced by a guy who I think did pretty much the same Weisinger, but he was in a thing, eventually, and who was let go. very large club. CBC: Did Larry suddenly die? CBC: I just had long, wonArnold: Yup, a heart attack. If I recall correctly, he bent over to tie his shoelaces and bingo… * Arnold is referring to Alvin Schwartz’s “metaphysical memoir,” CBC: He didn’t get up. Arnold: Worse than that: he didn’t get the shoe tied! An Unlikely Prophet [1997]. #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Stanley and His Monster TM & © DC Comics. Professor Challenger TM & © the respective copyright holder.

[laughter] Larry’s problem was that he was in debt to the bookies. I mean hundreds of dollars a week on a very small salary. I knew this, because he used the phone in my office to make his bets. He didn’t want to be heard by the staff. We had a pay telephone in the writers bullpen. A real class act! [laughs] Then, one day, he said (apropos of what, I don’t know): “When I die, the sh*t’s gonna hit the fan.” And when he died, it did. The figure I heard was something like $75,000 or $80,000. CBC: He owed? Arnold: He stole. He would take a script that had been written two years before, and he’d put a new cover sheet on it and bill it again, things like that. CBC: Was it a snake pit? Jack Schiff notwithstanding? Arnold: Not particularly. As comic book houses went, I think it was pretty clean. CBC: Did you stay exclusively with DC, or did you moonlight at all? Arnold: Yeah, I did some work with Marvel. CBC: During the ’50s? Arnold: No, this was later. CBC: Right, with The X-Men. Arnold: Later in the ’60s, yeah. CBC: Did you write any romance material? Arnold: No, I did not write any romance material. Nobody asked me to. CBC: What editors were you working with in the late ’50s at DC? Arnold: It started with Weisinger. I had enough of him within the first three or four months, I guess, that I refused to work with him. He said, “If you don’t work with me, you don’t work.” So I didn’t work there for, I think, close to a year. CBC: What did you do in the meantime? Arnold: Oh, I wrote some of my own stuff. I had written a book and I was working on a screenplay. I was keeping kind of busy. And doing a lot of PR. I was writing stuff for AT&T and IBM, folks like that. I had a pretty good public relations agent, a guy who sold my writing to major corporations. And that paid a lot better than comics, but it wasn’t where my heart was. I wanted to tell stories. I became friendly with Jack Schiff during the time that I was working with Mort, and Schiff and I decided to see if we couldn’t have a crack at this new thing called “television.” So we began working on a play. As I recall, it was called The Mayor of Murray Street. And it was an interesting theme, it was about a guy who has become a successful lawyer and is now running for mayor, and is embarrassed by the fact that his father still runs a newsstand to put this guy through college. And he wants his father to close up the newsstand, because it just doesn’t look good that the mayor’s father is still running a newsstand, it’s like “I’m not supporting my old man,” or something. And the father explains that this is his life, and he wants to go on living his life as long as he can. It was an interesting theme. We never sold it, because we didn’t have a strong enough agent. That was true all of my life — not having a really strong agent. So we worked together on that — at night and after hours, of course. One night, Irwin Donenfeld came in and started chatting with us, and he says, “I don’t see you around here much anymore.” I said, “I don’t work here.” And he said, “Why not?” And I told him about my problem with Mort. And he said, “Well, if you didn’t have to work with him, would you work here?” I said, “In a shot! If you will order him to let me work with Schiff, COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

I would be happy to.” So that’s how I came back to DC, and I worked with Schiff for quite a while. CBC: Now, what were you doing? Arnold: Batman, House of Mystery, House of Secrets, “Space Ranger”… CBC: So you did a number of short stories. How’d you get your ideas? Arnold: I don’t know. Everybody has a method. I didn’t really have a method. Bill Finger, for example… Bill used to open up the Redbook, the telephone directory, and just wander through it and get ideas that way. “Batman… a travel agency… yeah… “ It was just a way of getting his wheels moving. I did it from observation. I would frequently get ideas sitting on a bus and looking out the window at things going past. A lot of my ideas came from the news. I’ve always been very news-conscious. And I was into science fiction pretty early in life. Shaped to a great degree, a lot of my work was, by Verne and Wells, the Tarzan series, and Conan Doyle, especially the “Professor Challenger” stories. I read all of “Sherlock Holmes” when I was 13. My brother Milton gave me the complete works of “Sherlock Holmes,” and that was an influence on me. Early on, I recognized that Professor Challenger came

Above: The charm of Drake’s creation and of Oksner’s art as seen in the cover of Stanley and His Monster #109 [May ’68]. Below: Professor Challenger from Strand Magazine, Vol. 70 #1 [July 1925]. Art by F.E. Hiley.

*Again, this is “The Return of Mr. Future,” from Batman #98 [Mar. ’56]. 18

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Deadman, Super-Hip and associated characters TM & © DC Comics. The Flesh Eaters, Who Killed Teddy Bear? TM & © the respective copyright holders.

This page: Top is cover detail, Strange Adventures #205 [Oct. ’67], art by Carmine Infantino & George Roussos. Inset right, cover detail featuring Drake creation Super-Hip, The Adventures of Bob Hope #96 [Jan. ’66], art by Bob Oksner. Above, below: posters of movies for which Drake wrote screenplays.

before Holmes. Actually, he was Sherlock Holmes. I think that Conan Doyle decided, “I think maybe crime is more interesting to people than science fiction.” So he got into Sherlock and Challenger’s character. There are five or six [“Professor Challenger”] stories that are his earliest stuff. If you get a chance, read a little more of Challenger and you’ll find that he is almost Sherlock — two extraordinary minds that are extraordinarily aware of how extraordinary their minds are. They are both… smug. Smug is what they are. Holmes was smug, and so was Professor Challenger. They knew what they knew, and were very proud of it. At any rate, those were among my influences. So, on more than one occasion, I borrowed from them. I don’t recall deliberately doing it, but I’m sure I did. CBC: There were a number of stories, did you do a deliberate homage to Verne or to Wells? Arnold: Yes. CBC: Integrating them as characters within the stories themselves? Arnold: I did Verne in a Batman story. There was a problem in the present day world that Batman thinks only Verne can solve, because Verne had touched on the problem in some of his work. So Batman is able to go back in time to bring Verne forward, and Verne helps to solve that problem in the present day. And then, as kind of a departing gift, Batman takes him to see various things that he had predicted in his time, and then sent him back there with that enjoyment.* CBC: Was it fun? Arnold: The Verne story? CBC: Well, no, I mean writing. Was it a chore, was it fun, was it a mix? Arnold: It was a mix, yeah. I mean, some things you didn’t like. I didn’t like “Space Ranger” and the cutesy little animal, and things like that. All of us had things that we liked and things we didn’t. CBC: Did you want to do a character, something that you created yourself? Arnold: Yeah, I wanted to do that early on, but it wasn’t easy to do. The editors had to believe in you. If you worked with Weisinger, forget about it. Schiff might have gone along, perhaps, but they had to really believe in you, and I hadn’t been there that long that they were ready to turn over a magazine to me. CBC: Any concepts that you might recall that were not realized? Arnold: Well, there were things that I attempted to do that were rejected. A lot of these things were stuff that they thought they would

create trouble with the [Comics] Code. But also, things that were against the social-political scene at the time. I tried several times to get a Black into a story and was not successful. And that wasn’t the only place, I tried three different shops, including Marvel and Western, to try to do a little integration. And didn’t succeed at that. Before The Doom Patrol, did I ever submit an original concept… ? I don’t think so. I think it was pretty clear that they were not interested in original concepts. If there were going to be original concepts, they were going to come out of the editors. In particular, Weisinger. CBC: What was your view of the Code? Was it frustrating restrictions? Arnold: Well, yeah. I thought it was dumb. I was convinced that comics were not responsible for shaping the lives of young people and that the idea of attacking comics was, to me, a way of getting parents off the hook. CBC: Were you vocal about it at all? Arnold: Oh, yeah. Sure. I urged them to keep pushing the envelope. On a couple of occasions, I can’t remember which ones, but on one or two occasions, they did, as a result of my urging. On one occasion they didn’t, and that was an unfortunate one. I was in London at the time, and I was working on the third “Deadman” story. And I sent the first chapter to [Jack] Miller, who had been a friend, or at least I thought he was, and had just become an editor. And it turned out that, I wasn’t aware of it, nobody was telling me this, but “Deadman” was taking off. “Deadman” was a hit, and they were getting very interested in that character as a result. And I wrote this thing, and it had two strikes against it. One was, the guy that Deadman is going to replace in that particular story is the governor of the state. The governor is dying of cancer. You could not discuss cancer in a comic book. I insisted that you can discuss cancer in a comic book. It reminded me of my mother telling to me that, in her time, you couldn’t mention the word “tuberculosis.” In our time,

The Doom Patrol TM & © DC Comics. Painting courtesy of Marc Svensson.

“cancer” was a no-no. It was sort of like the belief that, if you say it, you’ll get it. Anyway, I had the governor dying of cancer. And I established that the governor’s right-hand man, a guy he went to school with, a guy who was the number one student in the school, was Black. And, at one point, the governor said, “That’s the way the cards are dealt,” or something like that. Miller wrote back, “There’s no action in this! We’re gonna run an entirely new third story.” He didn’t mention anything about cancer or anything about the Black man, but I’m pretty damned sure that that was a major consideration in the decision not to run that story. Also, Miller badly needed extra cash. So he wrote it himself. CBC: Do you feel, if you had been in the States at the time, do you think you might have had a stronger influence? Arnold: Oh, it would have been entirely different, I think. Of course, I don’t know exactly how different it would have been, because what was happening… Take the context: [Carmine] Infantino was taking over right at that moment, and I think the editors were all a bit insecure — all busy trying to make a score under the new management. Miller was going through a midlife crisis, having an affair with a much younger woman, and spending an awful lot of money on her. That’s why he needed money, so what he wanted to do was to write as much of his own stuff as he could. And rejecting my third story was an open sesame. He apparently went to Carmine and said, “We can’t run that one. I’d like to do a new one.” And Carmine sat down and helped plot it, as I understand. Because obviously Carmine had been quite interested in “Deadman,” being the first artist. And in the concept. Carmine was closer to understanding what I was trying to do with comics than almost anyone else there. CBC: Jack had his history there. Was it ironic — am I wrong? — didn’t he die of cancer? Arnold: Yeah. CBC: And he succumbed very quickly, right? Arnold: Yeah. A matter of weeks. CBC: And I guess there was desperation there? I’ve heard a number of stories about art being missing and him desperate for cash. Arnold: Yeah. It’s ironic, because he replaced Nadel, who stole something like $70,000 from the company. So they replaced them and, as I recall the story-and I’m not sure who told me this (it may have been Carmine) about a guy who later became a renowned comic collector or dealer. He came to Jack Liebowitz’s office and put a bound volume of either Superman or Batman, I’m not sure which, the first issues in a leather-bound volume. “Mr. Liebowitz, I just bought this for $400.” (Or whatever.) Liebowitz says, “From whom?!” And he says, “From your editor, Jack Miller.” So, at that point, Liebowitz called in Infantino… yeah, Carmine must have told me this story. He called in Infantino and said, “I want him out of here today!” And Infantino said, “Yeah, I will fire him as an editor, but I’d like to keep him as a writer, we could use him.” So he said, “All right, but I just don’t want to see his face,” or something of that nature. It’s funny, for a small industry it had a lot of melodramas in it. CBC: [Laughs] It sure did! When did you first meet Bob Oksner? Arnold: When I started to do Dobie Gillis, I think. I worked with two artists, primarily, on the comedy material: Oksner and Mort Drucker. I think I started with Mort, and then Mort decided that his future lay with MAD magazine and he didn’t have much time for anything else. So he went over to MAD. And then I was really lucky. I lost one of the best, and I got one of the best in his place. And that’s how I met Oksner. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

CBC: How long did you work with Mort Drucker? Arnold: Three, four months, I would say. He was about ready to go when I joined the comedy line. CBC: Did you meet him? Arnold: Yeah. CBC: What kind of guy was he? Arnold: I don’t know. He had a great sense of humor. Which is to be expected. But so did Oksner, who had a marvelous sense of humor. Both of them, because they were very well-developed in the head as well as in the hand, they both gave you more than you had expected. When I would turn in a script to

Above: Note, in this Green Lantern #27 [Mar. ’64] house ad, The Doom Patrol #86 was initially intended to be numbered #1. It was revised in subsequent comics featuring the ad. Below: Painting by Luis Domiguez, the cover to Arnold’s incomplete last project for DC Comic: the origin story of the Doom Patrol’s nemesis team, the Brotherhood of Evil.

but I’m sure he had a desk at home that was piled high with joke collections. And, when it came time to make the $15 or $20 that you got for a text page in those days, he would just sit down in his little house on Long Island and start going through the joke books. And then pulling them out and rewriting them, trying to give them a Jerry Lewis or Bob Hope slant, or whatever. But that was it. Nothing was invented. It was a straight narrative with a joke in it. And that was because he — I think he just had a hard time writing new humor. Repeating old humor was easy. CBC: Did he make a lot of changes to your stuff? Arnold: Very few. He had an interesting complaint about my stuff. He said, “You’re very difficult to edit.” And I said, “Why?” He said, “Because your stuff is tight, is very tight, hard to cut.” CBC: Well, that’s a nice compliment, eh? But it was frustrating for him? Arnold: Yes, it was. See, he was under Mort’s thumb, by and large. And some of that was his own doing, he placed himself there. As bad as Weisinger was, other people were able to exist without being totally dominated by him. Murray couldn’t, apparently. So Weisinger had this theory: you must have no more than 40 words in a panel and no more than 20 in a balloon, or something like that, I can’t remember. And that was it for Murray. I think I helped to liberate him by writing balloons that had more than 20 words and writing fairly lengthy captions, and stuff like that. I was trying to write decent dialogue for a comic book story, which was almost unheard of at the time. You were supposed to simply tell your story. CBC: You know, there’s a dynamic that takes place, I think, in comics, and probably true of anything. There are two different kinds of editors, I like to say. One of them is the Weisinger-type, which is the stick, and perhaps the other one might be an Archie Goodwin-type, which is the carrot. Which is being able to elicit really good work because the creators wanted to please them, because they just wanted to make them smile, and they were easy-going, supportive, and they were different from the Jim Shooter-type, perhaps. Was that true with you at all, with the editors you worked with at DC? Arnold: Well, Murray and I certainly hit it off well, and when I was working with Schiff, it also went off very well. With [George] Kashdan, too. So the only one I had difficulties with was Mort and I solved that by not working for him. CBC: Did you have a dynamic in your personality of wanting to please people? In a way, you’re a performer behind a curtain, you know, in that you can let the work speak for itself, but there’s some times that, especially artists, they need some kind of gratification on a personal levelArnold: Yes. And that was aggravated by the fact that artists and writers received no published credits in the books. It was even tougher for artists working for Nadel. He said, “You want to work for me? Okay, you write and you draw the stories, but I only pay you for the art.” So they swallowed that. CBC: But they didn’t feel that upper management would have supported them? There was no going over his head, so to speak? Obviously that’s egregious, right? Arnold: Well, there was very little contact between upper management and freelancers. CBC: So there was a culture of silence, as well? Arnold: Yeah. I was kind of an exception. I was somewhat ballsy about approaching the front office and even giving them advice. I look back at it now and I say, “Where the f*ck did you get off telling Liebowitz that he ought to hire a vice president from Time/Life?” And I had several talks with Liebowitz and #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Brotherhood of Evil TM & © DC Comics. Commission courtesy of Marc Svensson. The Adventures of Jerry Lewis TM & © the estate of Jerry Lewis.

Above: Luis Dominguez followed Marc Svensson’s instructions to a “t” in his commission piece of the Brotherhood of Evil, circa 1964! Below: When Drake began writing Bob Hope and Jerry Lewis, new supporting characters and scenarios were introduced, including Renfrew and Camp Wack-A-Boy.

Mort or Oksner, I knew they were going to find things in there, funny things in there, that I had overlooked, or avoided for one reason or another. So, when it came back to me, I was able to see a whole new thing there, that they had added. And then very often I would add things on top of the things they had added. [laughs] So it was a funny ping-pong game with both of them. CBC: Oh, so you got a chance to look at the pages before they were lettered? Arnold: That was only true working with Boltinoff. Boltinoff would do almost anything I asked him to do. He was very cooperative. CBC: Was he happy where he was, that you could tell? Arnold: I don’t think so. He was frustrated. CBC: Was there something else he might have wanted to do? Arnold: Yeah, I think he wanted to write… I think he wanted to be Neil Simon. CBC: Did he give it a shot? Arnold: He started to. He had a collaborator that he was working with and they wrote a film. I think they may have sold it, I’m not sure. And then the collaborator said, “I’m going to the coast, that’s where all the action is. And that’s what I want to do, to write films. Come with me!” And Murray couldn’t do it. He had a wife and a kid. He just didn’t have that kind of guts. A big part of talent is guts. CBC: He seemed to have the weight of the world on him. Maybe something happened in the service or something. Arnold: I don’t know. If it happened, I think it probably happened even earlier. It probably went back to his childhood. An insecure mother or something… CBC: Occasionally he would get intimate with some of the creators, so to speak, and there could be a spark, but very often, the books were just okay. You know what I mean? Arnold: Well, for a guy who wanted to write comedy, he really didn’t have a very well-developed sense of humor. He wrote all those pages, “Notes from Jerry Lewis”… CBC: The text pages. Arnold: Yeah. And what he did was — I didn’t see this,

Challengers of the Unknown, Plastic Man TM & © DC Comics.

Irwin Donenfeld about the way the shop was run. But I didn’t know about Nadel until Nadel died. I found out at the same time everybody else did. Still, I did know that he was in enormous debt, that his appetite for horse-betting was killing him, literally. That I knew. CBC: Were you able to resist the temptations of the day? Drinking or… ? Arnold: I drank. I would occasionally get drunk, but I was not dependent upon it. I never solo drank. I didn’t see it as a solution to any problems. CBC: So it was pretty much a social thing? Arnold: Yeah, by and large. Also, I was constantly raising money for projects, film projects, that is, and one of the ways you do that is to take people out for a drink. So a fair amount of my time was taken up with drinking with prospective investors. CBC: Did you enjoy it? The promotional aspect, the future, hopeful for the success of projects and new things? Arnold: Yeah, I did. Except that I came to recognize that I really needed a guy who was a professional at that kind of thing. I was creative and had some understanding of how business is run, but I really needed a guy who specialized in that other thing, in promoting and running an organization and planning, and I just didn’t find one. I thought for a brief while that George Kashdan would turn into that kind of guy, but he did not, I think. He’s never forgiven me for not making him into a movie producer. CBC: Is he still with us? Arnold: I don’t know. What I understood was that he had had a stroke and that he was in some kind of home. That he could not speak, but that he probably understood what was going on around him. Whether he’s still alive or not now, I don’t know. I run into Lillian… whatever her name is, who was Liebowitz’s secretary, and she’s still among the living. And I run into Lillian every six months, perhaps, because she lives not far from me, and she gives me the lowdown on what’s going on. And that’s how I found out about George, how I found out his wife had died. A lovely, lovely woman. [George has since died in a California nursing home. — A.D.] CBC: Is Jack Schiff still with us? Arnold: No, I don’t believe so. And the sad thing was, his last years, he was attacked by Alzheimer’s Disease. I don’t think it was ordinary senility, I think it was more than that. And that a guy who was really a brilliant man should end up with such mental deterioration is dreadful. CBC: Were you privy at all to Jack Schiff’s problems with Jack Kirby over the Sky Masters strip? Arnold: Only a little. Jack [Schiff] didn’t really like to talk about it. I think he felt truly hurt, really abused. And I don’t think money was the central issue. I think he just felt that Kirby was not being square with him, and he resented it because he thought that he had done Kirby a major career favor. CBC: Yeah, it’s interesting, because I found all the court papers on it and everything like that and I did a lot of research on it, and just as a side note, it just seemed so atypical for Kirby, because they had a signed agreement, it was just plain and simple, it was right there. It just didn’t seem like Jack’s character. And I wonder if there was the desperation of the times, as well. Arnold: Perhaps, but I think it’s more like… I think there COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

was a kind of Chinese torture involved with Kirby’s life at that point. He kept turning out stuff and having the stuff exploited by others, make lots of money for others, and almost nothing for himself. And I think maybe when Jack [Schiff] put him on [Sky Masters], that was the moment in which he said, “This isn’t happening any longer. I’m gonna have control.” CBC: “Because I made the big time, because I got a syndicated strip now”? Arnold: Right, something like that. I think he just happened at turn on the wrong guy. CBC: Yeah, it just seems to be a really sad thing. Because they all seem to be… you can’t really find a bad guy. You can find a weak guy there, but it’s just one of those things where Jack Schiff certainly comes across… Overall, you look at Schiff’s body of work, and you look at the relationships he had with people, he comes across very well. He comes across as a very progressive, forward-thinking guy, as compared certainly to certain other personalities at the office. Arnold: “Decency” is the first word I associate with him. He happened to be a decent left-winger, but the decency was the important part, the significant part. Weisinger, the first word is “sh*t-heel.” It doesn’t matter what his politics were, I don’t think he really had any politics. He went with the wind. But… CBC: He received some success outside of comic books. Was there jealousy over that? That you could perceive that other people looked at him, here’s the wrong guy who’s doing the winning? Most everybody there, the artists were looking outside, right, and looking for success in other fields? Arnold: Yeah. I think that there was a certain resentment based on the fact that the guy was not a good writer, yet he had enormous drive and a business head about how you find a market and create a product for the market, so he was able to find Reader’s Digest and study Reader’s Digest, recognize what they were looking for and feed that. That’s not a terribly creative process, so a lot of creative people never go through that. But he did.

Above: Three longtime DC Comics editors. From left, Jack Schiff, Larry Nadel, and Mort Weisinger. Below: In the ‘60s, Drake pitched in and scripted Challengers of the Unknown and Plastic Man. COTU #55 [May ’67] cover art by Bob Brown and Plastic Man #1 [Dec. ’66] splash page, art by Gil Kane.

Above: Arnold Druckman’s draft card, which indicates the young man was working ast his father’s business when he registered. Below: That’s Arnold with pipe on the left, posing with two Army chums diuring their tour in the European Theater during WWII. He enlisted on September 11, 1942.

Above: Alas, thus far, we’ve yet to find an interview with Drake where he discussed creating The Guardians of the Galaxy, which became a $2.5 billion (to date) film franchise. Marvel Super-Heroes #18 [Jan. ’69] cover, with art by Gene Colan and Mike Esposito (a.k.a. Mickey Demeo). Story credits at top.

the Wood brothers? Arnold: Oh, sure. I worked side by side with Dave for a long time. CBC: Did you admire his talent? Arnold: I didn’t understand his talent. I only knew that Schiff respected it. Schiff knew that the guy was a semi-literate, we all knew that. But Schiff was obviously saying, “Yeah, he’s a talented semi-literate and I can use him.” So I suppose that that there was a kind of raw storyteller talent there, that I didn’t really appreciate because it was raw. But Schiff didn’t care too much about the rawness, because Schiff liked to rewrite your stuff anyway. So if you gave him a pretty good story and he thought it was a little bit rough at the edges, he just rewrote. CBC: Did he make it better? Arnold: [Pauses] In his light, yeah. I think, often, not, but I’d say probably more times than not, he made it better, yeah. CBC: But sometimes was it the presence of the thumb, so to speak, of having to put your thumbprint on it? Arnold: Well, he wanted to be a writer. He really didn’t want to be an editor, he wanted to be a writer. But he had a wife and kids and a home in the suburbs, etc., etc. CBC: Did you know Bill Finger?

* David Verne Reed (born David Levine) freelanced for DC comics in the 1950s and wrote several key Batman stories. He was a friend of Julie Schwartz and their circle of science fiction fans and writers. 22

Arnold: Sure. CBC: What was he like? Arnold: I really didn’t get to know Bill as well as I would like to have. Even before he died, I had the feeling that I would like to have gotten closer to him. And I suspect that the reason… He made overtures, he wanted to get together. But I suspect that the reason I didn’t get close to him was that Bill had enormous emotional problems, and I think that sowed insecurity in me. I would say to myself, “Sh*t, I’m not too far from there, myself! I’d better stay away from that.” I think that was what was going on when I sort of rejected his friendly overtures. CBC: Did he imbibe a bit too much, perhaps? Arnold: I don’t really think that was a big problem for him. I think he drank a little, but I don’t think it was a big problem. CBC: But there was pressure there that he struggled with? Arnold: Enormous. Enormous. CBC: And was he exploited for that? With Kane, for instance, being able to play off that? Arnold: I don’t if Kane was conscious of it or not, but keeping Bill broke was a way to keep Bill working for him. If Bill had been able to do a little better financially, he might have branched out in other directions and not been so devoted to being the Batman writer. CBC: Did Bill just spend it when he had it? Arnold: Yeah, but he never made enough. Part of it was that he was a perfectionist, so he took much longer to write a story than most of us did. He did more research than I think almost any comic book writer, with the possible exception of [Bob] Kanigher. I think Kanigher probably did a hell of a lot of research. But with that exception, I think Finger was the biggest researcher in the comics business, and it showed in his stories. But it would take him days to come up with that gimmick, because he had to research for it, not just invent it off the top of his head. Like most of the guys there, his science background was thin. We’re dealing mostly with guys who had not gone to college and probably didn’t take much science in high school. So a guy like Ed Herron wrote a story in which a man escaped in a balloon. How did he do that? Well, he blew it up. What did he blow it up with? Air! “Ed, that air that lifts a balloon has to be lighter than the air around it or it will not rise.” And Finger was pretty much that way, too. He made a huge discovery one day: there was something called “implosion.” “Did you ever hear of that?” “Yeees.” Because he thought that was a fundamental discovery. After all, everyone knows about ex-plosion, but im-plosion, wow! CBC: But did he have this insatiable curiosity? Was that a part of the whole research? Arnold: Yeah, I think he was pretty curious. I think he was also very insecure, and the research reduced his insecurity. CBC: Did you know him in the last years of his life? Arnold: I suppose I did, I think I went to his funeral, if I recall correctly. And I think he was buried in a G.I. plot. He was buried by the Veteran’s Administration, if I’m not mistaken.** CBC: How about France Herron, Ed Herron, did you know him? What was he like? Arnold: Yeah, I knew him very well. Nice guy, real nice guy. France was a confirmed alcoholic. Eddie, as we called him. And ** Arnold is mistaken. Much has been revealed about Bill Finger’s last days over the last decade. #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Marvel Super-Heroes, The Guardians of the Galaxy, Havok TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Right: Drake also created the X-Men character, Havok, seen here as redesigned by Neal Adams.

He said, “This is a business, like any business. I’m going to find out what the market is and I’m going to find out a way to feed it.” CBC: When I was nine years old, I couldn’t think of any publication I wanted more than 1001 Things You Can Get For Free. [laughter] He tapped right into that nine-year-old mindset. Arnold: Oh, yeah. CBC: I sent away for so many stupid tourism brochures. [laughs] And I was amazed to find out, later in life, that it was Mort Weisinger’s idea. And he also did, did he not, a trashy kind of novel? A Jacqueline Susann kind of thing… ? Arnold: Yeah, some of which was ghost-written. Not all of it, but some of it was written by a comedy writer named David Verne.* Name mean anything to you? CBC: Vaguely. Did you know

Gang Busters, Showcase, Fireman Farrell TM & © DC Comics.

Eddie had problems that I didn’t begin to understand. What it was that drove him to that bar every night, and what it was he was trying to forget about, I don’t know. He married a beautiful woman and had an adorable son, and then, I think, she just had it with his drinking. I don’t know, because I wasn’t there when they split. I became acquainted with him shortly thereafter. And I think she had probably had it with his boozing, and also probably, I’m guessing now, she felt that he, too, lacked self-belief. He had written one or two stories outside of comics, and they were pretty good short stories. One of the major magazines published them. I can’t remember which one it was. And I think maybe she felt that that’s what he should have been doing instead of devoting himself to comics, that he should be trying to expand his talent. And then, this lack of self-belief, which I think is one of the factors that drove him to the bar, split them up. Sad story. Nice guy, a real nice guy.* CBC: Did he work up until the last ’60s? Arnold: I think so. I did return a couple of times, briefly, but I left there in ‘67, I guess it was, so I’m not sure how much longer Ed was working there. I’m trying to remember, I think I buried Ed, also. So he may not have been working past ‘67, I’m not sure. [France Herron died Sept. 6, 1966. Arnold subsequently replaced Ed as writer on Challengers of the Unknown, with #55 [May ’67]. — Y.E.] CBC: That was a real transitional time. Obviously, Carmine came in as editorial director, and I don’t know how explicit the edict was, but certainly artists-as-editors, the era had begun. Was there a palpable sense of fear amongst the editors that were more related to the pulps, shall we say? The more literary, I guess…? Arnold: Yeah. A little more story-oriented than art-oriented. But often had carried a reverse effect: the guys who were so story-oriented knew that they knew very little about art, and they tended to depend more on the artist, get more support from the art, because they didn’t know a whole hell of a lot about it. And I thought that there was a tendency, even though they were “story” editors, by and large, there was a tendency to favor the artist over the writer. CBC: Because it was a graphic medium? Arnold: And because they didn’t have that. CBC: Is it something that you really can’t develop? You have the aesthetic, or you don’t? Arnold: It’s something you should get into when you’re pretty young. You should get to museums when you’re pretty young. CBC: You know, I guess I’m amazed when I talk to Julie. And he’ll be the first one to confess that he’s not an art guy, and yet he did surround himself with some major talent. You think of a Julie Schwartz book, you think of a nice, slick book. It’s slick, it looks good, it’s very handsome. It’s certainly not Marvel-esque in any way, it’s not grotesque, but it’s solid. And yet he’s said that he had no taste. How does that happen? Is it just magic? Arnold: I don’t know. He’d been at the business of evaluating stories for most of his life, starting in his teens, I think. He was an agent. CBC: A literary agent, right. Arnold: So he’d been in the business of evaluating stories for a long time, and I think that perhaps that skill that he had developed carried over into his choice of art. He was looking for artists who knew how to tell a story. That was his primary concern. He liked the idea that their art was also good, but I think * Arnold is softening his knowledge about Ed Herron’s personal demons for publication. Ed was much loved by Arnold and his colleagues, and Arnold is respecting his friend’s privacy. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

his primary concern was, “Can this guy really tell the story?” And he picked a lot of good guys. CBC: Did you work at all with Bob Kanigher? Arnold: Ummm… no. We didn’t have a good relationship. There were things about Bob that annoyed the sh*t out of me, and I didn’t try to hide it. On one occasion… Bob Haney was working for him, and probably was his major writer. Of course, Kanigher was Kanigher’s major writer, but Haney was his second major writer, and was quite dependent upon Kanigher for his income. And this story, I think, is illustrative of that relationship, and I suspect that, though I only know one such story, that it happened more than once. Haney lived about 80 or 90 miles from here, up at Woodstock, and would come into town to spend two to three days in the city, to get his assignments, do some revisions, then go back to Woodstock. Well, on this one occasion, Haney told me that he didn’t have an assignment. And I said, “How come?” And he said, “Well, Kanigher said that he saw this fantastic new line of skis and he had to have them, but they were expensive. So he needed to write a story for a check. That’s how come I’m going home without an assignment.” Well, I conveyed my feeling to Kanigher about his skis being more important than Bob Haney’s family and I don’t think he was crazy about me after that. CBC: You know, he comes across in interviews and my slight dealing with him as a prima donna, very self-important and pretentious. Arnold: Oh, yeah. He also was a fantasist. He was a big liar, but I think really “fantasist” was closer to the mark. CBC: An exaggerator? Arnold: Well, he’d tell tales that couldn’t possibly have happened. My favorite one, he tells of having gone into a bookshop during lunch hour, I think it was, and he saw this beautiful Asian girl. And their eyes met and they said nothing, and they left together and they went to her place and had sex. And they never spoke a word to each other. And he came back to work. I said, “Boy, that’s a hell of a lunch hour.” [laughter] I don’t think that ever happened, I’m pretty sure it never happened. And I think that was one of many such tales. CBC: He basically was able to survive for a period of time. Then Joe Kubert took over the war books. In your estimation, was that just following along the artist/writer shake-up or did Bob in fact just lose it? Arnold: I don’t know. I wasn’t close to the scene, so I really don’t know. I think it’s possible that Bob was “written out.” He turned out a lot of copy. I estimate that I wrote perhaps 1,500 or more stories. Well, if I wrote 1,500 or more stories, he wrote 2,000 or more, is my guess. And some of them were pretty intricate. As I said, he was maybe the biggest researcher in the trade. CBC: Did you admire his writing? Arnold: Did I admire his writing? Yeah. I resented the fact that I admired his writing. [Jon laughs] But I did. I thought he was very aware of the world around him. My big complaint about comics was that most of the editors weren’t aware of that immediate time. Mort Weisinger was writing for children of his own generation. He wasn’t updating. That explains Fireman Fred Farrell. When Mort was a kid, kids wanted to be firemen. They did not want to be firemen when Mort was a father. They wanted to be brain surgeons and go into space, that kind of stuff. “No, no, when I put fire on a cover, it sells! Every magazine! If I put jewels and cash on the cover, it sells!” Those became his timeless shibboleths CBC: The first issue of Showcase was “Fire Fighters.” But, by the fourth issue, something clicked. They put in The Flash and

Above: The only photo found of France Herron was on the cover of Gang Busters #10 [July ’49]. Below: Showcase #1 [Apr. ’56] cover by John Prentice. Late fan artist Xum Yukinori created this faux DC Who’s Who piece featuring Fireman Frank Farrell.

Above: Arnold hoped to delve into mysticism in the “Deadman” series, but somewhat different than Neal Adams’ published approach. Strange Adventures #216 [Feb. ’69] page by the artist. Below: Drake wrote two issues of “Deadman.” SA #206 [Nov. ’67], cover by Mike Sekowsky and George Roussos.

* I did ask Bob Oskner about this one year in San Diego, and he said he was just done. He was not angry at all, but tired. He also said he had given away most of his stuff, and Joe Stanton had gotten his drawing board.

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Deadman, Strange Adventures TM & © DC Comics.

revived the DC super-heroes. Did you have the desire to do super-heroes at all? Obviously, I know you did Batman. But with this new wave coming in, this resurrection of the old characters as this new cast… Arnold: Yes, I saw that super-heroes were “in.” But what I wanted to do was to go on doing what I’d been doing. I had some pretty intricate plans for “Deadman,” which I never got to execute, and I wanted to get into that. I wanted to get into the whole mystical aspect of Deadman, and I wanted to combine mysticism with Mary Worth, so to speak. Because Mary Worth was a device for moving other people’s stories. Well, that’s what Deadman was: a device for telling other people’s stories. CBC: I thought that was just a superb premise. It was just wide open, you could do anything with it. Arnold: Right. And Neal went, by and large, in the direction I would have gone, but I have a slightly different take on the mystical aspect of it. My take was, this place, this other world, was too much like our own. And Deadman finds himself being dispatched by a guy they call the Bean Counter. And the guy they call the Bean Counter is convinced that Deadman doesn’t deserve the honor that has been given him and that the Boss, whoever that may be, is too soft-hearted. And he, the Bean Counter, is a self-appointed guardian against Deadman. So

what we have, in my conception, is Deadman faces two enemies all the time. One is born of the body he is presently living in and the other one dispatched by the Bean Counter to try to get Deadman into as much trouble as possible. CBC: [Laughs] You were, in fact, aware of the world around you contemporaneously, right? Arnold: Yeah. CBC: You seemed to adapt quite well to modern times, I guess, not stuck in the past so muchArnold: I always had the feeling that it was catching up with me. CBC: The science fiction in you? Arnold: Well, I was an anti-fascist when I was 12 or 13 years old, which takes us to ’36, ’37… CBC: So you were a “premature anti-fascist”? [laughs] Arnold: Right! And people didn’t get too involved with that until ’39. I went to Washington, D.C., when I was 15 years old to join a picket line… Well, we didn’t go there for that reason. We went there for some other reason, I can’t recall what it was. But there were some Blacks with us and we couldn’t served in a coffee shop in D.C. So we formed an instant picket line outside that joint. Of course, most of the people who saw us were in support of segregation [laughs], so the line wasn’t too effective. But, at 15, I was involved in that kind of thing. I joined a protest outside Yankee Stadium, in ’38 (probably), I was maybe 14 years old, asking the Yankees to hire a Black ball player. The Black league played in the stadium on occasion, they were allowed to do that, but they weren’t allowed to play in the majors. So going back to around ’38, I think it was, I got involved with that. CBC: A good 10 or 11 years before Jackie Robinson, right? Arnold: Right, exactly. But, at that time, the big name was Satchel Page: how could the Yankees not sign Satchel Page? When they finally signed him… Cleveland, I guess, signed him, he was about 44 years old. And he went on to have a fairly good career for three or four more years in the majors. Just imagine what the guy could have done when he was 20 or so. CBC: Did you have a social relationship at all with Oksner? Arnold: Yeah, we spent some time together at his place up in the Woodstock area. And then a real accident made us kind of distant relatives. His wife’s brother married my first cousin. I don’t know exactly what that made us, but it was kind of amusing. We were unexpectedly at the wedding with the Oksners, which was kind of fun. CBC: What did you think of his depiction of girls? Arnold: I thought he was great, I thought he was just great. I told ya, his wife was his model. CBC: Really? Cuh-ute! [laughs] Arnold: Oh, yeah. And then, when she got older, his daughter became his model. CBC: There’s something very happy, there’s certainly a joyful aspect to his art. Just lovely stuff. Arnold: Oh, yeah. I’ll never understand precisely what was in his head the day he realized that he no longer needed another penny from comics and just picked up everything that he associated with comics and put it in the garbage. [Jon gasps] Everything! Pencils, pens, inks, his easel, everything went out. And I could never quite understand that. There had to be some degree of anger involved in that and I don’t know what that was. I must ask him sometime.*

Stanley and His Monster TM & © DC Comics.

CBC: It was quite a transitional time. I think, when he suddenly disappeared, the veterans were feeling pressure, perhaps, from the young kids coming in. Arnold: And I’ll bet you that… I’ll ask Bob about this someday, I haven’t talked to him in a long time. CBC: And you worked on Dobie Gillis together, you worked on The Adventures of Bob Hope, The Adventures of Jerry Lewis… Anything else? Arnold: I don’t think he did any of Stanley and His Monster… CBC: I think he did a little. Arnold: I think he did the first couple, and then they turned it over to a guy whose work I was never that fond of, Win Mortimer.* CBC: So was there any challenge to doing Jerry Lewis and Bob Hope? Was it a fun gig? Arnold: It was really my cup of tea. I was a lover of the Bob Hope/Bing Crosby Road pictures, and things like that. I loved combining mystery and comedy, spy stories and comedy, adventure of one sort or another and comedy. That turned me on. And I think it showed, I think I did some of my best work on that series. CBC: As far as you know, was there any approval that the respective performers gave to the work? Arnold: I don’t think so, but I really don’t know. The only point at which that might have come up, if it had been allowed to, was when Donenfeld decided that he was going to present Jerry Lewis with a batch of Jerry Lewis comics to bestow on some hospital, I think it was, that Jerry was going to visit. I think Jerry was beginning to get involved with muscular dystrophy, I’m not sure. So Donenfeld packed up a big bunch of the latest Jerry Lewis comic books and said he was going to meet Jerry. And I said, “Yup, I’d love to meet him myself. It would be such a kick to see the guy in person, this guy that I’d been writing about,” and so on. And he said, “No, no, no, we can’t do that.” So that was as close as I got to knowing what Jerry Lewis thought about the books. I have no idea what he thought about them, if he thought about them. And I have a hunch Bob Hope knew even less. CBC: Dobie Gillis, you never [laughs] had any… ? Arnold: No, but I enjoyed that. I liked the relationship between Dobie and his buddy. CBC: I’m not that familiar, certainly, with the early ’60s versions of Bob Hope and the Jerry Lewis stuff. Did you start when it was still Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis? Arnold: No. CBC: And there was a little boy character… what was his name? Arnold: Renfrew? CBC: Yeah! Wow, that’s coming back to me. [laughs] Did you introduce him? Arnold: Yeah. CBC: What was your thinking? Arnold: To get close to kids. Recognition that Jerry Lewis was not of that generation, that if they knew anything about him, he was that guy who appeared on TV once a year to ask for money for muscular dystrophy, and that’s what they knew. So how could they relate to that? So I said, “Okay, let’s give them somebody they can relate to.” And also, simultaneously, I said, “Let’s give them some magic.” I was aware that horror and magic were important elements at that time, so I came up with * Arnold stated on more than one occasion that Win Mortimer was a conservative, and Arnold was not. Their political beliefs were so different, they would never agree on anything.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

Renfrew and… “Witch Kraft,” was that her name? I think so. At the same time, I was giving Bob Hope a science-fiction anti-hero, Super-Hip. And all those monsters, Benedict Arnold High and the Faculty of Fear. But, in Jerry, I was going in the magic direction rather than science fiction. CBC: Why? Just for wacky… ? Arnold: I think largely because I didn’t want the two books to be alike. If I had a bunch of monsters in the Hope book, I didn’t want to put a bunch of monsters in the Jerry Lewis book. I haven’t read any of these in a long time. I’m going to sit down in the next few days and take a look at some of the stuff and see what the hell I was doing. [laughs] CBC: It’s utterly charming work, I think. It’s a real pleasure. I have to say, my real soft spot, and I just love it enormously, is Stanley and His Monster. There’s just something really sweet… Arnold: Me, too! I was just saying to my brother Irvin the other evening, “Every creator, no matter how much recognition he gets, always has something in his career that he feels was under-appreciated.” I said I think Irving Berlin, with his 1,000th hit songs, had one song that he felt never got its due. I’m sure his favorite was “God Bless America,” and his second favorite was “White Christmas.” But what was his third favorite? And I suspect that that might have been a song that you and I have never heard or have hardly ever heard. Well, that’s the way it was with Stanley. I had the feeling that he was totally unappreciated, and it made me very unhappy. I wanted Stanley to be appreciated. I came away with a rationale about the failure of Stanley, and that was that it didn’t belong in comic book shops; it should have been in bookstores. It should have been sold to the parents to give to their kids. I think that would have made a fair amount of sense. But that’s not the way National [DC] ever went. Now they are, to some degree, because they’re into graphic novels, they have graphic novels going into bookstores. CBC: Did you have kids? Arnold: Yes, I had a lovely daughter and she read everything of mine from the time she was about twoyears-old. CBC: When was she born? Arnold: She was born in… let me see… 1959, if I’m not mistaken. CBC: So she read your comics? Arnold: Oh, yeah. She started reading them when she was about two-years-old. The babysitter we used most commonly was the television set, and she learned to read from watching TV. It started with reading the names of the products. So we’d be walking along the street and she’d see a sign and she’d say, “Coca-Cola! Texaco! Dristan!” And so on. But then she began to

This page: Okay, okay, Ye Ed confesses to the obvious that he’s nuts about Arnold Drake’s Stanley and His Monster series, especially when drawn by the amazing Bob Oksner. Above is Oksner and inker Tex Blaisdell’s cover to the last issue, #112 [Nov. ’68]. Below is cover detail, The Fox and the Crow #103 [May ’67]. Art by unknown. (SAHM numbering picks up from TFATC after the latter was cancelled.)

put it together and started reading things that she didn’t see on television. So, by the time she was about three, she was a pretty good reader. And, by the time she was five or six, she was going through all my stuff. And it’s the reason that my collection, such as it is, is in terrible shape. Because she teethed on it, literally. [Jon laughs] CBC: Tell us the premise of Stanley and His Monster. Arnold: Stanley reflected the post-WWII suburban family life. But the area they moved into was about ten years old, so all the kids in the area are older than Stanley, and Stanley couldn’t make friends. That’s his problem. Number one, he hasn’t got a friend in the neighborhood. And, when he says, “If I can’t have a friend, can I have a dog?” His father says, “No, Stanley, you * In The Fox and the Crow #105 [Nov. ’67], there are twin-brother are not old enough for that responsibility.” “Responsibility” is neighbors, and one is trying to build a death ray without any success. a big word with his father. So The story is titled “The Man Who Un-Made Monsters.” In Stanley Stanley can’t have friends and and His Monster #109 [May ’68], Stanley goes to neighbor Professor he can’t have a dog. Then one Bernard Bohns to return some eggs his mother had borrowed. The day, when he wants to join the professor lives with an overbearing sister. When Stanley and his gang kids who are playing baseball, encounter him, he had been experimenting on himself with an invisibility ray. The ray had made Dr. Bohns look like a walking skeleton, they tell him to get lost. but Stanley recognizes him because his hair, glasses, and pipe also Suddenly somebody hits the remain visible. Arnold seems to have combined the plot from both of baseball a long distance and these stories. Professor Bohns never made it into Stanely’s room. He Stanley runs after it, thinking, did not appear again. However, there was a regular character that did “If I get the baseball, they’ll let disappear after this issue: it was the last appearance of Napoleon’s me play!” And the ball goes Ghost. The series was cancelled and issue #112 [Nov. ’68]. Material down a manhole. Now, Stanintended for the non-extant #113 was used in The Best of DC #29 ley goes after it and, in that [Oct. ’82], though that six-pager was written by Howie Post.

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Doom Patrol TM & ©DC Comics. Barnaby TM & © Wendy W. Rouillard.

Above: Marc Svensson (seen with AD on opposite page top) shared a treasure-trove of Drake material, including this priceless rough by the writer sketched for Doom Patrol #86 [Mar. ’64] cover artist Bob Brown. We’ll try to include Luis Dominguez’s painting recreation in our next installment, along with more rare artifacts from Svensson’s vault! Below: The writer confessed Stanley and His Monster drew inspiration from the comic strip, Barnaby, by Crockett Johnson.

sewer, he comes upon the monster. And the monster cunningly gets Stanley to tell him his problem, at which point the monster says, “Well, I am a dog.” And Stanley wants to believe that. He wants to believe that this 1,200-pound, red-haired monster with tusks is really a dog. He takes him home to tell his parents, “I know you said I couldn’t have one, but I found a dog, and can I keep it?” And they decide… Well, I don’t think they make any decision at all. I think they’re so busy with whatever they’re doing… she’s cooking, the old man’s on the phone or whatever… and they say, “Yeah, yeah, sure, anything.” And that’s how the monster winds up in his bedroom. CBC: Is the monster real? Arnold: Oh, yeah. Yeah. He’s not only real, but he’s probably responsible for most of the historic monster stories. He tells Stanley that he was swimming in a lake in Scotland, and then they started chasing after him, yelling, “Monster! Monster!” And that explains the Loch Ness Monster. And then he was having an adventure in Tibet, so he’s the Yeti, and so on. He takes responsibility for being all of the monsters of the world. CBC: Is he one-of-a-kind? Is he alone on this planet? Arnold: I never got into that, whether he had any relations or not. CBC: But there’s obviously a dynamic going on between the two, being loners. Obviously, he’s in the sewer. And there’s a bond that takes place, right? Arnold: Yeah. And then, what I did was, one by one, I filled Stanley’s room with other loners. The French ghost who claims to be the ghost of Napoleon, but nobody believes that. They’re not shocked that he’s a ghost, they’re just shocked that he claims to be the ghost of Napoleon. And, playing on the French stereotype, the ghost is very sexually oriented, he likes to go around pinching Stanley’s mother. [laughter] CBC: But in the illusion that is set it’s quite possible that it is an imaginary monster? Arnold: I never got to that. I never wanted to discuss the possibility that all of this was in Stanley’s head. I thought that would take the fun out of it. It’s a lot more fun to believe that these guys were all hanging out in Stanley’s room, and his parents never noticed it. It was a heavy-handed way of talking about getting closer to your kids, but nevertheless, that’s really what it was about. There was a funny one, I don’t know if it was ever published, I think it was. I don’t have a complete collection of Stanley, I’m going to try to get one. CBC: They’re tough to accumulate, to say the least. Arnold: I’m going to get on eBay and see if somebody is offering them. But, at any rate, there was one having to do with a neighbor who is a scientist and who is working on a death ray or something like that. And it turned out it really didn’t kill people, what it did was make them invisible.* This guy lives

Photo courtesy of Marc Svensson.

with his sister and she drives him nuts. He can’t stand her yammering. And this is a way to escape from her, by making himself invisible.* So he is invisible except for the pipe that he smokes and his toupee. But, at any rate, he winds up in the bedroom also. So you have the invisible man, Black Forest dwarf, the Irish leprechaun, the French ghost, and, of course, the original monster. I think maybe I solved the invisible professor’s problem at the end, because the bedroom was getting crowded. CBC: [Laughs] Was the monster seen by other people? Arnold: I don’t think I ever had anyone see the monster. Except, of course, for the other inhabitants of the room. They all know each other. They don’t get along to well. The German dwarf and the Irish leprechaun don’t get along at all.* CBC: Did you ever get a chance to read any fan letters or the stuff that came into the office? Arnold: Once in a while, Murray would show me one. I don’t think they wanted you to know that you were being appreciated, because then you might ask for more money. CBC: Did you have an intention with it? Because obviously, in retrospect, for me, it resonates. There’s something about getting a group of loners together that has import. I think you’re right, I think it’s the most under-appreciated of your work and I think it perhaps might be the most powerful, in that you could really do a lot with this concept. Because it speaks directly to the readership, which was increasingly becoming loner-types. It was less of a common American thing to read comics, because most were watching TV more than reading comics. Arnold: Well, also remember that it was a time when they were all moving to the suburbs, and by “all,” I mean the middle class, was moving to the suburbs, so this was something they could relate to. The very situation I was pointing to probably existed in a lot of communities, people moving in late in the development of the community, and their kids therefore being loners. I’m sure that there was quite a bit of that. CBC: Did you sit down and ponder the concept over a long period of time? Arnold: Oh, no. CBC: Did you write notes? Or did somebody say, “We’ve got to do something with Fox and Crow, there’s a problem with the title, we need to come up…”? Arnold: That was it, that was it. And I came up with this, which I’m pretty sure I copped, in part, from Crockett Johnson. I’m pretty sure I was conscious of the fact that this was a lot like Barnaby. He had a winged friend who was a kind of fairy. He had wings, he flew. I don’t remember what the explanation for that was, but nobody ever saw that guy, only Barnaby saw that guy. So I was on the same trail, the trail of the imagined friend, really. And saying, “What if the imagined friend is not imagined?” And that set me on the course. CBC: You had a child in the house at the time that was roughly the age of the kid, right? Arnold: Yeah. CBC: Did you see anything, having insight as a parent-- You know, the natural insecurities, not being able to sleep through the night, the way kids are, just growing up, they’re sensitive. Arnold: Yeah. CBC: Did you see that in your daughter, perhaps? Arnold: Oh, yeah. I used to ask her for story ideas. She’s the one who said… I would give her a lead. “Stanley is in bed and he hears a noise in the house, he goes downstairs, and what does he see?” And she said, “A ghost!” And that’s how the ghost of Napoleon was born. Why French? Because he came in a French grandfather’s clock. Stanley’s mother collects antiques and expensive knickknacks, and the ghost arrived in the French grandfather clock. The Black Forest dwarf and the Irish little man passed themselves off as dolls in order to get through U.S. customs. And his mother bought them at a toy store. CBC: You know, there’s certainly a smarmy hipness to the Jerry Lewis and the Bob Hope stuff, and to me it’s kind of like an American International Beach Blanket Bingo kind of thing. Were you permeated in that as well, of being cognizant of what kids were looking at, and trying to stay hip to that? Arnold: I suppose so. CBC: Because you had the motorcycle crew, and it was the Eric von Zipper char* Schnitzel and Shaugnessy. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

acter from the Beach Blanket Bingo movie, he was a biker, but he’s a goofball. Arnold: I suppose I was aware of that. I was aware of a lot that was going on. You will recall, in the first or second “Deadman” story, that the woman in the story, whose name escapes me at the moment, the one who owns the circus that Boston Brand has 20% of, she had a ne’er-do-well brother, and her brother got involved with a motorcycle gang, and it turns out that they were all smuggling drugs, as I recall. That was another door I kind of broke down. Nobody wrote about drugs until then. In the “Deadman” story, the local sheriff is involved with a member of the circus and they are hustling drugs. And the Code didn’t like that, but we got it past them. CBC: Oh, so they did try to stop that, but I thought it had been snuck through. I think it’s noted in the Overstreet Guide, I believe…? That there were drug references prior to the Code being changed…? Arnold: I suppose so. But I know that that was a very early… CBC: Oh, definitely, if not the first. So “Stanley” was in Fox and Crow for a period of time. Was it doing well enough to get its own book or changing the number over? Or was Fox and Crow totally irrelevant by that point? Arnold: Fox and Crow was irrelevant, and Stanley was doing well. Why it didn’t continue to do well, I don’t know. CBC: I did an interview with Joe Orlando, he basically gave me a disparaging story about coming into Liebowitz’s office and you were there, you were very casual. Too casual! Did you feel any hostility from the new regime at all? Obviously, you moved over to Marvel. Was DC just not the place to be? Arnold: Well, I moved over to Marvel because… To some degree, because they broke their word at DC. We had an agreement, oral though it was. (Notice I say “oral” when everybody says “verbal” these days.) [Jon laughs] But we had an oral agreement. Irwin and I agreed that he was going to take six months to decide whether I should lead the shop or not. Well, I knew instantly, when he said that, that this was bullsh*t. You don’t take six months to make that decision, you’ve already made that decision, and you’re trying to buy some time. So my reply was — with a smile — ”Okay, but, in the meantime, I want a 33% rate increase.” And he said, “Okay.” Which took the wind out of me, because I was sure he would negotiate. So I said, “And I’d like it on the next check.” And he said, “Okay.” And on the next check, it wasn’t there. So I decided that he was telling me to go screw myself. And that was about it. That, and the feeling that this was not going to be a happy ballpark for some time. The changes that were going on there were probably getting kind of nasty. Orlando, in fact, would have constantly been on my ass. TO BE CONCLUDED

Coming Next Issue:

In our final portion — despite Ye Ed. having hyped the preceding installment as containing discussion about the creation of the Doom Patrol (my apologies!) — Arnold discusses originating that bizarre super-hero team, plus his hand in creating Deadman, as well as the real reason behind the DC writers’ “strike,” his working for Warren Publications and Marvel, writing Little Lulu, and more! 27

darrick patrick’s ten questions

The Days of David Pepose

Ten thoughtful, well-considered answers (packed with advice a’plenty for wanna-be writers) because a publisher emailed me and asked how quickly I could finish this book. That was my first series, Spencer & Locke, and [David Pepose is a Ringo Award-winning writer whose comicpeople responded pretty well to it. It’s still one of my best-sellbook work includes titles such as Punisher, Savage Avengers, ing titles. I’ve been pursuing my writing career ever since. Fantastic Four, Spencer & Locke, Hulk, and much more. Raised Darrick: Who are some of the people that greatly influenced in St. Louis, he now lives in Los Angeles with his fiancée, Claire, you while growing up? and their dog, Ruby. He has also done work for Netflix, CBS, David: My mother has always been a big influence on me. I and Universal Studios. It was recently that announced that wrote and directed a one-act play in high school, and from the David will be penning the new Space Ghost series for Dynamite moment she saw it on stage, my mom told me I should pursue Entertainment. — Darrick.] a career in writing. Granted, she always envisioned me writing for David Letterman, but I think she’s proud of where I wound Darrick: What was the journey that led you to working up. Having a parent not just believe in my potential, but to acprofessionally within comic books? tively encourage my creative journey over the years, I consider David Pepose: My career path has always been more myself very fortunate. of a zig-zag trajectory. I got my start as an editorial intern at Another huge influence on me is my dad. He’s always been DC Comics, after three straight years of applying. I got to work incredibly passionate about his work and he’s always shown on books like Final Crisis, Batman: RIP, Green Lantern: Secret me how meaningful it is to have a calling in your life. He was Origin, and even some early pages of Greg Rucka and J.H. the one who first gave me permission to think of myself as a Williams III’s seminal Detective Comics run with Kate Kane as writer when he asked me: “What’s the one thing that only you Batwoman. can do?” I know there are other writers out there, but it was that I graduated into the Great Recession of 2008, however, so moment that I realized that nobody could write things the way I finding a full-time job in comics proved challenging. Luckily, I could write things. I think it was the week after he told me that, managed to cross paths with the new Batman assistant editor I started writing my first comic. Janelle Asselin, who was an alum at Newsarama. She connected And, finally, I’ve been so incredibly lucky to meet my me with her former editor, Troy Brownfield, who became a true fiancée, Claire, a voracious reader who really sparked my mentor for me. I wound up spending over a decade writing creative career by being so interested and invested in it. She’s reviews at Newsarama. It not only taught me the lay of the land the compass I’ve set my career towards. I don’t write stories as far as the comics industry unless Claire sees something in them first. If you want to get a was concerned, but forced me better sense of our dynamic, you should check out my Fantastic to really articulate what I did Four two-parter starring the Invisible Woman. Much of Reed and didn’t like. Richards’ narration about how much he loves and respects his Eventually, I found myself wife, that was all just a love letter to Claire. She’s just the best. hitting a wall as a reviewer. Darrick: Do you have any words of advice for other individuI wasn’t responding to the als looking to make a career with their writing abilities? books I was reading and I David: I’ve got three big pieces of advice for aspiring felt stuck in a rut. I needed to creators: the first is that you’re allowed to be terrible when you make a change or I needed to first start out. Greg Pak told me that during an interview and leave. And that’s when I finally it changed the course of my entire life. People often mystify had the inkling of an idea this career, acting like talent or skill is some hereditary trait, — “What if I wrote the kinds that you’ve either got it or you don’t. But learning how to of comics I would want to write is just a process, just like learning how to build a chair is read myself?” So, I wrote my a process. You learn by studying what others have done, and first script and I enjoyed that then by the painful process of trial and error as you try to build process. I wrote a treatment a chair by yourself. You’ll fix it in another draft — or you’ll learn for a full mini-series, which for the next script. Everybody sucks when they first start out. It’s poured out faster and easier part of the process. than literally any treatment And that leads to my second bit of advice: start small. You’ll I’ve written since. [laughs] learn a lot more by finishing an eight-page story than you will Then I found an artist just to by abandoning a six-issue mini-series. One of the best things draw some pitch pages, which I did when I was starting out as a reviewer is that I wrote an we got colored and lettered. eight-page story every day for 90 days. It didn’t have to be And then I emailed publishers good. It didn’t even have to make sense, let alone be anything with the pitch, just to say I’d that actually got published — it just had to be finished. This is all done it. about conditioning yourself, getting your reps in, and learning Well, the joke was on me, from your mistakes. by DARRICK PATRICK

This page: Above is Leinil Francis Yu cover art for Savage Avengers #1 [July ’22]. Below is David Pepose from when he started writing Savage Avengers in 2022, posting on Facebook, “Guess I better change my author photo now, huh?”

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Conan TM & © Conan Properties, Inc. All other characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Photo courtesy of David Pepose.

Spencer & Locke TM & © David Pepose & Jorge Santiago, Jr. Space Ghost TM & © Hanna-Barbera Productions, Inc.

And, finally: dessert first. Readers consume your work sequentially, but that doesn’t mean you have to create it that way. The ultimate enemy that any writer has is a blank page, so why not just write the thing that comes to mind first? If you’re thinking about a romantic scene, write that romantic scene. If you’re thinking about car chases, write a car chase. The worstcase scenario is you figure out quickly that your idea doesn’t have legs, in which case you can jettison it quickly in favor of something you’ll actually finish — but, more often than not, you’ll just build up momentum. You don’t have to kill yourself brute-forcing through the tricky spots of your scripts. It’s much easier to finesse out some tricky connecting tissue if you’ve already got 80 percent of the rest of your script fully written, you know? Darrick: How do you spend your time on a typical workday? David: There’s no such thing as a typical workday for me. [laughs] Sometimes I’ll be watching movies and TV shows to get some inspiration for what to work on next. Sometimes I’ll be writing down bullet points for plot elements I’d like to hit, or I’ll be writing out a full treatment to just get my ideas out in a linear way. Other times, it’s promo days, where I’ll make sure I’m signal-boosting my books when they’re coming out. Sometimes it’s just pitch days, where I’m emailing editors to stay on their radar. Other times, it’s just reading days. Sometimes you just need to have an afternoon reading this week’s comics to remind yourself why you’re doing this! Honestly, there’s so much work that goes into a writing career that isn’t strictly writing, but it’s when all the development and pitching is finally over that I really get into my zone, which is my scripting days. That’s my favorite, when you get to play around with the pacing and the dialogue and start noticing as character quirks and themes start to pop up as you translate your treatment into a page-to-page, panel-to-panel story. It feels like the difference between coming up with sheet music and actually getting to play the song. There’s nothing quite like it. Darrick: For new readers who may not be familiar with your work, what are some projects of yours that you would recommend to begin with? David: My first book, Spencer & Locke, was the perfect first book for me. There’s absolutely some roughness around the edges, but it really encapsulated a lot of the themes, intensity, and irreverence that I wanted to pursue as a professional writer. Savage Avengers is another one. It’s probably one of my favorite works I’ve done at Marvel to date, along with my story “A Hard Day’s Knight,” in Moon Knight: Black, White & Blood. Both of them, I think, explore some of my favorite themes, about dysfunctional heroes and the various ways they attempt to cope. Darrick: Who are a few of the people in the comics industry that you hold a high deal of respect for? David: There’s honestly so many people. Scott Snyder, Dan Slott, Matthew Rosenberg, Steve Orlando, Greg Pak, Bryan Edward Hill, and Ron Marz were all people who offered me a ton of encouragement and advice when I was first starting my career as a writer. These are all big-name, well-established people that not only did not have to give me advice, but often had no reason to be as gracious as they were, given my misspent youth as a former comic book reviewer. [laughs] Phillip Kennedy Johnson is another person who I think is just an incredibly stand-up guy, and the fact that he’s so prolific and talented while also being a genuinely honorable person, I think it’s a rare combination that I think will take him deservedly far. My primary editor at Marvel, Tom Brevoort, is another person who I can’t speak highly enough of. This is a man who’s been at this profession for decades and you can only imagine COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

how many different plates he’s spinning every single day. It’d be easy for someone like that to cut corners, to ghost people, to not pay attention to the small stuff — but the moment he first gave me notes on Savage Avengers, I knew this guy was the real deal. He’s got a lot of integrity and is really committed to making quality books. Every time we’ve worked together, he consistently goes the extra mile to make sure he’s covering all the story angles. He’s the best editor I’ve ever encountered in this business, and I’ve learned an incredible amount working with him. Darrick: Outside of creating stories, what are your other interests? David: I love movies, so I try to carve out time to go to the theater whenever there’s something interesting out. I always try to get some exercise in, so I hit the gym at least three times a week, and I tend to walk through the park near my apartment whenever I want to break up my workday. My newest obsession has been Dungeons & Dragons. I’ve played on a few campaigns over Zoom, and it’s been a lot of fun getting to learn the rules building each character. And playing with my puppy, Ruby — she’s a handful, especially when she feels like she hasn’t gotten enough of my attention lately. Darrick: What is your oldest memory? David: I remember seeing the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in concert during the “Coming Out of Their Shells” tour — which, to a four-year-old, was basically like seeing the Beatles live. [laughs] And, in case anybody’s wondering, my favorite Ninja Turtle is still Raphael. Darrick: Tell us something about you that most people don’t know. David: My first-ever comics credit was a weekly comic strip for my high school online newspaper. I wrote and drew it about the one teacher at our school who didn’t have a home room, and all the crazy misadventures he encountered as he carted his stuff from one classroom to the next. It was titled “Where’s Granneman?” [laughs] I probably owe this man my entire career. Darrick: When you’re no longer amongst the living, how would you most like to be remembered? David: If there are fans out there that remember my work and feel something positive about my books after I’ve passed away, that would be a hell of a tribute. But, honestly, I just want my family and friends to remember me as somebody who loved them, as somebody who hopefully made them laugh — and I’d love my future kids and grandkids to read my work when I’m gone, and to have a little touchstone to remember me by. That’s ultimately what this work is. It’s me building my legacy. Once it’s out of my hands, it’s ultimately up to the readers what they remember me by.

Above: Cover for Spencer & Locke #1 [Apr. ’17]. Art by Maan House. Below: Cover detail, by Francesco Mattina, Space Ghost #1 [May ’24].

incoming

Space Blackhawks and Keef!

The inspiration revealed behind Val Mayerik’s “Howard the Duck” CBC cover and other stuff Joe Frank

Roy Thomas Enjoyed the issue [CBC #34], as usual. One addition — not really a correction — to Dan Jurgens’ tale of working with Gerry Conway on Gerry’s and my concept Sun Devils at DC. Originally, Gerry and I came up with the idea of doing a “future Blackhawks” — using the “Blackhawk” name. It was to be a group of Solar System heroes — I think one from each planet, in some far-flung future, where that was conceivable — battling invaders. (At about age 12, I had made up a similar group, with a different name, in a comic I wrote and drew myself, long lost.) DC loved the idea of “Future Blackhawks in Space,” until suddenly they didn’t love it anymore and decided that we couldn’t call it Blackhawk or The Blackhawks. So we (maybe Gerry) came up with the name Sun Devils. At that point, being fairly busy, I decided I’d rather turn the whole thing over to Gerry, who I presume did a fine job of it. [Fascinating, Roy! Thanks for sharing. — Y.E.]

Jason Strangis I just returned from WonderCon in Anaheim, California. Another fun show for sure! And totally exhausting. Whew! I stopped by the TwoMorrrows booth and bought a bunch of comics magazines from the past year. I have to catch up on all the great stuff I missed from 2023–24. Of course, I started with Comic Book Creator [#33] and the radio interview broadcast reprint on Steve Gerber. Really interesting insight from Steve. I forgot about Omega the Unknown (a comic I collected around 12 years old) and didn’t know that Steve Gerber was a driving force behind that cult favorite series. My favorite stuff written by Gerber would have to be the Foolkiller series, from the early 1990s. The covers really grabbed me, and Gerber’s thoughtful prose and philosophy on a world gone mad (sort of like current times) really struck me at the time. Nice to know that Gerber considered it his best writing for comic books. If possible, perhaps you can take a more in-depth look at the Foolkiller series in an upcoming CBA. In addition to the piece on Steve Gerber, I also enjoyed #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Foolkiller TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Above: Okay, we know this Foolkiller depiction drawn by Kevin Nowlan and Joe Rubinstein is not the same version creator Steve Gerber featured in his ten-issue mini-series [’90–’91], about which CBC pal Jason Strangis hopes we’ll focus on soon, but this detail from The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Vol. 2 #17 [Aug. ’87] sure is pretty! Opposite page: Ye Ed. hadn’t the faintest idea that Val Mayerik’s “Howard the Duck with Man-Thing hand puppet” [CBC #33] art was actually a pastiche of Sebastian KrÜger’s “Keith Richards with Mick Jagger hand puppet” painting from 1989! But reader Jammin’ Jami Johnson has clued us in. (When we couldn’t find the actual aforementioned HTD/M-T piece, we learned Val had made a pastiche of his pastiche with Howard and Omega the Unknown, all the more appropriate as Omega co-creator Mary Skrenes was also in the ish!). At center, KrÜger anticipates Mick’s response [’90–91]!

Comic Book Creator #34 particularly emphasized the strengths of your format: a lengthy, meaty interview, but also much of interest in the shorter features. You achieved an impressive equal balance. I think the key, with one- or two-pagers is you squeeze so much in that it doesn’t come across as rushed or superficial. If we wish we had more, you’ve done your job. Certainly, your editorials, where you allude to coming plans or the convention photo feature seem a wonderful use of a single page; offering significant content in a confined space. Likewise, of great interest and amusement this time: The June Brigman segment where she noted being astounded at an in-person viewing of Gil Kane constructing figures from every conceivable angle and contortion — beyond impressive, it was influential, giving her the determination to work at it, too… Also impressive was her grateful remembrances of Louise and Walt Simonson, so many decades later. Linda Sunshine and those early comics collections were also attention-getting. There were not a whole lot of comic books collected in book form, at that point, aside from paperback volumes.… Loved her meager $30 budget to wine and dine Carmine Infantino. Hilarious. Enjoyed the final segment of your Frank Borth retrospective. In looking at his art, he had all sorts of pleasing styles and didn’t fade from working when he left comics behind. He found plenty of other things to do. What made me laugh here was seeing him in causal clothing; just shorts and a shirt. In some photos of working artists, in their studio, especially the Golden Age era, some guys are in formal shirts and ties. Puzzling when dealing with graphite and ink. Maybe, in a photo op context, a way to suggest it’s a dignified job? The main interview, with Dan Jurgens, was thought-provoking and pleasant, though I differed on several points. I liked his material when I was reading Superman and am pleased he’s still working away, unlike others who retired, found alternate outlets or have been severely under-utilized. In contrast to Dan, who appreciated Superman immediately when he started reading, I was less impressed with the mid’60s offerings. I thought it was fit only for grudging attention at the barbershop. So, when they did a version I actually liked, in the ’80s and ’90s, believe me, no one was more surprised than me. Dan hit on the answer why in his comments: it was about the humanity of the various characters. They gave us reason to care. (I echo his admiration for editor Mike Carlin and fellow pro Jerry Ordway. Both added considerably. In fact, after the run, I started following Jerry’s work on subsequent books and projects. He’s amazing. The fact DC isn’t making constant use of his services is beyond disappointing.) Dan emphasized that he’s a writer/artist. That’s fine and impressive. But, so long as the creative team is in sync, even separate writers and artists are a pleasurable experience. The key to a writer/artist is that they are fully committed in prose and visuals. No conflict or aggravation. The potential downside is they may emphasize what they

like to draw rather than what best serves the needs of the story. I don’t point at Dan with that; only that it has happened with other writer/artists. I know the “Death of Superman” arc, and follow-ups, were the most actively talked about. But, the fact is, there were years of work prior by the same crew, equally deserving of attention. Superlative material that tends to be comparatively overlooked. A shame. Dan did touch on something that I wish had been delved into more. In talking about Ross Andru, he noted that guy, through experience, knew how to compose an effective cover. Yet little in the way of details were given. Almost forgot: how could Dan be watching Lost In Space when Batman aired? Frustratingly, they competed on Wednesday nights. Maybe he saw the first 15 episodes before abandoning the Robinsons as my grade school classmates did? [As always, thanks, J.F.! — Ye Ed.]

reading your interview with Mary Skrenes. I am always amazed and astounded at your incredible knowledge of comic book history, not only about major publishers, but minor ones, as well. As somewhat of a comic historian myself, I appreciate your tireless efforts to get the facts right in your articles and interviews. (If only newspaper reporters and TV news stations in current times could focus on the real truth; alas). [Jason, who helped me with Comic Book Artist Bullpen way back when, tells me he’s been contributing a column, “Strange Days,” to Scary Monsters magazine for the past seven years! Check it out, CBCers! — Y.E.]

Keith Richards, Mick Jagger paintings © Sebastian KrÜger. Howard the Duck, Man-Thing, Omega the Unknown TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Jammin’ Jami Johnson Got CBC #33 (a little late, my fault) on Gerber with the Val Mayerik stupendous Howard the Duck/Omega cover. My question on the Mayerik cover is: do you know what Val and/or the commissioner of the piece based this on? Not the “Man-Thing as puppet” original, but what inspired that directly? I do. It’s Keith Richards, Chrissie Hynde’s all-time hero, who is the inspiration for the original Mayerik commission! Loved that [1989] painting by Sebastian KrÜger for years. It hangs in Keith’s finished basement in Connecticut. [Jammin’ Jami, front man of his band, SEZWAH, also shared a link to his hour-long documentary on YouTube depicting SEZWAH’s version of “The REAL Marvel universe,” which disputes much of the so-called “Marvel Cinematic Universe” produced by Hollywood. I can’t vouch one way or t’other except to say it’s quite the enthusiastic, intense production! Judge for yourself: https://youtu.be/i_UH2DWrQtY?si=3Nk2Gn-6Xpz9vuac — Y.E.]

Mark Reznicek Longtime reader (since before Comic Book Artist; i.e., your articles in early issues of The Jack Kirby Collector), first time writing in. I’ve really been enjoying CBC, in all its eclectic glory. While it doesn’t send me scrambling for the back issue bins quite like CBA’s themed issues did, I still read every issue cover to cover. My only criticism so far has been your inclusion of Graham Nolan [CBC #31]. While I was a fan of his Batman work and various other stuff back in the day, he has since become involved in the #comicsgate hate group. This group has openly harassed women, people of color, members of LGBTQ, and other marginalized communities. They should be shunned, condemned, and avoided, not given a forum. And while Mr. Nolan did not discuss these abhorrent views in his interview, he is a well-known member of the group, appearing on various podcasts and YouTube shows hosted by some of these hateful trolls. So I was COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

not pleased to see him featured in your mag, despite his obvious artistic talent. But really, the main reason I’m writing is to express my support for you doing a book about Treasure Chest! Yes, yes, yes! Please do it! While I did grow up Catholic and went to a Catholic grade school from first through fourth grade (1968-72), I only came in at the tail end of TC’s quarter century of comics publishing in 1972, buying the last year or so before they went out of business. However, in true Catholic style, I come from a large family, and my older siblings bought and read TC comics. These books were always laying around the house and so naturally I’d read them (along with all my sibs’ other comics, like Silver Age Marvel, DC, Gold Key, Archie, etc.). So a book about this company’s long history would be most welcome. It would also be great if you could reprint some of the better strips, too. A complete reprinting of the “Pettigrew for President” serial seems long overdue, for example. Anyway, I hope there’s a growing chorus for you to do this book. Your recent Frank Borth retrospective was great. Would love to read more about Fran Matera and all the other great creators and features in Treasure Chest. So please consider it! Thanks for listening. Keep up the great work. [I received a like complaint about Nolan’s political views from a longtime friend, so you’re not alone, but the world is partisan enough for CBC to initiate any ideological litmus test for subjects. That said, neo-Nazis need not apply! — Y.E.]

Ben Gross I’d like to comment on, of all things, the Fred Hembeck page [CBC #33] . Fred really nailed it here, as I think most of us have that magical childhood time when the comics bug really bit into us and we became infected for life. Those books we experienced then, in that time, remain the emotional touchstones for our entire lives. My own “magical “ summer may have been 1974. I was aware of Creepy and Eerie, as I had several issues from 1971, but Berni Wrightson’s “Jenifer,” in, I think, Creepy #63 [July ’74] was the “Moment Of Magic” for me… Nineteen-seventy-four is the summer I discovered Warren’s Spirit reprints… Now, add on top of that, the several 12¢ Fantastic Fours from 1965 at my local barbershop, just ten years old or so, but seemingly from another world and other time. Incredible. What is this fantastic, cosmic stuff? Where can I find them? They are almost as old as me! And finally, there’s good old Famous Monster of Filmland and, in 1974, I am rabid and hopelessly addicted to the garishly colored Basil Gogos painted covers… Alone worth the one buck admission. I haunt my local 7-Eleven, breathlessly waiting for each new issue… Yes, 1974 was my “magical” year. 31

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Celebrating 30 years of artist’s artist MARK SCHULTZ, creator of the CADILLACS AND DINOSAURS franchise, with a feature-length, career-spanning interview conducted in Mark’s Pennsylvanian home, examining the early years of struggle, success with Kitchen Sink Press, and hitting it big with a Saturday morning cartoon series. Includes rarely-seen art and fascinating photos from Mark’s amazing and award-winning career. (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95

4-issue subscriptions: $53 US $78 International

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A look at 75 years of Archie Comics’ characters and titles, from Archie and his pals ‘n gals to the mighty MLJ heroes of yesteryear and today’s “Dark Circle”! Also: Careerspanning interviews with The Fox’s DEAN HASPIEL and Kevin Keller’s cartoonist DAN PARENT, who both jam on our exclusive cover depicting a face-off between humor and heroes. Plus our usual features, including the hilarious FRED HEMBECK!

Career-spanning discussion with STEVE “THE DUDE” RUDE, as he shares his reallife psychological struggles, the challenges of freelance subsistence, and his creative aspirations. Also: The jungle art of NEAL ADAMS, MARY FLEENER on her forthcoming graphic novel Billie the Bee and her comix career, RICH BUCKLER interview Part Three, Golden Age artist FRANK BORTH, HEMBECK and more!

NOT YOUR AVERAGE JOES! Interview with JOSEPH MICHAEL LINSNER (CRY FOR DAWN, VAMPIRELLA), a chat with JOE SINNOTT about his Marvel years inking Jack Kirby and work at TREASURE CHEST, JOE JUSKO discusses the Marvel Age of Comics and his fabulous “Corner Box Collection,” plus the artists behind the Topps bubble gum BAZOOKA JOE comic strips, CRAIG YOE, and more!

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ERIC POWELL celebrates 20 years of THE GOON! with a career-spanning interview and a gallery of rare artwork. Plus CBC editor and author JON B. COOKE on his new retrospective THE BOOK OF WEIRDO, a new interview with R. CRUMB about his work on that legendary humor comics anthology, JOHN ROMITA SR. on his admiration for the work of MILTON CANIFF, and more!

P. CRAIG RUSSELL career-spanning interview (complete with photos and art gallery), an almost completely unknown work by FRANK QUITELY (artist on All-Star Superman and The Authority), DERF BACKDERF’s forthcoming graphic novel commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Kent State shootings, CAROL TYLER shares her prolific career, JOE SINNOTT discusses his Treasure Chest work, CRAIG YOE, and more!

WENDY PINI discusses her days as Red Sonja cosplayer, & 40+ years of ELFQUEST! Plus RICHARD PINI on their 48-year marriage and creative partnership! Plus: We have the final installment of our CRAIG YOE interview! GIL KANE’s business partner LARRY KOSTER talks about their adventures together! PABLO MARCOS on his Marvel horror work, HEMBECK, and more! Cover by WENDY PINI.

TIMOTHY TRUMAN discusses his start at the Kubert School, Grimjack with writer JOHN OSTRANDER, and current collaborations with son Benjamin. SCOTT SHAW! talks about early San Diego Comic-Cons and friendship with JACK KIRBY, Captain Carrot, and Flintstones work! Also PATRICK McDONNELL’s favorite MUTTS comic book pastiches, letterer JANICE CHIANG profiled, HEMBECK, and more! TIM TRUMAN cover.

BARRY WINDSOR-SMITH discusses his new graphic novel MONSTERS, its origin as a 1980s Hulk story, and its evolution into his 300-page magnum opus (includes a gallery of outtakes). Plus part two of our SCOTT SHAW! interview about HannaBarbera licensing material and work with ROY THOMAS on Captain Carrot, KEN MEYER, JR. looks at the great fanzines of 40 years ago, HEMBECK, and more!

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Career-spanning interview with TERRY DODSON, and Terry’s wife (and go-to inker) RACHEL DODSON! Plus 1970s/’80s portfolio producer SAL QUARTUCCIO talks about his achievements with Phase and Hot Stuf’, R. CRUMB and DENIS KITCHEN discuss the history of underground comix character Pro Junior, WILL EISNER’s Valentines to his wife, HEMBECK, and more!

Extensive PAUL GULACY retrospective by GREG BIGA that includes Paul himself, VAL MAYERIK, P. CRAIG RUSSELL, TIM TRUMAN, ROY THOMAS, and others. Plus a JOE SINNOTT MEMORIAL; BUD PLANT discusses his career as underground comix retailer, distributor, fledgling publisher of JACK KATZ’s FIRST KINGDOM, and mail-order bookseller; our regular columnists, and the latest from HEMBECK!

STEVE BISSETTE career-spanning interview, from his Joe Kubert School days, Swamp Thing stint, publisher of Taboo and Tyrant, creator rights crusader, and more. Also, Part One of our MIKE GOLD interview on his Chicago youth, start in underground comix, and arrival at DC Comics, right in time for the implosion! Plus BUD PLANT on his publishing days, comic shop owner, and start in mail order—and all the usual fun stuff!

DON McGREGOR retrospective, from early ’70s Warren Publications scripter to his breakout work at Marvel Comics on BLACK PANTHER, KILLRAVEN, SABRE, DETECTIVES INC., RAGAMUFFINS, and others. Plus ROBERT MENZIES looks at HERB TRIMPE’s mid-’70s UK visit to work on Marvel’s British comics weeklies, MIKE GOLD Part Two, and CARtoons cartoonist SHAWN KERRIE! SANDY PLUNKETT cover!

Canadian comic book artist, illustrator, and graphic novelist MICHAEL CHO in a career-spanning interview and art gallery, a 1974 look at JACK ADLER and the DC Comics production department’s process of reprinting Golden Age material, color newspaper tabloid THE FUNNY PAGES examined in depth by its editor RON BARRETT, plus CBC’s usual columns and features, including HEMBECK! Edited by JON B. COOKE.

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(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99

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Career-spanning interview with Bane’s co-creator GRAHAM NOLAN! Plus, STAN LEE’s Carnegie Hall debacle of 1972, the Golden Age Quality Comics’ work of FRANK BORTH (Phantom Lady, Spider Widow), and GREG BIGA talks with ex-DC Comics co-publisher DAN DIDIO on his current career as writer/creator on the FRANK MILLER PRESENTS comics line, as well as that new comics line’s publisher!

WILLIAM STOUT is interviewed about his illustration and comics work, as well as his association with DINOSAURS publisher BYRON PREISS, the visionary packager/ publisher who is also celebrated in this double-header issue. Included is the only comprehensive interview ever conducted with PREISS, plus a huge biographical essay. Also MIKE DEODATO on his early years and FRANK BORTH on Treasure Chest!

STEVE GERBER biographical essay and collaborator insights, MARY SKRENES on co-creating Omega the Unknown, helping develop Howard the Duck, VAL MAYERIK cover and interview, ROY THOMAS reveals STAN LEE’s unseen EXCELSIOR! COMICS line, LINDA SUNSHINE (editor of early hardcover super-hero collections), more with MIKE DEODATO, and the concluding segment on FRANK BORTH!

DAN JURGENS talks about Superman, Sun Devils, creating Booster Gold, developing the “Doomsday scenario” with the demise of the Man of Steel, and more! Traverse DON GLUT’s “Glutverse” continuity across Gold Key, Marvel, and DC! Plus RICK ALTERGOTT, we conclude our profiles of MIKE DEODATO, JR. and FRANK BORTH, LINDA SUNSHINE (editor of DC/Marvel hardcover super-hero collections), & more!

An in-depth look at the life and career of writer/editor DENNY O’NEIL, and part one of a career-spanning interview with ARNOLD DRAKE, co-creator of The Doom Patrol and Deadman! Plus the story behind Studio Zero, the ’70s collective of JIM STARLIN, FRANK BRUNNER, ALAN WEISS, and others! Warren horror mag writer/ historian JACK BUTTERWORTH, alternative cartoonist TIM HENSLEY, & more!

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CBA BULLPEN COLLECTING THE UNKNOWN ISSUES OF COMIC BOOK ARTIST! COMIC BOOK ARTIST BULLPEN collects all seven issues of the little-seen labor of love fanzine published in the early 2000s by JON B. COOKE (editor of today’s COMIC BOOK CREATOR magazine), just after the original CBA ended its TwoMorrows run. Featured are in-depth interviews with some of comics’ major league players, including GEORGE TUSKA, FRED HEMBECK, TERRY BEATTY, and FRANK BOLLE—and an amazing all-star tribute to Silver Age great JACK ABEL by the Marvel Comics Bullpen and others. That previously unpublished all-comics Abel appreciation (assembled by RICK PARKER) includes strips by JOE KUBERT, WALTER SIMONSON, KYLE BAKER, MARIE SEVERIN, GRAY MORROW, ALAN WEISS, SERGIO ARAGONÉS, MORT TODD, DICK AYERS, and many more! Plus a new bonus feature on JACK KIRBY’s unknown 1960s baseball card art, and a 16-page bonus full-color section, all behind a Jack Kirby cover! (176-page trade paperback with COLOR) $24.95 • (Digital Edition) $8.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-105-9 • NOW SHIPPING!

ALSO AVAILABLE: DIGITAL EDITIONS OF ALL 25 ISSUES OF CBA Vol. 1 TwoMorrows also offers Digital Editions of Jon B. Cooke’s COMIC BOOK ARTIST Vol. 2 (the “Top Shelf” issues)

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NEAL ADAMS/ALEX ROSS cover and interviews with both, history of “Arcade, The Comics Revue” with underground legends CRUMB, SPIEGELMAN, and GRIFFITH, MICHAEL MOORCOCK on comic book adaptations of his work, CRAIG THOMPSON sketchbook, and more!

Exhaustive FRANK CHO interview and sketchbook gallery, ALEX ROSS sketchbook section of never-before-seen pencils, MIKE FRIEDRICH on the history of Star*Reach, plus animator J.J. SEDELMAIER on his Ambiguously Gay Duo and The X-Presidents cartoons for Saturday Night Live.

Interview with DARWYN COOKE and a gallery of rarely-seen and unpublished artwork, a chat with DC Comics art director MARK CHIARELLO, an exploration of The Adventures of Little Archie with creator BOB BOLLING and artist DEXTER TAYLOR, new JAY STEPHENS sketchbook section, and more!

ALEX NIÑO’s first ever full-length interview and huge gallery of his artwork, interview with BYRON PREISS on his career in publishing, plus the most comprehensive look ever at the great Filipino comic book artists (NESTOR REDONDO, ALFREDO ALCALA, and others), a STEVE RUDE sketchbook, and more!

HOWARD CHAYKIN interview and gallery of unpublished artwork, a look at the ’70s black-&-white mags published by Skywald, tribute to Psycho and Nightmare writer/editor ALAN HEWETSON, LEAH MOORE & JOHN REPPION on Wild Girl, a SONNY LIEW sketchbook section, and more!

Double-sized tribute to WILL EISNER! Over 200 comics luminaries celebrate his career and impact: SPIEGELMAN, FEIFFER & McCLOUD on their friendships with Eisner, testimonials by ALAN MOORE, NEIL GAIMAN, STAN LEE, RICHARD CORBEN, JOE KUBERT, DAVID MAZZUCCHELLI, JOE SIMON, and others!

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that guy from brooklyn

Flatbush’s Problem Child

Dan DiDio shares about his eclectic career in this first portion of our two-part interview Conducted by GREG BIGA

[Dan DiDio is a quintessential New Yorker. Regardless of where his career has taken him, Dan remains the guy who will eat a hot dog at a Yankees game and scarfs a slice of New York pizza pie whenever he gets the chance. Simply put, the old neighborhood never left Dan’s heart. He’s forever a brash and purpose-driven so-and-so, who has never shrunk from an opportunity to take on a new professional challenge. In this interview, Dan describes his journey from his Brooklyn neighborhood of Flatbush to how he came to head the comic book company he had loved since being a boy, along the way working in N.Y.C.-based soap operas, This page: The world’s first and then developing Saturday morning kid TV shows. — G.B.]

glimpse of “Diabolical” Dan DiDio was as a “Monster of the Month” in Famous Monsters of Filmland #92 [Sept. ’72]. On the next page is the man himself, at Comic City, during Free Comic Book Day 2014, in a pic by our own convention photographer, Kendall Whitehouse. Below is young Dan dressing up as John Steed (seen portrayed by actor Patrick Macnee, at right), from the British TV series, The Avengers.

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Famous Monsters of Filmland TM & © Lococho, LLC.

Comic Book Creator: We are all a part of those who brought us into the world. Who are your parents? Dan DiDio: My parents, you know, were pretty close to a middle-income, Brooklyn family. Both my parents were a second-generation Italian and it’s a rather normal, peaceful sort of life. For the most part… I mean, you got to understand they come from a large Italian family. So we always have a lot of people around us. In my family, too, I have one older brother and two older sisters. I was the baby of the family and it was 10 years between me and my next sibling. Just to show you, I was the late-in-life child. So I was a handful for my poor parents in their later days, I must say, but they seemed to enjoy it just the same. CBC: So was your name actually “damn” when they found out you were coming? Dan: My mother was very sweet about it. She always said I kept her young. I think that’s the code word for “exhausted.” CBC: What did your parents do for a living? Dan: My father worked for Transit Authority and my mother was a stay-at-home mom. So it was always good, because my father worked with the trains. We used to go visit him at the substation, down in Coney Island, and used to make a day out of it when I was a little kid. We’d go visit dad and then go to the beach, because his job was a block off the beach. I used to sit under the boardwalk, lay in the sand, they’d have lunch, and then he’d go back to work, and we’d go home. CBC: So it’s not necessarily

totally idyllic, but definitely a great time to be a youth back then, I take it? Dan: Yeah… well, you know, growing up in Brooklyn, in the ’60s and ’70s, is a lot different than it is today. It really is one of those things when you’re growing up and you’re a child of the neighborhood. So you’re the entire neighborhood’s problem. You’d be over somebody’s house, a different house every day with a different friend, different parents, nobody knows where you are. You leave nine o’clock in the morning, come back at nine o’clock at night. And, somehow, they knew you’re always okay. CBC: You were very much site-specific growing up? Dan: Oh yeah. I was very much in the in the area of Brooklyn where I grew up in. It covered a large section within Flatbush, Flatland, for those people who know Brooklyn. And, you know, it was an interesting area to grow up because New York, in those days, was a real melting pot, for all intents and purposes. The neighborhood I grew up in was, even though I was Italian, it was mostly an Irish neighborhood. So a real working-class neighborhood. CBC: Where you grew up was there a specific religion or a specific background? What was that like for you in those interactions growing up? How did that have an effect on you? Dan: I was a public-school kid in the Catholic school group. So I was always a little bit on the outside, you know. I actually liked just the exposure in the world and the different options of things that I used to be able to do and a lot of my friends growing up were… as I said, it was a real melting pot, a real mix. So it was a real fun group. I mean, when I was 13 years old, a lot of my school friends threw me a bar mitzvah, because I was the only non-Jew and they felt bad for me. CBC: And as far as working through your daily life with the group of friends you had, and with your parents, what was it about those folks and even those times that helped you become who you were going to become? Dan: It’s interesting, because the reality is my parents were a little bit older, and my brothers and sisters were older. I actually probably hung closest to my brothers and sisters than I did my own parents. So my oldest sister was handicapped at an early age. She was a textile designer. She loved movies and plays, and everything like that. She was the one that really did enjoy the arts. And I probably watched and stayed with her the most, and picked up so many of my interests through her, and through my brother and other sister, than I did through my own parents. You know, so because the things that they liked, were the things that were exploding in culture at the moment. CBC: As far as your neighborhood, what were the things that were exploding at that time? Was there anything in particular that was driving you? Dan: I’m a kid in the ’60s. What were the three big customs of the ’60s? Monsters, toys, and space, and I loved all three. You know, I remember the toys at the time, the movies, and TV shows, everything in that period is what I absorbed most. As a big kid — Famous Monsters of Filmland. My sister actually corresponded with [FMoF editor] Forrest J Ackerman, over a number

John Steed TM & © the respective copyright holder. Older DiDio portrait © Kendall Whitehouse. Used with permission. Young DiDio pic courtesy of Dan DiDio.

of years. Actually, when I was 10, she took me to meet Forrest. He happened to be in New York, so we met him in Manhattan. He let me wear — true story! — the Dracula rings Bela Lugosi wore in the original Dracula movie. I got a chance to wear it as a 10-year-old! You know, those days were before we were able to take pictures [with phones] and post every 15 minutes. But I remember wearing that vividly. And he actually took one of my school photos, and I was actually one of the “Monsters of the Month,” in Famous Monsters of Filmland [#92, Sept. 1972]. Coincidentally in the Lugosi issue. That was as a little 10-yearold. We used to go to conventions. I started going when I was 10, and I probably haven’t gone a year without ever going to conventions since then. CBC: What inspired you to start attending? Dan: It was a fun way to get out. Again, like I said, everything you did was in Brooklyn, in the neighborhood. So, if there was a chance to do something outside, to go into Manhattan or (as we like to say, “going into the city”)… When you went into the city, you jumped at the opportunity because they were few and far between. Little did I know that I’d be commuting there every day a few years later. A lot of the bloom came off the rose by then. CBC: What were things that were going on at that time that were kind of getting under your skin and starting to get the juices flowing? Was this like a James Bond or Man from U.N.C.L.E. thing? Dan: I was a big Man from U.N.C.L.E. fan. With my brother, we were The Avengers fans like nobody’s business, Steed and Mrs. Peele. There’s a picture of me at 10-,12-years-old dressed as John Steed, because that was the guy that was super-dapper, super-cool. That’s who I wanted to be. So that’s my first cosplay ever, possibly my last. But, you know, there were things like that which I really enjoyed. And my brother on the other side, he would take me to all the Godzilla movies and different horror movies that were out. Movies were the big experience. You know, again, going into what was the big event… going to see Planet of the Apes in Manhattan, before it made it into Brooklyn… Because, in the early days, a movie would premiere on limited screens in Manhattan and sit there for two, three months before they would play in the rest of the city. So you would see it out there almost within reach, but you weren’t able to see it yet. So you had to go into Manhattan when it first came

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

out. That was a big deal. CBC: With those things being parts of your interest, what were the things that began to get you going creatively? Dan: Since I liked the monsters, we used to have, you know, Chiller Theater and Creature Features on Saturday nights. You always got your weekly dose of horror movies, things like that. And, when you see things like that depicted, you start to want to draw them and to tell stories of the monster you just saw on the screen. There weren’t 17 sequels in those days, there wasn’t streaming; the movie plays and it disappears forever. So the only way you can get any more of that is to start to do your own versions of those stories, and write them out yourself, and tell the story about the thing you just saw and now love so much. CBC: Did your interest start with illustration or the writing? Dan: I used to tell every artist in DC that I have trouble drawing a straight line. So it was about the storytelling. I like to tell stories. I used to tell stories and we had a lot of fun. And we used to create worlds and maps and things just to create environments and games, and play with them. And that’s what I enjoyed doing, really at an early age. I was a big fan of anthology. You know, I love [TV shows] like Twilight Zone and One Step Beyond. And probably my first comics buy, on a regular basis, are things like House of Mystery, House of Secrets, Tales of the Unexpected, Where Monsters Dwell… all of those type of books. I loved mixing up stories. I love that short O. Henry-style 35

Above: Doubtless, Dan was describing the Horror Comics of the 1950s hardback collection of E.C. Comics reprints published by Nostalgia Press, which was purchased by his sister and he read cover-to-cover. Dan described it as, “I just devoured it to death”! Below: New Yorkers of a certain age, including Ye Ed., remember the “Miracle Mets” of 1969. Here’s a humorous representation of the team by the late, great Jack Davis.

CBC: “If God is watching, I’m not doing it, I promise.” Dan: That was so hard, I can’t tell you. It was a phony ad in MAD magazine. I never forgot, as a kid, I was playing in Little League at the time I saw it. It was a shot of a kid at bat where what it was the parent was yelling at the kid, the umpire was yelling at the parent, was like, “What’s going on?!” It just made me laugh because I’d been at those games. And then, when I saw the original piece, I’m like, “Oh, my God! It’s here!” CBC: As you’re growing up, obviously, you’re taking in matinees, movies, watching shows… were you a social animal with other kids at that time? Dan: It’s funny. Like I said, I was a real working-class neighborhood, but everybody had their own interests. Everybody’s very big on sports. There are one or two friends of mine that had an interest in horror, or maybe a little bit of comics, growing up a little bit later. But, you know, for me, it was my thing, it’s something I enjoyed. So I didn’t really care if I shared it, because I got enjoyment out of it, participating by myself. I didn’t feel the desperate need to go out and speak about it to anybody else, because it was something that I probably was enjoying with the family, more so than with a friend. CBC: And you being a native New Yorker, I have to ask this question: what does it mean to you to be a New Yorker? Dan: It meant the pace, there’s a sensibility, there’s an attitude, a camaraderie, an anger… there’s a whole bunch of stuff that all just in this big, big stew. Any one of those emotions and that type of story. can bubble up to the top at any time. There are unabashed CBC: I know E.C. Comics get into the blood of a whole lot of people who are unafraid to speak their minds. And, you know, individuals, obviously, who would follow. Who were some of there’s a freshness to that. I prefer that, you know. I’m much the folks at E.C. then, and certainly thinking about that company more of a very direct, straightforward person. So I prefer that now, that you just say, “Dammit, that is how you do a book”? type of honesty and interaction. For me, it’s a bunch of people Dan: You know, naturally, with E.C., it’s the strength of the art squeezed into a space together, and we got to figure out how to even more so than the story. If the art wasn’t strong, the stories work and get along. Which, I think, sometimes is the best way would be very simplistic. to work things out. CBC: Pedestrian? CBC: With you being able to squeeze into that space, what Dan: “Pedestrian” is a perfect word. But when you put guys squeezed out? What are things that at this point in your life, you like Graham Ingels on there… or any of these other incredible think back and say, “Man, that was something I wish we would artists… Jack Davis, Jack Kamen, and all those guys. There’s just have kept doing.” What’s been lost? not a bad artist in the bunch. Wally Wood’s in there. Every story, Dan: That’s a tough one for me. Here I am, still talking side by side, was so high-quality that it about comics and I’m in my 60s. Nothing got squeezed out. raised an expectation that, when you If anything would have gotten squeezed out, it would have start to get other anthologies happened a long time ago. that did not have that same CBC: Do you still see it as keeping you youthful in your life? strength, it would almost Or is it just a matter of work? disappoint. Dan: You know, it’s funny. When I left DC, the first thing I said You didn’t realize that was is, “Now I gotta figure out what to do when I grow up. Now I gota book on a pedestal, the rare ta be a grown-up.” I grew up in a neighborhood where a lot of occasion when that you can be my friends were firemen, gas company workers, electricians… that good. It’s hard to be that labor jobs. That was the expectation, even for the guy who went good all the time, across multiple to college for certain degrees. When the jobs opened up, they titles, which I also learned by reading jump for whatever job they can get. For me, I always had a and by working. plan that I wanted to do something different. I almost got into I have a running joke: the art I arguments with people when I said, “I’m going to college not wanted to steal from DC was Jack Da- to become a city worker.” (That’s not fair, but it was what I was vis art. Going through the archives, thinking.) But, the truth be told, there were things that were the things that weren’t returned interesting me and, later on, I had to take a path or, “I’m going and I found a piece of Jack Davis art to be an accountant.” that touched me when I was a kid. It I started as an accounting major and that flamed out was that piece and I was looking at it, spectacularly! Because I like numbers, but not those numbers. like, you know, honestly, “Is anybody I sort of fell into things that were more about what I didn’t watching me? Will anybody know if want to do than what I did want to do. So I always get my mind it’s gone?” Everything got returned open to trying different things. Because I’d rather experience to his family, but that was the something new and see if I like it, and not have life make that moment. decision for me. #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

E.C. Comics TM & ©William M. Gaines, Agent, Inc. Mets © Sterling Mets, L.P.

ending. And those are the types of things I tried to write. CBC: So you’re going for — lacking of a better way to phrase it — Feldstein and Kurtzman ways of that shock ending? Dan: Yeah, I love that. I mean, one of the first books I was ever exposed to as a really young kid, which probably explained a lot… There was an oversized publication of some of the best of E.C. Comics, you know, and it was one of the funniest things you’ve ever seen in your life. My sister had bought it because they were fans of E.C. And I was the one who read it over and over and over again, because I just devoured it to death. And between that and Twilight Zone, and everything else, I think that really just honed to that real love of that medium

Len Wein photo courtesy of Alan Light.

CBC: How did all these things that you grew up with make you who you were when you were finishing high school? Dan: Well, even during high school, I was trying writing and trying different things. I liked comics a lot. You know, I was part of a couple of clubs at school, putting together the yearbook, and different things. So I always had an interest in participating in print and print creation. An interesting story is: one of my sisters was good friends with Len Wein’s aunt. So 14-year-old Dan wanted to get insight into what it’s like to work for comics. She was so sweet to set me up with Len, and Len, God bless his soul, was most gracious to this 14-year-old. His closing line was, “Don’t get into comics kid. It’s gonna break your heart.” And, when you flash-forward, because Len became one of my good close friends, working invariably from my days in animation into my days in comics. I used to repeat that story to him, and he goes, “And it’s still true today, isn’t it?” Yeah, it’s still true. CBC: That is a heck of a good soul right there, he and Marv together, bless their hearts. That was a crew who drove things forward without half the world knowing what they moved forward. They were pretty amazing. Dan: I met Marv at ABC, and then Marv introduced me to Len, and Len became sort of an unofficial mentor to me over the years, which I appreciated. CBC: How did you perform in school? What were the things you had an aptitude for? Dan: My aptitude was for losing attention quickly. I’m a bit of a procrastinator, you know, a last-minute kid who loved to do things on the cusp. I’m a really good listener, but not a good studier. There were a lot of things that were learned last minute. Jamming it all in seemed to get me through it pretty well. But I did well in school. Which is good because, ultimately, you had to do well in school. In those days, you were judged. In those days, not everybody won a trophy. Let me say that the better you did, the better things were for you. CBC: You’ve already talked about your acumen at that time was for math. Where did you go to college? Dan: Brooklyn College. Two primary choices: affordable and walkable. CBC: You go because you’re going to become an accountant. Or, at least, that’s what it looked like it was going to be. How did the stark realities hit? Or did that take a while? Dan: It took about a year-and-a-half before it sunk in. I have a very dear friend of mine who I made friends in an accounting class, and he’s a natural accountant and I was anything but. And he still keeps the Macro Accounting textbook that I gave him the day I quit. I think I wrote in the book, “You’re natural and I’m not. Best of luck with it. I’m outta here.” CBC: So you get punched in the face by accounting and decide it’s time to move on. What did you do at that point in time? Dan: Well, you know, you hit the panic button because, not only did accounting go away, but all the credits associated went away, too. Then you found yourself in this little bit of a hole that you had to make up. So, strangely enough, I found what was called the Brooklyn College Broadcast News Institute. It was an eight-credit class for six weeks over the summer. I thought to myself, “If I can lock up eight credits in six weeks, I can make up for lost ground.” So I took the class for no other reason than just to make up credits. And, lo and behold, I found that I truly love working in TV. And then the thing started to roll from there. CBC: What was the first legitimate career work that you did right there? Dan: Well, while I was still in school, I got a part time job with CBS as a page. You know, one of the basic temp service jobs COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

inside the company. So you get a chance to come across a lot of things, work in a lot of different areas. My first steady page position was actually working on a show — and this is really for the East Coasters, between New York and DC — called the Warner Wolf Show. Warner Wolf was, for 40 years, a sportscaster. He had a half-hour, locally syndicated show, and I was one of the assistants on that for a while. Then I worked on a thing called CBS Cable, which was rather interesting. CBS was involved in cable early. It stopped because, at the time, they got a new president that said, “Nobody’s going to pay for TV. So let’s get out of this business.” CBC: Such foresight. Dan: But, at CBS, I did get a chance to meet [CBS President] Bill Paley, of all people. Just in passing, but I had a chance to sit and listen to him speak one time. And that, on the other side of the coin, was a true visionary. It was fascinating for me to hear him talk about things in the early ’80s, like cable, and high-definition television, and all these things that now are mainstays, but were just in very nascent stages in the early ’80s, when nobody could even understand how you can even implement such a thing, let alone it actually become the standard. CBC: So, as you’re beginning that process, you’re falling in love with it. Is that something where you’re thinking, “Okay, that’s my life’s pursuit from here on out”? Dan: Well, I had two great loves of my life: comics and cartoons. And so, it’s either I was going to try to find a path for publishing and find my way into comics (which I don’t know if I would ever get there or not). That was a fun goal. At least I had a North Star. I also loved animation, so I got involved in TV with the hope that maybe somehow I would be able to get a spot involved in Saturday morning television, which was something that I really enjoyed and wanted to participate in. CBC: Working in New York, paging at CBS: how does that transition into a path forward for you? Dan: Well, it’s not any path that anybody can follow. I have a Family Circus career: it’s this little dotted line that goes around in circles before you end up where you want to be. (I like to date myself with references like that.) CBC: I like it because I’m sitting here, thinking, “Damn, I am old, because I know exactly what he’s talking about.” Dan: I say this to people in programs: it’s not about planning what you want to do, but eliminating what you don’t want to do. I spent a lot of time eliminating things I did not want to do. During my time as a page, I was exposed to a lot of areas that I knew… news wasn’t for me, sales wasn’t for me… and I worked in affiliate relations and did a lot of things with the stations, and that was interesting working and helping the stations. But I felt very pigeonholed. So, from there, I found an opportunity to move into publicity, and I worked in public relations for several years for the New York-based soap operas. I never watched, but it was interesting, a brand-new learning experience. And I always thought that, if everything ended in

Above: At 14, Dan sought the advice of writer/editor Len Wein, seen above at the 1982 San Diego Comic-Con in a photo by Alan Light, who told the youngster to stay clear of a career in comic books. Wein warned him, “It’s gonna break your heart.” Below: Because tuition wouldn’t break the bank and its proximity, Dan chose to attend Brooklyn College, though a career in accounting wasn’t for him. Bottom: Dan’s road to Manhattan took him across the fabled Brooklyn Bridge.

Top: The birthday boy attired in a Bat-shirt and about to cut his Super-cake! Above: Ash #3 [May ’95], cover by penciler Joe Quesada and inker Jimmy Palmiotti. Dan helped out with Event Comics promotion. Below: Dan [center] with All My Children soap stars Felicity LaFortune and James Kiberd.

writing for comics. I worked with Dynamic Forces on a card set. I did a lot of things comic book-related. So I always kept a way to take my skills and apply them to things that I enjoyed, and also stay close to people I felt had ideas and input into areas that I wanted to go into. So I always searched those people out and tried to find out as much information as possible. I mean, while I had worked during the day at CBS, I had actually worked on special events, like the New Year’s Eve shows and the Thanksgiving Day parades. And I did them gratis, just because I wanted that experience of being a production assistant. And I knew nobody was going to hire me to fill a job if I didn’t have the experience at it. So I always found ways to create that experience. That helped me round it out so that, when I did go for those jobs, I knew what I was talking about, rather than just applying for something I had no experience to talk about. CBC: How was it, early on, partnering with Joe and Jimmy? Dan: Oh, well, Jimmy and I were friends in the mid-’80s. We actually lived in the same building, back in Brooklyn. And we met each other in a local comic shop. Jimmy was one of my main suppliers. When he got his comp boxes, he gave me the books he didn’t want. It was a big savings. (I think I still owe him thousands of dollars.) We struck up a friendship and, when he was starting up with Joe, I encountered a lot of the people in their circle within the comic industry, and that was a way for me to scratch that comic itch while I was still doing business elsewhere. CBC: You’ve known him for a long time. He was very gracious, talking about Paul Gulacy with me, several years ago. Another good guy, there. Dan: He’s one of these real good-hearted people in the comics industry. And honestly, you know, never has a bad word to say of anybody, and still enjoys what he’s doing. You know, which is great. CBC: You’ve already mentioned QVC. How the heck did that maneuver onto to the home shopping network take place? Dan: Well, it’s a weird thing because, like I said, my contact at the Home Shopping Network basically was a big comic fan. He was selling comics. But also he was an event programmer. So he did a lot of events. And when I was working in soap operas, I represented a lot of the soap talents, so a lot of talent that I represented I used to bring to the events he scheduled. And conversely then, he got me involved in some of the comic stuff. So we had shared interests, so they kept on overlapping as it went. And it was really a wonderful collaboration. Again, really, really good people, who unfortunately passed away way too young. Yeah, one of these really good guys. And we had a blast. Like I said, we have a lot of fun and always, you know, because he knew that anytime anything was about the comics, he’d give me a head’s up, and then I would help them out on the soap stuff whenever he needed it. So it was a good time. CBC: As far as the soap stuff you were doing, was it solely CBS or were you across the board with all shows? Dan: At that point, I was at ABC. I was at CBS from ’81 to ’85. One of the last positions I had at CBS, believe it or not, was working in publishing. CBS had a publishing unit and I was part of that unit. That unit moved. So then I started to look for a new job because I didn’t want to move with it, and then ultimately ended up at ABC and stayed there for 11 years. CBC: Were you a Susan Lucci guy? Dan: Yeah, I was representing Lucci. I was very proficient at holding her handbag, I want you to know. The funniest one was that one of the actors who played off of her was Walt Willey. CBC: Oh, yeah. Baritone-voiced Walt Willey. #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Ash TM & © the respective copyright holder.

television for me, at least I could put a publicity job on a résumé and apply that experience into any other business. So I thought, at least, I was developing a skill set that was applicable to any area other than the one I was working in at the time. It gave me some flexibility there. So, through the publicity department, I made several contacts and, after several opportunities, several tries, over several years, and being turned down several times, I ultimately wound up and got a job in the development for ABC Saturday morning line-up. And because of that, I had to move. So, in the mid-’90s, my family and I moved to California for the first time. It was, as I call it, my first tour of duty. I went to work on the ABC Saturday morning schedule. It’s something that probably was the culmination of about 10 years’ worth of trying and ultimately getting. I got out there, was there probably about six to eight months, and then Disney buys ABC, saying, “In about a year’s time, we’re going to close down your department.” I learned about the merger while I was picking up the keys to a house I just purchased, not knowing if I was going to be able to afford it. That was different. CBC: So you’re in a pursuit of that goal and it is the thing that you have a genuine heart and actual passion for. How did you find that in you to do it? Dan: Well, the interesting thing of what I did is: I found, in the other jobs that I had, a way to tie my personal interests to those positions. Even back when I worked in publicity for the soap operas, I was also helping out comic book companies. I was helping Jimmy Palmiotti and Joe Quesada set up Event Comics and do some of the publicity involved when they launched. I worked with a fella by the name of Dan Hall, who is very active at [cable home shopping network] QVC, during the days when they were selling comics on the channel. I was working with a guy by the name of Fred Greenberg, who ran a series of conventions. So I was doing some publicity for him and helping them write for several magazines. And I was actually

The Second Life of Doctor Mirage TM & © Valiant Entertainment, LLC. ReBoot TM & © the respective copyright holder.

Dan: Walt was actually a huge comic book fan. We used to travel together and he used to sketch, and we used to draw characters. I have a Walt Willey Thor sketch somewhere in my files. One of my stranger moments that overlap my work and my interests, was when we actually coordinated the appearance of Walt Willey in an issue of The Second Life of Doctor Mirage [#13, Dec. ’94]. So you can actually go back and find an issue of Doctor Mirage featuring All My Children’s Walt Willey. CBC: You moved out to California, you’ve got an organization saying, ‘Hey, we’re just getting bought out and great news, you probably will not have a job soon,’ and you’ve got a new house and house key in hand. That’s a holy sh*t moment. “What happens now?” Dan: Well, it was a holy sh*t moment. And then you get your white knight — you know, the end of the second act, when you think everything looks really bad — and then, all of a sudden, somebody comes in. The person that came in to pull me out of the fire, so to speak, was basically the founder of Mainstream Entertainment — the CEO, Ian Pearson. Ian was one of the key creators on ReBoot [animated TV series], was really the visionary behind pulling so much of that world together, the studio together, and really saw the potential of 3D animation before anybody knew what 3D animation was. He was the creator of the first computer animated characters ever. Because he created the two guys in the Dire Straits “Money for Nothing” music video, he parlayed that into building a studio and then ultimately building ReBoot, Beast Wars, and all that. So Ian and I became friends because, again, we spoke a common language, comics. He was a big comic fan. I was. We had common sensibilities and interests. They actually hired, at Mainframe, a number of comic artists to be designers there. They had Ian Gibson, they had Brendan McCarthy, they had Dean Ormston… So we could always talk a comic-book short hand. And he knew what I was doing with ABC, how I fought for ReBoot, trying to make it better. And then, ultimately, when they said I was losing my position, he goes, “Listen, we’ve got funding in Canada for a third season of ReBoot. Why don’t you guys join me and do the show we always wanted to do?” I jumped on it, needless to say. And so, I got offered the position, I wound up being story editor on that series and a couple other series. And then, ultimately, because my own personality and my own relationship with Ian, I wound up setting up a beachhead for Mainframe in Los Angeles, and running and opening an office for them there. And then I wound up running their development, getting involved in the sales and marketing. And, ultimately, we built the studio up to a studio that was actually, at its peak, producing 52 half-hours’ worth of television on a yearly basis plus a direct-to-video, which is unprecedented. And (just to give you an idea) that much computer animation we created at that moment was more than every of the other studios working in that field, combined. CBC: That’s a workhorse effort, because that much in digital was basically what Filmation was doing just in cell. So that’s hellacious. Dan: It was insane. It was really good. And let me tell you the most odd side-story with Mainframe: so, when I came on board, and they wanted me to open the facility, there was already somebody working there that wound up stepping away, and I wound up taking over the lead in the Los Angeles area. And they had rented out office space with grand ambitions, meaning they thought they were gonna be much bigger than they were, and I said, “We’re only gonna be a three-, four-man operation down here. We don’t need a lot of people. Everybody COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

should be in Vancouver. That’s the production; let us just do a small satellite.” And everybody agreed. We have a lot of space already rented. As the story goes, I wound up subletting the space to Marvel. So I was actually Marvel’s landlord for a period of time, when Marvel Entertainment was breaking free of New World, and they were creating their own studio and wanted to be in the area. They were moving out of office space and they wanted something close by so I wound up signing a contract and subletting space to Avi Arad. So I was his landlord, for a short period of time. At least Mainframe was… I just signed papers. CBC: You’re there for a pretty good stretch of time. What was it that was able to maneuver you from there to your next goal? Dan: I was at Mainframe from ’96 to basically 2001, beginning of 2002. What happened was, I started with the company, and like I said, we had this massive expansion. There were several things that occurred within the structure of the company. Ian wound up leaving and he was my main conduit. And, again, like everything, just the corporate structure changes, the investors change, they bring people in that have different vision than yourself. It wound up being, for lack of a better word, less fun and less focused on the creative and more about getting the job done. And the one thing that Mainframe always had (and one thing that was instilled in me is): the quality always came first. And something that I always felt very strongly about and that you have to make that work, regardless of the expense, at some point. So, needless to say, I saw myself winding down. And at that point, I was living in New Jersey with the family. I had an office in Los Angeles, and I was literally spending three weeks out of every month on planes flying. I was only home one week of the month. And that takes its toll. And then, as the story goes, I flew out of Newark Airport, on September 11, 2001. CBC: Dang. Dan: Yeah, I was on a plane

Above: Walt Willey starred in the TV soap opera, All My Children, and, with Dan’s help, became a character in this comic book. Below: Dan also helped develop the ReBoot kids show.

Above: Big Dan shows his son the wonders of comic books back in the day, while a soap opera plays on the living room TV — D.D. was a publicist for daytime serials, ya see… Below: One of Dan’s first comics-related jobs was to develop Metal Men as a Saturday morning cartoon, with the participation of DC publisher Jenette Kahn and writer/editor Louise Simonson. This is a panel by José Luis Garcia-López and Kevin Nowlan from Wednesday Comics #5 [Aug. 5, ’09] of the DiDio-scribed strip. Bottom: Presentation art by Tom Grummett for Dan’s mid-’90s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents TV animated show pitch.

was when I first joined DC. CBC: Well, hopefully he brought flowers. You were you already co-writing Superboy at that time, correct? Dan: Absolutely. People used to try to correlate my start at DC as vice president of editorial and my time as a co-writer of Superboy with Jimmy Palmiotti. But the two are completely exclusive of each other. To the point that it was, during my third or fourth interview with Paul, when I was sitting him in his office, he asked me, “Do you have any experience writing comics?” I said, “Paul, I’m actually writing Superboy.” Paul had this bookshelf of comics behind him, nicely alphabetized. He spins around, pulls off a Superboy, starts to read it, and then put it back on the shelf, and goes, “Damned if you weren’t.” CBC: And you and Jimmy had known each other, but how did you even tag-team with him writing Superboy? How did you actually become a DC guy, at that time? Dan: Jimmy was primarily a premiere inker at the time and was wanting to write. And he was having some success with it. He and I had done some pitches at Marvel for some of the 2099 books they were doing. We did a pitch over at DC, as well. And then Jimmy got the job writing Deadpool over at Marvel. Then the folks in DC called him up and ask, “Do you have anything?” So, as the story goes, we had printed a pitch for The Guardian that was kind of pretty far down the road, but then ultimately spiked at the very last minute. So we dusted off the copy of the Guardian pitch and he sent it back in, and notes came back saying, “We love the Guardian pitch. He’s good. Wonder if you could put other characters in here and see if we can put some super-hero in here that’s recognizable, so it can take off.” Because it was a new interpretation of the Guardian. So we put Superboy in the book and we turned it in. And they said, ‘This is great. It’s great with the cameo. We’d like Superboy to really be a co-star here. So you increase the amount of Superboy in this book and that way you get more of a balance between the new Guardian and Superboy. And you have more like a Superboy book.” I said, “That sounds great.” We went in and put Superboy in the book, then we sent it back in again, and then the next note came in, “We love everything about the story. We love all the Superboy stuff in the story. Could you take everything else out?” I remember calling Jimmy and asking him, “Are we the writers of Superboy?” His words were, “Just shut up and turn in the script.” CBC: Do you remember who the editor was who decided on “The Guardian: now with more Superboy”? Dan: Mike McAvennie. I think they were in the middle of a shift. And actually, they asked them to take over in the middle of a cross-over. And we just couldn’t do it. During the Joker’s Last Laugh cross-over, something like that. So we waited until that ran out and then we took over the book right after that. CBC: There’s nothing better than knowing that, regardless of what organization you work for, if you’re middle management, the people above you always screw things up, they flip-flop. Dan: They were dealing with a lot of cross-overs at the time, which resonated with me when I first started at DC, because I started to understand what an impediment that was, to any level of storytelling, on the talent, on their books, or whatever, when the momentum is running great with your story. So I always kept that in the back of my mind, that when I actually got a spot at DC, I was able to put a little bit of a moratorium on cross-overs. Let every character have a chance to breathe a little bit, so they can establish themselves before we started crossing them over again. CBC: So you’re working with Jimmy, sitting there with Paul, you’ve had a blind date… what actually was the job offered? #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Metal Men TM & © DC Comics. Dynamo TM & © Thunder Agency, LLC. Photo, presentation art courtesy of Dan DiDio.

at 7:30 in the morning out of Newark, flew into Toronto, didn’t know what happened. Well, I ended up getting stuck in Toronto for three, four days, because I couldn’t get out of the country, it was shut down, and locked in there. And, by the time I made it back, I realized, “Yeah, this thing’s got to change because of the flying and everything.” One of the things that I wanted to do is get back on the East Coast, and I had a good friend who was, at that time, president of Warner Animation, in Los Angeles. I went to meet him at dinner just to see what opportunities were out there and see what else I can do. And, rather than meeting him for dinner, he set me up to sit down and have dinner with [then-DC executive vice president] Paul Levitz instead. And, as the story goes, he sits me down next to Paul and he goes to Paul, “Paul, you’re looking for somebody with outside experience, but knows comics. Dan knows comics and he wants to get back on the East Coast.” He goes, “Why don’t you two have dinner? I have another engagement at a different table,” and he got up and left me and Paul sitting there. CBC: Man, how can you have a better blind date than that? Dan: I knew Paul because when I was at ABC Children’s Programming, I had built a block that I was trying to build for Saturday morning. And I had developed Metal Men as an animated series with [then DC Publisher] Jenette Kahn. The initial development was done with [writer] Louise Simonson, which was great. It was then moved over to the studio, which wasn’t as good as what Louise put together. And so I was thinking about doing that. I was working with [writer] Marv Wolfman in developing T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. I have art from that with Marv and a lot of test art we commissioned [artist] Tom Grummett to do, and I’ve got a lot of Tom Grummett’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. I was going to do a Metal Men/ T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents block on ABC Saturday morning that ultimately was killed when Disney came in and bought it. But I knew about that then. So, when I got to Mainframe, I tried to take the development. I went to Paul and I tried to get it for Mainframe, but I was never able to. Paul just didn’t want to parse it out at that point. So, you know, we never got a chance to work together. That was my first meeting with Paul, but I knew him from the comics. We wound up sitting, and I would say honestly, there was no position created; there was no position available. We were having this crazy little dance over about six meetings, until we finally figured out how for me to join the company. And then, ultimately, by February 2002

Superboy TM & © DC Comics.

Dan: There was the exploration for a position. What happened was, he knew he wanted to bring somebody in, but he didn’t know for what role and what spot. And we actually had… I want to say six interviews over a three- to four-month period of time… trying to figure something out. I had done some things, wrote some ideas for him, did some layouts with some things, gave observations about comics, and things like that, and we’re trying to figure it out. But, after several conversations, you know, we finally settled on a rather ambiguous title of vice president of editorial, which didn’t have much responsibility or authority. So it was really something that you had to basically create and make your own. And Paul gave me a lot of time in the first few months to really learn the company first, because I was learning a brand-new company and brand-new business. And then, from there, try to create the position. And ultimately, you know, we kept on trying to figure out how to make this particular function work until it evolved into something else. CBC: While you’re building that, what did that fully entail? What were some of the specifics that you had to do formally to really develop and create your own job? How did that work? Dan: Well, what happened was that I basically set up time with a number of the folks within the company. And I’d like to say… “ingratiate” is probably a nice way to put it…ingratiating myself into their process, so that I can learn it. Some people are very accepting, some people a little less accepting. And what I found is that I started to put pieces together, and my goal and responsibility was to find the level of coordination between the multiple imprints that DC was running at the time. So there will be better coordination between the talent and the release of books in that nature. There was a way so that everybody was pacing out the material very nicely. And it gave me a chance to delve into the production aspects, the marketing aspects, all the different parts of the company. I was able to really get a chance to sit down and speak with and learn about. And, in that process, see what worked and what didn’t work, what was being done just because of the way it was always done, and what was being done because it was a necessity to do, and trying to delineate between those two and maybe, in some ways, get to a point where you can rebuild a production line or production ideal to streamline it for wherever the business was at that moment. CBC: Who were the folks who were highly supportive or beneficial while you were working through that process? Dan: There were several people. Probably the person most beneficial for me was Terry Cunningham, the managing editor at the time. She really put up with me. And then, honestly, Paul set me up with [DC editor emeritus] Julie Schwartz, who gave me insight of editorial from his point of view, which was fascinating. And then I was working with [then-DC art director] Mark Chiarello, who was one of the real mainstays, one of those guys who was very influential. But there are a lot of other folks who were key people that I was dealing at the time with… with Paul, mostly. But [Vertigo editor] Karen Berger was great, [creative director] Richard Bruning was great. There’s a lot of people that were really great when I first got there, who were extraordinarily helpful in me learning about the company… Dave McPhillips, Joel Ehrlich… oh, my God, I can go on, endlessly. There’s a lot of folks that were a lot of fun. The interesting thing about it, most people felt that there was a need for change, they just didn’t know where it was going to come from. And so we’re all anxious to try to do something and get on board. You have to understand it here, too, because it was an interesting moment in time when I got there. When I came in, it was at the end of Jenette Kahn’s tenure, which was COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

not known to everybody at the time. She was taking a much more pronounced role with a lot of the studio material. And I had known Jenette from my time working at ABC when we were developing Metal Men. So it was glaring to me that, when I was interviewing, I didn’t see Jenette, because she was the one who I knew and I thought it would be nice to see her, but I never got a chance. Then, pretty much after I arrived, I found out that she was departing. So you felt this was a moment of change. I was stepping into a space where there’s the status quo, which has been existing for so long, that was about to be turned around a little bit. So there was a lot of change happening in that moment. And I got to be part of it. CBC: What were your thoughts when you were coming in? Because Jenette had just an incredible tenure. I hate to say, it doesn’t matter who you are as a change agent, at some point in time, you become the status quo after you’re done changing. What was it like company-wise… opinion-wise? You said people needed change… was it just because they were so used to the process they were under or just didn’t know how to do anything differently? Dan: They were extraordinarily efficient in the process of what they were doing. And there were a lot of decisions being made with the anticipation of a marketplace that hadn’t fully arrived yet. They were building a lot of things for the bookstore market, for a much wider branch, but, at that time, the direct market was rejecting them. And the direct market was, pretty at that point, maybe 80% of the business, maybe more, maybe around 70% of the business. So, because of that, they were staying away from their strength. You didn’t have a strong foundation, because you weren’t playing to where your strength was at the moment. You were building to a new marketplace that just hadn’t arrived yet. I mean, there was a lot of real high-end creative thinking going on at DC. I mean, naturally, with the advent of Vertigo, Paradox Press, a lot of things much more progressive than any other publisher at the time. But the truth is, the super-hero

Above: Even before he came on board as an executive at DC Comics, Dan was freelancing as co-writer on Superboy with Jimmy Palmiotti in the early ’00s. This cover of Superboy #100 [July ’02] is by the great Bill Sienkiewicz.

Below: Superboy-Prime gets miffed when he finds out that the folks at DC Comics are the ones controlling his existence, and he lets Dan DiDio know in this panel from Adventure Comics #5 [Feb. 2010]. Pencil art by Jerry Ordway, inks by Bob Wiacek and/or Ordway.

market was where the bread-and-butter was at. And that seemed to be in a slight decline. Just because Marvel was making a very big resurgence at that moment. You have to understand that my arrival was not just timed with Jenette’s departure, but also this renewed energy over at Marvel once Joe [Quesada] and [Bill] Jemma took over there, and they went very aggressively at DC. In some ways, my arrival was part of a response to that aggressive behavior at Marvel. CBC: This is hindsight, obviously, but what were the biggest ones that you had taking on that new role? Dan: The biggest one I had was that there was a very set system there, and it was very institutionalized, and had to get addressed in some way, shape, or form. And, at that particular moment, I was a party of one in my level of frustration and confusion. The hardest thing for me is: I knew something has got to be changed, but I was also so new to the business that I couldn’t exactly verbalize what needed to be fixed and describe what was broken. I just knew it had to be changed. So I had to learn the dialogue, I had to learn the language of DC, in order to be able to get everybody directly. And that took a little while. And it was frustrating for a lot of folks along the way, you know, because I wasn’t able to properly express myself. So I might not have been able to get to a point as quickly as I should have and as clearly as I could. And that frustrated me probably as much as it frustrated people. CBC: When you’re saying about trying to ingratiate yourself into departments, needing to know the language, as that began to take a foothold for you, what steps did you take to create synergy and motion? How did you do that? Dan: Well, first thing I was going after was that there was a lot of energy being put into [high-end books not of the main line]. What I mean by that is: prestiges were very big, original graphic novels, a lot of things that were off-schedule, high-end, high-priced, that sort of just meandered on a production schedule, rather than having set and firm delivery time as it would be on a monthly schedule. And all the better talent was on those projects, easily. Because what would happen is that they would take on these books at a better rate that was gonna be on better paper with no deadlines. Why wouldn’t anybody do that? So they would have that book in their schedule, but… still consider taking on other work… “Give me a cover, give me a one-shot, give me something else,” or they push the DC stuff aside and jump over to Marvel. Because Marvel presented their material with a sense of urgency. DC material wasn’t urgent. And, as I would say, we used to feel like we were pushed aside. Even though we were paying our top rate, we were still the second choice, even though we should have been in the first position because they approved working with us first. So we had to change that relationship with the talent to prioritize material. We also had to basically realize that the urgency of building these books had to be put on a periodical mindset. That’s where the money needed to be spent. And — I say this always — this is where, you know, in a year’s worth of time, once I tried to implement that schedule, once I understood what I was trying to do, and after my first year there, I was at a crossroads of whether or not I was going to stay or go. But I felt more invested than just spending a year. I presented a rather long manifesto of what I believe would be necessary to refocus and re-energize the production and content of an upper line for the DC Universe. Because I realized also that, you know, I was supposedly splitting time between (in theory) Wildstorm, Vertigo, and even MAD. Those were all the different imprints. But the reality is 80% of your time is spent on the DC Universe. And when the DC Universe is working, all the other pieces fall in line. I mentioned that Vertigo had a very clear vision of what they wanted to be under Karen Berger, but also kind of clear direction of what they were prior to joining DC and what they were within DC, yet were still figuring some things out there. But the reality is the DC Universe had to work before everything else could work. So all of my energy went into figuring out the DC Universe. I presented it to Paul, I gave him a schedule of what it should be. And at no point of that schedule I gave him was I a part of it. I’ll be honest with you, I wasn’t there. I was expecting to depart. I was already making calls to see if I can start talking to people to get back into animation. Paul, to his credit (or craziness, whichever side of the fence you fall on), said, “I’ll support this plan for the most part.” He reads about 75% of it, maybe even 80–90% of it, and he goes, “With one change.” And I go, “What’s the big change?” And he goes, “You 42

got to put yourself in that executive editor position.” And, you know, honestly, I was stunned. Because, I was, in my mind, still the outsider and there was just a portfolio of people who held those positions who were so incredible and so varied and so strong that, you know, to follow in those types of footsteps is kind of crazy. But, on the other side, if you went to 10-year-old Dan DiDio and asked him what he wanted to be when he grew up, this would be one of those jobs! CBC: Astronaut and firemen weren’t happening that day. Dan: I could never be a fireman. Their test was too hard for me. I knew people who took it! So it was pretty amazing. I stepped into a job that I know I was probably not prepared for, but I had to make sure everybody else didn’t see that. I worked hard at that. We did some restructuring around the team, and I had a crew that was ready to listen, which was good. But we had a lot of habits we had to break and new habits we needed to create. We had to get some “new,” had to get a little fire back in our step. But we had some fun doing that, that’s for sure. But it was a battle. Because you can see there’s a lot of mistakes made along the way in the beginning. But then we had this little thing called Hush. We have this little book called Hush, and I knew Jim [Lee] and I knew the guys at Wildstorm from my interactions for the first year. I found them to be very interesting. One of the things I loved about Wildstorm was the visual look of everything. While some of the stories or characters weren’t resonating with me, these guys had such great art and such great visual sense that it overtook the story sense because the books just floated off the page, both in color and style, and things like that. And I knew that we needed to bring some of that over to the DC Universe. And we used to joke with [Wildstorm editor] Scott Dunbier, “Who are you trying to steal now?” In those days, when I need something, I’d call the family. [laughs] CBC: “There’s only one Godfather, Scott. Everyone kisses the ring.” [laughter] Dan: The interesting thing is that Mark Chiarello is the one credited for bringing Jim Lee and [Hush writer] Jeff Loeb together. And Mark, while being, during my tenure, the art director, he was also one of the best editors on the floor, if not the best editor on the floor. As I used to say, he was classically trained by [editor supreme] Archie Goodwin. And he and [editor Mike] Carlin probably were the ones who had the real experience, the handed-down knowledge that came from the earlier days. Mark put together Jim and Jeff, for what would have been a Long Halloween-style mini-series, meaning better paper style, cardstock, a little off pricing, and all that. CBC: It was totally brilliant to keep it in the continuity, too. Dan: And that was all Jim. He basically said, “No, I want to be the Batman artist.” And they go, “But you’re not gonna get a #1 if do Batman this way.” He said, ”I don’t care, because if you want to be the Batman artist, you have to be on the main book. So I want to be on the main book.” That’s what he told everybody. So we moved that over, but not only does it move over and A++ talent on the main line, it brings the sense of, “Well, I need a good paper stock for reproducing my art, too.” So we sought to upgrade the look of the comic. That was an ongoing fight from the moment I started at DC. That became almost a running joke — speaking for myself — was I kept on trying to find ways to upgrade the paper every which way possible. And Jim was able to get that upgraded paper. So we got upgraded paper. We’ve got Jim Lee and Jeff Loeb on a book on the main line, and this is gonna come out monthly, because we had six books in the can already. So we knew we’re going to be able to have at least six months lead-up, which was great. Jim was on track for the rest of the run. We renewed a relationship that was broken with Wizard magazine. And, as much as people hated Wizard, they weren’t taste-makers, at the time. Jim had a very good relationship with them and it was important to rebuild that relationship, and — lo and behold — Hush takes the world by storm. And all the mistakes disappear because everybody sees the success of that. And then, all of a sudden, you start to get a little bounce in your step. Then Geoff Johns, who at the time was just hungry to attack, talks about Green Lantern and about bringing Hal Jordan back. And now we’re starting to break taboos. Okay, you know, we put glossy paper and Jim Lee on Batman. We blew that book out of the water. And now we’re going to bring back the dead character, and change some old continuity, and fixing things. And we’re starting to cook. And you could feel the momentum starting to change at that moment. And, all of a sudden, you get a few hits under your belt. You have Batman, #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Batman, Countdown to Infinite Crisis © DC Comics.

Green Lantern, and then we come out with Identity Crisis, which catches everybody off guard in a type of story not expected from the DC Universe. Now, the DC Universe is becoming a little more dangerous place, because you’re not really sure where it’s going. And, in my mind, that’s a good thing. Because now you can’t anticipate the stories, you got to actually go out and buy them and read them to find out what happened. Now the ball’s rolling. What I used to do with Paul, every year or twice a year, I used to build a manifesto, and I would spend all my time talking to the editors and talent, and listen to what everybody wants to work on. I’d sit there and make notes, make notes, make notes. And then I would build this manifesto of this, quote-unquote, storyline that drives the DC Universe for a year. And I said, “Paul, this is what we want to do. Here’s what characters and the event.” And I will present it all to him, and he would say, “Yay, no, yay, no, fix, yes…” And, ultimately, we would have a working document that would be the blueprint of the DC Universe for a year. And we handed that out to everybody. And everybody would work to that story. How the stories were getting there, that was something for them to figure out on their own. But the overarching story was constructed to take us from January to December. And then, every year, we’d pretty much do that. And it’s interesting to see those documents about where we started, and, ultimately, where we finished. But as I said, I wanted to make sure we, number one, found a way to be successful by building a strong foundation, making sure each one of those characters stood on their own legs. And I was looking at books, and characters, and launches, and trying to find out which characters should be out there. I remember saying to somebody, “We should have a Firestorm book because Firestorm was able to support a series for over 100 issues. So there’s got to be an audience for him somewhere. We should be attacking that base.” We should probably be bringing them back in. A lot of what we were doing, in the early days, was bringing back lapsed fans, with the hope that we’re bringing in new fans with them, as people saw and talked through it. It was a more slow and incremental increase, you know. The edgier books, the books on the corners, never really caught fire, but the main center of the line, it started to take hold again. I always say this: I credit the writers from the start, who were Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka, and Judd Winnick, for really carrying the DC Universe up that hill. They really put the comic line on their backs. And, even when I have resistance from the editors, I knew that these guys were going to be able to carry the books to the top of the hill. And what was interesting about Greg, Geoff, and Judd, I think at one point, they were associated with 15 titles. 15 titles! It was Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Batman, Adventures of Superman, Titans, Outsiders, Wonder Woman, Justice League, and a bunch of peripheral things there, too. And what was fascinating about it was, because they were working so well together, and they knew what the blueprint was, because they were the ones who were the chief architects behind that blueprint, they were able to move that story right through the middle of the line. And that was great. Because, ultimately, that’s how you’re able to build this more cohesive universe, when you have writers conversing with each other, and sharing with each other, and respectful of each other. And, when you have that, that’s what gets the ball rolling. And what’s better is that, when the other writers and other artists see that success, they start to get involved, too. Because they want that success for their book. They see something COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

working and they want to buy into what works. They think it’s going to elevate them, which is great, because that’s the whole point of it. And that’s when everything started get really interesting. And, even though I was only there for a bit of time, I always consider Countdown to Infinite Crisis [May ’05] my first book. In my mind, you know. When I first came on board, I edited Lobo and that was a mishmash, at best. I was learning as I was going. But, for me, Countdown to Infinite Crisis is what I call my first title, and really the flagpole that this is the DC Universe that you’ve got to be paying attention to. TO BE CONCLUDED

Coming Next Issue:

In our final segment of Greg Biga’s in-depth interview with the creative force, Dan shares about the remainder of his nearly two decades with DC Comics, and, during the last 10 years, his stint with fellow co-publisher, Jim Lee. Plus, DiDio’s post-DC era!

Top: Cover art sans trade dress of the second printing of Batman #608 [Dec. 2002], pencils and inks by Jim Lee., the first chapter of the “Hush” story arc, which proved a game-changer for DC Comics. Above: Dan felt he first made a significant impact at DC with the one-shot Countdown to Infinite Crisis [May 2005]. Cover art by Jim Lee and Alex Ross. 43

comics in the library

Of Beowulfs and Captains

The monster in Mr. Grinder’s neighborhood plus Cap and Bucky meet WWII’s Ghost Army and almost single-handedly changed how other people regard the Beowulf saga to this day. We have two brand-spanking-new (well, from 2023) graphic That man was J.R.R. Tolkien, author of The Hobbit and novels to chat about today. First is an American publication of The Lord of the Rings trilogy. He was also (while doing all that a Euro-graphic novel adaptation of the centuries-old legend of fiction writing, of course) a scholar. His genius was to rediscover Beowulf. Bea Wolf is by American Zach Weinersmith and French the sheer wonder and beauty of the overall tale and to ignore artist Boulet. It refigures the myth with the warrior Beowulf the nit-picking of academia. The lasting effect of his essay, represented by the bear-costume girl, Bea Wolf; the Viking “Beowulf: The Monster and the Critics,” was to restore the longhouse becomes a kid’s elaborate treehouse; and, in the timeless tale for the people it was intended for: the audience monster Grendel role, is middle-aged, getting-old Mr. Grinder. who always loves a good and bloody story. The conflict here is that kids just wanna be kids and Mr. Grinder Other versions of the legend that I strongly recommend would like them to keep off his lawns, stay out of that annoying include the adult novel, Grendel, by John Gardner, which is a treehouse next door, and, most especially, grow the hell up and great modern take on the story, as well as the best of the films quiet the hell down. dealing with the legend: the 2007 animated Beowulf, with a Boulet’s illustrations for this child’s version of an epic script by Neil Gaiman, and the extraordinary, largely overlooked are absolutely delightful. Character designs, 1999 film, The 13th Warrior, adapted from Michael Crichton’s novel, Eaters of the Dead, starring Antonio Banderas. identifiable kids, and the like flow smoothly. The story, like its medieval source material, is The second book is by one of the hottest authors currently told in verse, which ranges from excellent to ac- working in children’s literature. Alan Gratz has a solid dozen ceptable. But, for my taste, it has two crippling novels, often dealing with war-related themes, that are conaspects to it. stantly being checked out from the library I oversee. His newest First is the sheer length of the adaptation. It is his first graphic novel, Captain America: The Ghost Army. runs 183 pages of occasionally awkward verse The story is set in World War II, with Cap and Bucky encounand art. That’s a looong story. Worse, though, is tering the American “ghost army,” a tactical deception unit put that, while it has a great opening and a great together by the U.S. Army to deceive German units into thinkending, the long middle section sags, both in ing the Allies have more troops in an area than they actually do. being interesting and in the story’s ability to Unfortunately, the Germans have their own special unit in the be coherent. area, one composed of intangible German ghosts from the first Still, there is much here to admire: GrindWorld War — intangible, that is, until they need to strangle G.I.s. They do have a flaw, however: like vampires, they can’t cross er’s look, descriptions, and actions are perfect for a meanie man who hates children, despises running water, which leads Cap to believe that mystic forces of sorcery are involved in their creation. trash, noise, and fun, and simply wants those He’s right. A young, insecure Baron Mordo is behind the damn kids next door to become mature. I like ghostly dead men, as he is also being tormented by German the fact that, after he cleans up the treehouse, High Command and his own nagging ghost, his late grandfathe walls are festooned with posters reading ther. Cap and Bucky are also being aided by Dum Dum Dugan “Brush Your Teeth”, “I Love Education” and (although neither Sgt. Fury nor any of his other Howling “Healthy Vegetable(s) Is Good for You”. One of Commandos appear). Mordo recruits a maimed Allied turnGrinder’s worst punishments is turning some coat, one Anthony Baskerville, to help in stopping the Allied of the children into ever-texting hairy teenagers or middle-aged, anxious adults, angered by advance, while he concentrates on contacting a mystic god he’s only ever heard of, by the name of Dormammu, to aid in his everything they read on the internet. revenge schemes. For this reader, the best aspect, however, The rest of the book shows the efforts of Cap, Bucky, Dum about the book was the chapter by WeinerDum, both living and dead local members of the French resissmith detailing the history of the Beowulf tance, and the U.S. tactical deception team, who use holograms legend at the end of the book. The epic poem concocted by Stark Industries consisting of apparitions of such has been around, one way or another, for at future Marvel characters as Fin Fang Foom; the Monster of least 12 centuries, but has never really been Frankenstein; Werewolf by Night; It, the Living Colossus; Mana popular story until, near about, the last one Thing; and Simon Garth, the Living Zombie, among others. hundred years. And the reason for it recently The art is supplied by Brent Schoonover, who does a good having inspired at least three modern movies, many prose volumes on the subject, as well as job overall, although, like a lot of younger artists, he seems to have no ability to draw WWII U.S. Army helmets at all. This lots of comic adaptations, is the efforts of one man, who fell in love with the story and wrote a is a good solid story, if not particularly ground-breakhistory-changing essay in 1936 on the legend ing, and I think my school’s readers will enjoy it. by RICHARD J. ARNDT

Above: Detail from Bea Wulf, art by Boulet. Below: The cover to Weinersmith and Boulet’s charming adaptation of the Beowulf epic poem, Bea Wulf [2023]. Bottom: Captain America: The Ghost Army [’23], art by Brent Schoonover.

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Bea Wolf TM & © Zach Weinersmith and Boulet. Captain America: The Ghost Army TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

Perry White TM & © DC Comics. Dateline Hembeck TM & © Fred Hembeck. COLORS BY: GLENN WHITMORE

All characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Thomas John Palmer [b. July 13, 1941– d. August 18, 2022], better known

“But tell me something I don’t already know,” I can hear many of you saying.

to comic book fans as the extraordinarily talented inker, TOM PALMER, was

Well, allow me to explain that, despite his renowned status as one of the world’s

Most of those years were spent as yeoman delineator at Marvel Comics, where

Tom was also the humblest, always expressing awe at the artists over whose

among the very best in his field during a career that spanned over five decades. he was most recognized for adding his peerless touch to work by Gene Colan, John Buscema, and Neal Adams. His rich, lush, evocative work, particularly as inker on notoriously hard-to-ink Colan in Tomb of Dracula between 1972–79,

added a luster that elevated such already excellent artwork to sheer perfection.

best inkers — an alchemist, if you will, who turned India ink into liquid gold —

work he toiled, and gratitude at making a living in an art form he so loved. But

he was also a man very reluctant to have a spotlight shine on his achievements, shy even. So, while I wish Tom lived to see this, I am proud to feature such a

wonderful, affectionate tribute to the man by my pal, Greg Biga. — YE EDITOR.

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

In full transparency, this feature was never meant to be a collection of

Walter Simonson, Howard Chaykin, Jim Steranko, Roy Thomas, Klaus Janson,

— were spent with him being genuinely delighted over the notion he was to

Khoi Pham, Sal Buscema, Ron Garney, Howard Mackie, Greg Wright, Neal Adams,

phone conversations with Tom Palmer — who sadly passed away two years ago be celebrated in this issue of Comic Book Creator as a living legend. Tom was

my friend, and I am humbled that he allowed me to be his and to be the teller of tales of his life. From his unique childhood until his last days, Tom Palmer exhibited class, quality, and perseverance. Thank you for everything, Tom.

Photos courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

Heartfelt nods of gratitude for their words of appreciation regarding Tom to

testimonials to a fallen giant of the comic art world. Rather, my regular Friday

HOMETOWN KID Thomas John Palmer was born a scant five months prior to the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor, the calamity which pulled the United States into the already raging World War II. Being a wartime baby was not the only interesting aspect of Palmer’s life. There was also, specifically, a somewhat uncommon age difference between him and his dad, Leonard Daniel von Palmer. Tom was the last child born to Leo’s third wife. When Tom arrived, his father was 64 years old. With the first wife, his father had five offspring, three boys and two girls; none with the second; and then three with his last spouse. The boy had half-brothers and sisters from Leo’s first bride, who were frankly old enough to be his own parents, and nieces and nephews around the same age as him. “My father was born in 1867,* in [Danzig] Germany. His sister was already here and married to a man who had a German restaurant up on 86th Street [in Queens, New York]. You needed a job to come over in those days. So my father came over in 1893 and he had a job waiting for him at that restaurant. I know he was naturalized [in 1903], but I don’t think my father ever talked about Germany. He never spoke any German. During World War I, my mother said, he’d meet some people that were from Germany, and he’d say ‘Don’t talk to me in German. Talk to me in English.’” Tom continued, “I found out later, from my older half-brother John, that my father lied about his age at some point, so he could get insurance because he had these five children. His second wife became ill, something with her heart.” [A death notice relates that Frances Butz Palmer died on October 16, 1928, of pneumonia.] “Because my mother never talked about this, I had to put the pieces together later on. I assume her parents were gone when she came to live with her relative and my father. She was there to take care of the kids because my father’s wife was bedridden. My dad’s wife’s name was Frances and that was my mother’s name also… My mother was young, she was born in 1903. And, so out of propriety, I guess, my father and my mother got married [on October 10, 1929, two weeks to the day before “Black Thursday,” the start of the Great Depression]. “My father was making phonographs. You wound them up, as there was no electricity, and it was the cabinet that gave the sound. He opened up a cabinet store and then the Depression hit, and he lost his business. So then he went into a different business, doing construction, putting in new stoops on houses, and * The official record has Leo Palmer born in Danzig on Oct. 30, 1877, but Tom says, according to a half-brother, his father fibbed about his age to get insurance, so that’s suspect. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

Bob McLeod, Pat Olliffe, Butch Guice, Graham Nolan, J.M. DeMatteis, Lee Weeks, and, especially, Tom Palmer, Jr. (who was an enormous help gathering art for this piece). Note that most conversations with peers took place before Tom’s

passing. And, finally, I could not be more appreciative of Ann Palmer, Tom’s wife and lifelong love, for her involvement in this celebratory effort. — G.B.

doing woodwork. And then he got into architecture as the Depression went on. The house we were in was one big house. He renovated the top floor and made an apartment upstairs, so he could get rental income. Anything to stay afloat.” Tom learned a thing or two from his much-older pop. “He was a talented guy, in that sense. And I always remember that: keeping yourself moving, whatever you can do to make a buck. He wasn’t stuck with one thing. He came over as a cabinetmaker and then he went to architecture school. When I knew him as a little kid, he had a big drawing table on his sun porch, and he’d be laying out blueprints of remodeling of houses and storefronts, and everything else. “My father and my mother had one son, William, and then they had another son, Ronald, who picked up some illness in the hospital. He came home and wound up dying around two weeks after he was born. I never knew about that. My mother just went into a blank, dark hole after that. My mother wouldn’t talk about any of this when I was a kid, so I knew nothing until I got older. My half-brother John, who was the oldest, told me all about it. Here I was, an adult at the time, and I never even heard [Ronald’s] name. My mother never spoke about him. She never even mentioned his name. “After some time passed, I guess my father said, ‘Do you want to try again?’ So guess who was born…? Me. When it came time for my mother to have me, she would not go to the hospital because of what happened to Ronald. Since my father had been doing work for… St. Pancras Church, in Glendale [in Queens], he had an in with them and they got my mother into a sanitarium for nuns instead of going through a regular hospital. And that’s where I was born. “My mother would say, ‘Remember when you were born.’ I was born on a Sunday morning… ‘The church bells were ringing.’ I was born and I survived. I had all these half-brothers and sisters and they’re all having children around the same time I was born, so I have nieces and nephews who are the same age as me or even older than me, if you can imagine that. I grew up with a lot of people in my family that I didn’t know exactly who they were or how we were related. I just thought they were, like, relatives that were older than me.” Facing a childhood infirmity, Tom found a creative outlet. “When you’re an artist, it’s got to be in you before you know what you want to be. I think seeing my father working on his blueprints… He had an apron and he had my mother make me an apron when I was little. He’d be drawing these things out; he would draw a house, he was drawing a lot of things. That was probably the beginning. That’s what led me into loving to draw.” 47

Previous spread: On left page is Tom and his children, Jean and Tom, Jr., during a late ’70s visit to the National Cartoon Museum, in Port Chester, New York. The Palmers are surrounded by costumed Marvel hero performers. Right page features young Tom on crutches during his childhood malady. This spread: Above, from left, is Tom’s father and Tom; with his mother and older brother. Inset right, Tom as high school senior. Below is photo of Glendale, Queens, in 1961, looking down 65th Street toward Myrtle Avenue, with map overlay. Next page has advertising artwork at top by Frank J. Reilly (pictured), as well as Tom’s recreated E.C. Comics covers which he drew and colored as a teenager for coverless but treasured copies.

trading out those comics at the time which allowed Tom to be introduced to great comic art. Specifically, for Tom, it was the E.C. Comics of the early 1950s which helped spur his lifelong love for the art of Jack Davis, Wallace Wood, and Al Williamson. “My brother had comic books all over the place,” he said. “And I used to take them down the avenue to a little store that, if you brought in a comic book, you could swap for another comic book or two. I went in and what caught my eye was Weird Science, Frontline Combat, and Shock SuspenStories.” Tom continued, “I look back on my upbringing, even though it was not the usual upbringing, with [an elderly] father. When I would be playing in the street, when I was younger, and my father would come to the front door and he’d whistle, ‘Come eat,’ the other kids used to say, ‘Who was that, your grandfather?’ And I’d say, ‘No, that’s my father.’ I didn’t know [any different]. You just grew up with what you’ve got. “I was still on crutches when he died. My mother said to watch my father [who was sitting] on the bed, because my mother had to go into the kitchen to do something. I guess he was not that comfortable sitting on the bed, he was swaying. I LEGG—CALVÉ—PERTHES remember that he was just sitting there, looking at me. I never “But then I had a problem with my hip when I was in the third thought about it until I got a bit older — what was or fourth grade in school. I was limping a lot, so my parents going through his mind at that point? He took me to the doctor, and they found that I had this softness had raised a whole other family, all the of the hip that was making me limp. I found out later it was different children he had. And he a disorder called Legg—Calvé—Perthes disease [a childhood bone condition]. I had X-rays taken and I went to an orthopedic knew, at that point, that he wasn’t doctor, and he said, ‘There’s really nothing you can do. You just going to live for much longer. “My father was in his 60s when have to stay off the foot. You have to stay off that leg. You can’t walk on it.’ So I had to walk on crutches for four years. I couldn’t he had me and he was in his 70s when he passed away. I had to play baseball, I couldn’t do anything, so I used to sit down in find my way because my dad died my backyard, and I used to draw. when I was young. I probably could “I’d actually draw comic books and draw everything. I got used to keeping myself entertained by drawing. I think that was have used more help. I might have gone to college, but when it got to be a big step in my growing into being an artist. I wasn’t bored. I wasn’t bored at all. I would do my own comics, but sadly, I threw my teen years, my father was gone. No one really tried to step in to say you should so many away. You get older and go, ‘What is this crap?’” Tom’s older sibling Bill would never let his kid brother look be going to school. I had to do it. I needed — and was always looking for — father figures. Whether it was John through his comics. However, one day, they got into a physical Buscema, or if it was [art instructor] Frank Reilly, there’s always fight where Tom was hurt. His brother felt guilty, and wanting somebody that I was looking for, an older mentor I could follow to keep Tom from telling their parents about the fight, Bill and I could listen to. I had older brothers, but they had their gave Tom his comic books to keep him mum. It was through own families.”

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Above three photos courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

GLENDALE BUDDIES Growing up in the neighborhood of Glendale, in the New York City borough of Queens, was a fulfilling proposition for Tom, especially when his health improved. During his teens, he began making close connections through friendships. “My teenage years were rambling once I started walking. As I was going into high school, I got off the crutches. That was a big deal because I was on crutches for years. I remember, when I was first able to walk again, and I was on Cooper Avenue and I’m hearing stuff going through the trees. This ‘swish-swish-swish’ noise. I saw this guy, he’s got a homemade slingshot and he’s shooting ball bearings through the trees. And I’m saying, ‘What the hell was this?’ Well, we went on to be the best of friends for a lifetime. He was just a rapscallion; he was always doing something that was adventurous. There wound up being a bunch of us, each of a different nationality. You know, Germans, Italians, Irish, and Asian. My Italian friends called me ‘Palmeri,’ like I was an honorary Italian. But it was a great way of growing up. We just had a good time together. “This guy, Bob, he was the burly one, he kind of took care of me. If there was some reason we had to run from

Faux E.C. Comics cover renditions by Tom Palmer. Courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

something, he would grab hold of me and pull me along because I couldn’t run fast because of my bad hip. It was just the camaraderie that you have through your teenage years and then you get out of high school and then it’s a whole different world.” That “whole different world” included Tom lending his artistic talents to some teenage shenanigans. “I used to be able to forge a driver’s license by using typewriter carbon paper. If you lay that down and you copied very carefully — which I was good at — you could take a stamped seal off of an existing license, and then put it on the sheet underneath, and then transfer it all very carefully, you could go and fill out a form and get a vehicle. Oddly enough, it wasn’t for guys to drive, it was so guys could get a drink who were 16. I was doing this and getting $25 apiece. But it was done innocently enough.” That nefarious business, however, wasn’t what put art school into Tom’s mind. That came from goofing off at work. “I remember, the first job I had, I’m sitting around drawing pictures, making funny pictures of people, and one of the guys came up and said, ‘Gee, you know, you’re really good. Why don’t you go to art school?’ And it was like a light bulb went on in my head. ‘Yeah, why don’t I go to art school?’” LEARNING FROM THE GREATEST Tom’s artistic journey began, in unfulfilling fashion, at Manhattan’s famous School of Visual Arts (renamed thus in 1956, from the Cartoonists and Illustrators School, the institution co-founded by Burne Hogarth). “I liked painting. First, I went to the School of Visual Arts and took their painting classes. There was nothing for me. The teacher just walked around and looked at what you were doing. There was no tutoring, there was nothing spoken about, no instruction.” Unsatisfied with what Visual Arts had to offer, Tom sought a different school and learned of Frank J. Reilly, an illustrator who had apprenticed with Dean Cornwell, taught at the Art Students League of New York, and COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

who recently established his own self-named art school. “Reilly had a program of learning color that focused on hue, value, and chroma. And damn it if you didn’t learn how to paint. You learned all the steps to painting. That fascinated me and drew me in even further. I remember, for some early class projects that you did at home, he had a line of paints with nine neutral values of gray, each with a number. You set your palette up based on those grays. Reilly had a drawing of an overhead view of a house on a road with a tree and the shadows on the ground, and the numbered values that it would be on a sunny day. Now we changed the value numbers, and it was a cloudy day. And then the values changed again for nighttime. I sat at home and looked at this thing and these pictures would emerge. It did look like a sunny day, a cloudy day, and at night. And that just sold me on how it was not a trick, but that there was a lot more to learn about color. And it was a lot more than color; it’s a lot more than just squeezing the paint out. “Reilly had a very structured process. His saying was that he could teach anybody to draw and paint as long as they were willing to learn. When I got into the business, I went to the Society of Illustrators, I was sitting at the bar one day at the Society, and I was new, and somebody noticed that I was there and asked, ‘Where’d you go to art school?’ So I said Frank Reilly. He said, ‘Oh, the mathematician.’ I was insulted, but also amused, at the same time.” Reilly’s classes at the Students League had long waiting lists in the years following World War II, lists that kept artists, including John Severin and Colin Dawkins, from gaining entry in a reasonable duration. But, by the time Tom enrolled at Reilly’s new school, he

Top: Pennsylvania Railroad, “This Fighter Weighs in at 8 Tons” (1944) Reilly - 011

was surprised to have immediate enrollment. “I was kind of shocked. I just walked in. He was on 57th Street in the Steinway Hall building. When I walked in, he had prints of J.C. Leyendecker and Dean Cornwell. “Cornwell especially, he became my next favorite, after Norman Rockwell. The school just spoke to me, I had to go there. And it was a good move, because I got to meet a lot of people who I would not have ever really met otherwise. I think that the School of Visual Arts was for the people who were just looking for a hobby. (Not all of them, of course.) But Reilly didn’t teach anything beyond artwork. You can’t get a diploma after four years that says that you’re an artist. I think that’s why you have to find your way by yourself. You can’t get a diploma and become an artist. Unless you’re one in a billion.” While learning from Reilly, Tom was able to spend time in instruction with one of his greatest artistic heroes, the

PILGRIMAGE TO STOCKBRIDGE At the school, Tom refined his craft and went to get work from various agencies. “I got wound up into Norman Rockwell. I just loved his stuff. I wanted to paint covers like he did for The Saturday Evening Post.” Tom was so motivated by the work of Norman Rockwell that he took a mini-pilgrimage in 1960, while still a student at the School of Visual Arts, to visit with the iconic American illustrator. That story is recounted here by Tom’s wife, Ann, as she also * Unfortunately, James Bama was one of several deaths in the art made the journey with her future husband. community that occurred during my conversations with Tom. Follow“First of all,” she told their son, Tom, Jr., “it was the first time ing the announcement of Bama’s passing, on April 24, 2022, Tom I played hooky from school, but my parents knew about it. emailed me: “James Bama had many admirers and I was one of them. Tom wrote a letter to Norman Rockwell and his secretary got Going to miss seeing his work!” back to us. He invited us up, so we drove up to Stockbridge, Massachusetts. I forget how long it took, but it was a long drive from Queens. “We rode around town for a while looking for Rockwell’s studio. Tom wouldn’t stop to ask for directions, and we finally found some man that told us that [Rockwell’s] house was around the corner. We went up to the house and he invited us in and started to show us the studio, where he did his work and everything. He had a portrait he was painting up on his easel, I can’t remember what it was exactly, but it was very beautiful. You’re seeing Norman Rockwell, a famous man, an artist, and he’s telling you little things about what’s going on and showing you all the props that he had around in his studio and his little pipe.” Rockwell’s heavy use of photo reference was something he famously hid in his early career. However, by 1960, he openly shared his darkroom location with Ann as part of the visit. “He gave me the elbow and we went into the darkroom, while Tom was looking around the studio,” she playfully said. “It was really just a darkroom, where he developed his pictures.” #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Doc Savage TM & © Advance Magazine Publishers, Inc. The Harrad Experiment ©the respective copyright holder. “The Problem We All Live With” painting by Norman Rockwell © NRELC.

Above: Paperback cover art by the heralded James Bama, renowned for his 62 Doc Savage paperback cover paintings and perhaps best recognized by the general public for his unforgettably provocative cover for The Harrad Experiment [1968]. When instructor Frank J. Reilly was stricken with (ultimately fatal) health issues, one-time Reilly student Bama stepped in to teach Tom’s painting class. Below: Before they were married, Tom took Ann on a sort-of pilgrimage to Stockbridge, Massachusetts, to visit perhaps the greatest American magazine cover painter of all, Norman Rockwell, who welcomed his guests and showed them around his studio. Ann said of the icon, “He talked art stuff with Tom.”

great painter and paperback book cover artist, James Bama,* renowned creator of the Doc Savage cover paintings, The Harrad Experiment, and many Western paperback covers. “I got to meet Jim Bama when Frank Reilly was hospitalized for a brain tumor. Many of Reilly’s older professional ex-students did come back to help him out and James Bama was a big draw, filling the classes.” Tom shared a few more thoughts on that teaching visit by Bama: “That night was kind of his swan song as he was leaving that evening. He had been living in New York and he had bought a house out in Wyoming, and he was going to paint out there. He was leaving with a bunch of photographs of [model] Steve Holland, so he could keep doing the Doc Savage covers. He could make a living doing Western paintings and Western art. I lost track of him doing that. I’d see some of his paintings every once in a while. He was so realistic it was unbelievable. Yeah, I wasn’t that crazy over the Western art. He had, essentially, his artistic flair when it was Doc Savage or some of the other things that he did.” It was while working under Reilly that the nascent (if not entirely green) years of Tom’s career began. “Each year Reilly had a firefighter poster contest. It was done by the New York Fire Insurance Underwriters. We’d all do paintings, and they’d have a contest at the end of the year to see whose painting won. You got $300 and then your painting went on the poster for that year. I won the poster contest in 1967. Reilly was gone, it was a month or two after he passed away in the hospital [on January 15, 1967]. And, at that point, I started to go out on my own from the school and my career was begun. While at Reilly’s, it became a place to stay, it was like home.”

Fire Prevention Week poster © American Insurance Association. “Heroes” painting © the estate of Tom Palmer. Poster and clipping courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

Ann continued to explore the environs while her husband visited with his hero. “He was talking to Tom a while there, and I was just looking around to see what was in the area. It was really nice scenery up there. His studio was separate from his house,” she continued. “It was a short visit. It wasn’t for lunch or anything like that, it was just that Tom wanted to meet Norman Rockwell, and he was fortunate enough to get an answer from him. He talked art stuff with Tom.” She added how her fiancé reacted to the visit. “He was in awe. He couldn’t stop talking on the way home, ‘I got to see Norman Rockwell.’” After the short though intoxicating visit, Tom apparently kept in touch with his idol, as Ann shared, “I think he continued corresponding with him. But not monthly or anything like that. It was a part of his life [and] he cherished it. He was so happy that he could meet him because he liked [Rockwell’s] paintings. He liked whatever he did. We would go into a doctor’s office or dentist’s office, and he would see a picture or a painting of Norman Rockwell on [a magazine] cover. He would hand me the magazine, and I would rip out the page, so he could keep a copy of it.” Later recounting the visit, she described Stockbridge as much quintessentially homespun American as was Rockwell’s art. “It was just a very quiet town. You just say ‘Norman Rockwell’ and the people there knew exactly where [he] was. Everybody liked the fact that he was living in that town, and he used a lot of his townspeople in his drawings and his paintings.” Ann concluded, “It was a good day for Tom, to get up there to see him. He was so excited. Those are the good old days.”

Above: The impact DC executive VP Dick Giordano had on Dan Jurgens’ start as a creator cannot be understated, given it was a casual breakfast at the 1984 Dallas Fantasy Fair where the fabled editor/artist gave the young man the green-light to develop Booster Gold as a regular title. Below: Dick also inked a good amount of Dan’s pencils, including this detail of the title character from the cover of Warlord #86 [Oct. 1984].

A CHANGE OF DIRECTION Good old days, indeed. It was an exceptional experience for Tom. However, in the period following the visit, a sad truth became obvious: the golden age of magazine illustration was over. Tom said, “Then reality set in; magazines were dying. So I had to change my direction. When I got out of Reilly’s, I wanted to go into paperbacks. A lot of guys did. But, to do that, I needed an agent and they all wanted like 45% of what the publishers were paying. I must have had something on my brow that said, ‘Sucker,’ when I walked into their offices. I said, screw that and I went out on my own and I sold myself. I didn’t get any paperbacks, but I got advertising art. “I was first working in an advertising studio on Madison Avenue. So I was doing both [attending school and working for ad agencies]. I was doing it, but no comic books yet. That all took a while.” The advertising studio which served as the biggest link to the comics industry for the young Tom Palmer was New York’s Remus Art. “It was very small. I walked in looking for a job, and there was a drawing board available there. The owner [artist representative], Dick Remus, didn’t do any artwork. He was a salesman, very proper and professionally dressed. He went around the room and introduced me to the artists in the studio and said, ‘Oh, this is Dick McFarland, and this is Jack Kamen…’” Tom was overcome with excitement with that latter introduction. “‘Jack Kamen! Are you Jack Kamen from E.C. Comics?!’ And Jack swings around from his drawing board and says, ‘Yeah.’ We get into this big conversation, and Remus interrupts COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

This page: Frequent James Bama model Steve Holland, who posed for many Doc Savage covers, also looks to be the subject in Tom’s award-winning (see inset left) 1967 “Fire Prevention Week” poster. Below is a repro of Tom’s contribution to Marvel’s 9/11 tribute book, Heroes [Dec. 2001].

This page: Above, at left, is legendary E.C. Comics stalwart Jack Kamen, who had established a career in advertising illustration when Tom worked with him in the 1960s. Below is a panel from Tom’s early comic book gig, penciling Jungle Jim for Wallace Wood [#22, Feb. ’69] featuring Woody’s inks. Next page: For much of his comics career, Tom moonlighted as advertising artist. Here’s examples from two jobs, three circa ’70s pages for American Cyanamide and a 1980 Mort Drucker-esque comics gig for Hunt Chemical.

us, ‘Jack, I’m trying to interview this guy.’ And Kamen said, ‘Hire him!’ I had just walked in the door. “So, because of all that, Jack became a great friend, a really great friend. He later got me into the Society of Illustrators.” It was through this relationship with Kamen that Tom was able to forge friendships with other former E.C. artists and comics luminaries. One of them was Joe Orlando. “I was sitting in a drawing class and I see someone I recognize. I knew Joe Orlando from the E.C. comics because they would print pictures of the artists. At the end of the session, I walked over and asked, ‘Excuse me, are you Joe Orlando?’ He looks at me and says, ‘Yeah.’ I told him that I was working in a studio with Jack Kamen. We became friendly from there. “Years later, Joe wanted to get into the Society of Illustrators. So I got the entry forms and then Jack signed them for Joe to sponsor him. So we had a grand old time getting people into the Society of Illustrators. But Joe Orlando was fantastic. He helped me years later when I was trying to get work at DC, after Marvel was kind of floundering. It was good making friends in the industry, you make friends along the way. You never know when you might need them.”

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Jungle Jim TM & © the respective copyright holder. Photo courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

EARLY DAYS IN THE FUNNY BOOK BUSINESS As Tom was beginning his process to find work in the comics industry, he didn’t stray too far from the advertising world for motivation. “Stan Drake and Ken Bald were doing Sunday comics in the Journal American in New York [The Heart of Juliet Jones and Dr. Kildare, respectively]. They were the two that inspired me the most because their work felt like advertising. They were both working from Polaroids and there’s a ‘life-ness’ to their drawings. Turns out it was true what Jack Kamen once told me: that Stan Drake was the first artist in New York to have a Polaroid. He was one of the highest-paid pen-&-ink artists in the city.” Tom moved ahead to sometime in the late ’80s or early ’90s to finish his reminiscence about Drake. “I just loved his stuff, and I went up to Connecticut to buy some of his originals (likely in a lunch set up by Roy Richardson). The strips were losing papers at the time, so he was looking for some extra money… Stan and I [had] a nice conversation. My gosh, no one could draw girls like Stan Drake.” Tom’s later meeting with Drake was a joyful experience, but

unfortunately, the same could not be said of his initial 1960s meeting with boyhood hero Wallace Wood. “I went up to visit. He was up on the Upper West Side, in one of the old buildings, like you see in the movies. I remember knocking on the door. It was a big door. He had a big studio with high ceilings. Finally, I hear some rustling and someone comes to the door. And Woody was out like a light on the couch. He was fuzzy. He had been drinking and it was very disappointing. Disappointing to meet my hero and he was out of it. But he did invite me back. I helped him out in the studio a couple of times. I even penciled something for him, Jungle Jim [#22, Feb. ’69]. Believe me, if you see it, it’s not me, it’s Woody. “I was getting relaxed with him. I might go up there and he would sometimes be in the doldrums. I don’t know if that was when he drank. I really didn’t know his cycle. But I remember one day I wanted to talk to him about something. I had been reading about [illustrator] Robert Fawcett and saw that he was in his 40s before he was published in magazines. He had been working that long before he got this break. I told Woody about it when I got there and it brightened his day. Because he wanted to make a transition from comic books to magazine illustration. He was trying everything. He was doing stuff for [science fiction digest] Galaxy, where he did covers. There was that period that he was trying to get into other things. So that story just lit him up. It was hard to explain Woody, because there were times when he might be on a bender, and then sometimes he was exuberant about something else. I remember reading one of the Russ Cochran E.C. reprint books, where Bill Gaines called him a tortured elf. When I read that it made sense. That elf part of him was always present.” Unlike the mixed emotions that came with meeting Wood, Tom remembers with fondness his earliest interactions at Marvel during their influx of new talent. Especially, it was his first mind-blowing introduction to Stan Lee and Flo Steinberg on what would be his first Marvel assignment. “In the late ’60s, a lot of the artists that were getting into the business, they were all excited about Marvel. They didn’t go to DC. They came to Marvel. I think a lot of that excitement was because Stan Lee was going out on the college circuit. People were getting all worked up with Stan doing speeches at colleges. He was the biggest promoter of comic books. “When I first went up to Marvel, his gal Friday, Flo Steinberg, brought me in to see Stan. He was there in his office, with a couch and a chair, and he got up and he starts acting out this Doctor Strange story that I was going to pencil for my first work at Marvel. He gets on the couch and he’s doing this, and he’s doing that, and I just stood there spellbound by all of it. He gets all done and he says, ‘Okay, off you go.’ I stumbled out the door, I must have been so eye-glazed. Flo followed me outside his office and she hands me a little cheat sheet. She wrote down the plot on a piece of paper. Without her, I would have been in deep trouble.” Tom remained faithful to Marvel, even in those early days. “Joe Orlando was throwing teasers to me. He was trying to get me to go up to DC. I was making too many friends at Marvel, so I was reluctant. I wasn’t happy with the idea of going back and forth. But I did something for him, once or twice, at DC [“RoundTrip Ticket,” House of Secrets #100, and “The Burning,” House of Mystery #206, both Sept. ’72]. Marvel was always throwing work at me, and [legendary Marvel production head] ‘Big’ John Verpoorten was always giving me covers. He would call on Friday afternoon and ask me if I could do something, and I would I always say yes. He would send it overnight for Saturday delivery and I’d have to bring it in on Monday. He appreciated

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All © the respective copyright holders and courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

that so much because he couldn’t get work back that quickly from other people. He kept throwing work at me. And as somebody that was trying to make it in the business, it was nice.” It was that first Marvel job, his pencils on Doctor Strange #171 [Aug. ’68], which brought Tom under the eye of Stan’s right-hand man, Roy Thomas. As Thomas recalled, “Tom is mostly noted as an inker, but he started out, his first work for Marvel, was as a penciler… And he’d done a couple of covers, which we used… Dan Adkins had done the first couple of [Doctor Strange]… And then, on the third issue, he couldn’t do it anymore. And my impression, right or wrong, was that he had been the one who suggested Tom. But that may or may not be true. Dan was going to ink it and Tom was going to pencil it.” Thomas continued, “It’s interesting, I don’t remember that much about it. I felt Tom’s basic penciling was good. And, as I’ve written elsewhere, I think that if he worked at it for a couple of months or so, you know, it would work out just fine… But, after one issue, I think Stan was… I don’t know if he was unhappy with it or if Gene [Colan] wanted to do the book or he wanted Gene to do the book… Stan just called me and informed me that Gene Colan was going to be taking over as the penciler with the fourth of the new issues. And this guy, Palmer, was going to be inks. The only thing I remember was that I was a little unhappy about having Tom hoisted on me as the inker, because, as I remember asking Stan, ‘Have we seen any inking by this guy?’ But Stan said it would be all right, and so forth… Of course, as soon as we saw the work, it really worked out perfectly. And it got better over the next couple of issues as he got more used to Gene, who was kind of a tricky guy to ink.” Thomas explained, “Some people [who inked Colan], like Vinnie Colletta on ‘Sub-Mariner,’ just kind of rolled right ahead. He just inked it and that was it, and that seemed to work out okay… Jack Abel had inked some of his ‘Iron Man,’ and so forth. But Tom Palmer was, especially for Doctor Strange, just perfect. He gave it the kind of illustrative touch that fits perfectly, even better than the other

inkers with what Gene laid down. Colan was the first artist on the “Master of the Mystic Arts,” Thomas said, who didn’t try to imitate series creator Steve Ditko. “So [Colan] did it with a whole different approach and Tom turned out to be the perfect inker for that, over that short time. He was also coloring it and that seemed to work out quite well. So we became a nice triad of a team. Even if, in the long run, we didn’t sell quite enough copies to keep it going. But then, you know, Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D., didn’t make it either, or X-Men, or a couple of those books around that time. And Gene and Tom worked together on Doctor Strange later with other writers.” (Indeed, the sublime team worked on the title in the mid-’70s.) STARTING FROM THE MOUNTAIN TOP Of those Marvel titles Thomas mentioned to barely make it out of the ’60s, one of those introduced a sterling team-up of artists that was all but heaven-sent. While, in retrospect, Gene Colan and John Buscema were the two pencilers most associated with the inks of Tom Palmer, no single artist is more intertwined, personally or historically, with our man from Glendale than Mr. Neal Adams. “We’re old friends,” shared Tom. “We both did work for the Marvel Heroes book that came out following 9/11. I did a painting and Neal did a drawing for it. We were both interviewed by Jeanne Moos for CNN. We met up at Marvel in a large conference room and she had a cameraman and a sound man. Neal and I are talking, and I said something to him about his career. I said, ‘Well, you were like a savant.’ And he said, ‘What, are you calling me an idiot?’ I said, ‘I didn’t call you an idiot.’ I wouldn’t budge from what I was saying. She comes over and she said, ‘You two should take this on the road.’ I told her that we were two New York kids and that we do this all the time. Neal had to kind of smile a little bit, because he loves to pull your leg. Either you go along and let him pull your leg or you stand up and face him. If you have a conviction, hang on to it. You know, he would argue a point. I don’t know if he really believed in it, but he’d love to

“A Priceless Gift” courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

This page: For a public service comic book promoting blood bank donations Tom both penciled and inked the six-page story, “A Priceless Gift,” which also featured pro letterer John Costanza’s work. Opposite page: Interestingly, though he soon earned a stellar reputation as a premier inker at the company, Tom’s first Marvel gig was to pencil Doctor Strange #171 [Aug. ’68], inked by Dan Adkins. 54

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Doctor Strange TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Below: From the back cover of Booster Gold: The Big Fall, a hardcover collection of Booster Gold #1–12 [1986–87] , these panels, by penciler Dan Jurgens and inker Mike DeCarlo, originally appeared (with slightly different wordage) in the second issue of Booster Gold [Mar. 1986].

kind of argue. And that’s what we were doing that day. We are good friends, and we respect each other. “I was thinking about Neal Adams and how we met: it kind of carried all the way through our friendship over the years. When I first got to Marvel, Roy Thomas would have parties every once in a while at his apartment on 86th Street, in New York. He invited me to one, when I barely knew anybody. I went there with my wife, Ann, and it was quite large. Stan was there and so was Gil Kane and others… Roy took me aside and said, ‘I want you to meet somebody,’ and there was Neal on this lounge sitting next to Bernie Wrightson. Neal wound up talking about spending time in Germany. His father was in the military. I have a feeling Roy — rapscallion Roy — I think he was looking to put Neal and I together. Roy wanted to get Neal over to Marvel. Neal, I guess, was showing interest in The X-Men, so I think Roy put that together, where he would get Neal on and then I would work over Neal. “I remember the first pages I got. It was set in Egypt [X-Men #56, May ’69]. The penciling was something I had not seen before in comics. It was very precise. I could see where Neal was using a projector. He would sketch something out and then project it down on the page and make it bigger, smaller, move it over here or there. He was designing as he was preparing for the final drawings. His pages had a uniqueness. It was almost like it was planned out beyond what you could see. It was so great to be working over not just pencil sketches that looked like something… they were something. Something real. Those were real pyramids he had drawn. I actually had pictures of those same pyramids in my morgue files. I fell into doing very enjoyable work over Neal and I guess it blended well. Roy liked it. Neal was such a good artist.” In 2021, Adams shared his thoughts about his first pairing with Tom. “Remember that most guys who were making comic books, in those days, were inking with that kind of broad brushstroke, like Dick Giordano, with a heavy stroke line, and my stuff was fine and more detailed. Now, if Tom hasn’t told COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

you this, he is a fan of Stan Drake. I don’t know where he found it out, but Tom found out how to ink with fine pens. And he knew what a [Joseph Gillott] 1290 pen point [nib] was. And I couldn’t believe that there was actually somebody in comic books that knew what a 1290 pen point was. So, when I met him, and the question was, who was going to ink me of the various people around, even though I may not have agreed with some of the things that he did, the fineness of his line… we sort of agreed, ‘Let’s do Stan Drake on this. That’s the way to go.’ Because we both admired Stan Drake, because he’s not going to find me and not be able to do it like me, but he can do it like Stan Drake, then he can go in that direction. So that’s what he did. For me, that made a happy choice. “But he was never afraid to do whatever was there and do more. He would put Zip-A-Tone down. There’s a really good Magneto face [X-Men #62, Nov. ’69], where Magneto reveals himself with this big face and [Tom] puts Zip-A-Tone down on this. I was really surprised. It was a great job. It was the best of Marvel. In those days there weren’t that many people around that were doing good [work]. Everybody thought that comic books were on their way out.” Bob McLeod, who spent a good amount of time early in his career involved with Adams, weighed in on those thoughts. “Well, when I decided to try learning how to ink comic books, I had met Neal Adams and decided his inking was the best I’d seen, so I began studying his inking a lot. Then I saw how Tom Palmer had inked Neal on The X-Men, and I really liked it, so I started looking up Tom’s other work. He had a very strong style and seemed to know just what to do to make every penciler he worked over look really great by refining or adding lighting and detail. Neal had a cleaner, more precise ink style, but I considered Tom a more versatile inker than Neal. “Neal was very fortunate that Tom was there for him. Neal would not have made as much of an impact without him and Dick Giordano, because Neal’s

* This segment of the interview was conducted literally an hour prior to the announcement of the passing of Neal Adams.

then, for me at least, he subtly improves upon the entire look with the addition of a little more weight, a little more form and intuitive rendering. “The only person who has inked Neal at that same level was Neal himself. Tom managed to bring just the right level of himself forward, translated just enough of the drawing technique into his own signature inking style that those issues became, for me at least, the definitive Neal Adams comic book art. Some of those X-Men issues just blew my mind — they still do to this day — Neal’s obviously having fun and showing off as he reinvents the characters and comic art approach, in general. And I get the feeling that Tom was also enjoying playing over this artistic maverick. They were both stretching their creative wings. And then, when they re-teamed on The Avengers, there is a well-oiled collaborative feel to it all already in place.” As Tom recalled, Roy Thomas was an integral part of, not only the Adams/Palmer X-Men, but of Marvel as a company. “When I got up to Marvel in ’68, he was the guy that kind of took charge. Stan was Stan, and then you had Sol Brodsky and then you had Flo Steinberg. But Roy seemed to have his thumb on everything. I didn’t know anything about the business when I started out. I was getting a phone call every week or so to stop working on Doctor Strange, because at that time, you only get feedback from what the circulation was when the books came back from the shops. If you got half or 60 or 70% back, that meant the book wasn’t selling. A similar thing happened with X-Men. I got on with Neal and they were trying to get that book to survive. It wasn’t surviving fast enough and they canceled it. It went into reprint and, like a month or two later, they found out it was selling like crazy, but it was too late. They had already canceled it. So they did reprints for a year or so… It was the years that went between the end of the run I had with Neal and the start of the new X-Men by Len Wein and Dave Cockrum.”

Above: Coming in a year widely heralded as one of the best in the artform’s history, Booster Gold debuted in 1986. Created by Dan Jurgens, the super-hero character was later called “the greatest hero you never heard of,” and was a sketchy fellow from the future deemed a “lovable rogue” by The Slings & Arrows Comic Guide.

Above: The splash to an Inhumans tale by Adams/Palmer, Amazing Adventures #5 [Mar. ’71]. Below: Cover of their first issue of The X-Men, #56 [May ’69]. Bottom: Gillott‘s 1290 pen point nib, which, Adams said, produced a rich, robust luster to Tom’s evocative inkline.

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The Inhumans, The X-Men TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

style was so different from what most comic book inkers were familiar with, and no one else quite knew what to do with his pencils. It’s important to note that Tom also colored many of his jobs, which greatly helped to show his inking to best advantage. Most of my ink jobs were ruined with bad coloring. Tom also used a lot of Zip-A-Tone, causing many other inkers to incorporate it into their work.” Butch Guice, who would become one of Tom’s best friends, in addition to his own qualities as an illustrator, shared his insight on the Adams/Palmer X-Men work. “I can’t imagine anyone else at Marvel handling the inks on those issues as well as Tom. I mean, the work was going to attract my attention because Neal Adams was visually shaking up the industry with his then radical illustration field style and approach. And I, like everyone else reading comics at the time was busy having my comic sensibilities scrambled by Neal, but Tom elevated the work, in my opinion. Don’t get me wrong here: I was already familiar with Neal’s DC work and absolutely loved what Dick Giordano had brought to the table in their collaborations there. Beautiful stuff. Truly superior classic work by both. Tom Palmer’s work meets that same high standard — and

“THAT LITTLE EXTRA SOMETHING” The Adams and Palmer pairing was reborn with Thomas for one of the truly great runs in comics history, the legendary “KreeSkrull War,” in The Avengers, with #93–96 [Nov. ’71–Feb. ’72] featuring Adams and Tom, with John Buscema finishing out the run as penciler in #97 [Mar. ’72], which also had Tom’s inks. About Tom’s contribution, Thomas said, “What Tom brought to it was just really good inking. I mean, Neal had a bunch of good inkers, including Dick Giordano, but I think that somehow Tom gave… I don’t know exactly what… like that little extra something. It wasn’t like he improved Neal’s drawing. You couldn’t really do that. But he sort of added to it and made it seem even more real. I mean, as a non-artist, that’s the main thing I can say. That’s the difference, I think, between him and the other really good inkers with Neal, like Giordano and, to some extent, Neal himself. And I feel Tom was the right fit.” Despite Adams sometimes being late delivering his penciled pages, “It never looks rushed,” Thomas said. “Tom had to ink it very, very quickly and did a wonderful job. That’s the interesting thing about it is that it never looks rushed. You know, I know that last one in particular [#97], all of them were probably rushed, and that last one, probably more than any. And, in fact, that was probably over rough breakdowns by Buscema (who had stepped in for Adams). So [Tom] probably was doing even more drawing than usual, at breakneck speed, and he did a wonderful job of it.” The one thing which didn’t please Thomas was when Tom, who was also coloring those Avengers books, used the wrong color combination on the android memebr of the team, The Vision, in #93. Tom mused, “Roy Thomas was really upset. I

The X-Men, The Avengers TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. X-Men pencil stat courtesy of Neal Adams. X-Men inked panel courtesy of Cory Sedlmeier.

don’t think he wanted me to color anymore, but no one noticed the flub.” Since those early days, Tom remains appreciative of Roy Thomas. “We were both at the Heroes Convention, in North Carolina… and Roy and I sat down at a table across from each other and we were having a bite to eat. It was great talking with him. We see each other at these things, but never to sit down and talk. He was my contact at Marvel, initially. He was the guy that kind of guided my way. And I never actually thanked him, that he’s the one who got me on X-Men with Neal.” A current — and great — practitioner of comic book storytelling, artist Lee Weeks shared about an interaction with Adams, which perfectly summarizes the Adams/Palmer collaboration. “Over 20 years ago, I got a hold of copies of the pencils of [The Avengers #93]. They’re Neal, so they’re pretty tight. But then I had a chance to spend a bunch of time with Neal in Spain. We’re both invited to this comic festival, and I got to spend a bunch of time with him, several nights just having dinner and talking. And I mentioned that job and how I’d seen the pencils and I commented on how tight they were. And he corrected me. He said, ‘Look at them closely.’ “And the reason he corrected me was he was letting me know — rather generously I thought, and deservedly — he was just very quick to point out Tom’s contribution and how much Tom had done. He said, ‘Look at those. They’re not that tight.’ I mean individual lines are tight, but there are multiple positions for arms or various things where there was a lot of decision making that Tom had to do. He couldn’t say enough about how much that of that job was Tom. About how much was his contribution. And it just spoke volumes about both of them.”

I brought the pages up to Marvel and they almost went through the ceiling. They couldn’t believe it. Talk about getting a pat on your back! ‘Hey, do you want another book?’” Tom continued, “I stayed with Gene Colan. They wouldn’t put me on John Buscema (immediately) or Jack Kirby, especially. It wouldn’t have worked with them. But with Gene Colan, it worked. So it was a gradual evolution, I would say, of what was going on. Because, soon after, I started to color the comic books. I would prepare for it by putting a certain Zip-A-Tone on something metallic, maybe a graded Zip pattern. Then I would just drop a blue on top of it, which would make it like it was a round [object]. It’s like you were painting, it had a different look. I think that’s what I was looking for, a different look. I don’t think people knew it was Zip-A-Tone. They just thought it was the coloring.” In retrospect, Tom said, “I guess I had a different look. John Romita was ahead of the class. He and Joe Sinnott were all brush men. They were Windsor Newton, series 7, number two or number three brushes. Almost no one used a pen until I came in. It took penciling by three different guys, Neal Adams,

Above: Compare Adams’ pencils to Tom’s inks on this panel from The X-Men #62 [Nov. ’69]. Below: The Avengers #93 [Nov. ’71]. Bottom: Detail from The Avengers #96 [Feb. ’72], a job inked by Tom, Adams, and Alan Weiss

KING OF THE DARK PAGES While working with Neal Adams may have been a more personal, formative experience for Tom, it’s his extended time working over the pencils of Gene Colan — usually on their extended Tomb of Dracula run — which has the most resonance with pros. As author and Palmer collaborator J.M. DeMatteis emphatically stated of the pairing, “Perfection! Colan’s pencils are so detailed, so textured, that it’s always a challenge for inkers. Tom brought out all the best in Gene’s work and added layers of his own. They were a masterful team… especially when it came to the dark, moody stories in Doc Strange and Dracula.” Tom recalled, “When I got into comics, the first comic book I penciled was Doctor Strange. But the second one I inked over Gene Colan. There was something about the comic books that Wally Wood did. I didn’t know what it was, but it turned out to be Zip-A-Tone. ‘How come the pants on this leg look different than the pants on someone else’s leg?’ They had all these little dots in them. So I bought Zip-A-Tone on my own. And, when I did that first Doctor Strange, I used Zip-A-Tone all over the place. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

Above: One of Tom’s rare pencil and ink jobs was “Pickman’s Model,” an adaptation of H.P. Lovecraft’s classic story in Tower of Shadows #9 [Jan. ’71], which featured caricatures of the scripter, Roy Thomas, and artist atop the splash page. Below: One of the greatest creative teams in a long-running series of ’70s comics was the crew producing Tomb of Dracula, a team that included writer Marv Wolfman, penciler Gene Colan, inker Tom Palmer, and letterer John Costanza. Here’s a production stat of a cover by Colan/Palmer, #48 [Sept. ’76].

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“Pickman’s Model,” Zipatone catalog TM & © the respective copyright holder. Tomb of Dracula TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Original art courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

Bottom: Cover and detail of an interior page of a Zipatone catalog from the 1970s. Manufactured between 1937–92, Zip-A-Tone was an adhesive shading film that was applied to artwork for textural effects, popular with artists such as Wallace Wood and Tom Palmer.

everything always worked out perfectly. “Gene would pencil a cover and leave no room for the logo. Marvel would send me the cover along with the logo, so I could know how much room the logo would take up. I’d ink the cover first and then photostat it using a photostat machine in the ad agency I worked at. I was able to John Buscema, and Gene Colan; I was working on all three make things smaller and larger or move things around, so the within one year. And each one penciled completely different art would fit the dimensions of the cover. I would do what they than the other. Neal was using reference, but it was not what call ‘mechanicals’ in the advertising business. What I sent back I was used to. Gene Colan was terrific. And John Buscema was just a comic book artist. I just fell into them. I was lucky. I guess I to Marvel was the finished cover with everything in place. Now had more experience with inking, but not in comic books; I just they may have wanted to still do little nicks and changes, but the cover was there with the logo and everything in place. And applied it to the comic books. And, luckily, all three were very I did that a lot. I don’t think they paid me more, but I got a lot professional people and they accepted what I was doing. I was of covers.” very fortunate. Very fortunate. “I don’t think Gene enjoyed inking. He enjoyed penciling. LIGHTNING IN A BOTTLE He had a cinematic graphic penciling style. He used a lot of photography, he even took his own Polaroids of maybe his wife, Sal Buscema, John’s brother, who partnered many times with and she took some of him. And he got a whole bunch of photo- the inker during his own time penciling The Avengers, shared his admiration for the pairing of Colan and Tom, “Well, they graphs of Jack Palance and used them on Dracula. You can see were beautiful. I mean, they were a joy. And I don’t obviously… [Palance] in the character. Gene was an illustrator that way. He felt comfortable with reference. And so, that was one style, and I don’t read comic books, but I appreciate the art so much. And Gene was a terrifically talented guy. And when he was inked by he enjoyed the pencil because he could schmooze the carbon Tom, I mean, his stuff just looked great. It was wonderful to look around. He used a very soft pencil like a B six, B four, B five, B seven, it really got soft. My hands, when I got done, looked like at and I enjoyed looking at it so much, I enjoyed trying to steal I’d been working somewhere at a newspaper or in a coal mine.” stuff. Which is something, I think, [comic artists] all do, we’re probably all guilty of it to one extent or another. So yeah, that It was a simple yet ingenious way of working over Colan’s pencils which made Tom the preeminent inker for Tomb of Drac- was, it was just a joy to see.” Walter Simonson, a friend and collaborator of Tom’s, gave ula. “So, when I was working on the book, I had to get to see his thoughts on what Tom brought to the page with Colan. what Gene was doing. Underneath all his graphite there was his [foundation], his layout, his first marks with the pencil. What “Gene penciled beautifully. He had a fabulous pencil technique. Neal did as well. His pencil technique was not the same I would do was take a kneaded eraser and pull it apart, like you’re making a pizza. I would roll it into almost like a frankfurt- as Gene’s; they were different artists, obviously. But both of them really could wield a pencil like a master. Gene’s work — at er, and then I’d roll it over Gene’s pencils. Just roll it. And like magic this drawing that was underneath would appear. At some least the stuff I saw later, I didn’t see his early work on ‘Iron point after doing this a number of times, there’s no way I could Man,’ stuff like that; I wasn’t in the business, I didn’t see his use the eraser because it was just completely saturated with the pencils — but the later stuff, as he went along, had become very tonal, with a lot of tone work in his stuff. And that, I think, carbon from the pencil. And I want to say that was my secret. made it very difficult to ink. But what it really meant was you “With Gene, you couldn’t ink everything black because Gene used the carbon everywhere, with the black of the pencil, had to convert what was a continuous gray tone into a series of ink lines. And ink is a very unforgiving medium. Pencil is very and he would have the shadow effects. What I did, which was forgiving, in a way; you can do a lot with a pencil that’s very difdifferent, was that I drew into the shadows and then used zipficult to replicate in ink. And one of the things that Tom was just a-tone and brought out the shadows. So you had a complete a master of was converting Gene’s tonal work into rendering, drawing in values. It was black and then you had the halftones and it worked with Gene. It kind of brought out his realistic style and into line in a way that, in many ways, came as close to replicating what Gene was doing in straight black-&-white, because when I was doing it.” As Tom noted, despite the magic between he and Colan, not it was no longer tonal. And he was really, really an expert at being able to convert Gene’s tone into black-&-white line in a way that killed the echo of the tone very effectively.” Lee Weeks expanded on those same thoughts, “There’s this feeling with Tom, the way he would spot blacks and the way that he would contrast the large black areas with the soft feathering out of shapes and stuff, I’ve just only seen a couple of artists where when you look at the printed page, you’re almost afraid to touch it because it feels like it’s still wet. There’s something so rich about the blacks that they appear to be wet. [Al] Williamson was like that. I’m sure you can talk to hundreds of artists who would say this very same thing that nobody else could interpret Gene in the way that Tom could. There was a very painterly quality and Tom deciphered it. He deciphered it and came up with a way of maintaining all the integrity of that

Tomb of Dracula #55 [Apr. ’77], Gene Colan, pencils, and Tom Palmer, inks. © Marvel Characters, Inc.

ethereal quality of Gene’s pencils, and yet still had a solidity to it that you didn’t always get with other inkers.” Himself a highly-regarded embellisher of Colan (and of virtually any other artist he inked), Klaus Janson shared his unique perspective on the Colan and Palmer pairing. “What Tom was able to do with Gene was pull out of Gene’s pencils, the three-dimensionality of Gene’s work. And the three-dimensionality of Gene’s work was oftentimes obscured a bit by inkers flattening out his gray tones and just doing them in black. As we know, Gene was a wonderful penciler and a tremendous amount of fun to work on. But Gene’s pencils needed a lot of interpretation. And this is where part of Tom’s astute knowledge, either from school or education or, you know, things that he just did intuitively, he was completely compatible and was the best inker Gene Colan ever had. “There is no depth to comics, it’s a flat page. So the creation of depth is a complete illusion. But Tom was able to do the three planes; foreground, middle ground, and background, through the use of his interpreting of Gene’s pencils or highlighting or certainly elaborating on the depth that Gene had in his pencils, that other inkers would just flatten out. So there’s no comparison between, say, Tom and Gene, and anyone else. Including, frankly, Gene’s own inks, which came close to being a style that did incorporate some depth. But Tom was just incredible on Gene Colan.” Beyond their famous teaming at Marvel, Colan and Tom would work together infrequently for the next several decades. This included working on characters as varied as Daredevil, Jaws 2, Stewart the Rat, Batman: Black and White, and even a Goofy comic. Tom shared his opinion about Colan’s work in those later decades. “All I can say is you could tell it was Gene. There was enough there that said ‘Gene Colan.’ Maybe it didn’t look like Dracula or didn’t look like some of the other things, but he had a style in doing the figure and it only got looser… The last time I worked with him or saw his stuff, it was getting a little bit looser. We did a Batman story together. Commissions were paying well, and some were off the wall, like a Captain Marvel and Dracula he did on a big sheet of paper.” About the man himself, Tom said, “Gene was the nicest guy… His eyesight was going. We would talk on the phone, and I pulled together a print of a machine gunner by Norman Rockwell for him. He was so excited. He was like a kid on Christmas when I sent it to him. He just loved that picture.” Ron Garney, one of Tom’s artistic partners and confidant, chimed in regarding the historical importance of the Colan/Palmer pairing on TOD. “Something like Tomb of Dracula with Gene and Tom deserves recognition, historical recognition, in my opinion. Not just within the comics community, but as an art form. I truly believe Tom deserves that with how good he really was. Tom stands out because he’s had lightning in a bottle with a few different people. Lightning in a bottle with Gene. Lightning in a bottle with John [Buscema] and other people that he’s worked with. You can talk about Daredevil and Dr. Strange, or whatever. But there’s something about that Dracula with Gene where everything was wispy and worked so perfectly with his layouts. There’s nothing like it.”

“Jim and I were talking a while back, about it being a lot of fun in those days, in the late ’60s. You had innovative art and people would say, ‘Did you see so and so this month?’ There was a competitive feeling about the business. It was a great time in comics in that period, however long it lasted… People coming in, competing against each other. I know Neal and Jim, I don’t know if they knew each other at the time, but Neal would use something, like ‘Hey! A Jim Steranko effect’ [in Strange Adventures #216, Feb. ’69]. They were borrowing from each other, whatever they were doing. And it was exciting for the fans. There’s always somebody, like Steranko, doing something different.” Tom graced his pen line over numerous all-time great pencilers throughout his career, and one he frequently worked with on covers was Gil Kane. “I found it very easy,” says Tom about inking the dynamic penciler. “When I looked at it, HEY! A TOM PALMER EFFECT! I knew where I had to ‘punch it’ and where I had to delineate. I didn’t have to When Jim Steranko was asked his opinion of Tom Palmer, the great innovator and showman answered as directly as only he could: “Tom P. is one of the field’s do different things to make it pop. It just popped. He knew where to place his really straight-shooters — wish there were more pros like him!” The inker himself blacks. He was a very good designer with blacks. I noticed a Dracula cover, I think it’s the first appearance of Blade [Tomb of Dracula #10, July ’73], that everyone mused, “I think the guy that was influencing Neal was Jim Steranko. He was wants me to sign. And there are a few others, like an early Star Wars cover [#3, ahead of all of us, I believe. I worked with him early on with Captain America. I Sept. ’77]… We did more than just Star Wars, Avengers, and Dracula covers. enjoyed that. I think he set the standard.” Other ones were popping up. It was like a conveyor belt. I kept getting work. That standard was highly visible in Captain America #113 [May ’69], “The Strange Death of Captain America,” the third and final issue of Steranko’s historic That’s how I bought my first house.” run on the character. Tom had stepped in as inker in place of another stalwart BIG JOHN embellisher. “I could see what Joe Sinnott brought to it,” Tom shared. “I would Where Gil Kane provided wonderful art, it was Tom’s union with John Buscema say that Joe Sinnott is the best inker — ever. Joe was a brush guy and there’s a lushness about it, where I was a pen guy. I used a couple of different pen points, which is his longest-lasting pairing with a penciler. As previously mentioned, John was someone who was a father figure to Tom, similar in the way Tom so I brought a different look to it. I think Jim liked what I did, although I never inked anything else by him.” Tom continued, “Jim would pencil and erase, pencil looked upon Frank Reilly. “The thing with John Buscema was that I had to get and erase. It seemed like he was erasing his pencils and doing them over… not out my pencil and finish up certain things before I could ink it. I wasn’t comfortable inking everything he penciled. But he was good for telling a story… Just all the time. But that’s the one thing I noticed. I enjoyed working with him. But it’s hard to say… he was not the type of comic book artist I was used to working action, anatomy, all of that, even the perspective was all dead on. He had a great, great looking style going into a book. And he was leaving little notes for Stan. with, like Gene Colan. But Jim was good and he’s aged well, too. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

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“The Occult World of Doctor Strange” Marvel Comics Calendar 1980 TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

tremendous influence on me, obviously. And I tried, to the utmost on his work, to follow his penciling and not ruin it. Because his penciling was so beautiful. It was always a shame to ink it. So many times I said, ‘I don’t know why they just don’t publish the pencils because it’s just beautiful of themselves.’ But obviously, they didn’t do that because a lot of inkers would have lost work. He was outstanding in that respect.” About Tom’s inks on John, “It’s probably the best John Buscema’s art ever looked,” shared Bob McLeod. “Buscema was a brush inker, like Gene, but his work just sings with Tom’s inking. I guess I should point out that Tom had an extremely flexible pen line that many people mistake for brush and, of course, he did use brush in addition to pen.” During those early years at Marvel, Tom was making $22 per page as an inker. “In advertising, I was making a hell of a lot more money,” Tom recounted. “But every time you walk in the door, you don’t know if it’s going to be a fun job or something you’d have to bust your nut on. And it was not fun. It was a lot of work and sometimes work you didn’t care to be doing, but you did it because you got paid well. It was nice to then shift gears to comics and have a fun job like The X-Men every month, and Doctor Strange, and working with John Buscema. He was so much fun to work with. “I think the storytelling was one of John’s strong points; a lot of action, with figures that were very dramatic and eye-catching. When he was working for the Chait Studios ad agency, over in New York, John was not doing any illustrations; he was doing roughs and quick sketches. He was penciling tightly when he first went back to Marvel, but then he got looser. He found out that he could make more money that way. They took $10 off his page rate and that’s what they would add on to the inking rate. “John could breeze through a book, and he was making money,” Tom said, alluding to the work the two did on The Avengers after Buscema returned in #255 [May ’85]. “He could do, maybe, two books a week rather than one book a month. His penciling was rough, depending on what he was trying to get through, but everything was there. As far as I was concerned, everything was there that I needed. It didn’t mean I didn’t pick up the pencil and plot in halftones or shading. If he was building something in the foreground with a vanishing point, he did it by hand and everything was dead on. He didn’t use a Below and next page: Penciler ruler or anything else. He was very good. Fast, but accurate. Dan Jurgens and inker Kevin Nowl“And his body expressions! His Captain Americas look like they were cean’s Dynamic Forces edition of the mented into the ground. That was something he had gotten from Alex Raymond. Action Comics #1000 [June 2018] He loved Alex Raymond and Hal Foster. When he was growing up in the ’30s, he variant cover in various stages. used to copy them from the Sunday papers. But his Captain America was one of the best. I never worked over Kirby, so I don’t know from experience, but Kirby had a pretty solid Captain America. I worked on many different things with John, even a comedy short, like four or five pages for one of the books. He was good at everything. He was just an all-around artist. “He used to lift weights… A big, powerful guy, but he was also a good guy. You were his friend as long as you didn’t stab him in the back. He’s from the old You know, ‘Cap punches baddies.’ And Stan would write it. I guess he had the New York school. It was fun working with him and it was sad to see him move same thing with Jack Kirby.” on. Something happened at Marvel, and he jumped and he went up to DC. I Speaking of the King of Comics, Tom said, “I never worked with Kirby. I think John liked what I did because he knew we had to do something together, would see Kirby’s pages at Marvel and I could see how pristine they were. you couldn’t just ink what he put down. You had to bring something to it.” They’re just beautifully laid out. John was a little bit more active. A lot more goBrother Sal commented on his time on The Avengers with Tom as his inker, ing on. But it was good. He wasn’t Kirby; he wasn’t meant to be. That’s why the as well as working with brother John. “It was a pleasure. I mean, how can you books look different. But Kirby, he had Thor, he had Fantastic Four, and Captain describe it in any other way? Tom and my brother were the consummate profesAmerica. And the only thing different were the inkers.” sionals. And, you know, working with them was a joy. I didn’t consider it work; Kirby had many inkers work over his pencils during his time at Marvel. So, I considered it a fun project. It was just something that we loved to do. And, too, did John Buscema. Unlike Kirby, John was highly critical of the way his believe it or not, we get paid for it. What more could you ask for? That’s the best pencil line was treated by the brush men who delineated his work. “Big John,” way I can describe that situation. as he was known, was not a penciler any inker wanted to come to odds with. “Tom was not only a nice guy, but he was extremely gifted, and probably one In 2017, Neal Adams shared his thoughts about what it was like to ink John. of the top five inkers in the entire industry. And every time he inked a book, he “Working over John Buscema, you just want to save every precious line and make sure you ink it and add a few extra lines of your own. And then, you pray to made it look better. That’s what I appreciate about him: that his inking did not hold the line, it didn’t decrease anything, it enhanced whatever he was inking God that John Buscema doesn’t arrive at your door and punch you in the face.” “That was John, all right,” shared brother Sal Buscema. “I wish I had a nickel over. And certainly, that was the case when he worked over my stuff.” (About the other Buscema, Tom exclaimed, “I really enjoyed working with Sal. At the drop of for how many conversations we had about inkers ruining his penciling. But a hat, I would have done it again. I was very happy to be working with Sal.”) guys like Tom and Joe Sinnott and myself… I, in particular, was very familiar Ron Garney expanded his thoughts of the quality of John and Tom as a with John’s penciling and the way he went about it. As a matter of fact, he was a

Captain America TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Below: Dan and Kevin notably worked together on the Superman vs. Aliens mini-series [three issues, July–Sept. 1995], a joint DC/Dark Horse presentation.

team. “I just think there’s only one other guy that Tom worked over that… well, two… that were so strong in their own right that it was just colossal, something otherworldly, in how brilliant it was. And that was John Buscema and Gene Colan. They were so strong that it was a special treat to look at Tom and both those guys together on something.” Then Garney brought up a contemporary superstar art team in comparison. “It’s kind of like Scott Williams and Jim Lee. They’re very perfect for each other. Scott, such a strong inker, good artist. I wouldn’t compare him to Tom. They are two different animals, of course. But you see how strong Jim Lee’s pencils are, and how much Scott Williams complements them. So you can appreciate both of them. “As far as being more modern, Jim and Scott are, that’s the only way I could really compare it, I guess. But I think Tom and John Buscema transcend that even more, because it’s a much more organic, classic, timeless look, that will always stand the test of time. You can’t look at that stuff and go, ‘Oh, it’s so dated.’ Because it’s art! Art is never really dated. I can never look at a Michelangelo and say it’s dated. You can’t. It’s just brilliant art that stands the test of time. It’s not something that you can pigeonhole into a pop culture category.” “I’ve never seen John’s layouts,” shared Walter Simonson, who scribed “the Earth’s Mightiest Heroes,” to be visualized by John and Tom. “I don’t know what his layouts are like back in the early days of working together. John could sort of give you all the information you needed. But an awful lot of it was by inference. I don’t know that I would have been comfortable inking his layouts because it was sort of all there at the same time. It was like phantom stuff. Beautifully done. And always great storytelling. John’s storytelling was just like butter… if COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

you spell butter: B-U-T-T-A-H. “I got a chance to write for a year on The Avengers, and I would send him stuff and it would come back, and it was all there. I’m told, I don’t know for sure, that John would just sit down on page one, he’d have the plot in his hand, and start laying it out and, by the time he was done, it was all there. And the plot was laid out evenly for the entire job… I’ve written a couple and given the artists the plot, working Marvel style, which nobody does anymore, but it’s my favorite style of working, and I think it produces better comics, I have many friends whose heads would explode when I say that — they’re wrong — they get to, like, the last two pages and suddenly realize they’ve only gotten half the plot done. And suddenly, you’d have ten-panel pages at the last few pages as they crammed as much as they could. And somehow John didn’t do that. He had the talent and the analytical power to just lay it out evenly all the way through. Maybe he wrote stuff down a little bit before he began drawing. I don’t know. It didn’t sound like he did, but I never really talked to him about it. And, whenever I got the jobs, they were just all laid out perfectly. So I thought Tom brought a crispness to the work as well as a finish.”

This spread: Colan/Palmer page, 1980 Marvel calendar; spread; Captain America #113 [May ’69], cover at bottom. Below, Tom’s pic from the 1975 Mighty Marvel Convention souvenir book.

ROBOSAURS AND STAR WARS Simonson continued with one of his — and Tom’s — favorite behind-the-scenes stories from the trio’s work together at the end of the ’80s. “There are these mechanical dinosaurs [The Avengers #295, Oct. ’88], kind of like Transformers or Dinobots. There are several different things for a while that were available in toy stores that kind of inspired some of that stuff. And, when I get the page from John to write, John would draw the T-Rex, but he would draw it in an outline of an actual T-Rex. So all that 61

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The Avengers TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Tom relayed one of his favorite Chaykin anecdotes, which remains bittersweet, as it revolved around Tom’s late daughter. “We had a terrific time; we both went over to London. He had his wife with him, and I had my daughter, Jeannie, and we went over to London for Super Comic Con. They were having a special Star Wars exhibition [in 2016]. He half-heartedly went. I think his wife just wanted to go over to London. They had been there before and liked some restaurants, and all that. But we had a good time. “He has a very short fuse. Not that he would blow up, but if you don’t fit the criteria that he has expected, or whatever, that he sees you should be, you’re sort of left on the side. But we’ve had some good times going back and forth. My daughter went over with me and he, and his wife especially, they just latched on to her. And when my daughter passed, they were there for me. It was the last chance that she would have been able to [travel overseas] because it was, only a year or two later, when she was gone.” After a painful pause, Tom revealed that Jeannie was afraid to fly. “I took her to the airport bar and we had a martini. She was feeling pretty good, and she got on the plane. Not only was she not afraid, but she was taking movies with her camera out the window when it was taking off. So I always thought that was great. And we had a good conversation going over. I remember saying to her, ‘I just want to tell you about Howard Chaykin. He’s going to ask you your age and he’s going to ask me about my hair.’” It was after arriving at the convention’s “meet and greet” that the father’s warning to his daughter came to fruition. “So, across the room, I see Howard Chaykin. Howard comes over to me and I say, ‘This is my daughter, Jeannie.’ And he says, ‘Hi. How old are you?’ And my daughter, first was shocked, and then could not stop laughing. Because the next thing he says to me was, ‘Oh, you’re dying your hair again. Why do you dye your hair?’ And I said, ‘Because I can.’ “Howard says funny things. I’m not gonna say he’s critical, but he’s very cutting,” chuckled Tom about his friend. “Whatever he says about me, I go right back at him. I was within earshot when he was talking about his Star Wars work. He said, ‘I wish I spent more time with it.’ I think he got people to come in and help do the work. He didn’t put in as much as he could have. It didn’t have his stamp on there. Hey, that first cover was a pencil job that I inked and finished. But he was working with a crew of guys. And he was doing just very loose penmechanical crap on those dinosaurs, that is all Tom. The placement is John, and ciling. And they were holding his penciling up with the work that they did for a number of issues until Star Wars took off like a like a rocket. the composition is John, but converting all those simple outline dinosaurs into “I remember the first cover I inked over Howard [Star Wars #1, July ’77]. finished robots was really Tom. Tom was not happy about it. But John would give you the layout, he’d give you the composition and give you the storytelling, and When I got the pencils from Marvel, I’m looking at it and I said, ‘Wait a minute, what is this guy?’ So I called up John Verpoorten and I said to John, ‘John, who then Tom would take over, and Tom knew enough about drawing that he could was that guy in the background? Is that a fireman?’ Because I can see this mask convert John’s loose limbed, beautifully graceful figures into finished work. “And, as I said, I would have been very trepidatious, the way John and I drew and all that. And he says, ‘Yeah, make him a fireman.’ It was Darth Vader!” Tom the let out a hearty laugh. “Who in the world, at the time, even knew what a so differently. I would have had to learn a lot more about the figure before I would have felt comfortable inking that stuff. And Tom just did it so beautifully — Darth Vader was?” Where super-hero teams and vampires had made up much of Tom’s first deand for so long — that I was just in awe of that stuff, as well. It was just great. And cade as a comic book inker, it was his attachment to Star Wars which catapulted the two of them were so much fun to work with. John was like working with a longshoreman. This gruff guy, and just as sweet as could be, and of course, Tom him and his colleagues into a totally different pop culture stratosphere. In spite is just the nicest guy on the face of the earth. So it was fun. I regretted getting off of the futuristic tone, it was still a bare bones approach which Tom brought to the property. “My son was very young, and Star Wars took him away to another the book.” planet. He was just so taken by Star Wars.* And so was I. When I was doing the Tom shared some last thoughts on his former penciling colleague. “If you ever saw his raw comic page penciling, it was not tight at all. You could imagine work on the strip with different people, sometimes the ships were off model. It was hard to draw them at different angles accurately. So I went out and bought John sitting at a board in his studio and just sketching things out, and then he the model kits, the larger ones that you had to put together. I put some black would tighten them up a bit. But I saw him in different stages. Once in a while, lines on the parts that separated the body from the wings so they would show he would do something tighter because he wanted to do that because that up when I photographed them. My son was a few years old and, after dinner, I’d was the era he came from. But he could do something and it looked like Hal tell him that he was going to go down to the studio with me. He’d love to hold Foster or Alex Raymond. I don’t think he picked up from any other artists, like a contemporary. He wasn’t somebody who looked like Jack Kirby or anything like these ships up and I would take Polaroid shots of them, especially the Millennium Falcon or the X-Wing.” that. So John Buscema was his own man. And I think he’s missed.” Tom, Jr., remembered, “I was still kind of young when those movies were Howard Chaykin always had Tom Palmer pegged. The two had a decadesout, when he was working on that book. So it wasn’t really on my radar that long friendship, which consisted of both love and sarcasm. As Chaykin shared two days after Tom’s passing, “There’s not much to say. Tom was just an extraordi- it was a comic book. I was more a fan of the movies. It was neat that he was nary talent and a true gentleman. He always thought he was fooling everybody. working on those comics, but I wasn’t a comic book fan at that age. He kept these black-&-white photos of me holding these spaceships up. What I really He dyed his hair and hung out with us younger guys. He started working in comics only a few years before Walter [Simonson]. But he was part of that * Tom, Jr., said in a eulogy for his dad, “I think my sister and I convinced him to take us to older guard.” see Star Wars about 472 times, when it was in its original movie theater run.”

FOOM, The Avengers TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Buscema portrait © the estate of Tom Palmer. Conan TM & © Conan Properties International, LLC. Red Sonja TM & © Red Sonja LLC.

remember is that I’m just a kid, holding these heavy models up over my head, I’m shaking, trying to keep them steady. And he was getting a little frustrated with me that I wasn’t holding it the right way, and we needed to get the lighting right. It wasn’t until later that it really clicked with me that he was doing the comic books.” The elder Palmer continued the story: “I actually dropped the Polaroids into a projector and drew them right on the page. It was perfect because it was difficult to draw them freehand. There was an authenticity to the ships and people reacted to it.” Among the Star Wars pencilers Tom worked with was Bob McLeod, one of his favorites. As the inker said, “There’s an ease to working over someone who knows what they’re doing. And you’re not approached by the editor or anyone else, or yourself that you have to fix something along the way. There are artists, like Walt can do his own inking, and so can Bob. And so, it’s just easy, except I’m bringing my style a little bit. On Star Wars, Bob McLeod was really there with his pencils. He knew what he was doing.” McLeod recalled, “I was very familiar with what Tom did, having studied his inking so much, so I knew what to expect. Still, it was fun to see him apply his skills to my breakdowns because he did things very differently from how I would have done them. He wanted me to do breakdowns rather than finished pencils, which I was happy to do because I wanted to see as much of what he could contribute as possible, so I could learn from it. After a few issues, however, as much as I liked what he did, it just made me want to ink it myself, to use what I had learned from him.” Walter Simonson, Tom’s long-lasting Star Wars compatriot, gave his impression of the inherent quality of the inker’s work. “One of my favorite actors is the late Ian Holm, from Alien, Chariots of Fire, and all sorts of stuff. And one of the great things about Ian Holm is that everything he was in was better because of his presence. Even crappy movies were better if Ian Holm was in them. And that was kind of true of Tom’s inks. Whatever Tom inked, it was better, because he inked it. And that is not true of every inker out there — no offense to other inkers. But Tom really brought a polish and a finish to whatever he did that

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really upped the game of the artwork. “He was astoundingly reliable. And I speak as a guy who was not as reliable. He worked on a bunch of work for [Walter’s wife] Weezie when she was at Marvel, and basically, if he said he was gonna have a job in by noon tomorrow, it would be there by noon tomorrow, no matter how much he had to kill himself at night to get it all done. And he was really good at judging how much time he needed to complete a job, and then completing it in that time. And, for most people, that’s kind of a learned skill. And Tom, I don’t know if he learned at school or just was naturally gifted, but he had the ability to figure out how to get the work in on time. “When we first got to work on Star Wars together, it was #49 [July ’81] and it was a story written by Mike Barr called “The Last Jedi.” (They stole Mike’s title for the movie, but it had nothing to do with it.) But the opening shot is a Y-Wing, flying over a planet. And I don’t remember, but on the early Star Wars stuff, I might still have been doing layouts on that work and not finishes. I mean, for Tom [to have the penciler] doing finishes was almost a waste of time, because he was so good. He could take the layouts and could convert them into beautiful inks. A great looking splash page. “Another one, later in the run [#56, Feb. ’82], had Lando sitting or standing on a platform in Cloud City and you can see a bunch of the buildings behind him. And Tom did this elaborate job with shading film over the buildings to give them depth and dimension. And then added to the acetate overlay for the sky where he had put in some opaque white, so when it was against the tone, it became clouds. “To say that Tom went the extra mile is to understate how far Tom was actually going with that stuff. He was running the extra marathon to make that stuff look good. And, of course, as a penciler, well… besides just being in awe of what he was doing with the stuff, it was the work on Star Wars, he was like the perfect finish guy on that stuff. And it just came out really well. It was just gorgeous. I loved working on that book with him.” It was the inker’s trust in Simonson which prompted a request from Tom. “When I got into the business, my soft point was telling a story,” Tom said. “And I think that’s what hurt me with the Doctor Strange book, the first book I penciled. They were fine with the drawing, but not the storytelling. So, when we were at the end of our Star Wars run together, I asked Walt to just do pencil breakdowns, little figures, just to show the framing in each panel. It was very helpful because Walter was good at that. And it didn’t have to look like Walt’s work, it just looked like mine. But Walt had his strong points. So, we worked well together well on Star Wars, I think. He was as exuberant as I was about Star Wars, we were both big fans from the beginning. And it turned out that people really liked the books that we worked on.”

This spread: Splash page, The Avengers #81 [Oct. ’70]; poster promoting The Avengers #291 [May ’88]; Tom’s painted portrait of John Buscema, from Comic Book Artist #21 [July ’02]; and FOOM #14 [June ’76] cover by John Buscema and Tom, featuring their depictions of the She-Devil with a sword and a certain uncouth Cimmerian. Next page: Tom’s second act was as inker of the Star Wars series at Marvel between 1982–85, plus he painted the cover of #81 [Mar. ’84], trumpeting the return of Han Solo to the comic book series. (By the way, the Peerless One did ink the covers of #1–3 [July–Sept. ’77].) 63

Top: Street view of 1304 Glenwood Road, in the Flatbush neighborhood of Brooklyn, where Byron Cary Preiss grew up and the mailing address he used for his early fan efforts.

Inset right: Byron’s senior portrait taken for the 1969 Midwood High School Yearbook.

Below: Byron is highlighted in this group portrait of the Midwood High School “commissioners,” presumably a student leadership group at the public institution.

back of his head… and he said he wanted me. That’s how I got back.” Like many who were frustrated with Marvel in the late ’90s, Tom took on assignments elsewhere. However, his heart always remained at Marvel. “That was my second time at Marvel. I stayed a while, too… I think the most frequent [job with Byrne] was X-Men: The Hidden Years [’99–’01]. We did 22 issues of that.” About Tom’s original X-Men run with Neal Adams, he said, “John, like many others, [loved] those X-Men books. People will send me commissions now, it will be something with the X-Men, and they’ll say, ‘Do it in this style you did for those X-Men issues.’ What they’re really saying is: do it in the style that looks like Neal. Neal had a very distinct style; the way he did muscles and the way he did clothing, wrinkles, and a few other things. So that’s all I do. I was the one inking it, so I knew what pen point I used and everything else.” Tom continued, “John grew up in Canada and I guess he had nothing else to do up in the Canadian north, being snowed in. He must have just devoured those X-Men books. So it was just a matter of him getting a chance to redo it. He always said he had an idea and he approached Marvel with it. “Why not fill in those years or issues, at the end of that run [X-Men #56–63, 65]?” Thus, on X-Men: The Hidden Years, Tom said, “I think it originally was 22 issues. And, Marvel being Marvel, John got the 22 and then they said, that was it. And it was selling, but they pulled it. John pulled the works, too, and left. We ended it. But it was John wanting to recreate that era. It was important to him. And I don’t know how close we came. You can only do it once.” Tom added, “I’ve worked on other things with him. John is good. The Silver Surfer [one shot, ’82] I did with him, I remember using Craftint and everything else on it… John was always good to work with.” Howard Mackie was fortunate to pair Byrne and Tom together during his first full-gig as an editor with the inker. “My approach to editing was that the hardest part of the job was to pick the right team. Because that made the rest of the job easy. Tom inked Byrne on Star Brand [#11–14, Jan.–July ’88]. That was probably the first thing I recruited Tom to do as a full editor. My first editorial gig was I inherited the failing ‘New Universe.’ I was able to connive/trick John Byrne into writing and drawing the book (or doing breakdowns). He said, ‘Yeah, I’ll do it if you can get Palmer to do the finishes.’ That’s how that was able to come about.”

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Star Wars TM & © Lucasfilm Limited. Painting courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

BACK TO THE CANVAS While the work with John Byrne was short-lived, Tom always kept up with his TO WORK WITH A LEGEND first love: painting. Throughout the ’70s until the ’20s, he often indulged in that While doing the Marvel Comics version of the George Lucas science fiction film passion. “I love to paint, so I was painting advertising and doing other things. I franchise, Tom was able to transition into working on the Return of the Jedi was doing painted covers for Marvel. Whenever they had a movie cover to do, movie adaptation team with one of his heroes, magnificent artist Al Williamson. I was gonna do it. Not all of them, Bob Larkin was doing them, too. And there’s “There were a couple of artists that were asked to work on the book to help get it one that was never printed, Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band [intended for done on time, and one of them dropped out. So Archie Goodwin asked me and I the never-pubbed Marvel Super Special #7]. I still have the painting. They gave said, ‘Yeah, sure.’ It was penciling and inking. And, with that, he sent me a whole me the painting back, but they never used it. They canceled the book. It was bunch of photographs. I wound up using one of them for a painted cover for a printed in Europe, but not here. comic book we did further on, when Han Solo was released from carbonite [Star “But all of those paintings led into a lot of the commissions that I’m now Wars #81, Mar. ’84]. But in there were all these photographs of the scenes from getting. They’re not just Marvel stuff, they’re other things, like the Universal the movie and that’s what Al really needed. He needed the visual to do it all. It movie monsters.” Painting remained a purposeful pursuit for Tom during his was also very helpful to me, I really enjoyed that. There were some pages we entire work life. swapped back and forth. Whatever he was doing, I’d do some parts of it. I guess Something that was not as well-known was his penchant for creating humorhe liked doing certain shots and then he’d pass it on. I guess he had his fill with ous art and caricatures. “Jack Davis, he was a big part of my career also, because Star Wars. He was doing the [daily newspaper] strip at the time. I enjoyed that.” I started doing caricature paintings for ad agencies that were given as gifts for Tom added, “But Al was very protective. I think he had too many people [who clients who had a birthday or were retiring. And Jack Davis was my inspiration, worked with him] who were fans. And I tried not to be a fan. (I was, but I didn’t the watercolors and the ink drawings he did. What I did probably looked a little gush all over him or anything like that)… I got to see how he kind of put things bit like Jack Davis’ stuff, but the public that never even knew Jack Davis, MAD together. He was very accurate with everything. And I think it had a nice pattern magazine, or E.C., they loved it. Jack Davis, became somebody I really relied on look through it. So I didn’t help him so much as assist him.” for inspiration. I remember riding the subway, during the period where he was Where Star Wars had given Tom the joy of working with a personal artistic doing a lot of movie posters, and I was wondering if I could get one of them out hero and with people who would become longtime friends, it was a return to of the frame. I was always afraid that I’d get caught trying to steal a poster! Jack super-hero comics which brought him together, infrequently yet still memoraDavis must have done so many of those. Now of all the guys that were at E.C., bly, with another highly praised artist, John Byrne. “I did something with Byrne he must have been the most successful. He and Mort Drucker, I think, were the at DC, Wonder Woman,” Tom gratefully recalled of his one-shot inking over two best. I mean, there were other good ones, but there was something in that Byrne in Wonder Woman Annual #6 [July ’97]. “I was having fun there [at DC]. As artwork by both of them. Mort Drucker was unbelievable. In just a few lines, he a matter of fact, I always thank John, because John is the one who got me back was able to capture [everything]. So many people swiped him.” to Marvel. Marvel was trying to get John, and he had this Hidden Years in the One individual who received a painted cartoon from Tom was former Marvel

Silver Surfer TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Rom, the Spaceknight TM & © Hasbro, Inc.

editor and writer Howard Mackie. “As we’re talking, I’m focused on a painting that Tom did of me for my 40th birthday. He did this for a few of us at one point. I think Terry Kavanaugh has one, as well. And it’s Tom’s version, it’s close to a caricature, except that it looks exactly like me. I think my wife provided a photo reference for him and then he just started asking all of my friends, ‘What does Howard like?’ I’ve got knives strapped to me in the picture“ — Mackie is a knife aficionado. — “There’s a Ghost Rider poster hanging in the background, and there’s this Spider-Man head there. Somebody mentioned to him that my favorite food at the time was chicken wings. So he’s got a chicken there. It was really sweet. My wife had done a surprise party for me, and Tom presented it to me at a party. It was just lovely.” THE BEAT GOES ON During his career, Tom brought his inking line to Silver Age and Bronze Age artists, many who were giants in the field. In turn, he also worked with emerging generations, where he found himself fitting in as a wise colleague and mentor. One such pairing showed how much legends still mattered at Marvel. As Tom noted, “John Buscema left The Avengers and they got different people in to do the book. The first one was someone who has passed away since, Paul Ryan. Paul was always good. Mark Gruenwald was the editor of the book and Captain America was his character, the one he just loved. Paul was a thin guy, he did a lot of exercising, he was kind of really taut. And he made Captain America look like he was half the weight. I remember Mark saying, ‘Can you make him look like what John Buscema was doing?’ He was looking for a bulkier Captain America and I did that. I know Paul didn’t care for that. I told Mark, ‘You should tell him.’ Then I went through the writer I said, ‘Tell him this is not me, it’s Mark Gruenwald.’ But everybody was trying to have that ‘Buscema look.’ And, when he left, I think they sorely missed him. John was indispensable.” An artist making a name during the ’80s and ’90s was Butch Guice. His teaming with Tom proved a special one, as was the back-&-forth conversation between the two of them, which grew from there. “Well, the first time Tom and I worked together was on a Rom cover years earlier [#60, Nov. ’84]. I don’t recall if I was even aware he was inking it until I saw it on the stands. It was one of my first times drawing the character and probably a dismal piece of dreck in the pencil stage, but Tom worked his usual magic on it, and I was over the moon having finally gotten the opportunity to work with him. “The first interior work was a number of years later. If my memory is correct, it was for Avengers Assemble #14–15 [June– July ’13], two issues during the big “Age of Ultron event,” at the time. I knew he was going to ink the thing and, once again, I was thrilled, if admittedly a little bit intimidated by the entire prospect of penciling for someone whose work I respected as I do Tom. So, if I had any expectations going in, it was that he would need to be saving my artistic bacon from my own ineptitude.” Over the course of their collaboration, Guice mentioned Apartment 3-G comic strip artist Alex Kotz ky. “Tom’s response was that, in all his years in the industry, he had never before had a penciler mention Kotzky, and we quickly realized we shared a mutual appreciation of a number of the older newspaper strip artists… Long story short, we continued to kibitz back and forth from that point… almost entirely, we chat about mutual artists whose strip work we admire and enjoy such as Kotzky, Ken Bald, Lou Fine, and others… Just two guys who love the comics medium, both book and strip, and the history COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

of it all, and chatting about some near forgotten greats.” Guice continued, “My favorite collaboration with Tom however has probably been the pages he stepped in and inked in Winter Soldier [#5, July ’12]… Tom just nailed those pages.” (Tom said, “I just enjoyed working with [Guice]. I don’t know if I helped him become anything.) Guice shared, I remember doing something for Marvel, and I had to get the thing done in an hour. It was a splash page and it was when I was scanning it and sending it in. And I used chalk, charcoal, white chalk, and a whole bunch of things. I thought it looked pretty good, but he just flipped over it. I think he saw the original of that page. I was not doing ‘comic book,’ I was aware that I was going to scan it and that I could do something in black-&-white, and that’s what I went for.” (Of working with Guice, Tom said, “Whenever we’ve been together, we’ve had a very enjoyable time working together. He’s my audience. He’s applauding.”) Howard Mackie shared his thoughts about his work with Tom after the legendary inker’s passing. “Tom is probably one of the first professional superstars that I became friends with, and pretty quickly. Because Tom was a great teacher. I mean,

This page: Above is the final page of the Silver Surfer one-shot [’82], with art by John Byrne and Tom. Below: Rom #60 [Nov. ’84], art by Jackson Guice and Tom.

could be like pairing Tom with pencilers at Marvel. “Pencilers knew I had a great working relationship with him. And I had this conversation multiple times with people, where they would come to me and say, ‘I would really love if you could get Tom Palmer to ink for me.’ I’d say, ‘Okay, that’s great. But I want you to know, when it’s done, it is going to look like Tom Palmer inked it. I want you to really just listen to me now. It is going to be your pencils, but it’s going to be Tom Palmer’s inks. And Tom is an amazing artist. And there will be a lot of Tom Palmer in this job.’ (And I’m not going to name any names because I don’t want to cast aspersions.) Each time, they would come to me and say, ‘It’s so overwhelming.’ And I said, ‘Okay, were you not in my office when we had this conversation?’” Once, when Mackie was in a bind, “I just needed somebody to help ink some pages. And I would call him, and he’d say, ‘Well, I can do two or three.’ There’s one project in particular I’m thinking of; it was just a horrible book. It was called House II: The Second Story [Oct. ’87]. And it’s because we were bought by New World Pictures. I was given about a month-and-a-half to produce a 48-page, black-&-white book. And I had one artist do really loose breakdowns of the entire story. And I called in every marker I had out there. In this one book, I know Tom inked a couple of pages for me. Al Williamson inked a couple of pages for me. Klaus Janson inked a couple of pages for me. And then the guy from the stat room, who was just trying to break in to being an inker, he did some pages. It was basically, ‘If you’ve held a pen in your life. Great! You do it!’ Some of their first work got to be next to Palmer, Williamson, and Janson.”

he was a wonderful, wonderful man, obviously, but he really enjoyed teaching… I was very fortunate at the time that I came to work into comics. I got to work both on the freelance side with people like Tom Palmer, and Walt Simonson, and John Byrne, and John Romita, Jr. But I also think, even on staff, it was a time where John Romita, Sr., was the art director and there were people in the bullpen whose names you may or may not be familiar with — Danny Crespi and Morrie Kuramoto, and Jack Abel — and these guys taught me comics. Tom was one of the first that gave me such insight into the process of comics. And certainly, I immediately fell in love with his art style. As an assistant editor, I was working with he and John Buscema [on their ’80s run of The Avengers]. And so, I got to hold all those pages in my hands, I got to see John’s breakdowns and then Tom’s finishes. It made such an impact on me and it’s carried on because, if you look at my career as when I became a full editor, I’ve worked with Tom as often as possible “Tom would tell me things that were very informative for me. He told me that the letterer of the book made a difference to his approach to inking a page. It depended on who the letterer was, if they had a very spidery style, he would adjust his line weight to that, because he felt like the entire page needed to be organic.” With a chuckle in his voice, Mackie went on about what it

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band © Apple Corps Ltd. Painting courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

This page: Perhaps because of the movie’s poor critical reception, the Marvel Super Special #7 adaptation of Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band [1978], featuring a cover painting by Tom (above), was never published in the U.S., though there was a translated Dutch edition produced by JuniorPress in 1979 (cover below).

BREAK UP Tom’s difficult exit from Marvel, in 1996, was explained by former editor Greg Wright: “So, when [major across-the-line revamp] ‘Heroes Reborn’ happened, Marvel left the people who are working on those [preexisting] books to twist in the wind. And one of the people was Tom Palmer, of all people. Tom had a contract with Marvel, but the contract didn’t guarantee work, it just meant you have to only work for Marvel, they kind of guaranteed you a little higher rate. I think it gave them some health insurance or something. And when [the ‘Heroes Reborn’ creative teams] came in, [editorial] just took everybody off all The Avengers titles, and Tom was inking The Avengers, I think over Steve Epting [pencils], and they didn’t give them any work. Nothing. They left them out to twist and Tom actually had to ask for permission to break his contract, so that he could go to work at DC, who, of course, snapped him up immediately. And, when that happened, I can remember I was at a party and I tore into the higher-ups at Marvel and the editors, and I said, ‘How can you have left Tom Palmer, of all people, out to twist?’ Because Tom was a loyal Marvel guy. Tom broke his back to get pages done for everybody in that office. He’s a master inker. I just couldn’t believe it. I was so angry that they would do that to Tom. But that was literally the moment, at Marvel, when I knew it was over for me to remain on staff.” Walter Simonson shared how that exit introduced Tom to a new challenge at DC. “Editorial attitudes at Marvel shifted, and Tom and John [Buscema] were both let go of The Avengers, because I remember Tom’s last job he was inking. He lives not that far from me. I was over at his house and he let me ink one small figure of Captain American over John Buscema. I did not do a great job. But it wasn’t a very big figure, and no one looked at it and said, ‘What happened to Tom? This really sucks.’” Simonson continued, “But I took him up to DC, because I’ve done a bunch of work with the guys there [and] because one of the things about Tom is that he really has the old fashioned

2010 TM & © Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, Inc. Painting courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

mentality that you’re the guy in the house, you provide for your family. That is your job. And so, even though DC’s rates were less than at Marvel, he went over to DC looking for work. I think, at some point, he was given some of Denys Cowan’s work to ink, which was quite different from the work that he’d inked from John Buscema and Neal Adams. Denys was very design-oriented and was heavily influenced by an Italian artist named Sergio Toppi, who I also was heavily influenced by. We had studios next to each other. All I remember is Denys eventually had more books about Toppi and Toppi’s art than I did. But, when Tom was given the work [by Cowan], he was really nonplussed by it, I would say, in looking at it going, ‘What the heck is this? Where is this coming from?’ “And we’re having a chat about it, he just kind of came up and got the job. And I said, ‘Oh, Sergio Toppi is a guy you need to be looking at.’ And he did not know Toppi’s work. So I loaned him several of my books of Toppi (which, I will say right now, he did give back). And seeing Toppi’s work, I think, really opened his eyes to what Denys was doing… I think it gave a real handle on what was going on in the art. “Tom also was very flexible, in that he understood that, essentially, you’re selling stuff to a buyer. And, to that degree, and sometimes a big degree, you have to provide something the buyer wants. If the buyer doesn’t want it, you’re not going to have a job for very long. And he was extremely cognizant of that and worked hard to provide the kind of art that the buyer wanted. And, when art [styles] changed, in some ways, he was willing to change with it and tried his best to match those changes. And, I think, that was an example, there. Eventually he did go back to Marvel, which he was happy about, because they paid better, at least back in those days. He was willing to take the work I showed him, study it, understand what it meant, and then apply that to the inks he was laying down. And that was that kind of flexibility. Not everybody has that.” Tom’s son explained, “He understood it was a commercial medium at the time. So, if he wanted to continue getting work, he kind of had to change his style a little bit to go along. There were pencilers at that time, older pencilers, who really changed their style to continue getting work. I don’t think he had to go to that extreme in his inking, but he had to adapt a little bit.” WORKING WITH TOM Graham Nolan was an artist with whom Tom had worked on a small number of DC assignments. However, the impression the veteran inker made upon the Batman penciler was tremendous. As Nolan explained, “Tom’s style is very powerful. All you need to do is look at lighting or clothes wrinkles to know that Tom did the job. But, if the designs and storytelling are strong enough, the penciler will come through. “The first project we did together was an issue of Detective Comics [#704, Dec. ’96]. I loved it. So, when we were looking for an inker for the Batman: Bane of the Demon [#1–4, Mar.–June ’98] mini-series, I suggested Tom. The editor was hesitant because he didn’t think Tom could handle the machinery (some of it took place in the Kobra lair which is basically the Hydra lair). I’m like, ‘Are you kidding me? Look at all the machinery in The Avengers he did!’ Tom got hired and he knocked it out of the park like I knew he would!” Pat Olliffe began cementing his artistic legend in comics while working on a most auspicious project with Tom. “The first time I worked with Tom was on a Dracula: Lord of the Undead [#1–3, Dec. ’98] mini-series, so to say I was excited is an understatement! I guess I didn’t have any expectations, necessarily. I was just hoping I could do the project justice and that Tom COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

wouldn’t look at my work and think, ‘What the heck is this guy doing?!’ Fortunately, for me, he was so great to work with, very kind. I enjoyed the experience and think we put out a pretty good book! “The second time Tom and I worked together was on Scooby Apocalypse [#28–36, Oct. ’18–June ’19]. We weren’t originally paired up as penciler/inker. I had done a couple fill-ins on the book and then DC asked if I could come on board full-time. They looked for a regular inker, took a look at a couple very talented guys, found Tom was available and felt he had the perfect look for a book like Scooby. I was very happy to be working with him again, he brought a great loose/grittiness to the look of the book. I was disappointed we didn’t get a longer run. That was a project I had hoped we would all continue on for a long time. After Scooby, DC moved us on to Hawkman, again feeling Tom gave the book the right look. Lots of wings to render! Great fun working on a classic DC character!” J.M. DeMatteis, who wrote the series, chimed in about Scooby Apocalypse. “I don’t know about others being considered, but when you hear the name, ‘Tom Palmer,’ you know you’re getting the very best; so, I was thrilled when they told me he was coming aboard.”

This page: Tom produced cover paintings for the two-issue series reprinting the Marvel Super Special #37 [’84] comics adaptation of 2010, the film released in 1984.

Above: Tom painted this spread featuring Star-Lord for Marvel Super Special #10 [Winter ’79] in a tale otherwise penciled by Gene Colan and inked by Tom. Below: Tom did his best to remain current as evidenced by his inking John Romita, Jr., for the creator-owned series, Kick-Ass [’10].

book to see the inker. Because it was beyond inks. It was art to me.” Garney concluded, “So I was honored to work with him. Eventually — and this is no slight on Tom — I had to eventually get out from under him, because I needed to develop my own look as an artist, myself. That’s never to take away from the fact that I was always honored to have worked with him. And couple that with an amazing friendship, it really is a rare thing, I think, that most people can’t lay claim to. I’m very fortunate to know him. So that’s how I feel about him. He’s a real friend.” “Ron Garney is a close friend,” recalled Tom of their tightknit camaraderie. “I have other friends, but Ron is someone I can talk to… he used to call me when he was going through a lot in his life. He would call me and we’d talk for hours. He would do most of the talking, I would listen, and I told my little kumquats, you know, along the way. But I never repeated any of it. So I think he trusted me.” Lee Weeks, another of Tom’s close colleagues, remembered, “At that time, I was doing such tight pencils on everything. There was always a sense of trying to outdo the previous job. I would feel the awareness and a comfort to it, you know, which stemmed from working with Al Williamson for about three or four years, as I did back in the early ’90s. Not that you slack, but there can be some hovering over the pencils, when you’re not sure how someone’s going to interpret something. It’s just the way that it is. I don’t mean to slight other inkers. But not all of them have the same understanding of drawing. And I think it was much more common when Tom was coming up, and before Tom, because all the inkers came out of drawing. So, sometimes, I was trying to make sure that everything’s communicated clearly to the inker. And there’s certainly not the pressure to #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Star-Lord TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Kick-Ass TM & © Mark Millar & John Romita, Jr.

Ron Garney is another recent colleague who grew into a trusted friendship with Tom, and he shared about that special relationship. “One of Tom’s greatest gifts is his ability to make people feel comfortable and trust him. He was always very open to every conversation and one of the best listeners and givers in a conversation. We would talk and talk, and share each other’s lives. And the talk would sometimes carry on for a few hours at a time… There was a period where we were talking a couple times a week, for a number of years. And then, that sort of started fading out a bit as time went on, as life happens, and things like that. However, I feel exactly the same way, that out of everyone in my career, he’s probably in the top two I consider to be a very close friend that I’ve met through comics. “The first time I met him, I had just gotten into Marvel, and I started on Moon Knight, and he was the inker on it. And I knew who he was. And I was so over the moon, geeking-out that I was getting to work with this guy. To work with Tom Palmer, for me, it was just something that I didn’t even know if I really felt deserving of it, because I hadn’t even been in the business that long. But here I was, working with this amazing legend (and beyond legend, just a brilliant artist). So I felt honored to have him on me. He’s such a strong artist, so great, so amazing, you have to submit yourself to him to his art, because he’s such a strong inker. That’s not to say he doesn’t work very hard to do justice to whoever he was working over. He did. However, he was such a strong artist in his own right, that it almost seemed that he should be penciling and inking these things. Because he’s so great, all the way around. He knew how to draw anatomy, he knew how to tell a story. His embellishments are so organic, and instinctive, and lush. He was one of the rare people that you would buy the

Incredible Hulk TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

do that with somebody of Tom’s caliber, or Al Williamson’s, and a few others… I was incredibly excited to be working with a guy that made some of the very favorite books I grew up with.” “Lee is a special guy,” Tom said. “Lee is good at everything. He’s good. Even to this day, he will send me some stuff. He was always curious, when we would talk on the phone, about color. He sent something to me recently. He’s doing coloring, on his own work but it’s very modern-looking. He sent me some samples and said, ‘What do you think about this?’ It’s different, it’s taking a chance with the coloring, and there were some beautiful, harmonious colors around together. His linework, his drawing, is perfect. And I guess he was just trying to make his color have some uniqueness to it. From what I’ve seen lately, it does. I said, ‘You finally did it. You made it.’” Where Tom spent a good amount of his career working over heavier-lined pencilers, Khoi Pham offered, much like P. Craig Russell or Michael W. Kaluta, a more “art nouveau” approach to the page. “I remember working on his stuff,” Tom said. “It’s almost like he had (and maybe he did) traced it off a sketch, because it was perfect. You didn’t see erasures. If it was a shape, it was there. I tried to stay close to it and just make a line-weight going around a corner a little bit heavier. That is how you make things have weight or volume: if you go around the corner, you get a little bit heavier, and then another corner you go lighter. I think I did that. But it was always staying true to what he was penciling. I enjoyed working on it, I really did. I remember [the pages] so much, there was so much work in it, an unbelievable amount of work. He gave Marvel their money’s worth Sometimes I have to push guys, I have to draw into it, or add something, or do something different, or come up with something, but with Khoi Pham I just had to keep with what he had there, but also capture it, don’t just make it look like he used a ballpoint pen. I was always amazed at some of the stuff he did. He was quite good at it.” Khoi Pham had mutual praise for the inker. “I never had the pleasure of meeting Tom in person. I was obviously a huge fan. Classics! So, when I started penciling for Marvel, I kind of evolved over time, but when I started, especially, it’s a looser, open style. A lot like the earlier generations of artists. It’s not like these newer pencilers, where everything is super-tight, and the inking is really just basically 90% tracing. But because I was working in this newer era, it was just kind of hard to find fits for me in terms of inkers. So, with a lot of these newer inkers, it makes sense, because of the time constraints, the more information you give them, the better. And then that makes a lot of sense in terms of how modern artists work. But I like the collaboration of it. And I like giving every person on the team an opportunity to say something, and have their own voice come through. So working with Tom was great. [Tom has been an] amazing artist his entire career. He understood what I was trying to do. That was really great, working with Tom in that way. “I was familiar with Tom, but it wasn’t until I started working with him that I actually started deep diving and realizing, ‘Holy crap, I’m freaking lucky!’ This is amazing, the people I got to work with; Paul Neary, Scott Hanna. Tom didn’t start out as an inker, so he knew what I felt like. He knew what I was going through, in COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

terms of completing all the steps in the process.” His work with Tom was a link to the past for Pham. “Whenever I think of Tom Palmer, aside from just, ‘I send my pencils off, I know it’s gonna be fine, I don’t even have to look.’ Besides that, when I get the original art back, everybody says, ‘Does it smell like cigarettes?’ It absolutely smells like cigarette smoke. But now it’s a nice memory to have. The senses are engaged. There’s a smell that comes with it that’s very evocative, that old school, New York. I imagine working in the Marvel bullpen, coming into work with a suit, smoking cigars and cigarettes. It made me feel connected to how it used to be. And that’s my takeaway, in terms of working with Tom. I appreciate that it’s almost like a time machine that helped me, through the mail, feel like, ‘You know what, I’m in the bullpen. I’m part of that crew that used to do it that way.’ That was moving to me.” Another penciler Tom enjoyed memorable runs with — Incredible Hulk, The Eternals, Kick-Ass — was John Romita Jr. “Oh, it’s always fun with John,” Tom said. “He knows his business. He knows his work. He does very good work. He amazed me when we were working on Kick-Ass [#1–8, Apr. ’08–Mar. ’10], because I would also get the script to read and I’d wait to see what John would do. With John, it was almost like watching a movie being directed. John is very, very good at capturing what the writer is trying to convey. And he’s very precise. Perfect stuff. “First, we did Kick-Ass, and then Hit-Girl [#1–5, Aug. ’12–Apr. ’13]. I had so much fun working on those books. It was just very well done. John had just an outlined drawing, so it was like a cut out. He didn’t want a lot of blacks in the artwork, so I started using a little gray wash to show the colorist, Dean White, the form. He just loved it. So I kept that up and that kept growing, where my black-&-white artwork had a halftone quality to it. And, when I got to see it colored and printed, holy smokes! People were asking me privately, ‘What are you doing? How does your stuff look like that?’ Well, it wasn’t just me or John, it was the colorist that was bringing that look to it. Because something happened that muted the color, or when it was supposed to be in shadow, it was the gray underneath. I enjoyed doing it, and I think Dean loved having that halftone in front of him rather than having to create it. I think everybody was pushing that part of it. John gave it to me, and I gave it to Dean, and Dean brought it all together with the color.” As Howard Mackie mentioned, Tom Palmer was an outstanding teacher, certainly with his colleagues, and numerous others echoed that same sentiment. Yet, oddly enough, when Tom was in an actual classroom setting with students, he came to a decision about teaching. It was while doing a favor for longtime friend Joe Orlando, when Tom learned formal instruction wasn’t a calling. “In the 1990s, Joe was teaching at Visual Arts, and he called me one day, and said that his classes were busting at the doors. He asked if I’d take over a class for him. I said, ‘Joe, I can’t do that. I never thought about teaching.’ “After three times of Joe asking, I finally said, ‘All right, Joe.’ I tried to [hand out class assignments] like I had [worked on] at the Frank Reilly School, but it was on a very light scale. I found a distaste for teaching because it wasn’t like the kids who were at Reilly’s. Joe would give me stuff for them to do as homework and the next day they wouldn’t do it or a week later. So I was frustrated.” 69

else stayed with the full colors, the rich colors. Which you don’t have anything rich [on the page] if everything is from the same area of the chart. The satisfaction of the printed page really looked good to me. That’s what I did with Neal and that’s what I did on Doctor Strange. They only paid about two bucks a page [in the early years] to color. You didn’t get a lot of nice work being done unless your heart was in it. Mine was!” Tom’s friend (and former assistant editor-turned editor-turned special needs educator) Greg Wright, remembers well the experience of Tom assisting him as he began his own coloring career at Marvel. “The thing about Tom was, he was pretty much the first creator who tried to be my friend right off the bat. And when he learned that I was starting to do color, he essentially just offered to be my mentor. And I barely knew the guy at the time. And he would take a huge amount of time, every single time he sent pages, and I would call him, and we would talk about them, and he would explain why he did what he did, and how he worked. He was a painter, of course, and he would kind of explain how he used painterly techniques as an inker, and how he did it as a colorist. “Because the people doing the separations back then, they weren’t artists. They were a little old ladies with Q-tips putting globs of dye on various sheets of acetate to make up the three shades of the three colors that we had. So he had figured out how to make their job easier, which made it easier when his color went through, that they had an easier time doing it right. And it came out better. So he sent me all kinds of material to sort of help teach me how to be a better colorist very quickly. And that was a pretty rare thing, and just was something he did out of the goodness of his heart. He didn’t ever have an agenda, because his job was secure. And that was amazing to me, that he took all that time and effort, and genuinely got to know me as a person, right off the bat. When I finally got to meet him in person, he’d meet you with a big hug. And he would look at my work that I was doing and he would show me on his work what he was doing, and show me how he did this and how he did that. It was amazing. “It was so bizarre to have this creator who, once I had kind of researched him, I realized what a big deal he was. He wasn’t just some guy on the phone #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Beatles TM & © Apple Corps Limited. Painting courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

COLORING: THE THIRD RAIL Coloring in comics has become a digital process over the last 30 years. However, when Tom Palmer entered the field, it was a much different procedure. With the very earliest of his comics work, Tom chose to dive in and learn how to color for printing, which he did from a mighty Marvel mainstay, Marie Severin. “Oh, she was fantastic!” Tom exclaimed. “I remember going up there after the first Doctor Strange that I inked. Everything was [printed] in two colors, green and purple. And I went through the roof. I called Roy and I said, “Can I color the book?” He said, “Sure. Come up and see Marie.” So I went up to Marvel and Marie was in the [production department] and she was a jack of many trades. She used to do everything in that back room. We met and she was immediately nice. I said, ‘By the way, I’m working in a studio with Jack Kamen.’ She said, ‘Oh, “Laughing Boy Jack.”’ Jack was always laughing. He always had a joke to tell you. And I had a grand old time, just talking to Marie. “She showed me very quickly how to do the coloring; you had a color chart, and you had all those little bottles of Dr. Martin dyes. She shared, ‘This is how you make gray, and this is how you make flesh,’ and I was off and running. I asked her how long it would take for somebody to color a book. She said the name of a colorist that they used a lot who was good. But he only used certain colors and he colored very quickly. This guy would do two books a day for a couple of dollars a page. Well, I took the book back home and I was still coloring the book three days later. I was doing little watercolor paintings. I finally sent it in, I don’t know who it was, Roy or somebody said, ‘Gee they’re really nice, but they’re only taking this as a sample to see what color they should put there. They’re not going to be rendered like this.’ “So I slowly backed down what I was doing. The first book that I saw printed after coloring, I had to get a bunch of copies. It was the ‘Sons of Satannish’ [Doctor Strange #175, Dec. ’68]. I found my calling. So, after that, I was coloring regularly. And then, when I got to work with Neal, he and I would swap coloring, because he said I was the only one that went down to the bottom rows of the color chart; to the side where they would have two or three colors mixed. Everyone

Captain America TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Color sketch courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

doing work. I didn’t realize he was as big a deal as he was.” Wright described his coloring X-Men: The Hidden Years #14 [Jan. ’01] with Tom and also the care with which his mentor presented his colors for a book. “There was an issue that Tom actually did half of it and I did half the color. And they sent me all of the guides back. I had Tom’s guides and I said, ‘Oh, Tom, they sent me your guides. I’ll send those back to you.’ He goes, ‘No, you can keep them.” So I still have some of the guides that Tom did. For quite a while, I just really looked at what he was doing because, by that point, you didn’t have to worry about the codes, you could just do what you wanted. “But his coloring, you know, they look like little paintings. They don’t look like color guides, they looked like these little paintings. He would do all the colors on The Avengers and he would mount them on cardstock and they would look like little paintings. And I asked him, ‘Why do you go to so much trouble?’ And he said, ‘If you present it to them looking that good, they’ll take more care.’ And he was right. Because, when the separations would come back from the little old ladies who had done it, they were better on everything that Tom colored than anybody else’s. And it was because he had done a better job of presenting it. And the other thing was, he understood how to make the job easier on the separators. Unless you’ve actually done a comic separation on your three sheets of acetate, for all three colors, it’s hard to understand what a pain it is. You basically paint each shade on a sheet, and then they take that and they shoot that as on the film. And that’s where you get those three different dot screens. But Tom made an effort to understand how they made the separations work and how the printing worked.” It was that research, care, and knowledge which made Tom unique among his colleagues. “I like to say Tom Palmer’s stuff was colorist-proof,” Wright added. “So, if a bad colorist wound up working over something Tom Palmer inked, it wasn’t going to ruin the page. Whereas there are lots of comics that have been ruined by bad coloring. When I got to color Tom, part of it was really easy. I wasn’t worried about it being bad, I was worried about if I colored it someway that Tom doesn’t like. I didn’t care if John Byrne didn’t like it; I was only concerned about Tom. And he was always very happy. So that was a big deal, to get the Tom Palmer seal of approval.” GOOD DAYS AND SAD Tom alluded to the famous Frank Capra film as he assessed his past, but it wasn’t always wondrous. “Looking back, I’ve had a wonderful life. I worked at home, I had my two children grow up with me. I can say, ‘Well, I grew up with my kids.’ Sadly, we lost our daughter a couple years ago to breast cancer. That was rough to lose her. Still is. She was our first born.” Jean Palmer, born in 1971, passed away in 2019. “I don’t know if I can explain how hard that was, when she passed,” shared Tom and Ann’s only son, Tom, Jr. “It definitely was a special relationship. It was his first child. That’s my sister, but it’s always his daughter. I don’t I don’t know if I’ll ever realize how difficult that was. And I don’t think he did either. I don’t think that’s something you ever get over.” “Our son, Tom, is still here,” the elder Tom said. “Now we have grandchildren, and I can see now how our family reinvented itself. The grandchildren bring back the same pleasures that you had with your own kids. I don’t want to make this into a Jimmy Stewart story, but I’ve been very happy over the years. My wife and I met kind of young, in our early 20s. We got married and didn’t have children right away. I was still going to school and when I left that, that’s when I started working at COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

home. Because I was home, the children were used to me, and they had a mother and father around. I think that was helpful to them. The teachers at school would find out I was home, and they’d ask my kids to ask me to come with them [on field trips]. ‘We’re going to this museum over in New York.’ I’d come just to keep the boys in line while they kept the girls in line. It was nice being part of all that. A lot of fathers don’t work at home, they’re gone all day.” Tom, Jr., shared, “He had a studio in the house. He did have space with an advertising agency that he was doing work for, he had a desk there. He tried going there to do work, but there are actually a lot of distractions there, because you’re around people in a studio setting. At home, in the first house we lived in, there was a studio in the basement, so he was definitely out of the way of the rest of the household. He could kind of sequester himself away, and get more work done there. “When you’re a kid, it’s kind of routine, it was ordinary to have my dad around all the time, you think this is the way everyone else is. But it’s not. You think everyone’s dad is at home, but then you eventually realize, ‘Oh, wait, this is kind of weird.’ Especially in the 1980s. It wasn’t as normal as it is now, especially after COVID, for people to be working at home. It was definitely unusual to have both of your parents at home when you’re growing up.” Tom, Sr., had lost his own father when he was young. He was motivated to be present, regardless of his work schedule.

Above: CBC reader Jami Johnson contacted the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library about this issue’s cover art, which was made into a lithograph and a copy presented to the White House back in 1987! The Library shared the President’s reply specifically mentioning the Peerless One and a video link regarding the painting, https://www.youtube. com/watch?v=wJTDpUv91fQ. Great work, Jammin’ Jami! Here is the artist’s rough. Page 69: Great full page penciled by Lee Weeks and inked by Tom, Incredible Hulk #77 [Mar. ’05]. Previous page: Tom’s great wraparound cover for Marvel Comics Super Special #4 [July ’78], featuring the Fab Four!

This spread: The different stages Tom produced to painstakingly create a private commission featuring the Universal movie monsters of yore.

umbrella and I’d fall asleep on the sand because I was up late working while everyone was sleeping. And they’d have a ball in the ocean.” One of his favorite memories came by way of his son. After a lifetime of not truly knowing his heritage, a visit to Ellis Island by the younger Palmer closed a chapter of missing pages for his dad. “I went there when a friend from college came to visit me in the summer of 2001,” shared Tom Jr. “I was able to use one of the exhibits there to search the records and found the manifest for the ship my grandfather was on when he came to the United States. The dates on the records were different from what my dad knew at the time, so it placed his father in this country earlier than he thought. And being able to see the documents related to my grandfather definitely had an impact on my dad since he lost his father when he was still a kid.” During our conversations, Tom, Sr., would jokingly say he was “getting on the [analyst] couch” or “stepping into a confessional,” when sharing his story. As a way of coming full circle, Tom recalled the ailment of his youth and reiterated the need to repair his hip, the same hip which forced a young Tom Palmer to commit to drawing in his backyard, that same hip which bedeviled him for a lifetime. “That had followed me for years,” Tom said. “I needed a hip replacement. I had two young children, and I was a freelancer, I could not do it and spend a few weeks in the hospital. I couldn’t do it. So I just put it off and took a few Excedrin. And then finally, about 20 years ago, I heard about an orthopedic doctor who was doing hip replacements. He did them very quickly, with very few side effects to keep you walking. He said, ‘You’ll be walking the same day.’ I couldn’t believe it. I asked how long I would be away from my drawing board, and he said, ‘You’ll be back doing that the next day.’ He was a miracle worker. He put a little incision in my back, a small incision, and somehow he would go in there and pop the femur out of the hip and cut that off and put a new one in. And he was right. I walked out of the hospital the same day, 12 hours later.” #36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Universal monsters TM & © Universal City Studios, Inc. All courtesy of Tom Palmer, Jr.

As Tom, Jr., related, “I didn’t notice he was putting effort into it, but then, looking back at it, he probably did, in his own way. He definitely worked a lot, but he also made sure he had time for the family. I’m sure he could have spent that time getting work done, but then that would have eaten up time that he could have spent with everyone else. I never saw him frazzled, in the sense of panicking for deadlines and stuff like that, because he kept a good balance to it and he really didn’t show that it was hard to manage. But doing all that meant that he spent a lot of nights working into the late hours while everyone else was asleep.” Tom, Sr., said, “I’m sitting here pining for the old days. They were a lot of fun. I was doing advertising and I used to be up half the night getting that work done. I delivered the advertising jobs in the morning and came back home, took a nap, and then I’d be doing comics on the weekend. “When I was painting, my hands would get chapped, so when I went to bed, I put hand cream on. My wife said, ‘Let me get you some gloves from the drug store.’ So the routine became that I would put lotion on my hands and then put gloves on before I went to bed at four or five in the morning after finishing up advertising work. My wife would get the kids ready for school and then told them, ‘Go and say goodbye to your father.’ I remember one day they came into the bedroom and I guess I took my hands out of the covers to say goodbye and the kids were laughing a little bit. My daughter said, ‘How come you look like Mickey Mouse?’ In my grogginess, it took 30 seconds to hit me that it was the white gloves. You know when you have that laugh where you don’t make a sound? To this day, I still remember it. I was in stitches.” Where working long hours were the norm for Tom, he greatly enjoyed being there with his kids on vacations. Even when work came along. “In the summertime, we’d rent a house down at the Jersey Shore, put the dog in a kennel for a couple weeks, and then I’d go down and sit in the kitchen and work on comic books. I’d wake up in the morning and go out on the sand on a blanket with an

LOVE FOR THE MAN Klaus Janson, along with Tom, a fellow luminary chiseled into the Mount Rushmore of Comic Book Inkers, has boundless appreciation for his colleague. “Tom was very unique in terms of bringing in a style that was a little bit more contemporary, and a little bit more modern. And some of that has to do with his solid education in art, and the teachers that taught him, and the regimen that he learned and was tutored in and was taught in school, that covered all of the aspects of art. It wasn’t about learning one discipline. He learned color theory, for instance. How many of us get a chance to learn color theory or how many of us that are working in the field understand color theory? So he has such a solid foundation, that he brought many, many disciplines and knowledge of those disciplines into his work. So he, like Neal Adams, was at a turning point in terms of the evolution of what comics looked like. “Tom was just an extraordinary influence on me. They reprinted the George Pérez Beatles book [Marvel Super Special #4, July ’78] that I had inked over George and, I swear to God, I looked at it and I thought, ‘Did I ink this or was this Tom?’ Because it was so influenced by Tom, it was almost line for line. So there was a period of time when I was really intent on mimicking him. Because I loved his work and still love his work. “Dick Giordano, way back, when I was a kid (so going back 40–50 years), told me that before he started inking or working, he would look at somebody else’s work to inspire him. And I do the same thing. And always invariably, Tom is in there. Always. You know, I have a stack of his work. ‘How do you solve this problem?’ You go to your favorite artists, and you look at how they solved that problem. And Tom was number one in that area. Just amazing work. And the body of work that he has; Walter Simonson, and Gene Colan, and John Buscema, and Gil Kane. Just incredible stuff. And the first time I saw Tom’s work was when he penciled a short story. I think it was in the House of Mystery or the House of Secrets. And he penciled a Doctor Strange story that was inked by Dan COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

Adkins. So, you know, I think I was very well versed in his body of work.” Janson compared Giordano’s work to Tom’s. “That’s something that I’ve been thinking about for decades. Let me say this, Dick was my mentor and I owe him so much. Truly, he was my second dad, like mentors can be. And, every day, there’s an argument in my head: who’s the better inker? And I have to say it’s Tom. And it is Tom because he had the ability to create a vision and follow it to an extent that Dick was not able to. And I think, to some degree, Dick would maybe even admit that. I’m not sure about that. Dick was a journeyman in the sense that he did what he had to do for the company and for the books that he was working on. And Tom was, I think, much more of a creative person. “And that’s not to, in any way, diminish Dick’s work. Because I’d be the first one to tell you that I am a combination of 90% Dick and Tom. There’s absolutely no doubt about that (and the 10% leftover is Wally Wood or Alfonso Font). But it’s 90% Dick Giordano and Tom Palmer. Those are the two best guys. Joe Sinnott would be the third one. But I think the difference between the two of them is that Dick had a straighter line, and he was very smart in the way he used angles, and a straight — in contrast with a rounder — line. And Tom, I think has a more fluid line, there aren’t that many edges to Tom’s inking. It’s a bit softer, if I could use that word. “And Tom invested a lot in backgrounds and Dick did not. Dick had a feeling that you only do what’s necessary. I’m of the school that I like to give the reader something to look at. And so I happen to believe in creating a spectacle, or creating detail, or creating Zip-A-Tone, or texture, or color effects, or color holes… all that stuff that Tom was exploring. All of that stuff, I believe, gives the reader something to look at, a little bit of spectacle. And whereas Dick was much more about only what is necessary, more of an Alex Toth approach, which, of course, is extremely valid. But I would layer the spectacle, as Tom, I think, would, at least that’s what I take from him, on top of what is necessary, so that you are able to do both. And I think that’s how Tom was able to be as versatile and holistic in 73

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his approach, where he never ignored backgrounds. His backgrounds were as fulfilled as well as his foreground figures.” Butch Guice remains in awe of his late friend. “I started collecting comics as kid, in the very early 1970s and, all through my collecting youth, Tom was always my favorite inker over any penciler — and that is during an age when the industry had a bunch of inking legends (and soon to be legendary upstarts) like Wally Wood, Joe Sinnott, Dick Giordano, Al Williamson, Frank Giacoia, Klaus Janson, Joe Rubinstein, Terry Austin, Bob McLeod, and others, plying the trade regularly in the monthly titles. There was something about Tom Palmer’s work which captivated my young artistic soul, inspired me, as well, in my own early efforts, that slick beautiful appearance of effortless grace and illustrative quality. (I say ‘appearance of effortless grace’ well aware of the irony, because I know Tom actually worked his artistic butt off on those pages and covers, but he is so skilled he made it look like the easiest sort of thing to pull off.) I can’t even guess how many years I tried to emulate his ink line before finally accepting I would never come close to what he does.

“I just want to thank you, Tom, for being such an inspiration to my snotnosed, young self, both in showing me just how good inking could be, as well as how a professional should conduct themselves. Every new piece by you I have discovered has been a new treasure for me. You truly are a class act, my friend, and I am both humbled and honored to know you and have worked with you.” Pat Olliffe’s final thoughts on Tom are as concise and exuberant as possible. “Tom, it was a true pleasure to get to work with you over the years, you’re a master of your craft and a hell of a nice guy, too! A combination that’s hard to beat!” “I think Tom influenced a whole bunch of people,” shared longtime colleague Sal Buscema. “I know he was an influence on me, I learned a lot just by looking at his stuff. I mean, the quality of his line and the way he followed the drawing of the people that he was inking, which was something that I was very, very conscious of because, having been a penciler myself, I wanted the inkers to follow what I drew. But, unfortunately, there were a lot of people in the business that didn’t do that. They would completely change what you penciled. And I was adamant about that. I made certain that whenever I inked anybody that I was true to the penciler, which I think was, professionally, it was an absolute necessity.” Regarding Tom’s fidelity in respecting the penciler’s craft, Buscema said, “If anything, he made you look good. He made me look good.” Khoi Pham said, “I never met Tom. So talking about him really makes it like, ‘Wow, I really wish I had done more to meet up with him.’ He was just a drive away, but he always felt like he was a member of a rock band. When I saw pictures of Tom, he looked like a member of the Rolling Stones. He’s a rock star. So I think I really wish I had an opportunity to sit down and just chat with him. He sounds super-interesting. When we’re starting out, like a lot of us are, it’s really about getting the job, and then the craft. But, later on in my life and career, I’ve learned that it’s the people. It’s the people, and I really should have focused as much on that as I did on the craft side of things. And Tom is definitely at the top of the list of people I wish I had appreciated more. I wish I was wiser then, to really appreciate these wonderful human beings in our lives.” Roy Thomas still greatly appreciates their work together. “To me, the classic Palmer inking is the stuff he did originally with me on several books, The X-Men and The Avengers, and then, over the next few years, on Colan with Tomb of Dracula, and a few other things like that. To me, that was the classic Palmer. And it wasn’t a short-term thing. He was inking that kind of classic work for a decade or so. And as far as I know, he kept on doing it.” Walter Simonson was astounded by Tom’s work ethic through changing times. “Tom worked hard to be flexible because he understood that was a way to keep the job over decades in comics. I mean, the comics that come around now don’t look anything like comics when I got in the business in ’72. Comics from ’72 don’t look much at the comics from ’52 or ’42. So things do change. And, if you want to keep a job in comics for a long time, you have to learn to kind of go with the times, whatever it is, or find some other work. “One of the things that Tom did right, that I always admired, was that he didn’t like the idea of having all his eggs in one basket. Which is to say, he wasn’t certain that being an inker in comics was the only thing he should be doing. And, as a result, he did a lot of illustration work, corporate reports, and things that the public would not have seen, but illustrations as needed, including color illustrations. He did some painted portraits that I’ve seen that were quite good. So he always felt that he ought to have a couple of different pots on the fire just in case the fire went out on one of the pots, he would still have something to fall back on. Again, that’s extra work. Doing comics is a full-time job and the idea that you’re going to do that and still produce illustrations for other companies outside comic books is a lot of work and a lot of time. And Tom was happy to put the time.” Walter and Louise Simonson have spent a good amount of time with Tom and his wife, Ann, over the years. They were much more than colleagues with Tom, as Walter shared, “He and his wife are good friends of ours. We haven’t seen them since the pandemic, which I’m very sorry about, but we talk on the phone. I usually call up just to check in and see how they’re doing. And that’s great. At the same time, I’m just young enough that Tom, he’s about four years older than me, but he was in the business about four or five years earlier, and producing fabulous work, so, every so often I can sit back and say, ‘God damn, I know Tom Palmer. He’s a friend.’

“So, really, as far as the work is concerned, he produced quality work, he produced it on time, he was willing to be flexible on it in order to try and figure out what the people that were buying the work wanted. And he was an extremely hard worker at a time when, it’s true of comics, some guys are and some guys aren’t. But Tom really put the pedal to the metal and worked his ass off to get the stuff done. And he was able to do it on time and with extremely high quality. So he’s just, like, the best. But he’s also a good guy. He and his wife are very sweet people. And we’re happy to know them and we’re lucky to know them.” Howard Mackie shared some of joyful memories of his family with the Palmer crew. “Our relationship was just an extension of the friendship that we had developed when I was on staff. We would talk all the time. It would be an hour or two on the phone with me just talking and Tom finishing up his pages. “We spent a lot of time when our first daughter was born, who’s 34, and I’m now grandfather of two because of her. We were very friendly with Tom and Ann, and they were the first friends in the business who met [eldest daughter] Samantha. I think we actually went to Walt and Weezie’s house for dinner with Tom and Ann, and to introduce them all to Sam. And then it became a regular thing for Deb and I to have dinner with Tom and Ann, and then Tommy and Jean, at that point. They had an amazing dog, too, Maizie. A big yellow lab and our Samantha was a toddler, like a year-and-a-half old. So Maizie was the gentlest giant of a dog. And I remember, at one point, Sam was uneasy on her feet, Maizie kind of walked over and then was about to just plop down directly next to her. I’m thinking, this dog probably weighs 70–80 pounds. And it did it in such a way that she came within a hair’s breadth of my daughter and she didn’t knock her over or anything. And Sam just kind of sat down next to her and started petting her. So we spent some really fun times as friends after that.” “He always lived up to the hype,” Greg Wright said of his friend. “And the thing that was funny was, I really realized what a big deal he was, because every single time pages that he inked came into the office, every single other editor wanted to come see him, and every creator who was in the building, wanted to come see those pages. And, you know, that wasn’t the case for everybody’s pages. It was mostly Tom Palmer’s. So I became very aware that this was a master that I was working with. He didn’t actually have an ego or an attitude about him. He was just this really nice guy that happened to be a frickin’ genius. He was a genius as a painter, and he was a phenomenal penciler, because we would get him to pencil some stuff for Marvel universe figures and stuff for us every once in a while. I have a pencil drawing he did for me. I’d asked him to do a Quincy Harker. So, as a joke, it was for The Book of the Dead, he did this drawing of Quincy Harker dead after having fallen out of his wheelchair. It was just a joke, but I almost had it inked and used it. But he told me I could have it. So I have that little sketch.” Ron Garney was heartfelt in honoring Tom. “I’m fortunate to have had such a successful career. I’ve worked with movie stars and worked in movies, and I have to give some of that lineage back to Tom. I wouldn’t be here with such a successful career if I hadn’t learned so much from him. And, honestly, the impetus to get betCOMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

ter, that spark, is in all the talks we had, where we’d go through personal things with each other. He saw me through a lot of personal things. He’s one-of-a-kind as a human being. There’s just not anybody like him. “I will also say that they were giving him a special ‘Lifetime Achievement Award,’ for the Inkwell awards, and Tom asked me to give the acceptance speech for him and talk about him. I was very honored. It’s not about me, but it meant so much to me that he thought of me that way, and that he trusted me enough to do it. And I will say that that’s one of the biggest reasons we feel close to each other is there’s trust there. We always trusted each other. And that’s forever. I would just sign off by saying, ‘I love you, Tom.’” THE PASSING OF A LEGEND Tom Palmer passed on August 18th, 2022, from complications from cancer. This writer had the opportunity, over the last five years of Tom’s life, to be his friend. My mom was fighting her own cancer battle at the same time as Tom was struggling with his affliction. Details of Tom’s final days is an experience held close by his loving family. However, I will share that the friendship Tom and I initiated years earlier had certainly become something much more than just the off-and-on email conversation during his and my mom’s respective fights with the disease. Tom and I would talk on the phone regularly on Fridays. He expressed as much interest in my kids, my family history, and my thoughts about any topic he could think of, as he would talking about his career. Based on my conversations with many of the people involved in this celebration, Tom was like that with all his friends. Our last conversation was two weeks before his passing. It was not a sad talk. There was nothing somber in the tone even though we were finishing our interview for this issue. Tom was adamant that he and I would continue our Friday phone conversations. I was actually required by my friend to continue having them and to share my new experiences and the new things in my life with him in those chats. Words of wisdom from a friend. Neither of us were aware of the route life would take Tom in those next 14 days. No one knew, at least on that day, that a true prince and gentleman would be leaving the world in a much poorer place before he and I could ever talk again. Thank you, Tom. Your friends love and miss you.

Above: Ken Meyer, Jr..’s fine portrait of Tom Palmer. Opposite page: At top is rarely seen Avengers painting. At bottom is one of numerous “First Day of Issue” illos rendered by Tom in the ’80s

VERY SPECIAL THANKS:

Your humble editor wants to thank TOM PALMER, JR., for all of his help in this special tribute to his late father. Tom, as you may know, was a longtime columnist for Wizard Magazine, where his “Palmer’s Picks” feature included insightful interviews with an amazing roster of comics creators, including Chris Ware, Jeff Smith, Charles Burns, Harvey Pekar, and many more! Tom, who went above and beyond to help us, is deserving of a book collecting his best Wizard columns, am I right? 75

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IT ROSE FROM THE TOMB

WORKING WITH DITKO

JACK KIRBY’S DINGBAT LOVE

BEST OF SIMON & KIRBY’S

MAINLINE COMICS

CHRISTOPHER IRVING explores the superhero serials (1941-1952) of Superman, Captain America, Spy Smasher, Captain Marvel, and others, and the comic creators and film-makers who brought them to life! (160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-119-6

An all-new examination of the 20th Century’s best horror comics, from the 1940s to the ’70s, by PETER NORMANTON!

JACK C. HARRIS recalls collaborating with STEVE DITKO on The Creeper, Shade, Demon, Wonder Woman, The Fly, & more, plus Ditko’s unused Batman design!

The final complete, unpublished Jack Kirby stories in existence: Two unused 1970s DC DINGBATS OF DANGER STREET tales, plus TRUE-LIFE DIVORCE & SOUL LOVE mags!

Collects JOE SIMON & JACK KIRBY’s 1954-56 series BULLSEYE (the complete run), plus all the Kirby FOXHOLE, POLICE TRAP, and IN LOVE stories, fully restored!

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IT CREPT FROM THE TOMB

TEAM-UP COMPANION

KIRBY & LEE: STUF’ SAID

AMERICAN TV COMICS

Digs up the best of FROM THE TOMB (the UK’s preeminent horror comics history magazine), with early RICHARD CORBEN art, HP LOVECRAFT, and more!

MICHAEL EURY examines team-up comic books of the Silver and Bronze Ages of Comics in a lushly illustrated selection of informative essays, special features, and trivia-loaded issue-by-issue indexes!

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REED CRANDALL

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HERO-A-GO-GO!

Presents JACK KIRBY and STAN LEE’s own words to examine the complicated relationship of the creators of the Marvel Universe! (176-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $26.95 (Digital Edition) $12.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-094-6

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TWO-FISTED COMIC ARTIST

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CLIFFHANGER!

THE LIFE & ART OF

DAVE COCKRUM

History of over 300 TV shows and 2000+ comic book adaptations, from well-known series (STAR TREK, PARTRIDGE FAMILY, THE MUNSTERS) to lesser-known shows.

GLEN CADIGAN’s bio of the artist who redesigned the Legion of Super-Heroes and introduced X-Men characters Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Logan!

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ALTER EGO COLLECTORS' ITEM CLASSICS

Master of the Comics

MAC RABOY

History of Crandall’s life and career, from Golden Age Quality Comics, to Warren war and horror, Flash Gordon, and beyond!

Looks at comics' 1960s CAMP AGE, when spies liked their wars cold and their women warm, and TV's Batman shook a mean cape!

Biography of the EC, MARVEL and MAD mainstay, co-creator of American Eagle, and 40+ year CRACKED magazine contributor.

Compiles the sold-out DITKO, KIRBY, and LEE issues, plus new material on each!

Documents the life and career of the master Golden Age artist of Captain Marvel Jr. and other classic characters!

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ZOWIE!

THE TV SUPERHERO CRAZE IN ’60s POP CULTURE by MARK VOGER

HOLY PHENOMENON! In the way-out year of 1966, the action comedy “Batman” starring ADAM WEST premiered and triggered a tsunami of super swag, including toys, games, Halloween costumes, puppets, action figures, and lunch boxes. Meanwhile, still more costumed avengers sprang forth on TV (“The Green Hornet,” “Ultraman”), in MOVIES (“The Wild World of Batwoman,” “Rat Pfink and Boo Boo”), and in ANIMATION (“Space Ghost,” “The Marvel Super Heroes”). ZOWIE! traces the history of the superhero genre from early films, through the 1960s TV superhero craze, and its pop culture influence ever since. This 192-page hardcover, in pop art colors that conjure the period, spotlights the coolest collectibles and kookiest knockoffs every ’60s kid begged their parents for, and features interviews with the TV stars (WEST, BURT WARD, YVONNE CRAIG, FRANK GORSHIN, BURGESS MEREDITH, CESAR ROMERO, JULIE NEWMAR, VAN WILLIAMS), the artists behind the comics (JERRY ROBINSON, DICK SPRANG, CARMINE INFANTINO, JOE GIELLA), and others. Written and designed by MARK VOGER (MONSTER MASH, HOLLY JOLLY), ZOWIE! is one super read! (192-page FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER) $43.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-125-7 NOW SHIPPING!

MARVEL COMICS In The EARLY 1960s

AN ISSUE-BY-ISSUE FIELD GUIDE TO A POP CULTURE PHENOMENON by PIERRE COMTOIS

This new volume in the ongoing “MARVEL COMICS IN THE...” series takes you all the way back to that company’s legendary beginnings, when gunfighters traveled the West and monsters roamed the Earth! The company’s output in other genres influenced the development of their super-hero characters from Thor to Spider-Man, and featured here are the best of those stories not covered previously, completing issue-by-issue reviews of EVERY MARVEL COMIC OF NOTE FROM 1961-1965! Presented are scores of handy, easy to reference entries on AMAZING FANTASY, TALES OF SUSPENSE (and ASTONISH), STRANGE TALES, JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY, RAWHIDE KID, plus issues of FANTASTIC FOUR, AVENGERS, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, and others that weren’t in the previous 1960s edition. It’s author PIERRE COMTOIS’ last word on Marvel’s early years, when JACK KIRBY, STEVE DITKO, and DON HECK, together with writer/editor STAN LEE (and brother LARRY LIEBER), built an unprecedented new universe of excitement! (224-page TRADE PAPERBACK) $29.95 • (Digital Edition) $12.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-126-4 NOW SHIPPING!

COMIC BOOK IMPLOSION (EXPANDED EDITION) by KEITH DALLAS & JOHN WELLS

NOW IN FULL-COLOR WITH BONUS PAGES! In 1978, DC Comics launched a line-wide expansion known as “The DC Explosion,” but pulled the plug weeks later, cancelling titles and leaving dozens of completed comic book stories unpublished. Now, that notorious “DC Implosion” is examined with an exhaustive oral history from JENETTE KAHN, PAUL LEVITZ, LEN WEIN, MIKE GOLD, AL MILGROM, and other DC creators of the time, plus commentary by other top pros, examining how it changed the landscape of comics forever! This new EXPANDED EDITION of the Eisner Award-nominated book explodes in FULL-COLOR FOR THE FIRST TIME, with extra coverage of LOST 1970s DC PROJECTS like NINJA THE INVISIBLE and an adaptation of “THE WIZ,” JIM STARLIN’s unaltered cover art for BATMAN FAMILY #21, content meant for cancelled Marvel titles such as GODZILLA and MS. MARVEL, and more! NOW SHIPPING! (144-page FULL-COLOR SOFTCOVER) $26.95 • (Digital Edition) $10.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-124-0

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creators at the con

NYCC 2023: Marvel Fanfare At the Marvel Fanfare panel at New York Comic Con 2023, editor-in-chief C.B. Cebulski moderated a session featuring six artists from three generations of Marvel’s creative talent: two legends, Frank Miller and John Romita, Jr.; two former Marvel “Young Guns,” now major artists, Steve McNiven and Adi Granov; and two up-&coming “Stormbreakers” (Marvel’s Young Guns program successor), Elena Casagrande and Lucas Werneck. The Miller/Romita comedic banter was a panel highlight.

Photography by Kendall Whitehouse

C.B. Cebulski

Steve McNiven

John Romita, Jr.

Elena Casagrande

Frank Miller

Lucas Werneck

Back row: [l–r] B. Anderson, M. Zchut, R. Leigh, P. J. Tomasi, B. Hitch, G. Johns, and J. Fabok. Front row: B. Meltzer, F. Manapul, L. Magee, and G. Frank.

Legends, Young Guns, and Stormbreakers 78

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

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coming attractions: cbc #37 when comes winter

The Steve Englehart Enlightenment

The man who had Doctor Strange meet God, Captain America unmask Tricky Dick, and Batman encounter the Joker’s laughing fish, STEVE ENGLEHART is spotlighted in CBC #37 in a comprehensive, career-spanning interview, with emphasis on his glorious ’70s work as a top comics writer. Plus, with the help of former DC Comics’ romance editor BARBARA FRIEDLANDER, we reveal the disgraceful treatment of her mentor, the late, great DC writer/editor JACK MILLER, whose career was bought to an ignominious end by management while suffering a tragic malady. And DAN DiDIO shares about his years as DC exec and becoming the company’s co-publisher in the final portion of Greg Biga’s interview with the writer extraordinaire. We also conclude our 100th birthday celebration for ARNOLD DRAKE with the final portion of an amazing conversation with the brilliant late scribe, examining his originating the Doom Patrol and co-creating Deadman! We also present our look at the ’70s underground comix oddity, THE FUNNY PAGES, with help from the comic tabloid’s editor, Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs creator RON BARRETT! Also included, natch, are our regular features, such as good ol’ HEMBECK! Full-color, 84 pages, $10.95

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Fall 2024 • #36

a picture is worth a thousand words

from the archives of Tom Ziuko Here’s a rare one: handcolored by the comic book master colorist and industry pioneer — as the father of digital coloring — innovator Steve Oliff. This is an alternate version of Steve’s coloring for the cover of Cosmic Odyssey #1 [Dec. ’88], here without logo and text, and was used in slideshow presentations at comic book conventions during the pre-digital era. Art by a young Mike Mignola.

#36 • Fall 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

ALTER EGO #190

ALTER EGO #191

ALTER EGO #192

ALTER EGO #193

ALTER EGO #194

MITCH MAGLIO examines vintage jungle comics heroes (Kaänga, Ka-Zar, Sheena, Rulah, Jo-Jo/Congo King, Thun’da, Tarzan) with art by LOU FINE, WILL EISNER, FRANK FRAZETTA, MATT BAKER, BOB POWELL, ALEX SCHOMBURG, and others! Plus: the comicbook career of reallife jungle explorers MARTIN AND OSA JOHNSON, FCA, Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and more!

#191 is an FCA (FAWCETT COLLECTORS OF AMERICA) issue! Documenting the influence of MAC RABOY’s Captain Marvel Jr. on the life, career, and look of ELVIS PRESLEY during his stellar career, from the 1950s through the 1970s! Plus: Captain Marvel co-creator BILL PARKER’s complete testimony from the DC vs. Fawcett lawsuit, MICHAEL T. GILBERT in Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and other surprises!

MARK CARLSON-GHOST documents the mid-1950s super-hero revival featuring The Human Torch, Captain America, SubMariner, Fighting American, The Avenger, Phantom Lady, The Flame, Captain Flash, and others—with art by JOHN ROMITA, JOHN BUSCEMA, BILL EVERETT, SIMON & KIRBY, MIKE SEKOWSKY, MORT MESKIN, BOB POWELL, and other greats! Plus FCA, Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and more!

An abridgment of EDDY ZENO’s “Drawn to Greatness” book, showcasing Superman artists who followed JOE SHUSTER: WAYNE BORING, PAUL CASSIDY, FRED RAY, JACK BURNLEY, WIN MORTIMER, and others. With appreciations by ORDWAY, KUPPERBERG, ISABELLA, JURGENS, WAID, MACCHIO, NEARY, NOWLAN, EURY, THOMAS, and more! Plus FCA, Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and more!

ROY THOMAS celebrates 60 years in comics! Career-spanning interview by ALEX GRAND, e-mails to Roy from STAN LEE, the history of Wolverine’s creation, RT’s 1960s fan-letters to JULIUS SCHWARTZ, and his top dozen stories compiled by JOHN CIMINO! With art by BUSCEMA, KANE, ADAMS, WINDSOR-SMITH, COLAN, ORDWAY, BUCKLER, FCA, Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and cover by TONY GRAY!

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KIRBY COLLECTOR #91

KIRBY COLLECTOR #92

KIRBY COLLECTOR #93

KIRBY COLLECTOR #94

BRICKJOURNAL #87

30th Anniversary issue, with KIRBY’S GREATEST VICTORIES! Jack gets the girl (wife ROZ), early hits Captain America and Boy Commandos, surviving WWII, romance comics, Captain Victory and the direct market, his original art battle with Marvel, and finally winning credit! Plus MARK EVANIER, a colossal gallery of Kirby’s winningest pencil art, a never-reprinted SIMON & KIRBY story, and more!

IN THE NEWS! Rare newspaper interviews with Jack, 1973 San Diego panel with Jack and NEAL ADAMS discussing DC’s coloring, strips Kirby ghosted for others, unused strip concepts, collages, a never-reprinted Headline Comics tale, Jimmy Olsen pencil art gallery, 2024 WonderCon Kirby panel (featuring DAVID SCHWARTZ, GLEN GOLD, and RAY WYMAN), and more! Cover inked by DAVID REDDICK!

SUPPORTING PLAYERS! Almost-major villains like Kanto the Assassin and Diablo, Rodney Rumpkin, Mr. Little, the Falcon, Randu Singh, and others take center stage! Plus: 1970 interview with Jack by SHEL DORF, MARK EVANIER’s 2024 Kirby Tribute Panel from Comic-Con, neverreprinted Simon & Kirby story, pencil art gallery, and more! Unused Mister Miracle cover inked by MIKE ROYER!

SPACE RACES! Jack’s depictions of cosmic gods and life on other planets, including: how Ego, Tana Nile, and the Recorder took Thor to strange new worlds, OMAC’s space age future, time travelers in Kirby’s work, favorite Kirby sci-fi tropes in his stories, plus: a 1967 LEE/KIRBY interview, MARK EVANIER and other columnists, never-reprinted Simon & Kirby story, robotic pencil art gallery, cover inked by TERRY AUSTIN!

Take to the air with JESSE GROS and his wondrous airships! KEVIN COPA’s renditions of the ships from International Rescue, a.k.a. the Thunderbirds, are also featured, as well as JACK CARLESON and his airliners! Plus BRICKNERD, BANTHA BRICKS: Fans of LEGO Star Wars, step-by-step “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, and Minifigure Customization with JARED K. BURKS!

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RETROFAN #38

AMERICAN COMIC BOOK CHRONICLES: 1945-49

RETROFAN #35

RETROFAN #36

RETROFAN #37

Saturday morning super-hero Space Ghost, plus The Beatles, The Jackson 5ive, and other real rockers in animation! Also: The Addams Family’s JOHN ASTIN, Mighty Isis co-stars JOANNA PANG and BRIAN CUTLER, TV’s The Name of the Game, on the set of Evil Dead II, classic coffee ads, and more! With ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, MARK VOGER & MICHAEL EURY.

Feel the G-Force of Eighties sci-fi toon BATTLE OF THE PLANETS! Plus: The Girl from U.N.C.L.E.’s STEFANIE POWERS, CHUCK CONNORS, The Oddball World of SCTV, Rankin/Bass’ stop-motion Santa Claus Is Coming to Town, TV’s Greatest Catchphrases, one-season TV shows, and more! With ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, MARK VOGER & MICHAEL EURY.

The Jetsons, Freaky Frankensteins, Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling’s HOLLYWOOD, the Archies and other Saturday morning rockers, Star Wars copycats, Build Your Own Adventure books, crazy kitchen gadgets, toymaker MARVIN GLASS, and more! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER. Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Tune in to Saturday morning super-heroes Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends, The Mod Squad, Hanna-Barbera cartoonists, Jesus Christ Superstar, Mr. Potato Head, ‘Old Yeller” actress BEVERLY WASHBURN, Flying Nun collectibles, and more! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER. Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

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Covers the aftermath of WWII, when comics shifted from super-heroes to crime, romance, and western comics, BILL GAINES plotted a new course for EC Comics, and SIEGEL & SHUSTER sued for rights to Superman! By RICHARD ARNDT, KURT MITCHELL, and KEITH DALLAS.

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COMIC BOOK CREATOR #37 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #38 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #39

BACK ISSUE #155

BACK ISSUE #156

RICK VEITCH discusses his career from undergrounds and the Kubert School; the ’80s with 1941, Epic Illustrated and Heavy Metal; to Swamp Thing, The One, Brat Pack, and Maximortal! Plus TOM VEITCH’s history of ’70s underground horror comix, part one of a look at cartoonist ERROL McCARTHY, the story behind Studio Zero— the ’70s collective of artists STARLIN, BRUNNER, WEISS, and others, and more!

THOMAS YEATES career-spanning interview about the Kubert School, Swamp Thing, Eclipse Comics, and adventure strips Zorro, Tarzan, and Prince Valiant! GREG POTTER discusses his ’70s Warren horror comics and ’80s reboot of Wonder Woman with GEORGE PÉREZ, WARREN KREMER is celebrated by MARK ARNOLD, plus part one of a look at the work of STEVE WILLIS, part two of ERROL McCARTHY, and more!

THIS ISSUE IS HAUNTED! House of Mystery, House of Secrets, Unexpected, Marvel’s failed horror anthologies, Haunted Tank, Eerie Publications, House II adaptation, Elvira’s House of Mystery, and more wth NEAL ADAMS, MIKE W. BARR, DICK GIORDANO, SAM GLANZMAN, ROBERT KANIGHER, JOE ORLANDO, STERANKO, BERNIE WRIGHTSON, and others. Unused cover by GARCÍA-LÓPEZ & WRIGHTSON.

BRONZE AGE GRAPHIC NOVELS! 1980s GNs from Marvel, DC, and First Comics, Conan GNs, and DC’s Sci-Fi GN series! With BRENT ANDERSON, JOHN BYRNE, HOWARD CHAYKIN, CHRIS CLAREMONT, JOSÉ LUIS GARCÍA-LÓPEZ, JACK KIRBY, DON MCGREGOR, BOB McLEOD, BILL SIENKIEWICZ, JIM STARLIN, ROY THOMAS, BERNIE WRIGHTSON, and more. WRIGHTSON cover.

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STEVE ENGLEHART is spotlighted in a career-spanning interview, former DC Comics’ romance editor BARBARA FRIEDLANDER redeems the late DC editor JACK MILLER, DAN DIDIO discusses going from DC exec to co-publisher, we conclude our 100th birthday celebration for ARNOLD DRAKE, take a look at the 1970s underground comix oddity THE FUNNY PAGES, and more, including HEMBECK!

BACK ISSUE #158

BACK ISSUE #159

BACK ISSUE #160

BACK ISSUE #161

HEY, MISTER ISSUE! The FF’s Mr. Fantastic, STEVE DITKO’s Mr. A, the 40th anniversary of MICHAEL T. GILBERT’s Mr. Monster, Mr. X, the Teen Titans’ Mr. Jupiter, R. CRUMB’s Mr. Natural, Archie’s Mr. Weatherbee, and a Mr. Freeze villain history! Featuring BYRNE, CARDY, CONWAY, DeCARLO, DINI, ENGLEHART, the HERNANDEZ BROS., MIGNOLA, MOTTER, and more! Cover by ED McGUINNESS.

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS 40th ANNIVERSARY! Pre-Crisis tour of DC’s multiple Earths, analysis of Crisis and its crossovers, Crisis Death List, post-Crisis DC retro projects, guest editorial by MARV WOLFMAN, and more! Featuring BARR, ENGLEHART, GREENBERGER, LEVITZ, MAGGIN, MOENCH, ORDWAY, THOMAS, WAID, and more! With GEORGE PÉREZ’S Crisis on Infinite Earths Index #1 cover.

SUMMER FUN ISSUE! Marvel’s Superhero Swimsuit Editions, Betty and Veronica swimsuit gallery, DC’s Strange Sports Stories, the DC/Marvel softball rivalry, San Diego Comic-Con history, Impossible Man Summer Vacation Specials, DC Slurpee cups, DC/Whitman variants, and more! Featuring BATES, DeCARLO, HUGHES, JIM LEE, LOPRESTI, MAGGIN, ROZAKIS, STELFREEZE, and more! GUICE cover.

MUTANT MAYHEM ISSUE! BARRY WINDSOR-SMITH’s Weapon X Wolverine, the romance of Havok and Polaris, Rogue and Nightcrawler limited series, Brood and Arcade villain histories, “Mutant Massacre” crossover, and more! With JON BOGDANOVE, JOHN BYRNE, CHRIS CLAREMONT, DAVE COCKRUM, LOUISE SIMONSON, MIKE WIERINGO, and more! WINDSOR-SMITH cover.

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BACK ISSUE #157

KEITH GIFFEN TRIBUTE ISSUE! Starstudded celebration of the prolific writer/ artist of Legion of Super-Heroes, Rocket Raccoon, Guardians of the Galaxy, Justice League, Lobo, Blue Beetle, and others! With CARY BATES, TOM BIERBAUM, J.M. DeMATTEIS, DAN DIDIO, ROBERT LOREN FLEMING, CULLY HAMNER, SCOTT KOBLISH, PAUL LEVITZ, KEVIN MAGUIRE, BART SEARS, MARK WAID, and more!