Comic Book Creator #9 by TwoMorrows Publishing

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No. 9, Summer 2015

A Tw o M o r r o w s P u b l i c a t i o n

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also: LEILA LEIZ • STAN GOLDBERG • THE GODS OF MOUNT OLYMPUS • KATIE GREEN

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S u m m e r 2 0 1 5 • Vo i c e o f t h e C o m i c s M e d i u m • N u m b e r 9

About Our Cover

Art by JOE STATON Color by MATT WEBB

Comics Chatter Remembering Seth Kushner: The late photographer/writer’s good friend and collaborator Christopher Irving recalls the recently departed CBC contributor................. 3 Katie Green: An interview with the Lighter Than My Shadow graphic novelist............. 4 Aushenkerology: A personal ode to Cowboy Henk and the great European comics..... 6 Incoming: The Therapeutic Value of “It” and Roy Thomas on Kull the Conqueror........ 10 The Good Stuff: George Khoury talks with artist Leila Leiz about living the dream...... 14 Hembeck’s Dateline: Our Man Fred chats up longtime pal Joe Staton....................... 17 Stan Goldberg: Part one of Richard J. Arndt’s interview with the late cartoonist and Marvel colorist, a man remarkably appreciative for his long career in comics........ 18 GODS OF MOUNT OLYMPUS SPECIAL section Johnny Lee Achziger’s Olympian Achievement: CBC’s three-part examination of a little-known but breathtaking 1970s comics project starts with recollections of the guy who authored and helmed the tabloid-size (and ill-fated) series............ 26

Only two things were requested of cover artist Joe Staton: Please include Alec Tron, Nova Kane (a.k.a. Katrinka Colchnzski), and any other creator-owned character he’d like to add — plus caricatures of his kind self and lovely bride Hilarie… and, boy, does Our Man deliver! The bonus figure here is Femme Noir, the artist’s and writer Christopher Mills’ “Blond Justice of Nocturne City,” a tough-talking, gun-slinging, curly-haired vigilante. Check out www.femme-noir.com for her crime-fighting exploits. — Ye Ed. If you’re viewing a Digital Edition of this publication,

PLEASE READ THIS: This is copyrighted material, NOT intended for downloading anywhere except our website or Apps. If you downloaded it from another website or torrent, go ahead and read it, and if you decide to keep it, DO THE RIGHT THING and buy a legal download, or a printed copy. Otherwise, DELETE IT FROM YOUR DEVICE and DO NOT SHARE IT WITH FRIENDS OR POST IT ANYWHERE. If you enjoy our publications enough to download them, please pay for them so we can keep producing ones like this. Our digital editions should ONLY be downloaded within our Apps and at

Joe Staton, Myth-Maker: The issue’s featured subject shares the story behind his spectacular artistry on the Greek mythology comics series................................ 30 John Workman’s Mighty Aphrodite: The artist who followed up Joe on the shortlived series talks about the Gods’ brief revival in Mike Friedrich’s Star*Reach....... 32 The Comics Library: R.J. Arndt looks at Tintin and the Great Library Mystery............ 34 THE MAIN EVENT The Energizing Art of Joe Staton: CBC ’s exhaustive interview with the artist on his career, from Charlton to Dick Tracy, also featuring wife and collaborator, Hilarie.... 36 BACK MATTER Creator’s Creators: Steven Thompson........................................................................... 79 Coming Attractions: Peter Bagge & WARP! The Broadway Play................................... 79 A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words: X-Ray specs’ mystery artist revealed!......... 80 Right: Sporting the kinchy hues of CBC pal Mort Todd (himself profiled in #4), it’s E-Man and Nova Kane as drawn by the indomitable Joe Staton. The fave Charlton character will be appearing in Todd and Roger McKenzie’s Charlton Neo title Charlton Action soon. Find details at www.morttodd.com/charlton.

Comic Book Artist Vol. 1 & 2 are now available as digital downloads from twomorrows.com!

www.twomorrows.com

Comic Book Creator is a proud joint production of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows

Comic Book Creator ™ is published quarterly by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Dr., Raleigh, NC 27614 USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Jon B. Cooke, editor. John Morrow, publisher. Comic Book Creator editorial offices: P.O. Box 204, West Kingston, RI 02892 USA. E-mail: jonbcooke@aol.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Four-issue subscriptions: $40 US, $54 Canada, $60 elsewhere. All characters are © their respective copyright owners. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter ©2015 Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. Comic Book Creator is a TM of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. ISSN 2330-2437. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING.

This issue is dedicated to the memory of our friend and contributor SETH KUSHNER, forever a valued member of the CBC family ™

JON B. COOKE

Editor

John Morrow

Publisher & Consulting Editor

DAVID GREENAWALT

Design & Production Associate

MICHAEL AUSHENKER

Associate Editor

JOE STATON Cover Artist

MATT WEBB Cover Colorist

GEORGE KHOURY RICHARD J. ARNDT CHRISTOPHER IRVING TOM ZIUKO

Contributing Editors

Brian K. Morris Senior Transcriber

STEVEN THOMPSON

Transcriber

J.D. KING

CBC Cartoonist

TOM ZIUKO

CBC Colorist Supreme

RONN SUTTON

CBC Illustrator

ROB SMENTEK CBC Proofreader

SETH KUSHNER CBC Photographer in Memoriam

Greg PRESTON

CBC Contributing Photographer

KENDALL WHITEHOUSE

CBC Convention Photographer

MICHAEL AUSHENKER FRED HEMBECK GEORGE KHOURY TOM ZIUKO

CBC Columnists

To contact CBC, please email jonbcooke@aol.com or snail-mail CBC, P.O. Box 204, West Kingston, RI 02892 2

The Tyranny of Time Legends here and legends gone, the clock stops for no one

publisher, I recognize the creator In-between Comic Book Artist and Comwas working hard to improve ic Book Creator, I confess that beyond his storytelling and stylistic a life process this editor simply had to approach, but the verve and experience on a personal level, there enthusiasm is there, undeniable was an ongoing and growing fatigue from the start. Certainly I loved over the inevitability of human mortality. Joe’s cartoony work in the horror Simply put, my heroes, the creators of anthologies and love stories ages past, were dying at a rapid, dis— even his Wheelie and the tressing rate. The passing of Will Eisner, Chopper Bunch work showed his godfather of the American graphic novel versatility in adapting different and mentor of sorts to thousands of writgenres — but it was his whimsiers and artists, hit particularly hard and cal melding of Eisner’s Spirit and I was gratified to invest my energies into Cole’s Plastic Man that created that massive last issue of CBA [2005], this devoted fan for life. which honored Will, and to collaborate E-Man hit like a lightning bolt with my brother Andy to finish the film in 1973. Co-created by writer/ documentary Will Eisner: Portrait of a editor/cartoonist Nicola Cuti, the Sequential Artist [’07]. Thereafter I was character was a perfect antidote toast… and yet, like the changing of to the über-serious comics of the seasons, life and death would go on the day. And what made it work and on. best was the titular star was I’m grateful to be back, mature portrayed as an innocent, a babe enough to recognize my purpose is to in the woods, one partnered with help celebrate those living among us the smart, capable, and sexy and those passed. The death of folks woman we find in Nova Kane. I was friends with — including Herb From Day One, through the talTrimpe, whose sudden demise this past ents of Joe’s pencils-&-inks and spring was a shock — still hurts… Nick’s wordsmithing, the solid but rather than retreat in a sulk, the premise worked, and a classic calendar urges me to chronicle the Joe Staton comic book series was born. creators I admire with an ever more by Ronn Sutton I’d venture to say that Joe urgent tenacity. After all, these are lives that have mattered and, graced with a vehicle to express Staton is just about the best representation of a working cartoonist I’ve ever encountered. As you’ll see in his their importance to the world, I have a job to do. interview and in our in-depth examination of The Gods This issue of CBC is enormously satisfying… and of Mount Olympus herein, if one had a solid concept and quite the relief. At comic conventions over the years, I adequate capital to meet a page rate, Joe is the go-to had long discussed with always-agreeable artist Joe artist to get the job done with panache. (Much as the Staton (who, with charming wife Hilarie was been an artist deserves one, Yours Truly wouldn’t even attempt a omnipresent Artist Alley presence at cons) the desire to checklist, as Staton work can be found everywhere!) devote an issue to his career and astounding work, and Many thanks to Joe and Hilarie for their hospital— finally! — here it is. Though rarely at a loss for words, ity during Ye Ed’s visit to their Kingston abode and for I don’t know if I can adequately express the appeal to attending to CBC’s repeated requests for material! you, kind reader, of Staton’s artistic impact on my life. Maybe that difficulty is somehow tied to the place and As for CBC news: We’re discussing possibly making timing of his arrival in comics (at third-rate Charlton the long-awaited Heavy Metallurgy, a history of the Comics in the early ’70s) and my exposure to that under- American version of Métal Hurlant, into a CBC book next dog outfit (just when I was transitioning from reader to year. Plus please look for our in-depth remembrance fan) and, for that, I fear part of my devotion is sullied with of Herb Trimpe next issue. And we’ve been successful that most useless of emotions, nostalgia (a word I loathe since #6 at delivering the mag bi-monthly, so things are as it taints memory and blights critical thinking). looking very good for increased frequency in 2016! Yes, poring over his early work for that Derby, Conn.

cbc contributors Johnny Lee Achziger Michael Ambrose Richard Arndt Michael Aushenker Chris Bertram Athos Bousvaros

Jason Chatfield Shaun Clancy Nicola Cuti Stan Goldberg Katie Green Keith Hammond Dean Haspiel

Heritage Auctions Christopher Irving Kamagurka George Khoury James Kealy Seth Kushner Terra Kushner

Juan Lassalle Leila Leiz Ian Millsted Carlos Molina Luigi Novi Erica O’Toole Chris Ryall & IDW

—Y e Crusading Editor jonbcooke@aol.com Cory Sedlmeier Hilarie Staton Joe Staton Noelle Sturgeon Ronn Sutton Roy Thomas Steven Thompson

Mort Todd Alex Wald/First Matt Webb Kendall Whitehouse John Workman Rob Yeremian

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

passages

Kushner’s Kindness The enormously creative (and all-too-brief) life of photographer/writer Seth Kushner On May 17, 2015, pop culture/environmental photographer and comic book writer Seth Kushner died after a year-long battle with acute myeloid leukemia. Born on October 30, 1973, Seth graduated the School of Visual Arts in 1995. PDN, a photography magazine, cited him in 1999 as a “New and Emerging Photographer to Watch Under 30.” Seth co-authored two books that combined journalism with his photography: The Brooklynites [2007] with Anthony LaSala and, with this writer, Leaping Tall Buildings: The Origins of American Comics [2012]. Seth followed that with his series of photocomix (including Seth Kushner’s Force Field Fotocomix and CulturePOP Photocomix), writing his graphic novel, Schmuck, and comics Seth Kushner’s Secret Sauce and The Roman Nose (with co-creator and artist George Folz). He leaves behind a wife, Terra, and son, Jackson. Those are the dry facts. I had the honor of working with Seth for a few years on Graphic NYC, the website that was the basis for Leaping, and then the greater honor of being able to call him friend. But this is it: I wasn’t the only person who had that esteemed privilege. He left behind a good amount of dear, dear friends going back to high school; Seth immersed himself in the Brooklyn comics community through having so much to offer and being an easy guy to get along with. I’ve seen him work; I’ve created crazy comics with him (his first photocomic was when he experimented with the Harvey Pekar interview I did, meshing it with his photos of Pekar; he would ironically become Harvey’s successor in more ways than one); I’ve had disagreements and experiences of fanboy proportions; I’ve called him in tears when things weren’t going right in my life; and, even when things were worse in his, he was there. Seth also had a way of calling you out in a matter-of-fact and non-jerkish way; he was just as stubborn on some things in relation to how easy-going he was on others. He was scared of heights, but he’d still climb onto a high roof to get the right photo. Through being such an unassuming guy, he managed to put his subjects at ease (I saw him work that way on most of the Graphic NYC portraits, and I learned how that is the sign of a true photographer). He considered himself an “environmental portrait photographer,” but I

think that’s a fancy way of saying he could photograph people anywhere and catch their personality on film. To me, Seth Kushner was Woody Allen, Harvey Pekar, Jimmy Olsen, and a big brother all rolled into one. He’s a creator who successfully managed to reinvent himself through his work when no one was looking. To read The Roman Nose is to read a fun, rip-roaring sci-fi adventure story on par with Jaime Hernandez’s early Love and Rockets, but it’s also seeing the further potential waiting to come out of Seth. His best friend and collaborator, Dean Haspiel, said he “cried the roar of a thousand lions” when Seth died; going off that, all of us created a chorus of cacophonic proportions of lions’ roars when we learned. It isn’t too late if you haven’t read Seth’s work: check out Hang Dai Editions, the publishing company he started with Dean Haspiel, Josh Neufeld, and Gregory Benton (www.hangdaieditions. com); read Schmuck when it finally comes out; or look at his portraits at www.nycgraphicnovelists.com; or pick up The Roman Nose on Comixology. He shone through his work so, if you missed out on meeting him, that’s a step in the right direction. And pitch in to the GoFundMe (www.gofundme.com/d8gc2o) set up in his name: the money will benefit Terra and Jackson — the two best friends Seth ever has had or ever will.

The word “hero” is tossed about with such ease in this day and age, perhaps, like so much of current language, its essence is fraying at the edge and becoming more diluted by the minute. And we in comics, cognizant that the depiction of champions (super and otherwise) is an engine driving our form, need to care, particularly when one has stood among us. Seth Kushner, my friend and contributor to Comic Book Creator since issue one, fought his malady with a fervent tenacity and never-say-die spirit that can be defined by no other word than hero. Yes, disease won the battle for Seth’s all-too-brief life, and we are never to again enjoy new work

or revel in his company one more time. But Seth’s weapon was more than anger; it was a prolific and persistent creativity that propelled him once more into the breach as the struggle against cancer would alternately surge and wain. In a way, in a cosmic sense maybe, Seth has won the war. He has bequeathed to us all his astonishing power of example, shared to all the adversity he faced (his fight was waged very publicly on Facebook, allowing us to bear witness), and — to the tragic end — he fought using his rich, artistic imagination. Seth’s legacy is in teaching us how to live. — Jon B. Cooke, CBC editor

by CHRISTOPHER IRVING CBC Contributing Editor

Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

Above: Portrait of the late Seth Kushner by his friend and fellow photographer Carlos Molina. Inset left: The Kushner family in a photo from last year. From left, Seth’s wife Terra, son Jackson, and the man himself. Below: Joseph Remnant’s cover art graces the cover of Seth’s graphic novel, Schmuck, to be published posthumously this fall by Hang Dai Editions and Alternative Comics.

comic book zeitgeist

A Process of Healing Katie Green learns about recovery through creating Lighter Than My Shadow Interview conducted by Ian Millsted

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

man’s Maus, after which I picked up Blankets by Craig Thompson — two books that shattered all my misconcep[Katie Green is an artist, illustrator, and writer based in the tions about comics in one fell swoop! southwest of England. Her powerful and moving autobiIan: Can you say a little about your route into professional ographical graphic memoir Lighter Than My Shadow was illustration and graphic novels? released in 2014. The title may tip you off that Katie is docuKatie: It was certainly unconventional! As I mentioned, menting her experiences of living with an eating disorder, but I didn’t really discover this was something I wanted to do there is even more here, and the best person to elaborate is until my 20s. Though I’d always been creative I’d never Katie herself. — Ian Millsted.] considered it a career option and I didn’t do art at school. I did a degree in biology before going to art college. I was very Ian Millsted: Lighter Than My Shadow is a big book focused on the goal of creating Lighter Than My Shadow, published by a big, mainstream publisher, Random House. but other ideas began to spring up along the way and I found Did you approach them with the idea? myself producing books and zines which I began selling Katie Green: I did indeed. I’d recently graduated, and online while I was still a student. Illustration is great in that had produced a few extracts of the story for my final degree sense: all you need is a website and you’re off. It’s hard project. I was attending a launch of one of Bryan Talbot’s work, but that’s about the only resource you really need to books (he’d been a tutor on an Arvon Foundation course I’d get started. attended a few years previously — which I can’t recommend Ian: Lighter Than My Shadow starts with, and makes recurAbove: Cover for Katie Green’s highly enough). He introduced me to an editor and somehow ring use of, dreamlike memories linking the main narrative. remarkable 516-page graphic I found the courage to talk about what I was working on, To what extent was creating this work living through events memoir about abuse and re- asked if he’d like to see samples. I only had very few at that again? covery from an eating disorder, stage but he liked them, and that was that really. Katie: It was almost exactly like living through events Lighter Than My Shadow, Ian: Doing the book as a graphic novel adds an important again, especially in the passages about the abuse, which published by Random House. dimension as we can see, painfully at times, what you were were very painful to put down on paper. I knew this would be Below: Portrait of the author by experiencing. Did you always plan this as a graphic novel? the case to some extent, but actually underestimated how photographer Chris Bertram. Katie: Actually, I had the idea to write a book long before I affecting the process would be. Creating the book changed knew graphic novels even existed. I intended it to be prose my whole understanding of recovery. I went into the book thinking that recovery was a finite process, and that I was Next page: At top, in her fanzine initially, but it never seemed to come out right. When I The Green Bean, writer/artist discovered comics and graphic novels in my early 20s it was mostly done with it. I think unconsciously I was expecting the book to be the ending, but it was kind of the opposite. Katie Green shows the devel- like finding I could read and speak a whole new language: opment of her ground-breaking one that flowed much more naturally and was far more fitting Obviously, to create the book, I had to spend a lot of time delving into the past and making it present again. Things book. At bottom inset is a panel for the story I wanted to tell. became very real, and I was made aware of some thought from Lighter Than My Shadow. Ian: So, which comics or graphic novels did you discover? patterns and behaviors — particularly related to my working All material courtesy of K.G. Katie: The first graphic novel I ever read was Art Spiegelhabits — that closely resembled an eating disorder. As the book unfolded, the narrative I was telling changed as I discovered recovery wasn’t a process I had finished with, but still very much a part of my everyday life. Ian: Who do you see as the main audience for the book? I have to confess, as a male reader, I feel a little like I’m intruding when I read the story but, as the father of a daughter, wiser for the experience. Katie: If I’m honest, it’s not something I gave much thought to. The idea sprung from wanting to create a book that I wish had been there for me: one that was both unflinchingly honest about what recovery is really like, but showed there is hope and light at the end of the tunnel. So, in one sense, the intended audience would be people struggling with similar issues, but truthfully I was not really thinking of an audience at all. I just had a need to tell an honest story. I believe part of the reason both eating disorders and abuse are so misunderstood is that we, as a society, are afraid to talk about them. I can show people what those experiences feel like from the inside out, and so I hoped it might help anyone who read it to better understand their own or someone else’s struggles. I’ve heard from so many people who’ve connected with the book for a wealth of different reasons. It’s amazing and humbling to hear their stories in return for sharing my own. Ian: Would you recommend setting a story down, in prose or graphics, as a valuable thing for someone in recovery?

Katie: Not necessarily. I’d be very wary of suggesting that creating a piece of work like this has any therapeutic value for the creator, because it’s actually been a huge challenge for my mental health. That said, there are many ways in which setting things down on paper can be and are helpful. Eating disorders and abuse are extremely difficult things to talk about, and if it helps to explain something that happened or feelings you’re struggling to articulate, then I’d recommend it, for sure. Ian: How did you decide to frame or portray the more difficult scenes? Katie: I used my own discomfort as a measure of how much of the abuse was acceptable to show. I tried to make the delivery in the book echo my own experience, which was extremely muddled and confusing, not truly realizing what had been happening to me until years after, hoping to give the reader only just enough to understand. Drawing those scenes was very painful and often I couldn’t bear to look at what I’d drawn, so I would mask off parts of the page with Post-It notes or scraps of paper so I didn’t have to keep seeing it. Ian: You’ve clearly had a positive reaction from readers. How has it been received within the publishing world? Katie: I’m not sure how to answer that question. I certainly received many positive reviews and have been invited to speak about the book at a huge range of arts and literature festivals around the country. It’s a huge privilege. However, I’d really love to see the book translated into other languages, which as yet hasn’t happened. I think the size of the book can be somewhat off-putting, but in truth it contains very few words. Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

Ian: It is very accessible. Will you do anything as personal as Lighter Than My Shadow again? Katie: It probably isn’t seen that way by most people, but all the work I create is personal and Lighter Than My Shadow, because all my creativity stems from that dark place, creativity and recovery are synonymous for me. Though it might not seem quite as revealing on the surface, projects like The Green Bean are extremely intimate and personal, and it feels impossible for me to create anything without being that honest. Ian: Can you describe the other projects you have worked on or are working on? Katie: The Green Bean is my ongoing labor of love, a handmade zine/mini comic that I’ve been publishing regularly since 2010. Every issue is different. Sometimes they’re themed around certain travels I’ve made or subjects that are relevant (there’s one about the process of creating Lighter Than My Shadow, for example). Others are more like a collage of thoughts and sketches. I include book reviews, recipes, craft projects — anything that interests me really. Readers say it’s like sitting down for a cup of tea with a good friend. Other than that, I’ve been taking things slowly since finishing Lighter Than My Shadow. I illustrated a collection of children’s stories written by Tim Malnick called The Crystal Mirror. I’ve been taking on some small commissions, posters, logos, that kind of thing, and I did a couple of short comics for a lovely knitting magazine called Pom Pom Quarterly. I’m starting to see that perhaps there may be another larger project in the pipeline, but it would be far too premature to try and talk about it yet. Ian: Many, many thanks and I hope the translated editions start to happen. 5

aushenkerology

The Cowboy Henk Way A cartoonist’s personal appreciation of the great European humor tradition by Michael Aushenker CBC Associate Editor Growing up in Brooklyn in the 1970s, I was exposed to a plethora of American-made treasure that ultimately shaped and influenced my professional life: Bronze Age Marvel and DC, syndicated strips such as Peanuts and B.C., and animated cartoons… lots of ’em. There was the Fleischer Popeye, Betty Boop, and Superman cartoons; Tex Avery’s shorts for Warner Bros., MGM and Walter Lantz, and the usual madefor-TV suspects: Jay Ward, Hanna-Barbera, etc. But, as a youth, thanks to my French mom, I got a jump start on an entire universe of imagination that most American readers would not have been exposed to until relatively recently. That would be European comics.

Viva la France!

Above: Caption

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All material TM & © the respective copyright holders.

When I was still a kid in our cramped, one-bedroom Canarsie apartment (before our big move to California), my mom would return from visiting relatives in France with a new Tintin or Asterix bande dessinée for me (along with a jar of chocolate magic something called Nutella, back when it wasn’t available at your neighborhood U.S. supermarket). The Tintin and Asterix books were in French and, over the years, I continued to pick up more of the Casterman editions whenever I visited Paris. It didn’t matter that my French was rough. The visual power of The Adventures of Tintin (all 24 albums of them) captured my imagination, vicarious transporting me to different lands and cultures all over the world. This was total eye-candy (or eye-Nutella, to be more precise). Tintin’s sublime mix of high-adventure and situation comedy with its extensive supporting cast, including the titular boy reporter’s loyal white terrier Milou (Snowy in English), Capt. Haddock, and Professor Tournisel (Sunflower), beautifully packaged in that signature ligne claire style, instantly captured my imagination. Created by Georges Remy (whose pen name was Hergé, a play on his initials “R.G.”), the French-language Tintin first appeared in Le Petit Vingtième (a youth supplement inside the Belgian newspaper Le Vingtième Siècle) as a serialized comic strip on January 10, 1929 (exactly one week before Popeye the Sailor’s first appearance in Segar’s Thimble Theater… wow, what a month in comics history that was!) The success of Hergé’s series propelled it into Le Soir, Belgium’s biggest newspaper, and then to Tintin magazine. To be honest, Asterix, about the short Gaulish hero who derives great strength by drinking a magic elixir and

drawn in a big foot style, did not contain as much magic for me as Hergé’s work. Much of the political connotations informing such titles as Asterix and Cleopatra and Asterix and the Olympic Games were lost on me. Nevertheless, I collected and absorbed them as well, as there is no dispute how iconic and beautifully drawn was this French twist on Popeye. Meanwhile, the Paris newspaper Le Monde ran a very entertaining syndicated strip from Belgium by Morris (a.k.a. Maurice De Bevere) called Lucky Luke that visually resembled an imagining of Asterix team writer René Goscinny and artist Albert Uderzo lampooning the American Old West. (In fact, Lucky Luke, launched in 1946, was briefly written by Goscinny.) Beyond these strips, there was also stuff like the Tintin-inspired Belgian comic Spirou. (Confusing matters, there was a comics anthology magazine called Spirou in which Tintin appeared.) Created in 1938 by Rob-Vel (Robert Velter), the red-uniformed Spirou started out as an elevator operator and bellboy at the Moustique Hotel. He soon evolved into a boy reporter a la Hergé’s creation. Another Belgian comic, Les Schtroupfs, by the 1980s became popularized in the States as The Smurfs, thanks largely to the Hanna-Barbera Saturday morning cartoon series. Freshly arrived in Los Angeles at age nine, I befriended a kid in the fifth grade who had originated from Vancouver. As a result, he had English-language editions of Tintin published by Atlantic Little & Brown (still not commonly available in the U.S. in the late 1970s). Tintin in English? This was a first. I borrowed as many of his well-worn soft-cover editions as I could, Cigars of the Pharaoh, The Broken Ear, and King Ottokar’s Scepter ranking among my favorites. Within a few years, my local B. Dalton (a long-defunct California chain of book stores) carried those Atlantic Little & Brown softcover Tintin and Asterix editions and I completed my collection anew in English. Maus was no doubt Art Spiegelman’s greatest achievement creatively, but more importantly to my comics universe as a teen was the1970–80s publication Spiegelman and wife Françoise Mouly published called RAW. Curating a quality anthology of comics by cartoonists from all over the world, RAW was where I was first introduced to a comic strip that would later prove to be hugely instrumental on my own humor comics work: Cowboy Henk, by a pair of Belgian cartoonists from Flanders named Kamagurka and Peter van Hersielle (nom de plume: Herr Seele). “I don’t remember well how we got into RAW magazine, but I think it was [cartoonists] Joost Swarte and Ever who introduced Henk to Art and Francoise,” recalls Kamagurka today. Actually, the irreverent, ligne claire-aping Cowboy Henk initially did not have much impact on me, but it was in RAW where I first remember these strange non-sequitur strips featuring the blond-bobbed Henk, a clear corruption of Herge’s landmark Tintin. “Cowboy Henk is one of the most im-

All material TM & © the respective copyright holders.

portant characters in European alternative comics,” says Autsaider Comics publisher Juan Lassalle, “and [he is] surprisingly nearly unknown in Spain.” That prompted Lassalle to last year publish a big hulking hardcover collection of Cowboy Henk strips translated in Spanish. By the time I graduated college, absurdism had already infiltrated my cartooning thanks to Tex Avery and Walter Lantz cartoons such as “Crazy Mixed-Up Pup,” the “Maw and Paw” series and Sugarfoot. But, in the second half of 1991, following graduation, I was able to spend a half-year living in Paris at my uncle’s old bachelor pad. It was there that I began building up a professional portfolio, including material that would find its way into my first published comic book, the one-man humor comics anthology Bound & Gag, as well as humor comics for Strip Tease!, an oasis of humor comics edited by Mark Martin amid the airbrushed vixens from Venus in the pages of Heavy Metal magazine (famously the American version of the French Metal Hurlant sci-fi anthology, which showcased the late, great Moebius). The French were big on comics anthologies, which were sold right at the newspaper kiosks all over Paris. The Franco-Belgian Fluide Glacial was the leading anthology, but it was a newer one, Psikopat, a mish-mash of sexual and scatological humor lead by the cartoonist Carali (Paul Karali) that featured a strip called Cowboy Jean, which was actually Cowboy Henk. Adding to some confusion, there’s a booklength Henk story called “Maurice le Cowboy” published by French publisher Albin Michel in 1986. And Kamagurka notes that in Sweden, Henk was named Cowboyen Sven Bertil. This time, those Cowboy Henk strips and I connected. They were hilarious. There was one Henk strip in Psikopat that I have never seen since that basically amounted to Henk making sexual advances at a married woman. When the husband comes home and finds them together, he beats the tar out of Henk. Cut to Henk in a full-body cast from cowlick to toe except for a slit for his mouth. The last panel is a close-up of the aperture with Henk’s persistent tongue sticking out as Henk asks the woman, “Sixty-nine?” I loved the sheer madness of these strips, the loopy quasi-surrealness, the mix of sex, violence, and horror that was not pornographic in intent. How Henk swung wildly from G-rated to X-rated humor that was dictated by the gag, not by censors or a moral code. It was as genial or as outlandish as it needed to be depending on the situation. Pure artistic expression. Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

Lassalle, the Spanish publisher, calls Kamagurka and Seele “the kings of the absurd, a mix of dadaism, surrealism and [scatological humor] very well-balanced.” What the reader discovers in Cowboy Henk strips, says Lassalle is that in life, “You don’t have to obey any rules at all. Everything is sharp and smart, nothing is subjected to the standards. Cowboy Henk is gay, hetero, good, bad, artist, hairdresser, single, married, [something different] in every strip.” Cowboy Henk/Jean directly inspired me to come up with a series of my own one-pagers, Greenblatt the Great, about a daffy bellhop with a supporting cast who resembled rejects from Tintin’s supporting line-up. I dotted the panels with European in-jokes: “Tabac” on the awnings, specific road signs, a spoof of a character off a dumb French sitcom (Maurice) and other quirky things I had noticed while living in Europe. In no way were my Greenie strips a rip-off of Cowboy Henk. His personality was different, the gags were more layered and I set him in this sitcom-ish environment of a hotel. But I was 100 percent moved to create a Cowboy Henk-type absurdist strip of my own, if you will, after reading these great strips. In an interview, Jack Kirby once pleaded the next generation of cartoonists not to become the next Jack Kirby but to divine inspiration from him by creating their own style, cartoon universe, and visual vocabulary (a lesson too many cartoonists still fail to understand). Likewise, I wasn’t going to copy “Kirby Krackle” or even come up with my own “Krackle,” but to invent my own signatures, driven by the energy I felt reading those Cowboy Henks.

This page: The absurdist comics masterpiece Cowboy Henk is the product of the fertile imaginations of writer Kamagurka (above right) and artist Herr Selle (left), both of Belgium. Previous page: Top left is the kids magazine where Tintin debuted. Spiegelman & Mouly’s RAW boasted the U.S. appearance of many of the best European comics. Lucky Luke and Gaul warrior Asterix are but two acclaimed Euro comics characters.

Not surprisingly, Fantagraphics has been at the forefront of introducing North American audiences to some of Europe’s master humor cartoonists. In 1994, Fantagraphics published the first English-language book of Cowboy Henk (while not the absolute best selection of these strips, it’s full color and a nice primer on Henk). Fantagraphics did it again in 2011, publishing The Cabbie by Marti of Spain, another great creation, a syndicated strip something like the bastard son of Chester Gould and the guy — Roy Tompkins — who did those indy Trailer Trash comics back in the 1990s.

Spain: Inside the Autsaider

Belgium: Behind the Henk

For my money (dollars, francs, euros — you name it!), the AWOL, subversive absurdity of Cowboy Henk is nearly unparalleled; a print throwback to Avery cartoons, only much more graphic, often refreshingly crude, casually sexual and scatological. While Kamagurka only writes the Cowboy Henk strips, he is also active as a gag cartoonist, and both he and Herr Seele have performed as comedians on Dutch-language TV. Very influential on a young Kamagurka was TV’s first-ever prime-time animated cartoon sitcom, Hanna-Barbera’s The Flintstones. After that show sparked his imagination, he knew the path he would take. “When I was nine years old,” he remembers, “I saw The Flintstones on TV. I was so impressed that I wanted to become a Flintstonemaker.” Cut to a couple decades later and Kamagurka and Seele hatched what would become their most enduring creation. “Henk was born in 1981, I think,” Kamagurka says. “We wanted to make a character with the looks of a super-hero in combination with the innocence of Tintin. That way we could tell strange, black, crazy stories.” At his core, Cowboy Henk is a mad subversion of Herge’s iconic creation. “Henk can do anything he wants,” says his co-creator. “He is always kind of innocent — the Tintin look, you know.” Hearkening back to the inspiration, Kamagurka

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This page: From top is Martí’s excellent The Cabbie; Spanish publisher Ata Lassalle poses with his Autsaider Comics; Tomás cover of CHOF Comics #2; the Cowboy Henk collection. Inset: Franco is the target of cartoonist Furillo’s SF farce Nosotros Llegamos Primero. Next page: Covers of Autsaider’s Rojo mini-comics collection.

Last year, there was a huge spike in Cowboy Henk activity thanks to Spain’s Autsaider Comics. Lassalle, 42, who published his first fanzine at 14, began appearing in magazines as a cartoonist by 17. In the early ’90s, on the strength of his published work, he landed at an advertising agency as an art director, where he storyboarded commercials and laid-out print advertising. “Most of my comics [including En La Cocina (‘a compendium of well-meant scribbles’), Una Historietas, Mucha Risa, Pesimo Gusto, and Une Tebeo] recreate real or almost real situations,” he shares, “from a critical perspective, touching thorny issues, putting on the table extreme and crazy ideas, which can cause humor, reflection, and rejection at the same time.” Lassalle continues, “I continued publishing cartoons during the crazy years I worked as art and creative director in several agencies. In 2007, while I was running my own advertising agency, I decided to leave all those commercials, print ads, hurry, clients, etc., to focus on my true vocation: cartooning.” In 2011, Lassalle’s Autsaider Comics began as “a tiny project” focused on publishing the “inexplicably unpublished” works of talented foreign cartoonists, work that had bypassed Spain, such comics by Benjamin Marra and Kaz’s Underworld (Submundo in Spanish). Autsaider published the first three volumes as hardcover editions and followed up with three more. Lassalle offers a rundown of his country’s offerings. “Among the popular and cutting-edge Spanish cartoonists of the moment,” he says, “include Manel Fontdevila, Monteys and Mauro Entrialgo (recently published Tyrex in the States), arguably the leaders of the pack. Javi Godoy does great pulp parody. José Domingo, a Harvey Award nominee last year, is doing notable material feature impressive aesthetics and narrative approaches. Nacho García is at the forefront of the post-humor line, some kind of absurd-arty-ugly comics. Joan Cornellá could be our absurd comic star; Furillo and Piñata, the kings of the disgusting and bad taste comics. And a medium point between the dirties and the absurdists is where José Tomás makes his cartoons.” Another Autsaider book is Tomás’ CHOF. According to Lassalle, Tomas once had the biggest Spanish humor magazine. “In his comics, he breaks all the moral taboos you can imagine,” Lassalle says. “He is not trying to annoy anyone, but for sure someone will feel injured after reading his work… [it’s] not politically correct at all.” Lassalle continues, “Nowadays Jose works in a meat processing factory and publishes his own fanzines. He hates the commercial relationships with agents, distributors, and publishing companies.” Autsaider also publishes a line of local cartoonists, including several compilations of limited edition of mini-comics. They include the great Martí, who is something of a mystery in the U.S., outside of Fantagraphics’ editions of The Cabbie. “Martí was similar [to Tomás], but [also] a bit different,” says Lassalle. “He is not a high-productivity cartoonist, but as we got him to draw a 20-page mini-comic last year for one of those underground compilations we publish, [and] we encouraged him to transform that story in a bigger book. So, in a few months, we will have a 64-page Martí comic book, which is a jewel nobody expected was possible.”

Then came Kamagurka and Seele with Cowboy Henk, which Autsaider collected in a definitive collection that includes the entire Cowboy Maurice-titled Henk graphic novel lampooning Herge’s Tintin in America. Today’s European alternative humor comics scene is still thriving. And, as evinced by the tragic events of January with France’s Charlie Hebdo, cartoons are more powerful and provocative than ever. “In Spain, humor comics are in really good shape,” Lassalle says. “Maybe the industry is not at his best, but the contents… for sure they are. In Spain, you can find a weekly magazine El Jueves, whose content is half-conventional, half-alternative, with nearly 120,000 readers.” There’s also TMEO, a most combative and radical humor publication, and recently Orgullo y Satisfacción, a brandnew digital humor magazine, which is very successful. Plus, there are the Spanish fanzines, including Zangazo Comix and Thermozero. “Every town has its annual DIY alternative publishing convention,” Lassalle says.

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All material TM & © the respective copyright holders.

explains, “Hergé was interesting for me because he could make me read a whole book at one time. His storytelling was crazy in the sense that it was clear and surreal at the same time.” Kamagurka was also inspired by a more recent strip. “Bill Griffith’s Zippy [the Pinhead] came much later,” he says, but it influenced my work, also a lot!” The difference between Zippy and Henk though is many-fold. Zippy tends to be verbose and topical while Henk remains more visual and timeless. There is also a difference in degrees as to how far the surrealism is pushed. Even by European standards, “some Cowboy Henk stories are a bit extreme,” Kamagurka says, “but that is what we like…” These days, Kamagurka gets his kicks from a prime-time familycentric animated series that has proven more popular than beloved childhood show. “I like The Simpsons,” he says. “They are the new Flintstones.” Kamagurka and Seele have even attempted to translate Henk” into the same medium as his television influences. “We made some animated quickies with Cowboy Henk in Lava, a Kamagurka and Seele TV program for Dutch and Belgian television,” Kamagurka says. “Now we are making paintings with C.B. Henk as an icon.” Surprisingly, despite the nearly 35 years of longevity and ubiquity of Kamagurka and Seele’s crackpot Cowboy, the writer explains that the pair rarely receives a response from their audience: “Not very much feedback, I must say… But I know that there are a lot of people in the States who know and like Cowboy Henk.” And yet, as the rousing celebration of Kamagurka and Seele’s AWOL at the prestigious Angoulême International Comics Festival in 2015 attests, the tributes, collections and accolades multiply internationally as Cowboy Henk continues to ride into a Dali-esque sunset while his creators, in a romance with their cowboy more knotty than the one seen in Brokeback Mountain, have no immediate plans on the horizon to quit Henk. As Kamagurka puts it, “The best part for me is writing Henk strips. It’s so much fun to do that.”

The Storyteller’s Story Official Selection in over 25 film festivals worldwide “The best comics bio I’ve ever seen… It’s wonderful, well done.” Brian Michael Bendis “An essential doc for comics fans, ‘Portrait’ will also enlighten the curious.” John DeFore, Austin American-Statesman “Entertaining and insightful. A great film about a visionary artist!” Jeffrey Katzenberg Arguably the most influential person in American comics, Will Eisner, as artist, entrepreneur, innovator, and visual storyteller, enjoyed a career that encompassed comic books from their early beginnings in the 1930s to their development as graphic novels in the 1990s. During his sixty-year-plus career, Eisner introduced the now-traditional mode of comic book production; championed mature, sophisticated storytelling; was an early advocate for using the medium as a tool for education; pioneered the now-popular graphic novel, and served as inspiration for generations of artists. Without a doubt, Will Eisner was the godfather of the American comic book. The award-winning full-length feature film documentary includes interviews with Eisner and many of the foremost creative talents in the U.S., including Kurt Vonnegut, Michael Chabon, Jules Feiffer, Jack Kirby, Art Spiegelman, Frank Miller, Stan Lee, Gil Kane, and others.

Available Now on DVD & Blu-ray • www.twomorrows.com

incoming

The Therapeutic Value Within ‘It’! Plus Roy Thomas speaks discusses the Wrightson interview and “Skull of Silence” Keith Hammond

Write to CBC: jonbcooke@ aol.com or P. O. Box 204, West Kingston, RI 02892

[Gee, Keith, thanks so much for sharing that lovely anecdote. We were so moved, we just had to pass it on to Ted Sturgeon’s daughter Noelle, who shares the following. — Ye Ed.]

Noelle Sturgeon This was a very sweet thing to hear about. I know my father would have been delighted. All his life, he championed

[Next up, my pal and TwoMorrows’ brother editor Roy Thomas has a few words about the Bernie Wrightson interview last ish and a certain King of Atlantis….]

Roy Thomas Been enjoying CBC #7, as usual, in particular the Bernie Wrightson interview. But I’m a bit puzzled by your leading question about Bernie’s “unhappy experience with [the] Creatures on the Loose ‘King Kull’ story.” Now, that was more than 40 years ago, and I can’t claim total recall, so I can’t swear that Bernie didn’t try to make some suggestions about the story “Skull of Silence” that we were adapting, or that, at least by his lights, I “didn’t acknowledge” his “very specific ideas” about it, or that I “wouldn’t entertain the possibility of listening to the ideas.” He says he got “a very arrogant vibe from them” — and by “them” he would have to mean me, because neither Stan as editor nor anyone else at Marvel had anything to do with that story, only with the cover. Your leading question and then the back-and-forth with Bernie surprised me, because, after I hadn’t pushed Stan to accept Bernie as the initial artist on Conan the Barbarian despite liking the two sample drawings he gave me, I had been very eager to give him a chance to draw a Robert E. Howard story to show my admiration of his artwork… and so I approached him to do the very first “King Kull” story that was done, with an eye toward Kull becoming a second Marvel sword-&-sorcery title, hopefully with Bernie as artist. (If I hadn’t had that in mind, I wouldn’t have given him the assignment.) Quite contrary to his statement about Marvel just being a “factory” where we “Never let the penciler ink his own work,” etc., as per the CBC interview, there was never any attempt by me or by anyone else at Marvel to have Bernie inked by anyone else. All you have to do is look at the artwork and the credit. Do you see Vince Colletta’s name there? Or even Joe Sinnott’s? Of course not. It’s all Bernie, and there was never any question about the art being handled in any other way. Maybe Bernie had some unpleasant experience at some time with someone else at Marvel trying to get him to let his work be inked by others… but nothing like that was attempted by Bernie in conjunction with that “Kull” story (or with the other horror story he did, a bit later, for Tower of Shadows, in which I also participated), and it’s a gratuitous insult to “remember” that it was. Never happened. As far as I was (and am) concerned, Bernie came through like a champ on #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Above: Letter scribe discusses the similarities (though with a different denouement) of Harvey Kurtzman’s Weird Science #5 story and the plan to achieve world peace by Ozymandias in Alan Moore’s Watchmen. Above is the color guide for page one of “The Last War on Earth.” Courtesy of Heritage. Next page: Herb Trimpe and Marie Severin did cover art chores on Creatures on the Loose #10, the title originally known as Tower of Shadows. Artist Bernie Wrightson submitted art, which was rejected by editor Stan Lee. Still, as he relates in his LOC, Roy Thomas liked the art enough to feature it inside Savage Tales #2 [Oct. ’73].

I just wanted to thank you for Comic Book Creator #6 Swampmen. Swamp Thing and Man-Thing have always been favorites of mine, and I enjoyed learning a little more about them, as well as the others represented within the book. One thing I did want to comment on: When Len Wein commented on where Alan Moore got the plot for Watchmen, I may have found an earlier source. In E.C.’s Weird Science #5 [Jan.–Feb. 1951), Harvey Kurtzman’s story “The Last War on Earth” has many of the same plot elements that makes up the main plot of Ozymandias in Watchmen, though the ending is very different. But the idea of creating an alien menace, sacrificing some number of Earth people, and the nations of Earth uniting against the “alien menace” are all present. Read it and compare. On a personal note, this issue is special to me for another reason. My 13-year-old son has severe autism, and does not speak. We recently found out he understands receptive language very well, and can actually spell out things on a letter board to communicate. In working with his speech therapist, he spelled out how he likes it when people read to him — despite his being able to spell, he still can’t read independently for any length of time. From that, it was suggested I could read to him. Since I had Swampmen out at the moment, I read Sturgeon’s “It” to him, then started on a Doc Savage novel. When we returned to speech therapy, I again I asked him how he liked what we had been reading and he spelled out “I liked ‘It’ — more monster stories please.” It was a nice moment during what has been a challenging 13 years. It’s now one way I can share my hobby with my son. Thanks for publishing Swampmen and including “It!” P.S. We are now reading through some Robert E. Howard stories starting with Solomon Kane. All sorts of monsters there! It’s going great so far!

respect for those considered “different,” and a number of his stories are written from their perspective (i.e., “Some of Your Blood,” “Bright Segment”…not necessarily stories to read to your son, Keith!). He would have been very pleased to hear about this.

Tower of Shadows TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Kull the Conqueror TM & © the Estate of Robert E. Howard.

“Skull of Silence”… and, except for the fact that we had only seven pages or so to play around with (but then, it was a rather short story in the first place), I’m unaware of precisely what Bernie had to be “unhappy” about, other than perhaps being a bit too sensitive for his own good. After we talked — I can’t recall if I gave him written notes as well — he simply drew the story, adding (and I think I had suggested this) the little touch at the end where Kull debates with himself for a second before he again dons the helmet that has fallen from his head during his battle with the monster. Bernie, in fact, seemed quite pleased with the way that story turned out at the time. I don’t have to remember this from verbal comments alone. He even went out of his way to say something complimentary about my scripting in an interview soon afterward. He said of it, and I believe this is a fairly accurate quote, that “it’s one of the best things I’ve seen done.” Right after that, though, things did indeed seem to go wrong, even if I had little to do with any of it. I had Bernie draw a cover, but Stan didn’t care for it… I’m not sure if it was the sketchy quality of Bernie’s style at that time, or the fact that Kull’s face seemed to be turned away from the Skull of Silence and even half looks as if Kull is smiling… but, at any rate, Stan had Herb Trimpe draw a quick slam-bang fight scene, which was used as the cover. I didn’t get a vote. I’d have gone with Bernie’s cover… still would, with no offense to Herb, who was just doing what he was asked to do. However, since Marvel still possessed all the original art to “Skull of Silence” (both story and cover), I reprinted the yarn in black-&-white in Savage Tales, and there I was able to slip in Bernie’s cover as a virtually full page, just as he had drawn it. That was my way of saying, “ I liked your cover, Bernie!” Had Bernie stuck around Marvel a while, instead of (by his own account in the CBC interview) hopping back and forth between the companies to get raises, he’d almost certainly have been offered the art assignment on Kull the Conqueror #1 when it was put on the schedule a few months later. By then, though, he was probably busy with something else at DC… maybe it was even Swamp Thing. Worse even than the above cover mini-fiasco, alas, is the fact that, when “Skull” was printed a second time not many months after its first appearance, the art all disappeared. Stolen, I guess. Bernie, I learned only when I read another interview, said that that meant “the bottom of Roy Thomas’ closet.” I felt unfairly insulted by this offhand, not even to-my-face accusation, and I said so in print at the time… but otherwise I let it go. Years later, I seem to recall, the artwork surfaced and Bernie got it back. I never got an apology, which I felt I was owed… but Bernie has always been friendly when we’ve run into each other, and he allowed me to use some of his Frankenstein art both in Alter Ego and even as a cover, so for the past decade or so I’ve figured it was “all blood under the bridge,” as they said in “Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?” But your question in the interview seems to indicate your prior knowledge that Bernie is still both nurturing a grudge and laboring under at least a partial misapprehension so far as “The Skull of Silence” situation is concerned. I’m truly sorry about that, because for the brief time we worked together on that story, Bernie and I were definitely in sync. He seems to be recalling some parallel-universe version of events related to “The Skull of Silence” that never happened on Earth-Prime. [There was no intention to ask leading questions, Roy, and I wish I could remember context with that 11-year-old interview, but Bernie must’ve brought it up off-tape. — Ye Ed.] Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

Andrew “Hondo” Gray Dear Jon Thing: Well , It finally came! I badgered and pleaded and, when it arrived, I knew I had to save Swampmen for a special occasion, so I could savor every page slowly, carefully, soaking in every swampy word. There it sat, daring me to pick it up, knowing that when I did, I would not stop until it was finished. With springtime comes the warm weather and some time off for Easter and so I decided that this would be the perfect time to crack this thing open and dive on in. First impression, I wonder why Jon didn’t break this into four regular issues. Seems like these phone books are a killer to put together, but hey, let’s not look a gift phone book in the mouth. After getting going, I am astounded by the amount of detail and the look and design of the pages. Jon, you are really a master of magazine design. The pages are so perfectly readable and bear lots of study. You should do this for a living. Even for an old swampmaster like myself, there are many surprises to be found. I was unfamiliar with the Heap and will definitely check some of that stuff out, and I had never read “It,” which I felt was perfectly placed, giving a break between the swampmen and the interviews. After reading “It,“ I was struck by how close the characterization of the creature was to the Man-thing, who was always my favorite of the swamp creatures. When I was 12, I thought Steve Gerber was the best, and he was one of the first writers that I identified and followed. I just couldn’t wait to heap praise on you for this mighty tome. The swamp bible. And I haven’t even finished it yet! The love and care is evident and I feel the same way. Peace Jon, be good and thank you again for Swampmen. [Please consider dropping us a line… our mail box (snail and email) is pretty empty as of late, so send us your bouquets and brickbats, okay? Check out CBC in the early fall for our doublebarreled Peter Bagge/ WARP! Extravaganza (see pg. 79 for details). — Y.E.] Top: Continuing the Mitch O’Connell files, the birth announcement for the artist and Alyson Vetter’s brand-new, bouncing baby boy, Bullitt. 11

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NEAL ADAMS interview about his work at Marvel Comics in the 1960s from AVENGERS to X-MEN, unpublished Adams covers, thumbnail layouts for classic stories, published pages BEFORE they were inked, and unused pages from his NEVER-COMPLETED X-MEN GRAPHIC NOVEL! Plus TOM PALMER on the art of inking Neal Adams, ADAMS’ MARVEL WORK CHECKLIST, & ADAMS wraparound cover!

Definitive JIM WARREN interview about publishing EERIE, CREEPY, VAMPIRELLA, and other fan favorites, in-depth interview with BERNIE WRIGHTSON with unpublished Warren art, plus unseen art, features and interviews with FRANK FRAZETTA, RICHARD CORBEN, AL WILLIAMSON, JACK DAVIS, ARCHIE GOODWIN, HARVEY KURTZMAN, ALEX NINO, and more! BERNIE WRIGHTSON cover!

More on DC COMICS 1967-74, with art by and interviews with NICK CARDY, JOE SIMON, NEAL ADAMS, BERNIE WRIGHTSON, MIKE KALUTA, SAM GLANZMAN, MARV WOLFMAN, IRWIN DONENFELD, SERGIO ARAGONÉS, GIL KANE, DENNY O’NEIL, HOWARD POST, ALEX TOTH on FRANK ROBBINS, DC Writer’s Purge of 1968 by MIKE BARR, JOHN BROOME’s final interview, and more! CARDY cover!

Unpublished and rarely-seen art by, features on, and interviews with 1970s Bullpenners PAUL GULACY, FRANK BRUNNER, P. CRAIG RUSSELL, MARIE and JOHN SEVERIN, JOHN ROMITA SR., DAVE COCKRUM, DON MCGREGOR, DOUG MOENCH, and others! Plus never-beforeseen pencil pages to an unpublished Master of Kung-Fu graphic novel by PAUL GULACY! Cover by FRANK BRUNNER!

Featuring ’70s Marvel greats PAUL GULACY, JOHN BYRNE, RICH BUCKLER, DOUG MOENCH, DAN ADKINS, JIM MOONEY, STEVE GERBER, FRANK SPRINGER, and DENIS KITCHEN! Plus: a rarely-seen Stan Lee P.R. chat promoting the ’60s Marvel cartoon shows, the real trials and tribulations of Comics Distribution, the true story behind the ’70s Kung Fu Craze, and a new cover by PAUL GULACY!

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#10: WALTER SIMONSON

#11: ALEX TOTH AND SHELLY MAYER

#8: ’80s INDEPENDENTS

#9: CHARLTON PART 1

#12: CHARLTON PART 2

Major independent creators and their fabulous books from the early days of the Direct Sales Market! Featured interviews include STEVE RUDE, HOWARD CHAYKIN, DAVE STEVENS, JAIME HERNANDEZ, MICHAEL T. GILBERT, DON SIMPSON, SCOTT McCLOUD, MIKE BARON, MIKE GRELL, and more! Plus plenty of rare and unpublished art, and a new STEVE RUDE cover!

Interviews with Charlton alumni JOE GILL, DICK GIORDANO, STEVE SKEATES, DENNIS O’NEIL, ROY THOMAS, PETE MORISI, JIM APARO, PAT BOYETTE, FRANK MCLAUGHLIN, SAM GLANZMAN, plus ALAN MOORE on the Charlton/ Watchmen Connection, DC’s planned ALLCHARLTON WEEKLY, and more! DICK GIORDANO cover!

Career-spanning SIMONSON INTERVIEW, covering his work from “Manhunter” to Thor to Orion, JOHN WORKMAN interview, TRINA ROBBINS interview, also Trina, MARIE SEVERIN and RAMONA FRADON talk shop about their days in the comics business, MARIE SEVERIN interview, plus other great women cartoonists. New SIMONSON cover!

Interviews with ALEX TOTH, Toth tributes by KUBERT, SIMONSON, JIM LEE, BOLLAND, GIBBONS and others, TOTH on continuity art, TOTH checklist, plus SHELDON MAYER SECTION with a look at SCRIBBLY, interviews with Mayer’s kids (real-life inspiration for SUGAR & SPIKE), and more! Covers by TOTH and MAYER!

CHARLTON COMICS: 1972-1983! Interviews with Charlton alumni GEORGE WILDMAN, NICOLA CUTI, JOE STATON, JOHN BYRNE, TOM SUTTON, MIKE ZECK, JACK KELLER, PETE MORISI, WARREN SATTLER, BOB LAYTON, ROGER STERN, and others, ALEX TOTH, a NEW E-MAN STRIP by CUTI AND STATON, and the art of DON NEWTON! STATON cover!

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#13: MARVEL HORROR

#14: TOWER COMICS & WALLY WOOD

#15: 1980s VANGUARD & DAVE STEVENS

#16: ATLAS/SEABOARD COMICS

#17: ARTHUR ADAMS

1970s Marvel Horror focus, from Son of Satan to Ghost Rider! Interviews with ROY THOMAS, MARV WOLFMAN, GENE COLAN, TOM PALMER, HERB TRIMPE, GARY FRIEDRICH, DON PERLIN, TONY ISABELLA, and PABLOS MARCOS, plus a Portfolio Section featuring RUSS HEATH, MIKE PLOOG, DON PERLIN, PABLO MARCOS, FRED HEMBECK’S DATELINE, and more! New GENE COLAN cover!

Interviews with Tower and THUNDER AGENTS alumni WALLACE WOOD, LOU MOUGIN, SAMM SCHWARTZ, DAN ADKINS, LEN BROWN, BILL PEARSON, LARRY IVIE, GEORGE TUSKA, STEVE SKEATES, and RUSS JONES, TOWER COMICS CHECKLIST, history of TIPPY TEEN, 1980s THUNDER AGENTS REVIVAL, and more! WOOD cover!

Interviews with ’80s independent creators DAVE STEVENS, JAIME, MARIO, AND GILBERT HERNANDEZ, MATT WAGNER, DEAN MOTTER, PAUL RIVOCHE, and SANDY PLUNKETT, plus lots of rare and unseen art from The Rocketeer, Love & Rockets, Mr. X, Grendel, other ’80s strips, and more! New cover by STEVENS and the HERNANDEZ BROS.!

’70s ATLAS COMICS HISTORY! Interviews with JEFF ROVIN, ROY THOMAS, ERNIE COLÓN, STEVE MITCHELL, LARRY HAMA, HOWARD CHAYKIN, SAL AMENDOLA, JIM CRAIG, RIC MEYERS, and ALAN KUPPERBERG, Atlas Checklist, HEATH, WRIGHTSON, SIMONSON, MILGROM, AUSTIN, WEISS, and STATON discuss their Atlas work, and more! COLÓN cover!

Discussion with ARTHUR ADAMS about his career (with an extensive CHECKLIST, and gobs of rare art), plus GRAY MORROW tributes from friends and acquaintances and a MORROW interview, Red Circle Comics Checklist, interviews with & remembrances of GEORGE ROUSSOS & GEORGE EVANS, Gallery of Morrow, Evans, and Roussos art, EVERETT RAYMOND KINSTLER interview, and more! New ARTHUR ADAMS cover!

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#18: 1970s MARVEL COSMIC COMICS

#19: HARVEY COMICS

#20: ROMITAs & KUBERTs #21: ADAM HUGHES, ALEX #22: GOLD KEY COMICS & examinations: RUSS MANNING ROSS, & JOHN BUSCEMA Interviews & Magnus Robot Fighter, WALLY WOOD &

Roundtable with JIM STARLIN, ALAN WEISS and AL MILGROM, interviews with STEVE ENGLEHART, STEVE LEIALOHA, and FRANK BRUNNER, art from the lost WARLOCK #16, plus a FLO STEINBERG CELEBRATION, with a Flo interview, tributes by HERB TRIMPE, LINDA FITE, BARRY WINDSOR-SMITH, and others! STARLIN/ MILGROM/WEISS cover!

History of Harvey Comics, from Hot Stuf’, Casper, and Richie Rich, to Joe Simon’s “Harvey Thriller” line! Interviews with, art by, and tributes to JACK KIRBY, STERANKO, WILL EISNER, AL WILLIAMSON, GIL KANE, WALLY WOOD, REED CRANDALL, JOE SIMON, WARREN KREMER, ERNIE COLÓN, SID JACOBSON, FRED RHOADES, and more! New wraparound MITCH O’CONNELL cover!

Joint interview between Marvel veteran and superb Spider-Man artist JOHN ROMITA, SR. and fan favorite Thor/Hulk renderer JOHN ROMITA, JR.! On the flipside, JOE, ADAM & ANDY KUBERT share their histories and influences in a special roundtable conversation! Plus unpublished and rarely seen artwork, and a visit by the ladies VIRGINIA and MURIEL! Flip-covers by the KUBERTs and the ROMITAs!

ADAM HUGHES ART ISSUE, with a comprehensive interview, unpublished art, & CHECKLIST! Also, a “Day in the Life” of ALEX ROSS (with plenty of Ross art)! Plus a tribute to the life and career of one of Marvel’s greatest artists, JOHN BUSCEMA, with testimonials from his friends and peers, art section, and biographical essay. HUGHES and TOM PALMER flip-covers!

Total War M.A.R.S. Patrol, Tarzan by JESSE MARSH, JESSE SANTOS and DON GLUT’S Dagar and Dr. Spektor, Turok, Son of Stone’s ALBERTO GIOLITTI and PAUL S. NEWMAN, plus Doctor Solar, Boris Karloff, The Twilight Zone, and more, including MARK EVANIER on cartoon comics, and a definitive company history! New BRUCE TIMM cover!

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#23: MIKE MIGNOLA

#24: NATIONAL LAMPOON COMICS

#25: ALAN MOORE AND KEVIN NOWLAN

COMIC BOOK ARTIST: SPECIAL EDITION #1

COMIC BOOK ARTIST: SPECIAL EDITION #2

Exhaustive MIGNOLA interview, huge art gallery (with never-seen art), and comprehensive checklist! On the flip-side, a careerspanning JILL THOMPSON interview, plus tons of art, and studies of Jill by ALEX ROSS, STEVE RUDE, P. CRAIG RUSSELL, and more! Also, interview with JOSÉ DELBO, and a talk with author HARLAN ELLISON on his various forays into comics! New MIGNOLA HELLBOY cover!

GAHAN WILSON and NatLamp art director MICHAEL GROSS speak, interviews with and art by NEAL ADAMS, FRANK SPRINGER, SEAN KELLY, SHARY FLENNEKIN, ED SUBITSKY, M.K. BROWN, B.K. TAYLOR, BOBBY LONDON, MICHEL CHOQUETTE, ALAN KUPPERBERG, and more! Features new covers by GAHAN WILSON and MARK BODÉ!

Focus on AMERICA’S BEST COMICS! ALAN MOORE interview on everything from SWAMP THING to WATCHMEN to ABC and beyond! Interviews with KEVIN O’NEILL, CHRIS SPROUSE, JIM BAIKIE, HILARY BARTA, SCOTT DUNBIER, TODD KLEIN, JOSE VILLARRUBIA, and more! Flip-side spotlight on the amazing KEVIN NOWLAN! Covers by J.H. WILLIAMS III & NOWLAN!

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Previously available only to CBA subscribers! Spotlights great DC Comics of the ’70s: Interviews with MARK EVANIER and STEVE SHERMAN on JACK KIRBY’s Fourth World, ALEX TOTH on his mystery work, NEAL ADAMS on Superman vs. Muhammad Ali, RUSS HEATH on Sgt. Rock, BRUCE JONES discussing BERNIE WRIGHTSON (plus a WRIGHTSON portfolio), and a BRUCE TIMM interview, art gallery, and cover!

Compiles the new “extras” from CBA COLLECTION VOL. 1-3: unpublished JACK KIRBY story, unpublished BERNIE WRIGHTSON art, unused JEFF JONES story, ALAN WEISS interview, examination of STEVE ENGLEHART and MARSHALL ROGERS’ 1970s Batman work, a look at DC’s rare Cancelled Comics Cavalcade, PAUL GULACY art gallery, Marvel Value Stamp history, Mr. Monster’s scrapbook, and more!

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the good stuff

Working on a Dream The remarkable and undeniably passionate artwork of Parisian artist Leila Leiz by George khoury CBC Contributing Editor Inset right: A photo portrait of comic book artist Leila Leiz, courtesy of LL. The Paris native is hoping to break into the American comics field. Below: Batgirl pin-up by Leila.

Below and background: Leila sent us this great image of the artist drawing in her sketchbook while on vacation in Turkey.

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Art © Leila Leiz. Batgirl TM © DC Comics.

If you haven’t yet heard of her name, you soon will. Because, across the sea, the alluring artwork of Leila Leiz is making waves in Europe, waves heading westward to our shore. Leila’s illustrations are full of buoyancy and life with her pitch-perfect storytelling invitingly stylish and smooth. But the French artist’s most admirable attribute is this relentless spirit to rise above by drawing like there’s no tomorrow in the pursuit of perfection. This undeniable passion for the art form of comics is what compels her from ever backing down from whatever challenges life presents. Besides having the heart of a true artist, Leila is one of the most driven and genuine people you’ll ever meet anywhere. Growing up in Paris, art always has a part in her life. She’s visited all the great museums, expositions, and theaters that her hometown offers; she has also seen all the essential works of the great masters. But when Paris became too small for her imagination, Leila became a globetrotter, traveling the world to experience different countries and cultures up close. “I realize over time that we were all the same

all from the same planet,” says the artist, “I’m not French, Italian, or Arabic. I’m a citizen of Earth. All those experiences taught me more about drawing than my hours of practicing on paper.” After those soul-searching voyages, Leila settled down in Italy eight years ago. She had fallen hard for the country, its culture, and its people. In terms of Leila’s career, comics is where she found her calling, but she has had to muster great inner strength to transform this dream into reality. The artist says, “As far as I can remember I’ve always been attracted to art and drawing, but I tried to keep it as a side passion until the day I entered a comic book shop. All those super-heroes, those colors, the fun and enthusiasm of the readers; I just wanted to be a part of this family. So I decided to see if I could get lucky by using all of my savings to purchase an airline ticket to attend the Chicago comic con with my portfolio.” Following her intuition, she traveled all the way to Wizard World, in 1999. Unfortunately, this adventure proved to be a disheartening experience. “At that time,” remembers Leila, “it was difficult for women in the comics industry. It’s not like it is today. I didn’t know anybody and my English was really bad. Add to this I’m a shy person. The results were drastic. I came back to France with my portfolios and a ton of sadness. After that, I decided to keep drawing as a hobby. But I kept this notion that I wanted to obtain this dream to myself.” She went to Chicago with a goal: to meet art idol Marc Silvestri and land an assignment at Top Cow. When that didn’t work out, she felt dejected. But Leila was a long way from being counted out because the ordeal only made this particular self-taught

More on George: https://www.facebook.com/comicbookfever

artist become more determined to reach her goal. “My father was an artist and pushed me towards that direction. He had to give up his passion to feed his family. So every time I draw, I draw a little for him,” says this devoted daughter. Fortunately, things began to pick up when she started working as illustrator for a video game company. “A colleague there suggested I meet up with his friend, a comics writer and cartoonist, who was searching for a penciler. That friend turned out to be Farid Boudjellal, who eight months later contacted me and proposed a new project. After that we worked on his story, Les Contes du Djinn [Tales of the Genie], we published two books and since then I’ve done others book in French. The experience with Farid has been both valuable and unforgettable,” states Leila.

Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

One opportunity led to another, and she connected with major Italian comics publisher Bonelli. Leila remembers, “A good friend of mine introduced me to Bonelli Editore by sending them my portfolio. After five minutes, they called me back because the editor was really impressed with my work. Working for Bonelli was a long-time dream, the biggest event of my career so far. As you can guess, I was extremely nervous about this opportunity, but everything went smoothly. Lysierum was the title of the book. It’s about a perfect world without violence, chaos, unemployment, and crisis. It’s also a world without children. The life and death cycle is ruled by a sophisticated apparatus that distributes the vital essences of terminated adults into new young bodies ready to work. So there’s no need to fall in love and conceive babies. But, one day, this apparatus jams, freeing a young woman, Elyet, not yet ‘purified’ by its original biological nature and primitive instincts. One of the executors,

Above: Visit Leila’s Deviant Art web page to view her full series of interlocking Marvel Comics character renderings. Here’s Spider Gwen and X-23. Below: The artist has teamed with scribe Fabrice Sapolsky to produce the comics series Harem. Here’s a vignette of one of her femme fatales.

Above: Artist Leila Leiz pays homage to the masterful Norman Rockwell in this self-portrait. Inset right: We’re not sure of the exact release date of Leila and Fabrice Sapolsky’s Harem but, having seen samples on LL’s Facebook page, we’re betting real soon! Below: LL selfie.

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Art © Leila Leiz. Harem TM & © Fabrice Sapolsky & Leila Leiz.

Nihil, is assigned to find and terminate her since she does not suit Lysierum’s rules. In meeting Elyet, Nihil discovers how the complex nature of an ‘original’ human being.” She adds, “I hope people can read my new book because the visuals are amazing and the story, written by Alberto Ostini, is interesting. He also writes for television, and his style is a merge of comics and movie, that’s why his stories are so different and incredible. Unfortunately, Bonelli Editore is based in Italy, and only a handful of their stories have reached international markets, but we are hoping this work merits a translation for the U.S. market.” Like many artists today, Leila is very active on social media. It helps her stay in touch with her fans, editors, writers, and colleagues. Online, she has amassed a fan base that money can’t buy. “I joined the social media pretty late,” says Leila, “but when I started I discovered a new world. I started posting my drawings on some platforms for fun only. But later on, every ‘like,’ comment, and criticism, good or bad, helped me understand

what was right — and wrong — with my art. This continuous feedback is the engine that pushes me to improve. I’ve met some incredible people and, honestly, I have to thank them all because their support gives me the strength on those bad days… when, for example, an enthusiastic editor for a new project disappears, and you start to feel lost. It genuinely helps. This work is complicated and to have so many people push you makes the difference. I thank them all every day.” Presently, Leila is vigorously at work on Harem, her first ongoing series. “There were many challenges with this project,” says the artist. “First, keeping yourself motivated when things are not going as smoothly as you expect. Creator-owned comics are definitely challenging. You have to have nerves of steel to carry on! And work basically for free until the book comes out — and we have to pay for inks and colors. This is an enormous personal gamble — but we couldn’t have done it differently.” “Harem is my and [writer] Fabrice Sapolsky’s baby,” states Leila. “We don’t want anyone to interfere with our vision. We have faith in this project. People will understand why it’s so dear to us when they have the book in their hands.” The series represents a significant independent effort for Leiz and her writing collaborator, who have invested a lot of themselves, including their finances, into turning this project into a reality. Hints Leiz, “Harem is a post-feminist kind of story. It tells the tale of liberation about 99 women brought into the sultan’s harem during the Middle Ages or the Renaissance to be concubines and slaves, they are also selected to be ‘Flowers of Islam.’ It’s like a sisterhood of genies. They have super-powers. They don’t age. But they’re at the Sultan’s service. They’re not people; they’re weapons. When the Ottoman Empire disappeared in 1921, the harem is sealed, and most of the girls on the mission can’t make it home. For nearly a century, they live free until it changes, and someone starts pulling the strings. This is where our story begins. The concubines will have to unite and face a new and unknown enemy who can control each one of them while ultimately trying to free themselves.” “Fabrice came up to me with the idea for Harem two years ago,” adds the artist. “He wanted to work with me and tailored this project for me. He was very clear that he wanted us to co-create this book together. The main characters were in Fabrice’s initial pitch, and I loved the idea immediately. Based on his script, I designed them. As we continued working on the book, I began to feel more comfortable and suggested ideas and characters. Fabrice and I would discuss them and most of the time he would incorporate my suggestions into the script, which I’m happy about. Harem is a real collaborative book.” While her original trip to America in 1999 may not have been a success, Leila’s not the type of woman who lets a little thing like rejection get in her way. This summer she’ll be back in the States to show everyone what she’s all about, only this time as a seasoned veteran of the comic book arts. “I’ll be in New York for the con this June,” says Leila. “I’ll have a table with Fabrice to showcase my drawings, my new sketchbook, and my new project. It’s an excellent opportunity to meet up with the American public and fellow professionals. Depending on the results, I could be back in October for the New York Comic Con, because a few schools have asked me to give some lectures about illustration. I’m trying to focus on the American [market] for two reasons: the American comics format suits my art better and,” she adds definitively, “it’s my longtime dream to make it there.”

Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

The Other Man Called Stan

Stan G.’s Truest Colors Part one of our interview with the late, great artist about his Marvel and Archie work Conducted by RICHARD J. ARNDT CBC Contributing Editor

Above: In 2010, in consideration for Stan Goldberg’s considerable contributions to Archie Comics from the mid-1970s onward, IDW published Archie: The Best of Stan Goldberg. Inset: The artist at the 2012 Comic-Con International: San Diego in a photo by Kendall Whitehouse. Below: Detail of Stan G.’s Millie the Model #140 [Aug. 1966] cover.

CBC: Thank you for taking the time for this interview. Stan: You’re welcome. I regard all the time I’ve spent in comics with a great fondness. All the people I’ve worked with — Joe Maneely, Stan Lee, John Buscema, Sol Brodsky, Mike Esposito, Frank Springer, all those guys. It’s all real history and I’ve got a great memory. I remember them very fondly. Now that the whole interview is over, thank you for calling, Richard, and that’s the end of it. CBC: Ooookay! [laughter] Before that actually happens can we start off with information about your early life? How you got interested in drawing, that sort of thing. Stan: I grew up during the Depression, in the 1930s. Money was pretty tight in those days, but my dad was fortunate enough to work for those years. Sometimes he had private jobs, but for the most part he worked for the government until he retired. He worked in the Social Security Administration and in the Internal Revenue Service. I was an only child, but that was fine. I didn’t have to share anything with a sibling and I never even missed having a brother or sister, because it was the type of family that would be called an “extended family” today. There was the matriarch, the grandmother, and the patriarch, the grandfather. Mine had a little house in the Bronx. They came from Europe and worked themselves up. They lived in the Lower East Side, where all the new immigrants lived. My grandfather was a tailor. He designed clothes and that sort of thing. When they made enough money, they moved to the Bronx, which at the time was considered moving on up. They bought a little house and had four children, one of whom was my mother. Their house was the meeting place for all the relatives. I had aunts and uncles and a few cousins and we all hung out together. I was always treated quite royally because I was a good grandson. The good nephew. The good son.

Photo © Kendall Whitehouse. Archie TM & © Archie Publications, Inc. Millie the Model TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

[Stan Goldberg began his career in comics in 1949 as a colorist for Timely Comics. Within a few years he became the head of the colorist department, which lasted until ’58, when Timely/Atlas experienced a publication implosion after their distributor went out of business. He then went freelance (and has remained so throughout the rest of his career), beginning with work in TV commercials, then as the colorist for Marvel Comics from ’59 through the mid-’60s. He was also a penciler for numerous teen humor books, including Marvel’s Millie the Model, DC’s Binky and, most notably, Archie Comics’ Archie, among many others. In recent years, before his death last August, he worked for Bongo Comics drawing The Simpsons and for Papercutz on their Three Stooges and Nancy Drew titles. He also did many public service projects, including a one recently dealing with bullying. Mr. Goldberg has been a true mainstay of comics from the Golden Age to his passing at age 82. What follows is the first of a two-part interview conducted between March and April 2013. — RJA]

I always drew, so I was always sitting in a corner and they’d ask “Draw this. Draw that,” and I did. I wasn’t running around the house screaming or breaking things or causing trouble. My cousins used to tease me, you know. “Everybody loves Stanley.” But it was an easy childhood. Of course, my parents knew that I drew and they always encouraged me at it, but they never encouraged me to go out and make a living as an artist. Not because of any lack of talent, but they never thought I would succeed. Nobody really knew what jobs were available for artists in those days. My dad worked for the government and he suggested that I get a federal job, take some tests, work, and retire with a nice pension at the age of 49 or 50. My dad, though, worked until he was 75, and he loved working. My mother would always say, “On Sunday, you can sit home and paint. I’ll buy you an easel.” It never dawned on me that I’d end up with a career as an artist. I graduated from high school. In fact, I got out a little early because I skipped some classes. I graduated when I was 17 years old. Most kids didn’t graduate until they were 18 or older. I went away as a counselor at a summer camp, up in New Hampshire, teaching arts and crafts. When

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photo © Jason Chatfield. Archie characters TM & © Archie Publications, Inc. The Thing TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

I came back, I called up a good friend from school and asked him what he’d been doing all summer. He told me he had this job, but that he wasn’t going back there on Monday, so why didn’t I go up there and take his seat because they’ll need somebody up there. I didn’t even know what job he had, but it turned out that he had a coloring job in the office of Timely Comics. He’d been doing some menial coloring gigs there. There were a lot of books there and a lot of pages to do. So I went up there on Monday and I remember a guy came in who ran the department and he asked me who I was and what I was doing there. I told him I was taking over for my friend — my friend’s name was Marvin — that Marvin wasn’t coming back and he’d asked me to take his chair. I don’t know why, but they gave me some things to do immediately and that’s how I came to work at Timely Comics. This would have been the end of August, so at the beginning of the next year, which would have been 1949, the whole bullpen was fired. I was there for four months and then, I don’t know why, but everybody was laid off. Within a few months they were publishing again and they started hiring artists, writers, and production people back. They wanted me to return to work in the coloring department and, because I had another job by then and I was afraid they’d fire me just as soon as I returned, so I told them no. I didn’t hear from them for a while. Then I got another note from them asking me to please come back. “We like what you do. We’ll give you a couple of dollars raise.” You know, it’s funny: There was another guy up there who got a callback, too, and we thought we were both getting a five dollar raise but they split it between the two of us, so we both got $2.50 apiece. It was a big $25 salary I was making at the time but, in those days, $25 was not that bad for a 17-, almost 18-year-old kid. I also liked that I was working on all the comics that I’d read as a young boy. I sit at my grandmother’s house, on her porch, reading all the comics. I loved Captain America. I loved the Young Allies. I loved those books, but didn’t know who the artists’ names were. I knew all the characters though. I did come back to Timely although it took until the third time that they called me. The job I had in the meantime looked like it wasn’t going anywhere. Not that I knew that this one was going to last for over 60 years! But it did. So I went back and, within a year, I was running the coloring department. The guy, John D’Agonisto, who’d been running it before me, was about three years older than me. About six months or so after I returned, he went to another company to work in their coloring department. That company that John went to was also started by two former Timely colorists. One of them was a Italian fellow who later became an editor at Charlton Comics… CBC: Would that have been Pat Musulli? Stan: Yeah, that would have been Pat. Pat and another guy Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

named Hubie Paley. They formed their own coloring company. They worked for a bunch of different companies coloring their books. They did very well for a long time because there were a lot of publishers around putting out comic books and some of them didn’t have a color department. So Pat and Hubie formed this company and did alright with it for quite a while. I don’t know what their rates were, but they had a lot of work. I freelanced for them from time to time, after the day’s work at Timely. I’d spend half the night making some extra money working for them. One night I worked the whole night there. I told my parents where I was going to be, though. John D’Agonisto left Timely to work for them, clearing the way for me to become the head of the coloring department at Timely. John became an artist, working as an inker. He worked for Archie Comics for years and years. He inked probably hundreds of my pages. We were good friends right up until his death a year or so ago. Up until then, he was my oldest friend in the business because I met him when I was 17 years old. The Timely offices were in the Empire State Building at that time. The coloring department was a part of the Bullpen. We were in a different area at first, but shortly, after I came back, they moved the coloring department in with the rest of the Bullpen. We were in a different area because the offices at the Empire State Building were too small. When Timely moved to a different building we had a bigger space and were all moved into the same offices. After the Empire State Building, we moved to a big old hotel on Park Avenue. I think it was called the Hotel Marguerite and

Previous page: Inset bottom, courtesy of Heritage Auctions, is Stan G.’s cover art for Millie the Model #165 [Dec. 1968]. Above: Stan Goldberg was honored by the Australian Cartoonists’ Association in 2010 as he received their Stanley Award for the “Comic Book Artist” category. Courtesy of then-ACA president Jason Chatfield. Below: Kirby & Ayers’ Thing pin-up from FF #2. Hues by Stan G. Courtesy of Cory Sedlmeier.

Above: Stan Goldberg marveled at the facility and speed of Atlas artist Joe Maneely, specifically recalling Joe’s layouts on The Black Knight, #5 [Apr. 1956]. At top is a photo of the admired artist from 1958, whose life was tragically cut short in an accident that same year, when only 32. Courtesy of Dr. Michael J. Vassallo. Below: During Ye Ed’s stint on Comic Book Artist, plans were in place to cover the career of Stan G. In appreciation, Stan included this sketch.

sodas when it should have been work time and now there’s a big card game every day when you should be eating your lunch!” Then he started laughing. Stan was a good boss. He knew we always got the work out. We always played with two decks because there was only one hour, so while we were playing cards with the one deck, somebody was shuffling the second deck for the next hand, so no time was lost. I was making about $75 a week by then and I was running the whole department. Even at 10¢ or 20¢ a hand you could wind up losing five or ten bucks. That was a lot back then. Still, it never was a killer game. It was never like that, just fun and laughs. Nobody caused any problems. Later the games moved to folks’ homes for a once-amonth thing. The longest lasting regulars were John Romita, Sol Brodsky, Al Sulman (who was Stan’s assistant), me, and later, Roy Thomas. Roy was there for the last half or so. During the 1970s and ’80s, we usually played at Roy’s house, or at Al’s. Al was a bachelor, so we didn’t have to worry about a wife and Roy had a big apartment. The last regular to join was probably Al Milgrom. Al was one of the young guys who joined for the last few years. There was always a good core, though, of five or six regulars. Al would probably have made it seven…. In those years, the 1950s, the Bullpen had 50 books a month or more to put out. Not just 32-page books, either, there were 48-page books and even 64-page books. Big books! I ran the coloring department there during those years so I knew exactly what the schedule was. I remember one letterer named Ray Robinson, who was putting in a lot of hours one day. He might have worked all night the night before, doing corrections, cleaning up pages. He opened up a bottle beside him and, I think, smoke came out of it. I don’t know what was in the bottle, but I guess it kept him going for another couple of hours! There was a great camaraderie among the bullpen. We had black guys, Asian guys, Italians, Jews, a couple of Greeks — everybody had the greatest time because we had so many cartoons going back and forth in that room. I’ve mentioned some of the Asian fellows, but Ray Holloway was one of the black guys and the other was also named Holloway, although they weren’t related to each other. I think the second guy’s name was Bill or something like that. There were some lady editors up there, but most of the editors were guys. One of the lady editors would buy all the gag cartoons for all the magazines. I’ve been asked before if it was tough getting into the business with a name like Goldberg. I guess a lot of people had a rough time getting started because of their names or color or whatever. But for me, the answer was “No!” It never dawned on me that kind of thing would ever be a problem. I’m sure in the advertising industry that happened. None of the advertising companies had an ethnic name in their roster. They had names like Burns or Grey or names like that. Maybe people just changed their names. CBC: Both Lee and Kirby changed theirs. Stan: Jerry Della Femina changed all that. He wrote a wonderful book on advertising called From Those Wonderful Folks Who Brought You Pearl Harbor. When the TV show Mad Men became so popular on television, the publisher re-released that book because it was so apropos of that era. In those days, 90% of what they could get away with on television was coming from Della Femina’s advertising agency. My son went to work for Della Femina in their latter days and I heard lots of stories about that place from him. Actually [Martin] Goodman had two Bullpens. One was the Timely Bullpen — just comics — and the other was for Magazine Management. The comics were part of Magazine Management, but we had a separate Bullpen. The other one put out a line of men’s adventure magazines that were kind of poor imitations of Argosy or True. They did fine, sales wise, though. Mel Blum was the art director there and Larry Lieber, Stan Lee’s brother, worked in that Bullpen at the time. #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Black Knight TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Archie TM & © Archie Publications, Inc.

it had been converted into offices. It wasn’t really a good workspace. We moved later to Madison Avenue, which is the main avenue of New York City, and we got a decent amount of workspace there. That was in a very new building. The Bullpen was in that big room. Stan’s office was right next door. He had his own office. Stan and I became very close because I was doing the coloring for all the covers for them, Timely or Atlas or whatever they were calling themselves. I got to know what Stan liked and I always gave it to him. He was pretty definite about what he liked. I was a good worker and it was always easy working with Stan. Once in a while, Stan would give me these little three-page horror stories to draw, which I did. They showed up in titles like Marvel Tales or Tales to Astonish. All the stories in those books were three- or fouror five-page horror stories. We weren’t doing super-heroes at that time. Some of the stories I drew made it into print. Some never did. Some were redrawn by other artists. It was a learning process. I’m glad I never made it my life’s voyage working on those horror stories. A few years back they reprinted one in Alter Ego #18, when they did a story on me, but I didn’t want them to reprint it. I thought it was that bad. They told me they weren’t going to do the story on me unless I let them reprint that big old three-pager. If you ever want to see it, it’s in Alter Ego #18. Just take a look at it with your eyes closed or at least one eye! [laughs] You know, some guys start off great artists and some guys, like me, have to grow into it. This just came to mind: At the Hotel Marguerite, we always played cards — every lunch hour. Always poker. We’d eat our lunch beforehand, so we could use the whole hour to play cards. We played on a big table used for the production department. We took everything off the table — the cutting board and the other things. I remember Stan once coming in and he was kidding around — but meaning it too, see? He said “I pay you guys so you can eat your lunch at lunch time, not eat it early. You had your sandwiches and your

Hero in Action © the Estate of Stan Goldberg. Archie Andrews TM & © Archie Publications, Inc.

The Timely Bullpen of the 1950s had some heavy hitters. There was Carl Burgos, who did a lot of the covers, John Severin, Bill Everett, Sol Brodsky, Fred Kida, and the biggest guy of all, a giant in the field — Joe Maneely. I got to watch Maneely doing a breakdown on a Black Knight cover. He’d take his pencil to do a quick, rough pencil layout, then use his pen to tighten it up and outline everything. Throw his blacks in and there was the Black Knight, being chased by 14,000 other guys on horses, in full armor. Then he’d set that down and do a Petey the Pest cover or whatever, then do a great crime story or a Western. He was the most unassuming guy, the nicest guy in the world. He died at the age of 32, falling off a commuter train on the way home to New Jersey. [Maneely was near-sighted and had broken his glasses. On the way home one Friday night or early Saturday morning, he stepped between the cars for some fresh air and somehow fell between them. — RJA.] I remember that they found him still holding his briefcase with all the work he was planning to do that weekend. I mentioned him at the Comic-Con last year, in San Diego. I was on a panel about Jack Kirby. I’ve done those in the past, too. Mark Evanier always asks me to get involved in that sort of thing, ’cause I knew Jack so well when he was in New York. Joe Maneely came up. Now, Kirby knew Maneely and there was some reference to that fact in the latest issue of The Jack Kirby Collector. Maneely worked day and night on his stories. Between Jack Kirby and Joe Maneely, I can’t imagine how powerful the super-hero stories of the early 1960s would have been had Joe survived. What the industry would have looked like, I can’t imagine, because Maneely was truly Stan’s favorite artist and everybody knew it. I think Joe even drew a comic strip that Stan sold called Mrs. Lyon’s Cubs or something like that. Joe was a real sweet guy. Jack Kirby once said — I never heard this from Jack, but my friend Mark Evanier told me this story once — Jack Kirby said “You spend too much time in this business. If you spend night and day, giving up other important things in your life, you’ll get the Joe Maneely disease.” Joe was pretty unique though. He was married. He had two daughters. His wife was pregnant again. He was a great artist. Had friends. Loved to play cards. So he had a social life. Maybe Jack Kirby didn’t really know him that well. A Joe Maneely story for you: this was when everybody was laid off from Timely in 1958, and Joe had gone to work at DC Comics. I met Joe coming out of the DC offices and we started talking. He’d just gotten his earnings statement from DC for the last three or four months, because it was tax time. Joe says to me “I can’t believe I’ve done so much work for DC. I earned $22,000 up there!” Joe was about the fastest and the best in the business. He was so modest though. He could turn out an incredible amount of work in a short time and it was all top-notch work. Joe was truly a workaholic. You know, at Marvel, we had a nickname for Joe. We called him “Joe Money” because he was so fast. He always laughed at that. He earned a lot of money even though the rate wasn’t all that great because he was just so fast. Jack Kirby was, you know, Jack Kirby! I got to know Jack pretty well when he lived in New York. When he moved out to California, I only got to see him when he’d come into New York for a comic convention. Then I’d see him when he came into the office. Never met him at his home. I only met his wife at a Comic-Con a few years after Jack died. I look at that Collector magazine that John Morrow puts out and I love Kirby’s work more today than I probably did back then. I probably took him for granted back then. In fact, I know I did. Now that he’s gone, though, you see what he did, what only he could do and it was simply amazing. His reputation as the “King of Comics” is well-earned. I get a cup of coffee in the morning and look at all that pencil art of Kirby’s in the Collector and just marvel at it. The pencil work is so amazing that it’s like he wasn’t human, but I know he’s human because I had lunch with him so many times. Sometimes at those lunches, Jack would serenade us with stories Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

and concepts that he’d like to see or put in comics. He had an imagination! Sol Brodsky, who’d have lunch with us, would say “I don’t know what goes on in that guy’s head.” Jack was really an amazing man. John Buscema, a great artist and good friend, once told me there was only one great artist in comics and that was Kirby. John was not a guy to mince words. He was right in your face all the time. But that’s how much John looked up to Jack. Everybody did. He was the greatest. As Stan would say “Nuff said!” Getting to know Joe Maneely and Jack Kirby like I did, I feel blessed. Knowing people like that in the industry and those other guys I just mentioned, I’ve been very fortunate in being around some very talented guys. When you were working with guys like that you had to bring your “A” game, your best work possible. Another Maneely story: I used to go to a class with a live model. I’ve always loved to draw from a model. I told Joe that I went to this class. It was back in an old high school that I went to. Joe said “Maybe I’ll join you.” I said “Joe, you wanna come?” And he said “Yeah, sure!” So me and the other guys from the coloring department and

Above: After Stan and Pauline Goldberg suffered a serious car accident, the Hero Initiative came to help. A grateful Stan G. drew this page, featuring sons Stephen and Bennet, for a Hero benefit book. Below: Stan G.’s Archie Andrews.

Above: Though Stan G. warned his boss that coloring the Hulk shades of gray would likely reproduce poorly, Marvel’s Stan Lee insisted. As we all know, when the results were examined, the man-monster’s skin was changed to green after The Incredible Hulk #1 [May ’62] was printed. Below: You might think the two Stans are being combative in this snapshot taken at the 2012 Big Apple Con, but the two oft-collaborators are actually telling one another the equivalent of, “No, you’re the Man, Stan!” Note our new pal Timely artist Allen Bellman to the far right and, the guy in the middle looking at his camera, Doc V. himself, otherwise known as Dr. Michael J. Vassallo, Timely/ Atlas/Marvel Comics historian. In a tribute, Lee called Goldberg peer a great cartoonist and “the greatest guy to work with.”

Georgia, I think. I think the only big-time artist that I wanted to meet and never did was Alex Toth. I always admired his work. He was fantastic! Steve Ditko and I were both students of Jerry Robinson when Jerry was the teacher at the School of Visual Arts. He was the cartooning instructor there, and we were both in his class. Jerry was very, very proud that at one time we were both his students. He was very happy that we both became such successful students. A funny story about Jerry: he’d always introduce me as the guy who colored comic books. I’d tell them that I was the guy who destroyed all of Jerry Robinson’s great artwork by muddying it up or putting bright colors on it when that wasn’t the right approach. I’d say that every time I visited and he’d always laugh. Jerry went on to become one of the first and best ambassadors for comics. He traveled all over the world, worked at businesses, and ran a syndicate for political cartoons with contributing artists from all over the world. He never forgot comics though and was a great spokesman for the industry. Steve Ditko once told Robin Snyder, who’s a good friend of mine, that I was the best colorist that he’d ever had. That was really nice of him. One time though, Ditko wrote something in an article that I knew was absolutely wrong. He wrote that when he got the first issue of Spider-Man done that he brought in the color breakdown that he wanted for the pages. He mentioned some particular color scheme. Then he said he gave that color breakdown to Stan Lee to pass on to me. Stan never gave anything like that to me. The reason I did the red and the dark blue the way I did was that the book came in right after I’d just finished coloring a Fantastic Four issue and that blue for the Fantastic Four was a real solid blue. The blue that I put down in Spider-Man was a blue with a lot of red in it. A really deep blue. Almost a black/ blue or purple. The webs stood out on the red and merged in good with the blue-black on there. Stan trusted me and let me do whatever I wanted. Whatever the color an artist wanted I tried to do, but some of the guys would come over to my desk and say “How could you do this? This is what I wanted you to do!” Howie Post would come over and say “This is what I want done. This is the only way I want it done.” Then I’d go check with Stan and tell him what they were saying. Stan would ask who it was and I’d say Howie Post. He’d say “Do what you like. You do it the way you do it and I’ll like it. Don’t listen to whatever these guys are saying.” Frankly, a lot of the things that Stan suggested I didn’t like either, because I think, color-wise, it didn’t work. Stan has strong opinions though. Stan thought only of a book being on the rack. He was picky about the cover. Not so much the insides. He kind of left that up to me. But the cover of that book on the rack should have color that would bounce off the wall. If I could put a blast of red on it or put a German with his uniform on and I could make that uniform look red or bright yellow as a knockout or special effect [then Stan was happy]. Or maybe put a red against a blue. He even asked me to alter the word balloons on the cover. They had thin lines around them, which was fine, but Stan always wanted me to put a thick outline around them and color bright red around it so it would stand out, make it as eye-popping as possible. That was important, because Stan wanted the book to sell. The printing wasn’t always so good in those early days and I tried to do the grays or browns, but they didn’t work out too well. Sometimes what you do is the best way to do it, for you, and you don’t need anybody else to tell you. Naturally, I listened to what Stan told me but a lot of times he didn’t even want to see it. He was just too busy so he trusted me to send it out because he liked what I did and knew that I knew what it should be. CBC: That was something I wanted to ask you about. On the first issue of the Hulk, he was colored gray. He only went green in the second issue. Was that color change because gray and brown just didn’t reproduce well? #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Incredible Hulk TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Joe went and Joe’s sitting there drawing the model. There wasn’t really a teacher. There was a guy who brought the model and made sure that everything ran smoothly. Anyway, this teacher, this guy was walking behind us, and I noticed him spending a little more time than with the rest of us looking over Joe’s shoulder at Joe’s drawing of the model. It might have been just one of those quick-minute poses that you do to capture the moment — fast. Just get the action and have some fun with it. What Joe could do in a short span of time like that, or a five-minute or ten-minute pose was incredible! Joe finished his drawing. Later I spoke to the teacher and told him that Joe was one of the top comic book guys. He was amazed! Joe only came the one time, but I’ll never forget it. When Dick Ayers came to Timely, he was a young artist with a lot of talent. He started doing the war and Western stories and he did an excellent job. I was talking with Dick one day and I told him what Joe Maneely said to me, “This new kid, Dick, is really doing fine.” Maneely was completely sincere about it. I told that to Dick Ayers. I told him “You know who one of your biggest fans is? Joe Maneely!” Dick told me that he couldn’t believe that Joe said that about him and his work. But he did. Dick is a sweet guy and I’m glad I could pass that on to Dick. CBC: You know, the very first comic I can clearly remember reading was a Dick Ayers-drawn Western. It was a “Wyatt Earp” story that was probably adapted from the TV show, because Wyatt had that flat-brim hat and the long Buntline special gun that they used in the series. I was probably no more than four or five years old, but I still remember panels from that comic and those panels are clearly Dick Ayers art. Stan: Dick’s stuff was clean. You knew what you were seeing when you looked at a Dick Ayers page. I remember he was so thrilled when John Severin started inking his work on Sgt. Fury. They made a great team. The Severins, John and Marie, and I, were very, very close for many years. They were brother and sister, and both were so talented, but both so different from each other in their art styles. John died this past year. He was 90. One of the great artists, I think. And the great George Tuska — he passed away a few years ago, too. I met Jack Davis for the first time at Atlas. He was a tall, big, gangling guy — from

All characters TM & © Archie Publications, Inc.

Stan: That’s exactly the reason. I tried to tell Stan that when we started work on it and he knew it but decided to take the risk. He said “Try it. Try it.” The gray wasn’t the reason that book didn’t take off right away…what, it ran a couple of issues? CBC: It went for six issues in its first run. Kirby drew five of them with either Ayers or Ditko inking and then Ditko did the last issue solo. I’ve heard that Lee was having problems with the Comics Code on the book initially because those early issues are very dark and rather creepy. That initial run was much more gloomy in its approach and the Hulk was much scarier than he was in his Tales to Astonish run. I suspect the Code office had a problem with that fact that the Hulk appeared to be a blended version of both Frankenstein and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, both of whom, at the time, weren’t allowed in mainstream comics. Stan: That was really a bad time. I was looking at those examples in Alter Ego, where the guy, a cowboy, or a soldier or whatever, has the gun taken out of his hand, so that it looked like he was shooting his pointed finger at the bad guy. The gun or the knife would be taken out. But we survived it. Slowly things started to get more reasonable. You know, the old man at Archie Comics, John Goldwater, was a major player in the Comics Code, and Michael Silberkleit, who came after him, was also on the Code board. I don’t think that Archie Comics, at that time, was doing super-heroes. They did have the model, the one where they always had paper doll designs in the book… CBC: Katy Keene? Stan: A guy named Bill Woggon drew her. She was very popular. At one point the company was all set to bury Archie and make Katy Keene their lead character. She was that popular. But they decided to stay with Archie, which seems to have been the right decision. When I presented covers to Stan, I mounted them on cardboard with rubber cement because I thought it felt Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

better in your hands rather than just the paper, not as flimsy. In those days you got very little rendering, very little tonal effects. I could see the cover proofs, because those would come back but getting any good gradation was very difficult. Recently I wrote a little tribute for a book that’s coming out on Don Heck. I think his nephew is working with John Morrow to put that out. I always see his nephew at events. Don, I knew very well. I always thought he was one of the most underrated artists in the business. I loved his work very much. He was one of the best artists to draw a romance book. His faces and his strong blacks on the page were just spectacular. He just had a hard time with super-heroes, at least the way Marvel was doing them. John Romita told me once that Stan came to him and told him that Stan loved Don’s artwork, but he just couldn’t get him to work in the “Marvel way.” It was tough. Don and I were good friends. I colored John Romita’s first three-page story for Timely or Atlas. I made Photostats of that story and kept them for years. I finally wound up giving the stats to John, many years later. It was just spectacular work. The story took place in a flophouse. A little horror story. Jim Amash, who interviewed me a few years ago for Alter Ego, has made me famous for

Above: Color guide for Betty & Me #170 [Sept. 1988]. Left is a Dan DeCarlo pin-up and right is splash to a Stan G. penciled story. Below: Courtesy of Chris Ryall/IDW, Stan contributed this self-portrait for the Best of book.

Above: Caption

Top: Courtesy of Dr. Michael J. Vassallo, Pauline and Stan Goldberg during the 2013 New York Comic Con. Above: Not to be forgot, Stan G. also contributed mightily to DC in the ’70s/’80s. Inset right: Stan’s business card.

Next issue: We continue Richard J. Arndt’s detailed conversation with the late, great STAN GOLDBERG as the artist discusses his many years in comics, from Atlas to Archie.

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

coloring all those super-heroes. Three-quarters of the people in the industry never knew I did that before that interview. They all just thought I drew Archie. There was another fellow whose comic strips I followed when I was a young 12- or 13-year-old boy learning to love drawing comics. He later entered the comic book business, but I never actually met him when he was working in comics, even though we both worked for Marvel. That was Frank Robbins and he’s probably best known for drawing Johnny Hazard and Scorchy Smith. I loved his stuff. I met Frank down in Mexico years after he’d retired. I met him in this little town that we’ve been going to now for almost 20 years. Frank died the same year that Jack Kirby died, 1994. In fact, that’s how I learned that Jack had died. We were sitting in the little square of the village and Frank had this short-wave radio. He came running over to me and said “I’ve just heard on the shortwave that Jack Kirby’s died!” It struck me as odd that I’d known Jack so well and I find out about his death from Frank Robbins, high up in the mountains in this little colonial town in Mexico. Frank loved that place. He spent his last years there. I’ve told that story a few times before, but it’s a story that has always stuck in my mind: Frank and I became close when we were down there. He was about 77 at that time, when he passed away just before Thanksgiving, the same year as Jack. He lived in that village full-time, down there in Mexico. I wrote a little tribute to Frank that appeared in the local newspaper there. Frank was a great painter and he was doing that before he passed. Artists retire from jobs but they never retire from drawing. There’s not too many of us left anymore. Jerry Robinson died this past year. Joe Kubert. Irwin Hasen

is around, but he’s not well. There’s not too many left in their 80s or 90s — well, there’s still good ol’ Stan Lee. We congratulated each other a month or so ago. I congratulated him on his upcoming 90th birthday, and he congratulated me on my recent birthday. When I was given the lifetime achievement award from the National Cartoonists Society last year, Stan gave me a nice video tribute, which is on my website: www.stangoldberg.com. He was in New York recently. He had a previous commitment, a fairly big one, and somebody said “I guess that Stan won’t be able to attend the Comic-Con in New York.” I told him “Don’t count him out.” And sure enough, Stan was there. It was about three or four weeks later and there he was, signing autographs. I got ten seconds with him. Luckily he saw my wife and came over to say hi. We were very close for quite a while. We were close socially. He was my boss, my mentor and my friend. Not friends at the office ‘cause it was a working relationship but after-hours, all the time. My first 20 years in this business, I was the luckiest guy in the world ’cause I had Stan Lee there as my editor. I could negotiate with him sometimes about approaches to the work. Other times I realized that I couldn’t. So I went ahead and did it his way. Still, there were many times and many a project that he and I worked on that we tried to solve the problems or [fine-tune the] process together. He was the writer and I was the artist. Sometimes I came up with an idea. Sometimes we collaborated. Sometimes the idea was his idea. We challenged each other many times over on what would work better. When my idea was really strong and I could tell him why I felt this way, Stan would hem and haw about it but then he would say, “Okay, Goldberg, you won that one.” We had a lot of fun working together. When I worked for Stan, he would take Wednesdays off. The other four days of the week he worked in the office, checking the 50 titles that were coming in and going out because he was the only editor. But, on Wednesdays, he stayed home and would write something like 30 stories. I saw a picture of him at home and he had a table set out in the yard and he’d write his stories standing up at his typewriter. I guess he just felt better standing up. He’s another one of the Jack Kirby guys. They’re like miracle men. They just put the stuff out and it’s so good. Maybe he was way ahead of his time by standing up and doing his work. I used to take the occasional walk with him. We walk for an hour to downtown 42nd Street so he could get a newspaper, an out-of-town paper that might have a comic strip of his in it. Then we walked home. He took big steps — in fact, he still takes big steps when he walks — but me, three, four blocks from the office my legs would be killing me. He was fine though. He stayed skinny and maybe he’s reached 90 by doing all these things that he’s been doing. Stan’s still going but so many others from that time are gone. CBC: Well, Sam Glanzman’s still alive. Russ Heath, too. Stan: Now Sam I didn’t know. He’d have to be close to 90 too. He did war stories, right? CBC: Yes, he did a lot of war stories for DC, Dell, and Charlton. He drew Hercules for a few years too and monster comics like Kona. Drew some Tarzan, too. Stan: I remember the war work he did for DC — a good artist. This industry, I’ve seen it grow from when I was a little kid and reading ten cent books and then I go up to the Timely/Atlas bullpen and I’m sitting next to Carl Burgos! Two weeks earlier I was reading his Human Torch! Bill Everett’s Sub-Mariner, too! Bill once inked some of my Millie the Model’s later on. He had a lot of fun with that. Bill worked at Hallmark for a while until he came back into comics. He was a good man and a good artist. Nice guy.

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the gods of mount olympus

An Olympian Achievement Johnny Lee Achziger recalls the ambitious tabloid-sized mythological comics project by JOHNNY LEE ACHZIGER [YE ED’S NOTE: Back in the 1970s, I encountered a tabloidsized, black-&-white comic book exquisitely drawn by a young Joe Staton entitled The Gods of Mount Olympus. The series was short-lived but unforgettable, and it was subsequently reformatted for a regular-size appearance in Mike Friedrich’s Star*Reach anthology. Serendipitously, I came in contact with the original publisher and writer, Johnny Lee Achziger, who agreed to share the story behind this lovely production. Also featured is contributing editor (and Star*Reach Companion author) Richard J. Arndt’s interviews with Joe and John Workman about Gods.]

Above: Cover of the first Gods of Mount Olympus tabloid. Art by Joe Staton. Right: Promo art by Joe of Athena, the goddess of war. All Olympus art in this section courtesy of Johnny Lee Achziger.

I owned an old ’67 Ford station wagon and had just spent some $300 getting it ready for the trip (new tires, brakes, shocks… I had everything checked out… everything except #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Gods of Mount Olympus TM & © Johnny Lee Achziger. Art © Joe Staton.

I have been a comics fan since I learned to read in the mid-1950s. I published a few fanzines in the late ’60s/ early ’70s (The Collector’s Chronicle, Quintessence), and I later published a collection of World War II-era Phantom comic strips, the first and only in what was going to be an ongoing series of comic strip reprints, with Alley Oop and Al Williamson’s Secret Agent Corrigan in the works. But sales were so low, I had to cancel all those ambitious plans. I had always wanted to be a comics writer and had actually “auditioned” when DC had a sort of open-house solicitation for new writers sometime in the ’70s (they called it the Junior Woodchucks, I believe). But, unfortunately, I wasn’t motivated enough to actually sit down and write all the time as any real writer must do. So I decided I’d publish my own comic books. I toyed with the idea of publishing a weekly, tabloid-sized comic, similar in format to the great Menomonee Falls Gazette, but featuring all-new stories and art by top professionals. I even wrote to dozens of writers, including Ray Bradbury, Robert Silverberg, Jane Gaskell (who was very nice), and Robert A. Heinlein (who wasn’t), about adapting their works to comics. I also inquired about licensing some popular TV and movie rights, such as Kung Fu, Honey West, and James Bond 007. When I finally realized what all this would cost, I came to my senses and decided to go with something in the public domain. I had always enjoyed reading about ancient mythology and thought that would be a subject that would be of interest to many in fandom. So The Gods of Mount Olympus was chosen. Let me state up front that I was a very naive young man when it came to how things worked in the real world of publishing (or in the real world in general actually), so everything you read from hereon reflects that youthful stupidity (I never did anything maliciously, I just didn’t know what I was doing). My memory of exact dates and such may not be perfectly clear, but what follows is as best as I can recall. It was sometime in late 1973 when I started this endeavor,

which turned out to be cursed from the get-go. My first inclination was to ask the popular fan artist Don Newton to draw it, but I wanted to go with a “professional” artist (I don’t think Newton had turned pro yet), so I wrote to three of my favorite artists, offering them a guaranteed $25 per page up front with a possibility (based on sales) of as much as $75 per page. Two of my choices, Barry Smith and Russ Heath, never replied to my generous offer, but Joe Staton did respond, in January 1974. I didn’t know what was going on with him at Charlton at the time, but he replied that he would be interested in doing three issues of the series. I was thrilled to have Joe as my artist because I loved his art at Charlton, especially E-Man, and he had recently done some color covers for Fantastic Science Fiction and Fantasy Stories magazine, which got me hoping that I could get him to also do some color art. The first thing I commissioned, an illustration of Ares and Aphrodite, just blew me away! I thought it was the best art Joe had ever done and was certain the project would be a success! I used that art in a full-page ad in the Comic Buyer’s Guide; it looked typeset, but the lettering was actually done with those little stick-on letters that you’d rub on one at a time! I advertised the 16-page, tabloid-size comic at $1 per issue, three issues for $2.75, six issues for $5. Joe had only committed for three issues and wondered why I offered a six-issue subscription, but I figured if he bailed, I could continue the series with someone else. The response to the ad was not overwhelming. On the day I took the book to the printers, I only had about 100 orders (I think I got less than 200 orders total). But I went ahead anyway, thinking I could sell a bunch of copies to dealers like Bud Plant (well, actually just Bud Plant; there weren’t a lot of choices in those days). The art for the first story came in and I was thrilled! Joe did a fantastic job and I thought sure we’d make a fortune on this series once the word got around. I had 3,000 copies printed and started work on the next two issues. By now it was Spring ’74 and I thought it would be a great idea to take my product direct to the fans and attend some comic conventions. So I sent Joe the scripts for the next two issues and asked him to get them done as fast as possible so that I could take them to the summer cons. When the art for #2 and #3 arrived, I was somewhat disappointed because it looked very rushed (in fact, Joe stated he had done the third issue over a weekend). I don’t blame Joe at all because I had put the rush on him and he came through as best he could under the circumstances. The art wasn’t bad by any means, just nowhere near the standard he’d set with the first issue. So I printed up the second and third issues at the same time (another 3,000 of each) and picked what I thought would be the best conventions to debut my pride and joy. I had never been to a con yet, but I chose Houston Con as my first stop, intending to go on to New York after that. The following is a true story — several of the people named here are still alive and can testify to the truthfulness of this insane misadventure. Let me also mention that I never in my life did drugs. I was just very stupid at times.

The Gods of Mount Olympus TM & © Johnny Lee Achziger. Art © Joe Staton.

the radiator). I stuffed it full with 2,000 copies of each issue (remember, these were tabloid-size!) and together with my friend Don Kruger, we left Spokane, Washington, and set out for Texas. We drove all the way through Montana, over 700 miles, that first day (that state had no speed limit in those days) and turned south into Wyoming, stopping for the night in Sheridan. The next morning we continued south down the eastern side of Wyoming (did you know that eastern Wyoming is a virtual desert? Neither did I!). The temperature was over 100 degrees and I started to see the radiator gauge go up and up, then greenish liquid started trickling out through the edges of the hood. We were in the middle of the desert, with no towns even close. I pulled over and poured all the water we had into the radiator, then set out again. By the time we neared Cheyenne, Wyoming, steam was billowing from the engine. I took the first exit near Cheyenne and the car died on the exit ramp, but we had enough speed going to coast into the inevitable gas station nearby. The attendant there called a tow truck, which hauled us into town and dropped us off at a Ford dealership repair shop. Now, I knew little or nothing about cars, so when the mechanic told me that the radiator had a massive hole and by continuing driving while it was overheating probably warped the heads and blew the engine, I immediately wrote off the car as damaged beyond repair and started thinking of alternative means to get to Houston. I started calling car rental agencies, but because I didn’t have one of those new-fangled bank cards, none of the major agencies would rent to me (and none would accept cash!). Finally I got a local company to rent me a Volkswagen bug. I thought about renting a small trailer and pulling my 6000 copies of Gods to Houston behind the VW bug, but wisely thought the better of it. Finally, we decided to rent a U-Haul. Of course, the U-Haul dealer didn’t have any of the small vans, so we got a 20-foot Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

moving van to haul about a half-foot of comics. Did I mention that I didn’t have enough cash to rent the U-Haul? Nor did I have a bank card. So I went to a nearby bank and asked for a loan! When the nice bank man stopped laughing, he offered to call my bank back in Spokane so I could see if they could do anything to help me. My bank wouldn’t loan me any money, but checking my account, $800 was available. By coincidence, this was the exact amount of the check I had just mailed to Joe Staton for the artwork of #2 and 3… okay, it wasn’t a coincidence. Joe just hadn’t gotten the check yet. So my feeble-minded brain thought that if I had my bank wire me that money, I could make enough in Houston to put the money back, then I would give Joe the money in person in New York, and everything would be fine. But instead of just letting his check bounce, for some stupid reason I had them put a stop-payment on it. So my bank wired the money down to me in Wyoming and we rented the U-Haul. The next morning, I went back to the Ford repair shop and the mechanic told me he thought that if they patched up the radiator we would be good to go. But my brain was convinced that the car was

Above: Spectacular spread by Joe Staton from The Gods of Mount Olympus #1. Someone hurry up and reprint TGOMO at large-size… this masterwork deserves it! Below: Johnny Lee Achziger and his then-fiancée in the 1970s. They have been married for 36 years now!

Above: Two spot-on reviews by the same writer for the esteemed journal The Classical Outlook, for teachers of Latin, Greek, and the Classical Humanities. Below: Postcard of comment from none-other than Jim Steranko. Next page: Top is impressive Joe Staton art from The Gods of Mount Olympus #3. At lower right are the covers of Star*Reach #5-7, which feature reprints of the tabloid series.

a total loss and I didn’t want to chance breaking down again, so I just drove the car to a nearby parking lot, paid for a week’s space, and headed out in the U-Haul. To make up for time lost, we drove the remaining 1000 miles in 26 hours to get there in time. The U-Haul had a governor on the engine which wouldn’t allow it to go over 50 miles an hour. I drove most of the first day, then Don drove all night. About all I remember of the rest of the trip was going through Kansas at night, up and down hills, up and down hills, over and over. We reached Houston the night before the convention started. I parked the U-Haul in a lot across from the motel (and tore down a too-low overhead power line), checked in (the bell-boy was quite surprised that we had virtually no luggage — only 6,000 copies of a tabloid comic book). The next morning I set out to turn in the U-Haul. I didn’t think to look up an address, I just started driving down the nearest freeway thinking there’d be a U-Haul dealer somewhere along the way. Finally, I found one about 10 miles down the road, turned in the truck, then took a taxi back to the hotel. Then we set up our table, anticipating quite a rush when people actually saw my book. I was greatly disappointed that Bud Plant wasn’t there — who was I going to sell all my excess copies to? But I met some people there who would play interesting roles in my life in the near future. Jim Lightfoot from Seattle was there; Jim was wanting to open his own comic shop in Seattle and was looking to expand in the future over in Spokane. Two years later, with Jim as my partner (he had the money, I lived in Spokane) we opened Inland Empire Comics in Spokane, which I ran for 3½ years. I also met [just-retired DC Vice-President] Bob Wayne there. The next year I returned to Houston Con, stayed with Bob, then went on an ill-fated trip to New York with him (but that’s another story). Also there was Chuck Rozanski, now a multi-millionaire comic dealer from Colorado. He was still in the early stages of his empire-building at that time. Chuck asked if he could sleep on the floor in our room for five dollars a night so we let him (which is probably why he’s a millionaire today — very frugal with money). I think it was the second day of the convention when he had been downtown and got mugged (the mugger said, “Give me your money,”

Chuck said, “You’ll have to kill me”). Chuck had been sliced across his back by a knife and was still bleeding when he found me in the movie room. I wanted to finish the movie, but since he was bleeding all over the floor, I finally took him up to the room and cleaned his wounds as best I could. I’d like him to think I saved his life, but actually the wounds were pretty superficial. More on Chuck in a moment. The convention opened, I proudly displayed my three issues of Gods and waited for the money to pour in. And waited. And waited. I think I sold about 15 sets all weekend. To say I was disappointed was insanely understating the fact. Fortunately, I had brought enough comics to sell to earn enough money for a bus ticket home (poor Don had to pay for his own ticket back). I asked the bus company about hauling my Gods back, but there was no way that would happen. So I decided to just leave them in the hotel room and let the hotel dispose of them. When Chuck heard about that, he asked if he could have them. I said, “Sure, for $20,” and that’s how Chuck Rozanski ended up with two-thirds of the print run of Gods. Last I heard, he still has hundreds of them in his warehouse at Mile High Comics, so maybe they’re still available to anyone who is interested. With my head hung low, Don and I boarded the bus back to Spokane. I got off in Cheyenne to see about my car. I took it back to the Ford dealership, found the mechanic I had spoken to the week before and just gave him the car. (Three months later, I got a letter from the Sheriff of that county, saying they were going to auction off the car to satisfy a repair bill, though I didn’t authorize any repairs and really didn’t much care by then what happened to the car.) Then I got back on the bus for home. I arrived home in the middle of the night with 25¢ in my pocket and had to walk home from the bus depot. So, after this eventful trip, I had no car, but still owed $400 on it, I still owed Joe $800, and I still owed the printer $400, and I had virtually given away 6,000 copies of my books. What was I going to tell Joe Staton? Like a coward, I didn’t tell him anything. Pretty soon a letter from Joe arrives, stating that he was very unhappy about the stopped check (who wouldn’t be?) and that our project was at an end. I totally understood and wrote a letter back to him detailing all that had happened on my misadventure and promised to pay him as soon as possible (which I did). Surprisingly, Joe called me and said he wasn’t mad at me. When I asked if he wanted to continue the series, I was even more surprised when he agreed! My original plan was to do a fourth issue of 48 pages in color! After checking the printing costs, I backed off and decided to go with black-&-white, with just a color cover. The book was to consist of three stories: “The Giants’ Revolt,” an all-battle story featuring Hercules and all of the gods; “Aphrodite,” about her affair with Ares; and “Athena,” about the warrior goddess. Joe wanted to do the breakdowns himself from my plot outlines, and he wanted to do the art in wash tones. To help pay for the book, and since everyone was doing portfolios at the time, I thought we could do a portfolio based on the Labors of Hercules. But Joe was getting more work from jobs that paid real money, so we cut back on the plans. Now the comic was to be only 32 pages, still with that color cover, to finish off the subscriptions. I sent him the fourth script, “Aphrodite,” intending that to fill half the issue, and generously offered to allow him to write his favorite story (“Cupid and Psyche,” I think it was) to fill the book. Joe had sent me wash drawings of Aphrodite and Athena and a drawing of Hercules so I could advertise those items. I was again highly disappointed when I only got a few more orders for the comic and only about 20 orders for the portfolio. But I was determined to go ahead with the projects. Why? I really wanted to be a comic book writer. I thought these self-published comics would get me established as a writer and then I could apply at DC or Marvel and they could see for themselves my “talent.” It was also a matter of ego-boo #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Gods of Mount Olympus TM & © Johnny Lee Achziger. Art © Joe Staton. Star*Reach TM & © Mike Friedrich. Cover art © the respective artists.

(that was a fan term used back then, short for ego-boosting); it was always a thrill for me to see my stories in illustrated form. But it all came to an end in early 1975 when Joe returned the script for #4 and said he wasn’t able to do anything else for me. I was disappointed, to say the least, but who could blame Joe? He’d gone far beyond what anyone could have expected of him — low pay, bad check — who’d want to work for me under those circumstances anyway? As a way of thanking him, I hand-colored all the pages of the issues, glued them to heavier paper (note to self: next time, glue first, then color), then had them bound into a hardcover book and sent it to him. As we all know, Joe went on to bigger and better things (in fact, it was while we were working on Gods that Roy Thomas wrote to Joe and invited him to work at Marvel). Some time later, Charlton published a fanzine called Charlton Bullseye and I thought maybe I could get Gods published in there. I wrote to Nick Cuti, the editor, and said that if he could work out something with Joe, I’d be pleased to let him publish Gods without charge. He wrote back and said that he had at first thought it was a great idea, but then he had talked to Joe and found out I had only bought first printing rights (news to me, but then I wasn’t up on printing rights and all that), and then Mr. Cuti lectured me about trying to sell something that I didn’t have the right to sell. I wrote back and repeated that I wasn’t trying to “sell” anything, that I had only offered to let him print the series if he could work out something with Joe. I got back a one-sentence letter stating that they couldn’t use the Gods material. Oh well. I had given up any thought of continuing the series when Mike Friedrich decided to publish Gods. He had come up to Spokane for our very own Expo ’74 World’s Fair, in late summer. After writing to me, I invited him to stay at my parents’ house (yes, I was the stereotypical comics nerd who lived in his parents’ basement). While he was here, I showed him the three issues of Gods and asked if he’d be interested in printing them in his new “ground-level” comic, Star*Reach. He thought it was a good idea and took copies of the three issues to print from. [Side note: In his interview in Comic Book Artist V2 #2, Mike states that Joe completely re-drew all three issues for him to print from. I don’t remember talking to Joe about this, and I no longer have the comics to compare, but I’m certain that if you did compare the original printed versions to the Star*Reach versions, you’ll find that only the third story was re-drawn (and I seem to remember hearing that Joe had merely cut and pasted the pages to reduce the count from 15 story pages to eight or nine, only touching up the art in places, but that could just be my old mind playing tricks on me). I’m pretty sure the first two stories were printed directly from the copies that Mike got from me (with the second story dropping only the original cover — you’ll also note that two pages were printed out of order in the original and that this error was repeated in Star*Reach). You could just ask Joe about this. Also in #1, I had used the Roman names for the gods, then decided in #2 to start using the Greek names. I sent Mike a list of the names that needed to be changed when he reprinted #1, and I believe he missed a couple.] Anyway, after the existing three stories had been printed, I asked Mike if he’d like to use the fourth story I had written. He agreed, but apparently Joe wasn’t able to do the story. So Mike and I discussed who we could get to draw it. I suggested my original choice, Don Newton, but amazingly Mike said he’d never even heard of Newton! So we picked John Workman, based on a story he had drawn in an earlier issue of Star*Reach. I never spoke to Workman, so I had no input whatsoever in how the story turned out. I only recall that it had been reduced in page count. And I hated the art. No offense to Workman, but the gods looked nothing like they had in Staton’s issues. I don’t remember if Mike and I ever discussed continuing the series, but that was the final story ever done. Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

Mike was very good to me and to Joe. He had a page rate where the writer got 25% and the artist got 75% of the sales (after Mike’s commission, the amount of which I don’t recall). I remember getting checks from sales of Star*Reach for several years after they were originally published, as Mike sold back issues, then wholesaled his remaining stock. We also got checks from sales to overseas publishers (I seem to recall being published in Yugoslavia — or was it Hungary? — and Finland, maybe one or two other places. We never got rich off the comic, but the checks helped in times of need. And that’s pretty much the end of the story. As for me, I wrote a book in the mid ’70s called “The Green Princess.” It was an Edgar Rice Burroughs-type fantasy. I sent it in to two or three publishers, but never got any bites. So I intended to publish it myself and started commissioning some of my favorite comic book artists to draw illustrations for it. I got some terrific art from artists including Curt Swan, Frank Brunner, Alex Toth, Paul Gulacy, Val Mayerik, some detailed convention drawings from Neal Adams, Wendy Pini, and Barry Smith, and a painting from Boris Vallejo, which I published as a poster. But then I met a girl, got married, and my life totally changed. I had to get a real job and had no time for stuff like writing or publishing. Then we had a streak of bad luck, which really peaked when I had heart surgery a few years ago. I had to sell everything I ever owned and now have nothing left from the old days. Then, in 2001, another disaster struck when I was nearly killed in a car wreck (an old man ran a red light). I was in the hospital on Sept. 11, when I woke up early in the morning to sounds of sirens on the nearby freeway. Then a nurse ran in my room telling me that we were under attack! I couldn’t understand why anyone would attack a hospital, but I was pretty nervous until I found out what was going on! That day I was released, on crutches, and went home. About midnight, some drug-crazed kid tried to break into our house with a steak knife (and it only took three calls to 911 to get a cop to come check it out!). If anyone would be interested in publishing Gods in graphic novel format, I’m sure something could be worked out! I haven’t talked to Joe about it, but I would imagine he’d be willing to see it printed again (and he has all the originals). Final note: A few months before my accident, I wrote to Joe to apologize for any grief I had caused him all those years ago. Not only did he graciously forgive me, but he sent my daughter an original Scooby-Doo page that is neatly framed on her wall! Thanks again, Joe. You were — and still are — a very classy guy! 29

the gods of mount olympus

Joe Staton, Myth-Maker The artist’s work gets big as he depicts the tales of ancient Greece in a comic tabloid

Joe: I think you’re right. I think Johnny was adapting things pretty much straight off the original myths, trying to visualize them as they were told. Richard: These were originally published as a tabloid, as a large newspaper, is that right? Joe: Right. They were tabloid-size, A3-sized. They were big. I remember we ran into problems with people not being able to stock them in stores because there were no shelves that would fit them. They were big pages, so you had good size for reproducing the art and you could see what was going on in the details. Richard: So they didn’t sell well? Joe: As best I recall. Johnny probably remembers the details on that better than I do. Richard: I believe he told me that he became frustrated at a comics book convention and that he sold — I believe to the fellow who runs Mile High Comics now — that he sold the entire run to him for 20 bucks. Joe: [Laughs] That’s right. I remember that story! It was a shame. He put a lot of work into those and we had high hopes for them. I think we were before our time. There was really no way to advertise or distribute anything that wasn’t mainstream size or content. Richard: And the truth is, there really still isn’t. Joe: True, to some extent. But today we could be online, be on Kickstarter, or something along those lines. Those things didn’t exist in 1973. #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Above: The second and third issue covers of The Gods of Mount Olympus, by Joe Staton. Below: Joe and Hilarie Staton. Photo by Kendall Whitehouse.

Richard J. Arndt: How did Johnny Achziger contact you about The Gods of Mount Olympus, and why did you, since you were already a professional artist, agree to work on a self-funded project with an unknown writer? Joe Staton: It’s all been a while, but the way things happened, the best I can remember, is that I was working at Charlton. This was a period in which there was a paper shortage. The comic I was doing, E-Man, was cancelled between issues #2 and #3. There was a six-month or longer gap between issues. There was a memo we all received from George Wildman, the editor at Charlton, that said “This is a black day. We have nothing left to print on.” So they were shutting down for an extended period and I think right at the same time (or just previous) I’d gotten a letter out of the blue from Johnny detailing the project he had in mind about The Gods of Mount Olympus and asking if I’d be interested in coming in on it. It was just good timing for me. It was the kind of thing that I’m interested in, so I thought it would be fun, and I was just at loose ends. So it was just a good time for me to get in on it. Richard: One of the things I noticed (and I hope I’m not insulting you at all) was that up to that point I’d considered you a very promising artist… Joe: [Laughs] And, after that, no more? [laughter] Richard: No, no! I thought that Gods of Mount Olympus was your best work up to that point. Easily your best work. It’s just beautiful. Joe: Thank you. I appreciate that. Richard: And it still stands up today. Although obviously, you’ve become a better artist today than you were 40 years ago. Joe: You know, sometimes people ask me why I’m not as good as I used to be in the 1970s, but you know… I think my work on Gods of Mount Olympus was good work. Richard: I think your art and the scripts themselves were outstanding and, to be honest, it was the first time, in comics anyway, that I’d seen anyone do a complete, no-effort-attoning-it-down, version of the Greek legends.

The Gods of Mount Olympus TM & © Johnny Lee Achziger. Artwork © Joe Staton.

Richard: And today you could print it as large as some of the Artist Editions that IDW has been putting out. Joe: That’s true! Maybe there’s never quite the right time for something like Gods of Mount Olympus. It always felt to me that we were a little bit ahead of the time where this sort of thing would work. It could probably have been handled a bit better now but it seemed like a good idea at the time. Richard: It did get reprinted fairly soon. Joe: Yeah, with Star*Reach. Richard: How much work did you have to do to the pages to change from the tabloid-size to the regular comicbook-size? Was there a lot of reworking? It looks like it fits perfectly. Joe: It seems like the proportions were pretty much the same. I think it was just a matter of shooting it down. I don’t remember any reworking on it myself. If there was retouching, Johnny might have done it. Richard: You didn’t draw the last published story — the fourth chapter of Gods. Why was that? Joe: No, that was John Workman who drew that. As for me, Charlton got paper. Simple as that. I was back doing E-Man. I did try to keep up with producing Gods with Johnny but, basically, I was just stretched way too thin, so I kept with the Charlton stuff. It was also in or around that time that I started getting Marvel work, too. That was it — Charlton, Marvel, and Gods were all just too much and I had to let go of Gods. Richard: It would have been around that time that you started working on the Incredible Hulk, if I remember right. Joe: Right, I inked the Hulk for a year or two, over Herb Trimpe’s and then Sal Buscema’s pencils. I had too many things going on at once. I was also assisting Gil Kane at Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

around that time, too. I was young and I thought I could do everything all at once, and I just found out that I couldn’t. The Gods was kind of an indulgence. Something that I really wanted to do and enjoyed doing but in terms of long-term prospects, that was the one that had to go. Richard: When I was emailing Johnny Achziger about this, he mentioned that he’d written or had planned two additional stories to complete the series for a total of six chapters. If the opportunity came up, would you be interested in finishing the saga? Joe: You know, I would. I would love to do them. I think, in a way, I owe Johnny a little follow-up. So, sure. It would close the loop, as it were. If he’s got the scripts written than before I close up shop, I’d be willing to do that. Richard: I’ll pass the word along, in case there’s a possibility of that happening. You never know until you ask. Joe: No, you never know. If this article goes well, there might be some interest in that. Richard: You could always Kickstart something going. Joe: [Laughs] You never know! You know, at one point Johnny bound the tabloid magazines together into one big volume and that was nice. It’s unlikely you’ll be seeing them again, but I have one and it looks good. I hope everyone realizes that Johnny and I were both young and had big ideas. We tried something and I hope it still stands up.

Above: Pandora changes everything in this superb two-page sequence drawn by Joe Staton. Words by Johnny Lee Achziger. From The Gods of Mount Olympus #2. Below: Joe drew this caricature of his lonesome back in the 1970s, around the same period he was collaborating with Johnny Achziger.

the gods of mount olympus

Workman’s Mighty Aphrodite The cartoonist/letterer/all-around production guy remembers his ill-fated love goddess

Above: John Workman’s contribution to the Gods of Mount Olympus series was “Aphrodite,” which appeared in Star*Reach #8 [Apr. ’77] behind this P. Craig Russell cover. Below: Kendall Whitehouse pic of John Workman from 2014.

writer was Dave Stevens. So I owe a lot to Mike Friedrich and Dave Stevens. It was neat meeting Dave when he was so young. I still have the convention booklet wherein he did the Spirit drawing. It was wonderful stuff. Richard: I guess I should mention in regards to Gods of Mount Olympus, that the writer, Johnny Achziger, didn’t like your art effort on that fourth tale of the series. John: Yeah, he didn’t tell me that at the time, but in looking over the printed story, I can understand why. I made considerable changes to his script, starting with page two. I thought it would be good to have a nearly full-page splash there, zooming in on Aphrodite, with all the other Greek Gods’ faces floating around her. He’d written the page to have six extra panels there, with the various Gods commenting on her. I figured that all those guys were popping up later in the story anyway, so I handled it by putting the dialogue in a column and having her giving them this look although you don’t see them. The biggest change I made, however, was that his script was for a ten-page story and I changed it to nine. It was for somewhat selfish reasons. I had read the U.S.A. Trilogy by John Dos Passos, as well as his novel Midcentury. He’d done this bit in that book where he used headlines from newspapers and things from radio shows and movie newsreels in order to give a flavor or feeling for what was going on at the time in the real world outside the lives of the fictional characters that he was using. I wondered if it was possible to do something like that in comics, using pieces of written material to tell a story. I’d always loved this opening page of a “Nick Fury” story by Jim Steranko that showed, I think, a desk or tabletop that had a cup of coffee, Fury’s gun and an open newspaper lying on the table. The newspaper was open to some sort of headline that pulled you into the story. There wasn’t a single human figure on the page. Just those elements. So I thought “I wonder if I can do a story where the page represents somebody’s desk and you’re looking at these things on the desk — a typewritten report, notes, newspaper clippings, photographs, and such — that, when combined in logical order, tell a story. Along with my wife, Cathy, I came up with the one-page story called “Crazy Lady!?” I was really happy with that little story, but I wasn’t entirely happy with the Aphrodite story. I thought the writing could be tightened up, so I did that… made changes that, in retrospect, I’m sure didn’t make Johnny or Mike very happy. That may have been the reason, or probably was the reason, that those two stories were the last ones that I did for Star*Reach. I thought the changes I made to “Aphrodite” helped it. I may have been wrong there. It’s interesting to see how something that someone has written as the initial step in an ongoing process compares to the finished version. I remember that Ring Lardner, Jr. won an Academy Award for his script for the movie M*A*S*H, but his script for the film was pretty much tossed out the window in favor of what was in the finished movie. I loved that movie! I’ve never read his script for it, and don’t know if I would like it more or like it less than the final film, but what came out on the screen was just wonderful. On the other hand, Robert Altman—who directed M*A*S*H — also directed Popeye. The script for Popeye was brilliant. Jules Feiffer did it and it was as if Segar had come back, sat by his side, and helped him write it. It was so good. When Robert Altman had finished with the Popeye film, he’d destroyed that script and all that the #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Richard Arndt: We’re welcoming John Workman to this discussion of the ‘Gods of Mount Olympus’. Thanks for agreeing to this, John. Can you tell how you first got started working for the Star*Reach comic? John Workman: Starting in 1972 or thereabouts, when I was still living in Aberdeen, Washington, I was writing and drawing two four-page, black & white comics stories each month for a Los Angeles-based publisher named Ed Goldstein, who’d previously worked for Archie Comics. Ed had bought and was publishing a few men’s magazines (one of them was Debonair) that had started in the 1950s as Playboy imitators and had passed through the hands of several publishers. He also put out magazines about the Marx Brothers and other entertainment subjects. He had a good editor in Chuck Fritch, a science fiction writer who’d acquired the second publication rights to stories by Harlan Ellison and Robert Bloch. The two features I was writing and drawing — the SF tale of “Sindy” and the humorous adventures of “Fallen Angels” — I considered to be just above junk in the scheme of things, but working on them was a way for me to learn about creating comics material and to make a bit of money. Bob Smith, who lived near me, helped me out on “Fallen Angels,” and we would go to comics conventions in Seattle, which was about 90 miles north of us. At one convention, this one in Portland, Oregon, Bob and I had a long conversation with a fellow who was several years younger, but could draw like the dickens. He was wearing a white Ray Bradbury-ish suit and was all of 17 years old. His name was Dave Stevens. Both Dave and I had artwork in the convention booklet, but Dave’s work — a two-page piece involving Will Eisner’s Spirit — was amazing in its composition and in its professionalism. Dave told us about this new ground-level magazine called Star*Reach that was being published by Mike Friedrich and told me that I should definitely submit something to it. So I came up with a story as I was driving back home to Aberdeen and I then wrote a full script and penciled, lettered, and inked the first page. I sent a copy of the script and a Photostat of the first page to Mike. He liked it, and that ended up being “Key Club,” which appeared in the second issue. Years later, I was told that the reason my story was accepted was that another artist/writer hadn’t gotten his story in on time. That artist/

“Aphrodite” © Johnny Lee Achziger and John Workman.

movie could have been. If the movie-makers had followed the script, the movie would have been wonderful. What they wound up with was quite a mess. Maybe that sort of thing depends on how a person looks at it, but I can understand how Johnny and Mike weren’t necessarily happy with what I’d done. There are also a few things about the artwork. I only had a limited time to do research on costuming and such because by day I was working on staff at DC and, at night, I was doing freelance work. As I read the “Gods” script, parts of it reminded me of earlier 1960’s Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane stories, so I decided to “super-hero-up” the scenes. At the top of page four, there’s this little guy having an argument with Ares, and he runs off in the foreground of that panel. Well, no Greek costuming of that time period looks like what he is wearing. He’s wearing a super-hero boot and all that. I thought it worked, though, within the context of the story. I was also really amazed by what John Buscema and Alfredo Alcala had done with Conan in Savage Sword of Conan. The combination of those two guys was just unbelievable… And, the thing was, neither one of those guys could have done anything like that on their own. The artwork on “Aphrodite” is my attempt to do a Buscema/Alcala look and failing miserably. I thought that approach went with the subject matter though. I wasn’t about to try to duplicate Joe Staton. That would be like me trying to be Jack Kirby. At various times, I’ve tried to be Kurt Schaffenberger or Alex Toth or Bernie Wrightson or Carl Barks, usually with limited success. Here, I was really trying to get that Buscema/Alcala look. I missed it by a mile, but at least I was somewhere in the ballpark. Richard: I actually quite like the artwork. It’s not Joe Staton’s version, but… so what! It’s John Workman’s. I think you’re probably the best artist they could have picked to do an ‘“Aphrodite” story, because you can certainly draw lovely ladies. I particularly liked the woodcut effect that appears from time to time. John: [Chuckles] I’ve always tried, with everything I’ve drawn, to have some sort of link to reality with it. With a lot of “Aphrodite,” I just drew it right out of my head, but the Aphrodite figure was based on my wife. I got her to stand around and pose with a sheet while I did rough pencil drawings that I then transferred to the final art board. All of the female figures were based on her posing for me. The ones at the bottom of page one were the result of my sitting on the floor and looking up at her as I drew. Aphrodite floating there in the next to the last panel was also my wife lying down, and I just turned the drawing upside down. With the male figures, there’s a lot of me drawing right out of my head, and it shows. I’ve always done some really lousy figures that way. CBC: I like the composition of the page myself, but I’m not the artist or an artist of any kind. John: I stole the panel arrangements from Gray Morrow. He was doing pages at the time where panels would overlap each other and I think that helped here, rather than my doing the traditional independent and individual panels. Having the panels overlapping made each page cohesive and brought the whole thing together. I was 26 years old at the time and didn’t know which way was up. I was trying to find a style and borrowing from anybody’s work that I saw merit in. I did think that the artwork had a level of sophistication to the storytelling that shows a progression that was dependent on the reader supplying what went on in-between the panels. I was kind of happy with that. Still, I can see why Mike and Johnny may have been upset with me. They were probably pretty miffed with me for making the changes that I did and shortening it by a page. Although Mike, in his introduction to the issue, does say some nice things about the “Crazy Lady!?” story and noted that Cathy and I had married. Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

To be honest, I don’t like drawing things that I haven’t written. If I’m going to go down in flames, I’d rather be the whole reason for it. Every time I’ve worked on stuff written by other people it’s kind of bothered me. I’ve always made changes in it. The more I think about it, the more I’m kind of sad about the “Gods of Mount Olympus” story. Maybe I went too far. On the other hand, I can’t help but think about how the real Sandra Ramiskey (from the “Crazy Lady!?” story; all the people mentioned in the story were real) went to her grave proud of the fact that she’d been a character in a comic book story. That wouldn’t have happened if I’d done things as they were intended. Richard: Any final thoughts? John: There are people that I run into at conventions who tell me how much they enjoyed my Star*Reach stuff. It’s still hard for me to believe that I shared space with those amazing artists in those issues. I guess I didn’t exactly walk with giants, but I did manage to stumble in a forward direction with a lot of people for whom I have a great affection.

Top: Opening splash page of John Workman’s “Aphrodite.” Above: Alternative comics pioneer (as well as comics scribe and artist rep), Mike Friedrich, Star*Reach publisher, in 1982. Photo by Alan Light. 33

comics in the library

Tintin and the Library Mystery Hergé’s classic comics albums usually lay dormant on shelves, but this year… yow! by RicHard J. Arndt CBC Contributing Editor

Above: Georges Prosper Remi, otherwise known as the cartoonist Hergé, creator of the still-breathtaking Tintin albums. Inset right: The 17th Adventures of Tintin album is Explorers on the Moon, originally serialized between 1950–53. Below: The boy adventurer and his beloved dog, Snowflake. It’s hard to overestimate Hergé’s influence on comics, particularly because due to his pioneering of the so-called clear line (in French, “ligne claire”) style.

Next: Rick Geary and the Art of Murder!

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Adventures of Tintin TM & © the respective copyright holders.

Last issue we talked about the enormous popularity of Jeff Smith’s Bone series in a middle school library. Bone has consistently been the number one series in my library since we started the graphic novel section well over a decade ago. The number two position, however, shifts on a regular basis. This year, to my utter delight, and complete bafflement, the second post belongs to Herge’s Tintin series. Originally published in Belgium between 1931 and ’76, the series has been delighting readers for more than 80 years. The 21 adventures appearing in the American set published by Little, Brown are available in seven volumes, each featuring three of the original graphic albums. The American series is minus the first two original volumes, Tintin in the Land of the Soviets, which was unpublished until 1973, although it is the first one actually drawn, the racially problematic second original volume, Tintin in the Congo, and the never completed Tintin and Alph-Art. The numbered American version starts with the actual third volume, Tintin in America. The delight I mentioned comes from my own experience. In the ’60s, I discovered Tintin and the Captain at school, in the pages of Children’s Digest, a monthly magazine aimed at children and to which my classroom teacher, Mrs. Landon, subscribed. The titles I distinctly remember reading were Tintin and Red Rackham’s Treasure, Tintin and the Secret of the Unicorn, and at least one of the two moon books — Destination Moon or Explorers on the Moon. I loved the adventures, which reminded me a bit of my favorite cartoon show, Jonny Quest. Tintin looked a little goofy, but he was smart and tough as nails, getting out of trouble with the use of his

excellent brain, yet not afraid to mix it up with the bad guys if the occasion called for it. The Captain looked like the sort of fellow it would be good to have backing you up. The bafflement comes from having had these books in the library for years and they have rarely moved in large numbers. Some years, one student will find them and read the entire series. Other years, a number of students will find them and read a volume or two, but never the whole set. I had high hopes when the movie came out in 2011, but readership of the series didn’t jump at all. The film’s advent on DVD didn’t change things. Yet this year, for reasons I really can’t fathom, the entire series has been jumping off the shelf. At least seven or eight students have read the entire series by January of this year. A least a dozen more are in the process of doing so. That’s a jump of well over 1000% from last year. To get a grasp of that increase, Tintin is currently moving better than either the Twilight series or Harry Potter combined! My own inability to move the books in years past has always saddened me. Neither prominent display nor voiced recommendations helped. I was starting to suspect that the relatively small size of Little, Brown’s editions — only 9" x 6½" in size — made the artwork too small for Herge’s excellent sense of pacing and style to really shine. The huge size of the word balloons and the sheer amount of dialogue in the panels may also have been scaring off casual readers who were just glancing through the books. Many of the pages have 12 panels per page and that, at the smaller page size, can be intimidating to young readers. But apparently none of that applies to this year’s bunch of kids. Each kid who finishes a volume is only too eager to go to the next book. Frankly, that’s kind of great. Word of mouth by student is always better than a recommendation from a librarian or teacher. It’s really been a pleasure to check the books out and see kids eager to read the next volume and complaining when someone doesn’t finish the one they’re looking for quickly enough. Sometimes all it takes to brighten up a day is to have a reader come up to you and start telling you the plot of the great Tintin story they just finished. Every once in a while, towards the end of the school year, a teacher or librarian can start looking at this year’s bunch of kids as the future destroyers of America. But, frankly, any bunch of kids who like Tintin as much as these do certainly brightens up the future!

THE ENERGIZING ART OF

During a period when the “good” comic art was heavily rendered and often overly realistic, the arrival of artist Joe Thomas Staton to the comics scene in the early ’70s, boasting an effervescent, energetic cartooning style, was a delight. Starting at the bottom rung of the professional ladder, Joe began at Charlton Comics, very soon teaming-up with enthusiastic writer (and artist) Nicola Cuti at the Derby, Conn. imprint. Together they created E-Man, perhaps the character they will always be best remembered for, though each would go on to have stellar careers as comics pros. This interview was conducted at the Staton abode in Kingston, N.Y., in mid-March, where we were joined by Joe’s lovely wife, Hilarie. The transcript was copyedited by the pair.

he in the Air Corps immediately before that? Joe: Right. In World War II. He and my Uncle Dave Staton were briefly together in Italy. They would get together on bombing runs… They weren’t bombers, but they were being bombed! So there’s a family history of war stuff. CBC: By the Italian Air Force or the Luftwaffe? Joe: The Luftwaffe. I’m pretty sure. I think. CBC: Wow! He wasn’t involved in any of the invasion force? Joe: No, but he was involved in helping evacuate Naples when Vesuvius erupted. CBC: What year was that? Joe: ’46? ’45? I need to look up these things. [laughs] Hilarie Staton: I’m the reference person. [Looking online] The last serious eruption was in ’44. Joe: Because the U.S. Army was there handy, they had all these trucks to get people out of town. There were all these ashes coming down… CBC: Yeah, right, and we know what happened there before. Joe: Right. We saw that movie. CBC: Did he share any specific stories about the war? Joe: Not really. Occasionally, but mostly funny stories, stuff like that. Getting lost in Libya in a jeep and trying to get out. That sort of thing. Daddy died when I was young, so I heard a lot of stories from my Uncle Dave. CBC: Do you have brothers and sisters? Joe: I have one sister, Janice. Jan may get me for this: When she was born, my parents wrote back to my Staton grandfather and told him her name. He didn’t recognize the name so he figured it out phonetically. He always called her John-ah-see. [laughter] She’s not quite two years younger than me. She was a paralegal for a long time, and actually, before that, she was an agent for the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, which we always thought of as the FBI [laughs] CBC: A cop? Joe: She was an investigator. She did have to carry a gun and she got tired of that. She was actually involved in wearing wires and that sort of thing. #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Comic Book Creator: Where are you originally from, Joe? Joe Staton: I was born in Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and I mostly grew up in West Tennessee — Milan, Tennessee. I am a Southern boy. My dad was in the Air Force. That’s why we happened to be in Fort Bragg. We were actually at Fort Pope, which was the Air Force… Pope Field. So I am briefly from North Carolina. CBC: Were there any creative people in your family? Joe: I had an uncle who was an artist. My grandfather had things that he had drawn. He didn’t follow it up, but you could just see that he had done it, illustration-type stuff. Just enough to know that he was interested. So… CBC: What is your mother’s maiden name? Joe: Butler. CBC: Staton is an English name? Joe: It’s English. From what I’m told, it’s a Saxon name. With me it’s a long “a.” Stay-tuhn. CBC: I guess many must say Stah-tuhn. Joe: Yeah. One of my early credits at DC was very often Stanton. [laughs] And I’ll be plugged at conventions very often as “Stanton,” with that extra “n.” CBC: What’s your middle name? Joe: Thomas. CBC: Joseph Thomas Staton. Joe: Not Joseph. It is Joe. CBC: So the Air Force was very new then? Was

From E-Man to the Gods of Olympus to The Huntress to Green Lantern, a dog named Scooby, and Dick Tracy, this guy named Joe has done it all!

Conducted by Jon B. Cooke • Transcribed by Steven Thompson • Portrait by Kendall Whitehouse Hilarie: She worked with insurance investigations. Joe: Right. And being in Florida, there’s a lot of insurance fraud. CBC: How come? Joe: Boats. Lots of boats. You can do things with boats and then collect on them. Sink them and burn them. CBC: Are you close with her? Joe: Reasonably, yes. CBC: Were you close growing up? That’s only two years, right? Joe: Well, I was terrible to her, but I would say we were reasonably close. CBC: Are your earliest memories in Tennessee? How long were you in North Carolina? Joe: I was born there and then we moved around to different parts, mostly in Tennessee. CBC: Were you always moving? Joe: We moved several times. Yeah. CBC: How was that? Joe: I… guess it was… okay! [laughs] Yeah. CBC: What are your earliest memories of growing up? Joe: The comics. My earliest memories are always what comics was I reading at the time. [laughs] I’d be reading Gene Autry, and that’s what happened that year. Now I’m reading Superboy, and that’s what happened that year. I was learning to read. That sort of thing. CBC: So, Gene Autry was the first comic that you remember? Were you immediately drawn to it? Joe: Well, I just remembering reading Gene Autry and Roy Rogers. All that stuff! There was a lot of that. Of course, the earliest things I remember are Chester Gould’s Dick Tracy. CBC: Comic strips? Joe: As long as there were newspapers and strips, I was drawn to the strips, drawn to Chester Gould. It was strange. Before I could read, there was that strange drawing. I was always following that. CBC: What were your impressions? Was it the weird villains? Was it the earnestness of the protagonist? Was it… ? Joe: It must have been just the weird black-&-white drawing. CBC: Pruneface? Joe: Pruneface, Flattop, and all that.

CBC: That’s some weird characters! Joe: Yes. That’s right. Bonnie Braids… all that stuff. CBC: Do you remember the newspapers that came into the house? Joe: Oh, golly. It was later. When I was little I had no idea what papers there were. Back in West Tennessee, there were always the Memphis Press, the Commercial Appeal, and Memphis Press-Scimitar. I think it was the Commercial Appeal that had Dick Tracy. Jackson, Tennessee, had the Jackson Sun. I still follow the Jackson Sun online although they don’t carry Tracy anymore. That’s the weird thing. Mike

Previous page: Upper left are, of course, some of Joe Staton’s best-known characters, including E-Man and the Green Lantern Corps. Photo of Joe at the 2012 New York Comic Con snapped by Kendall Whitehouse. Photo inset is uncredited pic of Hilarie. This page: Upper right is the Paul Levitz/Joe Staton creation, The Huntress. At right, done for John Read’s superb Stay Tooned! magazine, Joe’s self-caricature used as cover for #2 (2008). Colors by the marvelous Matt Webb. Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

Joe: Well, The Lone Ranger, certainly. The Lone Ranger was always on. CBC: Was that Tom Gill? Joe: All these great Tom Gill comics. I think Joe Sinnott started out as Tom Gill’s assistant. I’ll have to ask him about that. CBC: Tom taught, too, didn’t he? I think he was instructing at the School of Visual Arts. Joe: That’s probably the story. My great failing as an artist (among others) is that I’ve never learned to draw horses. So whenever I have to draw a horse it’s break out those Lone Ranger books of Tom’s and just swipe ’em directly. [laughs] CBC: You must have tried copying horses for a long time, right? Joe: I tried. Hilarie: He took classes! Joe: I took a class with a guy from the Museum of Natural History on drawing horses and… I’ve tried! CBC: They are hard to draw, I can say that. Joe: Yeah. We can’t do everything! [laughter] CBC: Do you remember radio at all? Joe: I do vaguely remember radio and I know I listened to Inner Sanctum. It’s just at the edge of my memory. CBC: And when did you get a TV in the house? Joe: Well, when did [The Adventures of] Superman start? [laughs] Hilarie: Superman with Phyllis Coates was 1952–53 and Noel Neill, ’53–58. Joe: I don’t think it was that early. It must’ve been a rerun. Hilarie: Well, it may have been the end, with Noel Neill. Joe: I think my earliest memories of the Superman show were with Noel Neill, because it was only way later that I realized that Phyllis Coates was… perfect. [laughs] Loved Phyllis Coates! CBC: Me, too! I was always, “This is the bad Lois Lane.” Bad meaning hot! [laughs] Joe: As opposed to the goody-two-shoes Lois Lane. “Where’s the tough Lois Lane?” CBC: Yeah, the good-looking, tough Lois Lane. Joe: I always liked Phyllis Coates because she always let Clark know that she was a better man than he was. [laughter]

All photos courtesy of Joe & Hilarie Staton.

This page: Pix of father Clifford, mother Lila (Butler), son Joe and daughter Janice (Jan) Staton.

Curtis and I always point out that when we were growing up in West Tennessee and didn’t know each other, we were both reading Dick Tracy in the Jackson Sun. [laughs] So it all ties together. CBC: Were you a sociable kid? Was there a neighborhood? Were there other kids around? Did you swap comics and that kind of thing? Joe: I remember at certain points I did swap comics. We had a neighbor named Sonny Day and somewhere along the line we swapped comics. CBC: What a cool name. [Joe laughs] Was he happy? I hope he was. Joe: He was a red-headed kid. I don’t have any idea what happened to him. CBC: Now, did you specifically collect comics as a kid? Did you go, “I want all of these”? Joe: No, I just read lots of comics. CBC: And your parents were fine with that? Joe: Oh, yeah. Sure. CBC: When did you start drawing? Joe: I don’t remember, but the family legend has it that I was found on the floor in the kitchen trying to draw Dick Tracy. Trying to trace the newspaper strip! CBC: Now, you’re not bullsh*ttin’ me, are ya? [laughter] That sounds awfully convenient, Joe! Hilarie: True story! Honest! Joe: Yeah, I’m back where I started! CBC: So you draw now on the kitchen floor? [laughter] Joe: There was one point when I was a teenager, I was on the floor drawing and my Uncle Tommy Butler came in, saw me on the floor, and told my mother, “That boy better be able to support himself doing this ’cause he’s not any good for anything else!” [laughter] And it wasn’t an insult! CBC: Did you make your own strips or comic book stories? Do you remember doing that? Joe: I remember trying to redraw issues of Showcase, but that must have been a lot later. I was always trying to draw strips. CBC: Were you known as an artist in school? Joe: Hilarie’s nodding “yes” over there. Hilarie: When we went to his first high school reunion where we went together, we walked in and somebody asked him what he was doing and Joe, in his way, said, “Oh, I’m drawing funnybooks.” And they looked at him, deadpan, completely serious, and said, “Of course, you are!” It was just taken for granted that’s what he would do. CBC: [Laughs] When were you born? Joe: Nineteen forty-eight. CBC: So Westerns were big in comics. How about the Dell funnybooks? Joe: I didn’t follow the funnybooks as much as like Westerns and TV adaptations, stuff like that. I followed their westerns a lot. I really liked their Western comics. CBC: Was this in combination with what was on TV at the time? Davy Crockett was a really thing… Hilarie: Bat Masterson.

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

TM & © DC Comics.

This page: Young teen Justice League of America reader Joe Staton gets his thoughtful letter printed in JLA #9 [Feb. ’62]. LOC page repros courtesy of Joe, Hilarie, and James Kealy. CBC: She was a little butch. I think that’s probably why she was thrown off, right? They wanted somebody a little more harmless or something. Joe: Then that’s when we got a TV. I had seen a Superman at somebody else’s house and from then on, I had to have a TV to see Superman. CBC: Was he the first super-hero that you took a shine to or were you into Batman or Superman prior to that? Wonder Woman? There wasn’t very much. Joe: I was definitely into Superboy. I remember reading a lot of the Superboy books. John Sikela. CBC: Was there a period where Superboy wasn’t being published? Joe: There must have been, but I was always big on Superman. Never so much Batman… although, the way things turned out, I’ve done a lot more Batman work. CBC: There’s a Dick Tracy echo in Batman, right? Joe: Well, of course, Batman was in the science-fiction, weird episodes. The Batman from Planet X and… CBC: The Rainbow Batman. Joe: Dinosaurs and… It wasn’t really the most attractive period for Batman when I would have otherwise been interested… CBC: The Weisinger comic books? The Superman Family stuff? Did you like that? The mermaid, Lori… Joe: Oh, I loved Lori Lemaris and the “Untold Tales of Superman.” CBC: [Laughs] The “Imaginary Stories”! The concept of imaginary stories about Superman! [laughter] Joe: Ahh, but some are more imaginary than others! CBC: They certainly are! And just because I’ve been thinking about it a lot… My friend just had an almost-mint copy of the first Supergirl, jumping out of the rocket ship. The appeal of the imaginary stories as a child was just all-consuming. It was just wonderful having Superman-Red and Superman-Blue and Nightwing and Flamebird. It was seminal to me! [Joe laughs] Even Jimmy Olsen as a turtle boy… Joe: Turtle boy! Yeah. I was more of a Wayne Boring fan, but Curt Swan was great. CBC: Wayne was all right. Al Plastino was okay. But Curt Swan had George Klein and Stan Kaye inking him! Joe: I think my favorite Curt Swan inker was Dan Adkins. They didn’t do a lot together, but he was so clean and sharp. CBC: Right at that time when Weisinger was leaving. Those couple issues of Action Comics. So, you missed the E.C. Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

Comics? Joe: Yes. I didn’t run across the E.C. Comics at all. I didn’t run across those until reprints much, much later. CBC: Did you get that comics were frowned upon? Did your teachers at school know that you were into comics? Joe: Yes, it was hard to avoid. You know, “Stop drawing in your workbook and pay attention!” [laughs] That sort of thing. I don’t think I was ever berated for reading comics. I think most teachers or anybody else took it as an eccentricity. Nobody ever told me not to read comics. CBC: Did your dad read comics at all? Joe: Oh, yes. He read Superboy to me before I could read. I don’t remember him actually picking up comics to read himself, but he may have. I don’t know because I always had comics around one way or another. CBC: And your sister? Joe: Well not really. Sometimes she would borrow my comics and bend the covers back. CBC: Well, no wonder you were mean to her. [laughter] Joe: But she never read comics seriously. CBC: Did you collect comic strips? Joe: I did. Hilarie: He still has ’em. Joe: I have some. I’ve lost a lot over the years and some molded and stuff like that. But, you know, I clipped Dick Tracy. CBC: You have actual archival proofs! Joe: [Laughs] I don’t have the oldest ones but, like, I would save Tracy… Li’l Abner — I loved Li’l Abner. CBC: Frazetta was ghosting it then. Joe: Right. Robin Malone. That was fairly later. That was Bob Lubbers.

Above: Caption

Above: As college students, Joe Staton and Hilarie Wolford participated in a novel educational program, World Campus Afloat, for the 1968–69 semester. It was while Joe was lecturing on art history when the two would meet and fall in love. The couple were married in 1971 and they recently celebrated their 44th wedding anniversary. Above is that voyage’s itinerary and the ship, the S.S. Ryndam. Below: Hilarie is author of a number of books aimed at young readers.

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Statue of Liberty © the respective copyrighter holder.

CBC: What was it? Joe: It was a woman who, at one point, owned a baseball team called the Robins. [Hilarie laughs] Sy Barry was doing The Phantom. CBC: [Sy’s brother] Dan was on Flash Gordon and Sy was doing The Phantom. Joe: Oh, and I clipped Mac Raboy Flash Gordons. CBC: So you were turned on to the art! Joe: Yeah, I really loved that Mac Raboy style. All that little wispy feathering on Flash Gordon. [laughs] I like Mac Raboy better than any other version of Flash Gordon. CBC: Al Capp: Was the humor above you or did you just take it on a base level? Joe: I think I actually caught a lot of the humor in Al Capp and, of course, I loved the drawing. CBC: Was it the drawing that you pulled you to the story more than the humor? Joe: I think it was both. There’s a whole world in Li’l Abner with Mammy Yokum, the Shmoo, and all that crazy stuff. There was something really crazy about Li’l Abner. I really liked it. Then, there’s a strip that ran in the Jackson Sun called The Jackson Twins, about teenage twin girls. CBC: Nicely drawn? Joe: Very nicely drawn. At one point, I was clipping Mary Worth just because I liked how it was drawn. CBC: Did you aspire to be a comic strip artist? Joe: As best I could aspire to it. I didn’t really know who did it or how they did it, but I think as soon as I figured out that

somebody actually did this, I decided I might as well do it, you know? Yeah, all the way back. CBC: When did you make up your mind you wanted to be an artist? Was it just always there or did you have a point in your life where you said, “This is what I wanna do.” Joe: I think it’s always been there. CBC: It was encouraged? I mean, that’s a tough life, right? Joe: It’s like most everybody around me just kind of accepted it. [laughs] Might as well go with it. When I was in college, I minored in journalism and seriously thinking about working at newspapers as a writer or reporter. You covered things at college meetings and things and got the hang of turning in coverage. And there were good newspapers around. I’m thinking about the Louisville Courier Journal, which also had a really good editorial cartoonist, Hugh Haynie. But I always wanted to draw comics, so that’s what I would up trying to do. There were other possibilities, but I was just set on drawing comics. CBC: What were your parents expectations? Did they have any or were they happy just to let you do what you wanted to do? Joe: Nobody ever told me not to. I guess I thought about teaching or something, but I don’t actually like… I dunno. There were other possibilities, but I was always kind of focused on… on comics! Hilarie: Well, they did encourage you to some extent in high school because they sent you to college art programs in the summers. Joe: Rrrrright. Hilarie: They encouraged the art as opposed to… nothing. Joe: Not so much encouraging as there was no reason to fight it. CBC: You were nagging them to… Joe: Not really, no. That’s just the way it was. CBC: The path of least resistance. Joe: Yeah, that’s it. CBC: Were you a shy kid? Joe: I don’t think I was shy. I was never forthcoming. CBC: Were you involved in any school clubs? Joe: The school newspaper. Away from that, I was in a public speaking contest. So yeah, I was occasionally involved in various things, but I was never really social. My sister was the social one. Actually, sometimes she would have a houseful of people and I would yell at her to go away because I was sitting there trying to draw. “You’re making too much noise! How am I going to draw a comic book with you making all that noise out there!” CBC: Did you have a group of buddies that you hang around with? Joe: Actually, now that I’m on Facebook, I’m back in contact with ’em. CBC: Did you read science fiction? Joe: Yeah. I read a lot of science fiction. I was in science fiction fandom. I was more involved in fandom than I was with other, local people. CBC: How did that come about? Joe: The way that came about was I had a letter published in one of Julie Schwartz’s comics… Justice League, I think? And a bunch of Southern fans all went together in the Southern Fandom Press Alliance. A guy named Bill Plott, from Opelika, Alabama, saw my letter and there was an address, sent me his fanzine, out of the blue, and the strange thing is, on Facebook, I’m back in contact with Bill Plott. Hilarie: And he’s still getting his fanzine! Joe: And I’m still getting his fanzine! I get his fanzine in the mail! CBC: What’s it called? Joe: Well, originally, when I started getting it, it was Maelstrom, like that Norwegian whirlpool. His current one is called Sporadic. CBC: Was that the first fanzine you ever saw? Joe: Yes. CBC: One of those “Eureka” moments?

Photos courtesy of Joe and Hilarie Staton.

Joe: It was! CBC: Was it mimeographed? Joe: It was mimeographed… badly. CBC: And the illustrations were drawn on ditto? Joe: No, not ditto. On mimeograph stencils. You remember mimeograph stencils? Hilarie: They were blue. CBC: I always mix ’em up with ditto. Joe: Yeah, a lot of fanzines were done on ditto, though mimeograph was preferred because it lasted better, but it was harder to reproduce. I guess it was like fabric with a sort of wax in the fabric and you typed it and the keys would like punch the letters. To copy art (and I still have mimeograph tools around somewhere) you would trace the art onto the stencils. CBC: I remember that. You had to redo your art. Joe: Yeah. I do say I’m probably the only currently functioning artist who was influenced by having to adapt his art to tracing on mimeograph. CBC: So if mimeograph comes BACK… ! ’Cause we know it will, like vinyl! [laughter] Joe: If civilization collapses, there’s going to be runs on these… these… CBC: “Who do we know? Send out the pigeon!” Joe: There’s warehouses full of stencilers! You ask Maggie Thompson! Maggie knows all that stuff. Maggie was the master of drawing on mimeograph stencils. CBC: The master of the mimeograph master. Joe: [Laughs] Right! And as Maggie reminded us, Steve Stiles was the real master. CBC: So it was Maelstrom at the time. You get that in the mail and you realize that there’s a community of like-minded people… Was it the science fiction elements in Julius Schwartz’s edited comics? Is that what attracted you? Joe: Yes. CBC: What were you reading as far as fiction goes? Who was a favorite? Joe: Oh, golly. Clifford Simak … my all-time favorite over all was Philip K. Dick. I still read Philip K. Dick. I like Murray Leinster for just straight stories. Oh! And I went through a spell when I was a teenager reading all of the Burroughs stuff! I guess I was a younger teenager. I knew it was junk but I loved it! CBC: The first three or four Tarzan books, but the others… oy! Joe: Oh, who could be critical at that age? [laughter] CBC: All the Pellucidar, John Carter, Carson of Venus in the Ace paperbacks… It was a golden age for that stuff, right? Joe: With the Frazetta covers… CBC: Roy Krenkel… Joe: Yeah! I guess it was Krenkel, right? CBC: They alternated. Joe: So I had those and I went through a spell of reading H.P. Lovecraft. Historical note: Where we live, Kingston, New York, is famous in the annals of H.P. Lovecraft history because he had his suitcase stolen in Kingston, New York. [laughs] CBC: Clark Ashton Smith probably took it. Were you into movies at all? Joe: Not so much movies. I guess there weren’t that many outlets for movies or I just didn’t see them? I do remember going to drive-ins. CBC: How many times did you move between the time you were, like, five and 15? Joe: About three or four. CBC: It didn’t have much of an effect on you? Leaving an entire community behind and starting in a new one? Joe: I don’t remember that being a problem. Hilarie: After you were ten, you only moved twice. Joe: That’s when Daddy died and we stayed in Milan near my mother’s family and especially her brother Tom Butler. CBC: You worked on the school newspaper? You did some writing? Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

Joe: I did some writing. CBC: You had a natural facility to write? Joe: Yes, it came naturally. And I did some art and a lot of paste-up. I guess that’s as close to being social as I was. There would be group gatherings where everybody would get together and paste-up the newspaper. And I would get to hang out with the cheerleaders who also worked on the paper. CBC: When was the first time you saw your name in print? Joe: Apparently the letters I sent to Julie Schwartz. CBC: Did that have an impact on you? Joe: Yes. CBC: It had your street address, too? Joe: I think it must have, yeah. Hilarie: They could have sent it to Milan and it would have reached you. It’s not a city. It’s a small town. Joe: Right. Julie Schwartz is my touchstone. Other than Chester Gould, he was really the first name I attached to somebody who was significant in the comics. So I sent Julie letters and some were published. He was doing the kind of science fiction I liked — Strange Adventures and Mystery in Space. CBC: Did you like “Adam Strange”? Joe: Yes! I really liked “Adam Strange.” A beautiful strip! CBC: For the school newspaper, did you do spot illos or editorial cartoons? Joe: This one time, for the school yearbook, I did caricatures of some of the teachers and I would occasionally do a drawing of a sports event for some reason. It was cartoony, exaggerated stuff. I think they were well-received. I don’t remember any objections. I was just trying to get a cartoon likeness. CBC: No biting satire? Joe: No. [laughs] That was in college! CBC: Those were really changing times. Where were you when JFK was assassinated? Joe: I was in the school library in high school. They didn’t end school but they announced it on the PA system. CBC: They said the President’s dead? Joe: Well, they announced he was shot. I guess they didn’t know he was dead at that point. CBC: Did that affect you? Did you feel like times were changing? Joe: I did think that things were getting a little strange, yes. CBC: Did you feel with Camelot coming on, with the Presi-

Above: As your incredulous editor learns during this comprehensive interview, Hilarie Wolford married artist and aspiring comics creator Joe Staton when he was jobless, in 1971. It was during their budget-conscious honeymoon to Mystic Seaport when Joe stopped at the bottom-of-the-ladder Charlton Comics in Derby, Connecticut, which would jump-start the man’s career. These photos of the couple were shot in the early 1970s. Note the brass plaque. 41

This page: Before becoming a comic book professional, Joe Staton contributed to science fiction fanzines, and even scored a number of art assignments from legendary editor Ted White for Amazing and Fantastic Stories. Above is Rich Brown’s 1972 zine, Beardmutterings #2, profusely illoed by Joe. Below is presumably an unused Fantastic cover (courtesy of Heritage) and inset are two of Joe’s cover jobs for the SF digest mag in 1973–74.

your prospects? Were you always college-bound? Was that assumed? Joe: I think I would occasionally trifle with ideas of heading out and trying to get into comics or something before I went to college, but I don’t think it ever was seriously considered. I was always headed for college. CBC: How did you make spending money when you were a teenager? Joe: Oh! Well… [Hilarie laughs] My uncle Tommy Butler was manager of a Purina feed store. It was a farming community. And I worked for him fairly often, help unload rail cars of chicken chow and corn and stuff like that. The high-point of my working for him was when I would assist in vaccinating chickens. [laughter] CBC: Where’d you have to vaccinate them? In the butt? Joe: No, in the armpit! Chickens are prone to a form of colds and they have to be vaccinated. You do two things to chickens at the same time. You burn off the tips of their beaks with a little electric wire and then you stab ’em in the armpit. It wasn’t like a regular job, Occasionally, I’d work for him. I did odds and ends of other things. CBC: The fanzine work, did that become an obsession? Joe: I’m not sure it was an obsession, but it took a good bit of my time. I did a lot of that. CBC: Yeah, but at the time you would otherwise be socializing, right? So you’re in the room, you’re working alone, yelling at your sister to keep the noise down… Did you get an art table or did you work flat? Joe: I guess I worked flat or on a drawing table for a long time. I actually took the Art Instruction Course through mail when I was in high school. And the table came with the course. I’ve gone through several tables since then. The one I’ve got now I’ve had a long time. For a long time I had a little easel thing that you could use a board on. I have to find one of those somewhere. I really need one of those for shows. But I had a little, angled easel thing you could use on that table. CBC: And this art course that you took? Did they judge your work? Did they grade it? Joe: They corrected it and graded it. CBC: Was it good? Was it useful or were they full of it? Joe: It was limited, but at least they had textbooks that told you what people did, that sort of thing. So, specifically, it was not as useful as it might have been, but exposing you to information was good. CBC: Did you have art classes in high school? Joe: I don’t think we ever had art classes in high school, but there was a college close by, Murray State College, in Kentucky, that had summer workshops for art and I went to those for… what? Two or three… ? Hilarie: Two years, I think. Joe: At least two years. So that was really good. CBC: Were they expensive? Did your mother pay for them? Joe: Gosh, I don’t know. I don’t remember what they would have cost. I probably had a scholarship. CBC: Were you good at saving money? Joe: I’ve always been pretty good at saving money. CBC: Did you continue to buy comics into your older adolescence, your older teens? Joe: There was a spell when I wasn’t buying comics. Hilarie: He was spending his money on science fiction. Joe: Probably! I remember getting back into comics. In Jackson, Tennessee, there was a second-hand bookstore run by an old railroad man named Bill Frady. The connection here is that Mike Curtis — who today writes Dick Tracy — was a regular at Bill Frady’s and was buying his comics and science fiction at Bill Frady’s. I didn’t run into him! CBC: You never met him! Joe: Basically! Mike’s a little bit younger than I am. A couple years, but not much. He was buying his stuff at Bill Frady’s, I was buying my stuff at Bill Frady’s but we didn’t know each other. We probably would’ve crossed. But I ran into somebody that had dumped a bunch of Marvels. I #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Artwork © Joe Staton. Fantastic TM & © the respective copyright holder.

dent coming in, that there was a sea-change coming? Was it a hopeful time? Joe: Yes, I remember Kennedy’s time being very hopeful. CBC: You were in the South, right? What were your views on civil rights at the time? Joe: I was pro-civil rights and all. That sort of thing. CBC: Did you belong to a liberal family? Joe: Well, not really liberal but accepting. CBC: How was the neighborhood? The society you were in? The culture you were in? Joe: Pretty conservative. I mean, my school was all-white and that was before integration. CBC: So your sympathies were with desegregation? Joe: Yes. I was with Kennedy. I was actually very pro on Kennedy. CBC: So it was terrible when he was assassinated? Joe: Yes! It was a shock! CBC: Then times really started changin’ pretty quick, right? Joe: I think, in lots of ways, I’m still a child of the early ’60s. I’m still a Kennedy guy at heart. CBC: What were

Creepy TM & © The New Comic Company.

bought the Fantastic Four with the Silver Surfer books at Bill Frady’s and that got me back into comics. So I was back in again. CBC: When you left it was pretty boring or was it just you had gotten more into science fiction? Joe: I guess it may have been boring. I don’t know. I just lost interest for a while. CBC: Did Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko have an impact on you at the time? Joe: I don’t remember really a lot of influence from Kirby, but I really enjoyed those stories and Ditko’s always really appealed to me. The total weirdness, his Charlton stuff, and… CBC: Did you see Amazing Fantasy? Joe: I have Amazing Fantasy that I bought off the stands. So, yes! [laughs] CBC: Those are some really strange little short vignettes, right? Joe: I loved those things. That’s my favorite stuff. CBC: But the Atlas Kirby monsters, not necessarily? Joe: Not so much, but the Ditko stuff for sure. CBC: How about “Doctor Strange” when that came in? Joe: Oh, I really liked “Doctor Strange”! CBC: Did you pick it up from the first issue? Joe: Oh, yes. CBC: Did you pick up all comics pretty much? How much were you spending? Were you spending a lot? Joe: I have no idea. Hilarie: Proportionately it was, but it might not have been that much. Joe: Yeah. CBC: Was it a necessity to go down to the… Where did you buy them? You bought ‘em at a drugstore? Joe: Mostly second hand at Bill Frady’s but… I would’ve been buying at a drugstore. CBC: The contemporary comics that were coming out. And you would come out with a couple of bucks worth? Was it like something that appealed to you or you just had to get each issue of Strange Tales? Joe: Oh, I don’t think I was doing that. CBC: You were a reader. Joe: I was reading it, yeah. CBC: And you’re glad you held onto some of it. [laughter] So you got out of it for a while. What fanzines were you working in? Did you have your own or what? Joe: Well, I was in the Southern Fandom Press Association so I had my own fanzine there, Invader. I did stuff for my fanzine and for Loki, Yandro, which was Maggie Thompson’s gen-zine, not an APA-zine. A gen-zine is a general circulation fanzine. I did stuff for her, odds and ends. Hilarie: Well, you always did stuff for Dave. Joe: Dave Hulan’s Loki. Hilarie: He’s still a friend. Joe: Actually, he’s the guy we’re going to France with. CBC: So you did spot illustrations? Did you do writing? Did you do reviews? And for your fanzine? What were the contents of it? Was it multi-pages? Joe: It was not thick but it was… several pages. It was an APA. People would comment, you would respond. That sort of thing. There were reviews… actually, a lot like Facebook. [Jon laughs] Hilarie: Actually, that’s a good analogy. Joe: Yes, Before there was Facebook, there were APA’s. Hilarie: APA’s! Joe: Yes, there were APA’s! That’s what I mean. So fanzines and such were my contacts with New York, because other fandom was in contact with the New York fanzine groups — Ted White, Andy Porter, Dick Lupoff…. And then Bill Spicer was one of the founders of comics fandom. I got in contact with him. We’re kind of getting out of order, but I did a story for his Fantasy Illustrated, which was a professionally printed amateur comic book, so I started getting feedback for comics. Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

CBC: Did Ted White buy any of your stuff? Joe: Yes, he did. CBC: My memory of your work was first seeing it as spot illos in science fiction digest, perhaps? You did some covers, too? Joe: Yes, for Amazing and Fantastic. I was in some of the same issues as Mike Kaluta and Jeff Jones, between 1969–71. CBC: Wow. Was that your first professional work? Joe: I guess it was. It was before I was working for Charlton. That was around ’70, I guess. And Ted was… [to Hilarie] What was our New York group? Hilarie: Fanoclasts. CBC: Like “iconoclasts”? Hilarie: Yes. They’d meet every Saturday night. Joe: So I knew Ted through the Fanoclasts and he was buying some of my work. I had comics samples, so he’d seen those at the meetings. CBC: I think we need to back up a little bit. Your college experience: where did you go? What was the plan? Was the plan that right after graduating high school, that September you were gonna start college? Joe: Yeah. CBC: You had said there might be an option to do your…

Above: One of Joe Staton’s first gigs was a horror story written by Steve Skeates, “The Amazing Money-Making Wallet,” which boasts a quite evolving drawing style. The tale appeared in Warren’s Creepy #42 [Nov. 1971].

sarily where it came from. It seemed to come out of whole cloth. It was definitely cartoony, definitely humorous, you could also evoke moods. You really just seemed to have storytelling down hitting the ground running. Even though I knew that you did some illustrations in science fiction digests, it’s was, “Who is this guy?” You had lots of space for color. So the color popped and when you had to get moody like in some of those sinister romances… Joe: Oh, I loved those. CBC: But there was a degree of humor in it, which was not really prevalent at that time. You had some very serious guys like Wrightson and Kaluta. I wouldn’t say overwrought… but very wrought. Joe: Bernie was a little bit ahead of me in getting into comics, so I was seeing his stuff in print before I was working. I would call Bernie an influence. So, kind of secondhand from Bernie, I got the E.C. influence. CBC: You were just an old school professional. I got that same sense from Crumb. It was like, this guy’s been around for decades. He was just so good. You had storytelling down. I mean, now I can perceive you had some early work where you were developing, but I mean… Dude, you hit the ground running. It was really good. Joe: Thank you. CBC: You’re welcome. In college? You minored in journalism, and majored in art? Joe: Yes, I was an art major. There were a lot of us in the art department who’d hang out with the teachers. We had a good group. I think it’s more just being around people who were artists than anything actually learned. Because it was the ’60s and the experience of creating art was valued a little more than the actual art you created so I didn’t learn a whole lot of technical things that I really should have learned when I was in school. But I was around people who were artists who were creating art. And I am actually still in contact with some of those people. CBC: Things were happening in the late ‘60s, man! [Joe laughs] There was San Francisco and the advent of underground comix in ’68. Were they an influence on you at all? Joe: Oh, yes, for sure. Especially Skip Williamson. Skippy! CBC: Oh, yeah! Snappy Sammy Smoot! [laughter] Joe: Bill Spicer in his fanzines was printing George Metzger’s stuff, which was very underground. The EVO [East Village Other underground newspaper] stuff. CBC: Did you see this as, “Wow! This is where comics can go?” You know, like looking at Metzger’s stuff and looking at the undergrounds. “This is different than the mainstream stuff.” Joe: Yeah, but I don’t think it ever really struck me as an option for my stuff. I was never really drawn to doing the underground stuff myself, but I really enjoyed seeing it. Hilarie: [To Joe] Tie college and science fiction together with St. Louis, the World Con. Joe: I knew Ray Fisher in St. Louis. Ray and Joyce Fisher. They were putting on World Con, the World Science Fiction Convention, when I was in college, so I would go to St. Louis fairly often. They had a fan group that would meet up there. So I would take the bus to St. Louis. I did stuff for the World Con program book for them and I had an R.A. Lafferty painting in the show and Lafferty liked it! So that was good! It was about exposure and meeting people. I met Bill Rotsler and people like that. I guess that was probably the first con I went to. I met lots of fans, seeing different things at the art shows, just being around, knowing things were being done. CBC: Were you political at all? I mean, we had the Vietnam war going on and a lot of assassinations and… Joe: I was doing cartoons for the school paper and I was doing cartoons for the radical alternative paper that was being done on campus. A lot of it was just local politics. That’s where my caricatures got more pointed. I got to be pretty good at that. Apparently there was one of the regents, she saw one of my cartoons and she said it really hurt her feelings. She didn’t handle things well. [laughter] It made me #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

E-Man and related characters TM & © Joe T. Staton. Primus TM & © Metromedia Production Corporation. Charlton logo TM & © the respective copyright holder.

Above: Young Joe Staton during his early 1970s stint at Charlton Comics, which was then invigorating itself with new characters and titles under the tutelage of editor George Wildman and writer Nicola Cuti (both cartoonists in their own right). Inset right: The new Charlton “bullseye” logo was unveiled in late 1973. Below: Staton, always appreciative of his professional roots, drew this pin-up for a fanzine, depicting his first regular Charlton assignment, Primus, and his famous co-creation.

Joe: It was just a passing thought. It never developed. CBC: But you did freelance work before you went to comics? Joe: Right. CBC: Were you sending anything in to the houses? Joe: Oh, constantly. CBC: Who did you send ‘em to? And were they kind enough to respond? Joe: Actually, I don’t remember if I was sending stuff in. No, come to think of it, I don’t think I was really sending stuff in before I went to college. CBC: Who was your professional influence who most of all, would you say, aided in your stylistic development? Joe: Probably when I worked for Gil Kane, doing layouts for Gil. CBC: But I mean, who was your favorite during the ’60s? Joe: Oh, Steve Ditko. CBC: Would you say you can see elements in your art that are Ditko-esque? Joe: Oh, sure. I’m very Ditko-influenced! [laughs] I construct figures, backgrounds… There’s a lot of Ditko in my work, I think. CBC: Honestly, the really refreshing thing about your work was I could not distinguish neces-

Primus TM & © Metromedia Production Corporation.

feel a little bad. Hilarie: Was that one in your senior show? Joe: Oh, yes. When I did a senior exhibit, I did big blow-ups of some of my cartoons that had been censored. CBC: This is a side of Joe I did not know! Joe: They had to take a lot of things down and the art students all protested that I was being censored. CBC: You got press out of it? Joe: I don’t think so. Hilarie: Local press. [to Joe] You did. He was very proud of that! [laughter] CBC: You must have clips! You don’t have any clips of it? Joe: No. I don’t. I had a big painting of George Wallace that was entitled, “Alabama Über Alles.” That didn’t go over real well. [laughs] And, of course, I had science fiction illustrations in my show. Normal stuff, too, but some cartoons and some reasonable paintings [laughs] like I should have done. CBC: A big part of the ’60s was sex and drugs and rock ’n’ roll. Were you able to not be so enticed by it. It damaged a lot of people. Joe: I was only minimally…Yes. No. I was not damaged. CBC: Joe, did you inhale? Joe: [Laughs] Yes. [laughter] CBC: Thank god, somebody’s honest! But it didn’t wrap you up in it? Joe: Oh, no. Like I say, I was focused. CBC: How about dating? Did you date at all? Joe: Not much. No. Hilarie: [To Jon] You need to hear about junior year. Joe: What happened junior year? Hilarie: Isn’t it junior year when you went on the ship? Joe: Oooohhh, yes! Right. 1968! [to Jon] She remembers things… Hilarie: There’s a reason I remember that! CBC: That’s the reason she’s here, too, Joe. [laughter] Joe: Yes, that is the reason she’s here. A program called World Campus Afloat, which was operating out of Chapman College, in California, at the time. It had a small cruise ship, where you could go and take college classes while you were on the ship and then have field trips in other countries during the cruise. So we’re going around to Europe and hit Africa once and then South America. We had a very cool art teacher named Joe Kagle and he was having different people in the art programs to give guest lectures. I, of course, volunteered to give a guest lecture on comic books. I did not know much about animation at the time, so, of course, when I gave my lecture on comic books, somebody popped up with a question [laughs] about animation! This was the first time I met Hilarie. CBC: Really!? Hilarie: Yeah. Joe: Actually, I had met her, but the first time I became aware of her, she embarrassed me in front of a lot of people. [laughter] So, yes. That’s what happened. Hilarie: I think that the cruise had a huge impact on Joe. I think that it gave him a lot of confidence and I think that Kagle introduced us to so much all over the world. You know, it was something more than just seeing paintings on a slide. Joe: Talking about being around somebody who actually lived and breathed art, Joe Kagle was the art teacher. He was the guy, yeah. Hilarie: He was amazing! CBC: And he brought you two together. Joe: Yes! Hilarie: He and my roommate. Because my roommate met Joe on our way out of New York Harbor and I didn’t meet him ’til weeks later. Joe: Until you embarrassed me. Hilarie: Yes. CBC: [To Hilarie] Why were you on the ship? Hilarie: I had been away at school and I was having really tough finals. My parents came to pick me up. We had traveled when I was like eight years old and I had really liked it Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

but we didn’t do much after that. My mother was feeling sorry for me and had seen this TV show about this college ship experience, so to soothe my irritated, depressed feelings, she said, “Well, if you come home for a year, you can go off on this for a semester.” She hadn’t talked to my dad about this. [Joe laughs] So I slept on it and the next morning I said yes. And that was it! I came home the following semester, I stayed home for a year, I went out for a semester, and I came home and I finished my degree at local colleges. Joe: We kept in touch. Hilarie: After the ship. CBC: Did you think he was cute? [Joe laughs] Hilarie: Oh, yeah! We didn’t have out first date until the last three weeks of campus. Our first real date was Acapulco. Joe: Somewhere she has pictures of me in Acapulco. There’s somebody selling comic books in the back streets of Acapulco, with ’em all spread out on a sheet on the ground. So she has pictures of me on my knees down on the ground picking up a copy of a book by Esteban Maroto. Joe: We kept in contact after that. CBC: Would you characterize it as “like at first sight” or was it love?

Above: Artist Joe Staton gave the licensed comics title Primus, a Sea Hunt-like syndicated dramatic TV show that lasted a mere 26 episodes, his all when he received the regular assignment from Charlton. The comic lasted for six issues and above is the cover for the finale [Oct. ’72]. Below: Primus TV series star Robert Brown.

This page and next: Covers for the Charlton E-Man, #1–10 [1973–75]. All art by Staton.

CBC: Stylistically, Neal Adams was on the ascendant at the time. Jim Aparo was doing some pretty… Joe: Oh, yeah! We love Jim Aparo. CBC: Did you see yourself fitting into that? Were you confident that you could take on a Batman or a Superman? Joe: I was young. I’d give it a shot! Probably if I had a more realistic assessment of my abilities, I would have given up and gone home right off the bat. CBC: Where does that confidence come from? Joe: A lack of judgment. [laughter] I started taking samples into the offices and getting brushed off by everybody but, when I went to New York, I got a job working for a company in Harlem named Alvimar, which made inflatable swim things and point of purchase displays for stores. I took that so I had some work experience. CBC: What were you drawing? Joe: Well, I did, like, huge mock-ups of V-8 cans, many, many little vegetables. That was actually what I basically did, was mock-ups. CBC: You were Andy Warhol? Joe: I should’ve been! Yeah! In retrospect what I should have done is just stayed with that. [Hilarie laughs] Gone into fine art. Speaking of horses, when the Pinto car came out, I designed an inflatable horse that was made and hung in car dealerships all over the country to sell Pintos. Hilarie: It never quite stood up. [laughter] Joe: It never quite would have balance. CBC: Well, that takes real engineering skill! [laughs] So here you are living on people’s couches eating macaroni and cheese or whatever. [Joe laughs] Joe: I was living on Steve Stiles’s couch [Hilarie laughs] but other fans would sometimes feed me. I didn’t eat much in those days. CBC: You said you stopped in and made the rounds. Can you tell me what a typical “rounds” is, pitching work? Joe: Oh. It was going up to Marvel with some Doctor Strange samples and having appointments and nobody remembers I’m there and John Romita comes out for three minutes, looks at my stuff, and says “Not there yet,” and I go away. CBC: Then did you go to DC? Joe: I did go to DC. I remember [DC production manager] Sol Harrison said my backgrounds weren’t very good. CBC: Did you go see Jim Warren? Joe: I actually did some work for Warren, a couple of stories. Actually, I just barely met Jim Warren. Billy Graham was his editor then, so I dealt with Billy. The weird thing was I went down to Warren’s office several times. I guess they didn’t have a waiting area or something because you could ONLY come up to the office at the appointed time. CBC: They didn’t have any seats? [laughs] Are you serious? Joe: So, if I showed up to see Billy, I would call up to the office and they would tell me when I could come up and I would sit in the park or on the street for a while and then go up. I saw Warren a couple times. That was really the strange #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

E-Man and related characters TM & © Joe T. Staton.

Joe: It may have been love at first sight. It took a while to realize it. Hilarie: Yeah, because when we docked in Los Angeles, I had planned to show him Disneyland and he had to fly back home immediately because his sister was getting married. So we figured at that point that we would never see each other again. Keeping a correspondence going was kinda cool. CBC: Through the mail? Joe: Yeah. Through the mail. That’s what there was at the time! Hilarie: A few phone calls! Although nobody at the other end understood me. [Joe laughs] They were very Southern-accented and I was a California Girl, you know? Joe: That’s where we say we got back together thanks to [then-California Governor] Ronald Reagan. There were no jobs for teachers. Hilarie: I had my graduate degree. I was a 4.0 grad student and put out 20 applications in California, my professor had contacts in the East, so I applied to six districts in the East: on Long Island and in the DC area, and I flew back at Easter and had four interviews, got four job offers. And saw Joe again. Joe: I had come to New York at that point to try to get into comics, so it all worked out. CBC: [To Joe] Did you have any hint that maybe the publishers would give you work? Were you that confident in yourself? Joe: I had my contacts in science fiction fandom. They were just people I knew and people to stay with. Steve Stiles put me up. Steve and I lived on Campbell’s Soup and Ding Dongs. [laughs] Hilarie: And our friends would feed you. Joe: Yes, right. CBC: You didn’t know where your next meal was coming from? Joe: Other friends in fandom would feed us. CBC: What was your goal? Was it DC or Marvel, or… ? Joe: Wherever I could get in comics. I was basically a DC follower. Whatever comics were available. I wanted to work in comics.

E-Man and related characters TM & © Joe T. Staton.

thing: There was nowhere to sit, so it was odd. Hilarie: But that was your first published comic book work. Joe: Right! Steve Skeates wrote the script. It was about a magic wallet. It was more like a Charlton horror story than a proper Warren story. I know this one was published. I did at least a couple others that were not published. That was before Charlton. CBC: Did you want to do comic strips? Joe: I don’t remember if I had done any strip samples at that point, but that was always my intention: To do a strip. I think I just enjoy putting one picture after another and winding up with a story. Never really focused on what should be in the pictures. It’s just do one thing after another and it adds up to something. I’ve always been game for trying most anything. I just like to do comics. I specifically like to do comic strips. I basically just wanted to do comics of any sort. CBC: Did you have any contacts in science fiction that crossed over into the comics world? Joe: I had contact with Dan Adkins through the New York fan things. I was actually sending him stuff all along. CBC: Did he like it? Joe: Oh, Dan was always very, uh… [laughs] depressing. [laughter] But he had suggestions, and in his way he was encouraging. So basically I was trying to cultivate any contact I could get. I was looking for feedback; the usual thing where I’m trying to figure out what to do. CBC: Did you go to comic cons? Joe: The Seuling shows, sure. I may have been at Charlton by the time I was going to them. CBC: Those were incredible shows! There was only, I think something around 2,000 attendees. The talent that was in that room! If a meteor had hit, it would have been the end of the comics industry. A very tall guy, who would call everybody “My boy,” [Joe laughs] would always be at the show. He would be standing there pontificating about… Hilarie: I know who he’s talking about. CBC: I did not know this but you assisted that gentleman, didn’t you? Joe: Yes, I did assist Gil Kane. He called one day and asked me to work for him. I was working at Charlton by that point and somebody had pointed out my stuff to Gil, and Gil said I could compose in depth. That was his phrase: “Compose in depth.” I didn’t just crop the large figure, but I had levels one after the other. That’s what he liked so he wanted to know if I’d do layouts. I knew what he meant. I associate that phrase with Gil. CBC: Do you know who preceded you? Joe: I know Howard Chaykin worked for him at some point and, I think, Ken Landgraf. CBC: Do you know who was composing in depth for him on Blackmark? Joe: I don’t remember. CBC: Harvey Kurtzman! [laughter] He did the layouts for Blackmark. Joe: Actually, there is one of those artist’s replica Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

books on Gil that’s out now that includes some of my layouts! [laughs] It varied with Gil how much he’d redraw things. If he wasn’t much interested, he’d just trace my layouts. There’s an issue of Ghost Rider that has Gil’s name on it that has basically none of his work in it. And Spider-Man! I can’t remember the number but it was a fill-in issue Archie Goodwin wrote. I did the layouts for that and Gil redrew a couple of figures. It was a fill-in issue. It was inked by Frank Giacoia. It was really nice.

Previous page: Far left is a Joe Staton pin-up, newly-colored by Mort Todd, courtesy of Shaun Clancy. Below: Fanzine publisher Martin L. Greim was an early champion of artist Joe Staton and E-Man as seen on this cover for Comic Crusader #16 [1974].

This page: Behind Martin L. Greim’s superb mash-up cover (note D. Duck as E-Man) for the 1975 New Con souvenir book, Joe Staton is profiled and he contributes this rarely-seen pin-up of ’70s art assignments.

comics? Did you ask? Joe: I guess I asked. Dan Adkins and Steve Stiles were involved in that sort of thing. Bill Spicer’s Fantasy Illustrated/ Graphic Story Magazine was interviewing people like Alex Toth and I got a lot of information from stuff like that. CBC: And what did you use? Did you use brush? Did you use pen? Joe: I had gotten the idea that you had to do everything by brush at some point, so early stuff was almost entirely by brush. And, for Charlton, I did a lot of lettering. You basically did everything at Charlton — pencil, letter, ink, send it back in, y’know? They didn’t worry about it. Send it out, get it done. CBC: Did you have color notes on your…? Joe: [Joe and Hilarie laugh] I did try to have color notes at Charlton but it was just a real assembly-line version of getting the separations done. There wasn’t time for them to read notes or anything. The Primus book I remember I had extensive notes that the colors of the fish underwater should be and how they would change at different depths and stuff like that. It comes back and everything was green. [laughs] Some things were light green, some things were dark green. But everything underwater was green. CBC: Were you annoyed? Joe: I just accepted it. After a while, I realized that it wasn’t a useful exercise. CBC: Nobody pays attention! How’d you get into Charlton? Joe: Well, I recently had been thrown out, I guess by Marvel, again. Anyway, I was without a job at that time and we got married. CBC: [To Hilarie] You married an unemployed artist? Hilarie: I was a teacher. I could afford it. Joe: Yeah, she could afford it. It was very nice of her. We didn’t have a lot of money so we were just going to Connecticut for a honeymoon, to Mystic. And Charlton was on the way to Mystic, so I had my samples, we went by, and Hilarie went in with me. Hilarie: On our honeymoon. Joe: George Wildman said very few people showed up for job interviews with their wives. [laughter] But I had samples and George gave me work! As far as I was concerned, I was in comics! I was working for Charlton. Hilarie: Now you have to realize, at that point, he’d just about given up on comics. He had applied to the New School to go into art restoration and had even taken a class in French to fulfill their foreign language requirement. Joe: When I was in college, art history was my option if I didn’t work in comics. It was just by fluke we went by Charlton so I didn’t wind up being an art restorer or being an art historian. CBC: You had already done the jobs for Warren at that time? Joe: Yes. CBC: And all of a sudden, no follow-up stories? You said you did maybe four? Hilarie: I think he was in the middle of those Warren stories when he tried Charlton. They came sporadically and he did them at night. CBC: How was the page rate for Warren? Joe: I think they were paying, like, $30 for finished page? CBC: Did you do lettering there, too? Joe: No, I think actually Ben Oda may have lettered those. CBC: Did you do the logotypes for the titles of the stories? Did you integrate them into the layout? Joe: I think so. I remember I was doing titles… I was influenced by the Filipinos a lot, the way they did the lettering that was part of the picture, kind of free-form. CBC: Yeah. Like E.R. Cruz and Alex Niño? Joe: Yeah. I was very influenced by Niño for a while there. CBC: Were you exposed to Eisner’s Spirit? Joe: The Warren reprints must have been out and there had been some unauthorized reprints earlier. I.W. You remember that? Israel Waldman did Red Mask and reprints of The Green Lama… There was some Spirit and I was really im#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

New Con souvenir book cover art © Martin L. Greim. All characters TM & © the respective copyright holders. Pin-up art © Joe Staton.

I did a bunch of stuff for Gil. I did one issue of Conan for the black-&-white books and Gil says, “Don’t worry about getting into detail here. The Filipinos will fill it all in.” [laughter] There was a thing we did, it was a kind of graphic album for Europe called Jason Drum, which was printed in Tintin. It was a science fiction. It was kind of like Blackmark, a fantasy sort of thing. Gil had almost finished it. Somebody else did the last five pages. CBC: Charlton Comics. George Wildman, Nicola Cuti… “Cutty” or “cutie”? Joe: Nick “Cutty,” like Cutty Sark. CBC: Was the first story that you were assigned Charlton a Gothic romance? Joe: No, the first story at Charlton was called “Waiting Noose” and it was in Ghost Manor. [All are looking at an online database] At shows, there’s always somebody who asks me, “What happened to so-and-so in #13 of such ’n’ such comic, in 1974”… [laughs] I have no idea. There are people who know these things, but I don’t. CBC: How did you learn about the construction of comics? How did you learn the techniques and mechanics of doing

Strip © Joe Staton. E-Man, Nova TM & © Joe T. Staton. All others TM & © their respective copyright holders.

pressed by those… I forgot about the Harvey reprints! It was a real shock to me seeing those. Those were great. CBC: Did it have an impact on you as far as your drawing? Joe: Certainly on layouts. I realized that was something cool and different. CBC: What was George Wildman like? Joe: Very friendly, very accommodating. Sal Gentile was still there when we went in. I guess George was basically running things, but Sal was officially in charge, so we talked to Sal and George. Both were nice guys. George was especially friendly and accommodating. Sent us away with a story and some paper. They had pre-printed pages with the borders and everything to make sure you didn’t get the wrong sizes for the originals. Hilarie: The pay there was pencils, inks, and letters for $24. Joe: Which I thought was fine. [chuckles] CBC: How long would it take you to do a page? Joe: Well, I got to where I could do three pages a day. Obviously it took longer to start out, but I do remember some specific day when I got three pages done and that was my speed from then on. CBC: Did you work every day of the week? Joe: Oh, yes. [laughs] Hilarie: Or nights. CBC: And how did you get it to Derby? Joe: Oh, just shipped it out by mail. Occasionally, we went up to Derby to turn things in and hung out. CBC: Not in a rush to deliver, but just to check in? Joe: It was always good to check in and be a familiar face around the office. And after a while they kept on giving me stories. CBC: Did you socialize with them at all? Did you go out to lunch? Joe: Yeah, when we’d go up. CBC: Look, just to be frank, Charlton wasn’t looking that good at the time. After Dick Giordano left and Sal Gentile came in, there was a lot of Charles Nicholas and Vince Alascia, and some work that wasn’t necessarily pretty. But your stuff came in and was fresh! Joe: That was after Nick was there. [laughs] I knew they were obviously bottom of the barrel, but I didn’t approach it as I was the savior or anything. It was just, “This is where I’m working now.” Hilarie: It was a first step. Joe: Yeah, right. Was Tom Sutton working there by then? Hilarie: Yeah. CBC: Not very much. He was mostly at Warren. Joe: Oh, right. CBC: You came in at that transitional time, when Charlton got a second wind. Nick and George were a part of that. You seemed to approach it with enthusiasm and maybe gratitude. Joe: Well, yeah! I was trying to do the best job I could, you know? CBC: Was there any sense that Charlton was on the comeback? They’d gone through the Action Heroes. Were you familiar with that work? Joe: Oh, yes, certainly all the Ditko stuff, Captain Atom, Blue Beetle… And I came after it. [laughter] I was not at DC when Bernie and those guys were making the big breakthroughs, I wasn’t there when Dick Giordano was making the big breakthroughs at Charlton. I’d come along at odd times. CBC: You forged your own path. Look, I did, not one, but two issues of Comic Book Artist devoted to Charlton. The first one was the Action Heroes with Dick Giordano. The second one was the Charlton of you, Nick, and George. Joe: Right, with the cover with all the hosts. I loved doing that cover. CBC: Yeah, that was great! CBC: I had a contest to see who could name them all. Because there were a couple there that were tough even for me. Joe: There was one little blob of a thing behind somebody that nobody identified. Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

CBC: What was it? Joe: I think he was called the Thing. [laughter] CBC: Ghost Manor was the first job and then you did the Secret Romance? Joe: Actually, I think the way it worked out was the first thing I did was the Ghost Manor story and they gave me Primus right after that. I think the first issue of Primus is dated the same as that ghost story. I did all of them, however many there were. [Looking at the Primus photo covers] Sal liked to do those collages. He did those personally. CBC: February of ’72. So it was ’71 that you were actually working on a licensing project. A series! Right off the bat. Joe: Yeah! CBC: You have to explain for our younger readers who Primus was. Who was he? Joe: [Laughs] Well, back in the days before cable, there was syndication and local stations had to fill in time slots that didn’t

Top: Joe Staton strip for the ’75 New Con souvenir book.

Below: Rejected cover art for E-Man #1 [Oct. ’73]. Newly colored by Michael Watkins, the origin prologue from E-Man #9 [July ’75]. Both appear in the collection E-Man: The Early Years.

affection for that strip? Joe: Oh, sure. I actually liked the stories. The stories Joe was writing were much better than the actual show. The show didn’t have much of a budget for location shooting. Being a skin-diver show, you would think they would vary the locations on it. But Joe was writing these international spy stories. He was getting Robert Brown into these intrigues. I thought it was a pretty good strip. CBC: You got a good likeness there. “Primus must not fail! The Stakes Are World War III!” A little bit of big budget. [laughter] Rather than… “A dolphin!” Joe: Flipper must not fail! The stakes are World War IV! CBC: “The man called Yang.” [laughs] Joe: “The man called Flipper!” CBC: I got into Primus right at the end. It was hard to take notice of Charlton because they had done so many anthology books. There was some Ditko in there, but a lot of it was not the most exciting stuff. But then all of a sudden this good stuff starting showing up. Did Nick show up pretty soon in the game? Hilarie: Must have been in 1972. Joe: Because that was E-Man… Hilarie: In ’73. Joe: Yeah. I did a bunch of Nick’s horror stories before E-Man. I’m not sure exactly when I met Nick but he may have actually still been working for Wally Wood. I remember going to Nick’s apartment way back then. Hilarie: No, I think he was already at Charlton. When he lived up the road. He started out with Wally Wood and moved over to Charlton. CBC: And he worked for Warren for a little while, did some editorial work over there. He is a triple-threat, writer, editor, and cartoonist. Joe: He had his own little cartoon strips in the back of… Weirdlings…? Little panel cartoons. Nick could do all kinds of things. He did some really good ghost stories. CBC: And I guess he made himself useful with George right off, right? Started helping the direction of the company. Joe: Yeah, he was always pestering to get another idea all the time. CBC: [To Hilarie] What was your impression of Charlton when you first went there? Hilarie: I wouldn’t have had anything to compare it to because I had never been to DC or Marvel. I didn’t care anything about DC or Marvel comics. I was much more interested in science fiction kinds of things than comics. Then when Joe started getting the Charlton bundles, I thoroughly enjoyed the romance and the ghost and all that stuff. So I didn’t especially have a negative feeling about them and the fact that they were technologically not far advanced [Joe laughs] was beyond me because I had no background or prejudice. CBC: But it was a perfectly acceptable place to look at? It wasn’t run down or anything like that? Hilarie: Oh, no. It looked like an office building out in the country. I mean, it was in the suburbs. I come from the suburbs of L.A. and that’s what places look like. CBC: Did you guys get a tour of the plant? Joe: Oh, yeah. CBC: Do you recall what they published besides the comics? Did you see them? Were they still doing Hit Parader magazine ? Joe: I think so. Hilarie: Yeah, they were doing a couple of different teen music magazines. CBC: Do you remember if they were printing cereal boxes? Joe: I do not remember cereal boxes. But I wouldn’t doubt it. CBC: You know what else they printed? You were gone by that time. Of great notoriety. They were the first printer of Hustler magazine. Joe: I did not know that. We did not see that! [Hilarie laughs] #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

E-Man, Nova TM & © Joe T. Staton.

have network shows… There were shows that were produced not for the networks but were sold separately to local stations to like fill in dead time. CBC: Right, prime time used to start at 7:30, and then they switched it to starting at 8:00 and all of a sudden there’s this half-hour hole for local stations to fill. Joe: Primus was done for that market. It was done by the guy who did Sea Hunt, Ivan Tors. CBC: And Ivan was known for Flipper. He had a lot of sea stuff and… Joe: And Gentle Ben. CBC: [Laughter] With Clint Howard. Joe: But they were never good at giving us reference. Some black-&-white photos… and we did see the show. Hilarie: And we’d go out to the marina and take pictures of boats and things… Joe: We actually tried to be very serious about it with getting real reference. Like I said, trying to get the fish colored right and stuff like that. Joe Gill wrote them. One of my favorite things at Charlton was they’d give me one of Joe’s stories and I’d go back and tell Joe later that I liked it, looked like a good story, but he’d forgotten all about it. He had no memory of what he’d written that morning. CBC: [Reading] “TV’s Greatest Sea saga! Starring Robert Brown.” The actor’s name is on the cover of each one. Do you have

All characters TM & © Joe T. Staton.

CBC: Yeah, it was after your time. About 1976 or ’77. So what was the first thing you did with Nick? Did you just do short stories? Joe: Yeah, the short stories. I don’t remember which one was our first. Hilarie: Was it the little boy and the egg? Joe: That was a good story. It may have been the first. About a little boy who finds a giant egg on the beach and a monster hatches. That was a really good story. Nick’s stories always had like a lot of humanity to them, you know? CBC: There you go and then you’ve got Midnight Tales #1. That’s definitely Gothic. You were doing back-ups for Wayne Howard. Did you know Wayne? Joe: I met him a few times. He was very likable. He did seem like he was pretty shy. He always wore the same jacket. He had a kind of safari jacket that he always wore. Somebody told me he had many of them. I’m not sure if that’s true or not. [laughs] CBC: Was it just, “Hello, hi, and farewell,” or did you… ? Joe: I don’t think I ever really had a chance to hang out with him. CBC: Did you like his stuff? Joe: Yeah. The Wally Wood stuff was always fine by me. [chuckles] Midnight Tales was cool. I think that was where Nick wrote them and each issue was kind of on a theme. The stories kind of related to each other. CBC: It was unusual for an artist to be credited on the cover, wasn’t it? Joe: Yeah. He really worked on those. CBC: Primus is gone by #7, Oct. ’72. Midnight Tales, Haunted, Teen Confessions, Dr. Graves. So you were just getting these short stories? Joe: Yeah. CBC: Love stories! How was doing romance? Joe: [Looking at database] I seem to have done more romance stories than I recall. CBC: [To Hilarie] Did you like the romances? Hilarie: Well, I think so many of them were so close to just plain horror or ghost stories… Joe: Yeah, I guess a lot of the romance stories were like horror stories with no monsters. Just characters and situations. CBC: So it’s the Spring of ’73. You’re there two years working for Charlton. How did E-Man come about? Joe: Well, as I recall, Nick was actually trying to start another line of super-heroes — Action Heroes — for Charlton. Some of them wound up as back-ups for E-Man — short versions — but most of them weren’t accepted. But they did let him go ahead with E-Man. One was called Mastermind, which he was going to do with Don Newton. Nick recently dug out that script and I’m actually drawing that script now. I’ve penciled it. It’s off with Bill Pearson being lettered. Michael Ambrose is going to publish the 16-pager in Charlton Spotlight. CBC: Was “ROG-2000” one of the proposed back-ups? Joe: “Liberty Belle” may have been one. Nick had several but Byrne brought ROG-2000 to Charlton. That’s simply Byrne’s original character. I heard about E-Man when Nick called me one day and asked if I liked the idea that he had for this character who was caught in an explosion, a mishap, at an atomic plant and becomes an atomic character. I told him, “No. Nick. That just sounds like redoing Captain Atom.” He says, “Oh, okay. I’ll think of something better.” So he calls back and says, “There’s this character who’s an energy being from a supernova.” I said, “Oh. Yeah. That sounds cool.” So that was my input into the creation of E-Man. CBC: That was your first super-hero? Joe: Uh… yeah! Nothing like super-heroes! CBC: Now there’s a real comedic tone to the series. Was Jack Cole’s Plastic Man any influence? Joe: Oh, yes. Nick says that was one of his basic influences there and I was always very fond of Cole. I encountered Plastic Man through that DC Special and the origin was in Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

the Feiffer book, The Great Comic Book Heroes. Actually, there’s this issue of E-Man where Plastic Man is going down the street. You can see him in the background. He and Woozy are back there. CBC: You got the comedic sensibility of Plastic Man in there, but also the sensuality of Eisner, with Nova. Joe: The funny thing about Nova: Hilarie came in from work and I’d gotten the script in the mail during the day and I was telling her about the script. I says, “And then there’s the girlfriend and her name is Nova Kane.” I’d never said it out loud before! [laughter] She started giggling and I realized, “Ohh, Novocain — Nova Kane… I get it!” CBC: It took me 20 years to realize that. [laughter] ‘Cause I didn’t say it out loud! I’d just read it. “Must be a Gil Kane homage or something.” Charlton had some faith in this. I recall a presence at the 1973 Seuling Con. You guys were pushing it. I’ve still got Charlton stickers. You guys were handing out the little “how-to” book. Is that your memory? That E-Man launched at the ’73 Seuling Con? Joe: I don’t tie them together that well, but I remember them in conjunction. I remember being at that table. CBC: Was that the first time that people started taking note of you? Had people been taking note of you prior to that? Did you receive any fan mail? Joe: Oh, golly. I don’t remember. CBC: You mentioned before that some people had “feelings” about Nova. Joe: I have run into multiple people — men… Hilarie: Of an age. Joe: Yes. I think it’s good to take Nova as an ideal woman, you know? She’s smart, she’s tough, she’s talented, she’s…

Above: Teddy the koala we’re not so sure about, but any Staton retrospective would be remiss in not mentioning Mike Mauser! Top is detail from E-Man Recharged #1 [Oct. 2006]. Courtesy of colorist Matt Webb. 51

uh… a pretty hot babe! [laughter] Nova struck a chord somewhere. Hilarie: She’s got great hair. CBC: She was also a little bit risqué, right? She’s an exotic dancer. Hilarie: Working her way through college! CBC: What was her major? Hilarie: It was geology at one point. Joe: It varied. I think it was geology and then it became archaeology. I think officially she’s an archaeology major. CBC: Was it a hit? Did you have any idea how sales were? Was there anyone talking about it at the Charlton offices? Joe: I know it was not doing great. It was obviously getting a following, but it wasn’t doing well enough to keep it going, and I think that’s why Nick switched Nova to being a super-heroine at a certain point, to get kind of a double super-hero presence in there. Hilarie: But they had enough faith in it to do some marketing because they had T-shirts! Joe: Yeah, JC Penney sold E-Man T-shirts. CBC: Oh, really! What was the design? Joe: It was the E-Man emblem on an orange shirt. No, that’s the one First did. The Penney ones were with the character and an energy burst in very strange color combinations. Hilarie: And also the book got well-distributed because we went to England during this time and actually found an E-Man in England. Joe: We actually ran into a Frenchman who came from Paris once a month to London to buy E-Man! [laughs] I really treasure that! I think that was great. I wish I knew his name! [Hilarie laughs] He’s probably on Facebook! CBC: I’m very grateful that I was able to write the introduction to E-Man: The Early Years so, as a dutiful person, I sat down and re-read them and they’re just charming! I don’t know if I’d call the comics overall dark at the time, but they were looking for an identity, I guess, or maybe they were turning their back on the fun old stuff. There was a Captain

Marvel revival with Shazam! I guess it lasted for a while, but it struggled in its own way. Plastic Man never really caught on. E-Man resonated. It was really a “comic book” comic book, y’know? It lasted ten issues. Let’s see how the frequency was. [looking at database] There was a jump for the third issue. Hilarie: Oh! That was the paper shortage. Joe: Yeah, that was when Charlton ran out of paper. There was a strike in Canada, so there was a real shortage of paper. We got a letter from George Wildman saying “These are dark days. We have nothing left to print on.” So there was a gap. Oh, and we did the energy shortage story because of the energy crisis in New York, because of the brownouts. So we had the third issue ready, but we went ahead and did the energy crisis story and that was printed as the third issue. Then what was supposed to be the third issue was printed fourth. CBC: Was it in Nick’s mind that he said, “Oh, E-Man = Energy Crisis?” And was that the same one where they talked about Abe Beame’s New York? Joe: Yep. CBC: Kinda critical, wouldn’t you say? Joe: Yes, right. That was a really good story, which introduced Michael Mauser. It introduced Samuel Boar, the evil energy manipulator, who winded up stealing people and plugging them into the grid. CBC: You guys were living in… Hilarie: Well, by ’72, we were up here in West Shokan. We only stayed in Brooklyn… well, Joe was there 2 ½–3 years. Joe: Started in Bay Ridge and moved to Sunset Park, then we moved up here. CBC: What’d you think of New York? Living in the city? Joe: It was kind of difficult. Hilarie: Unless you had money, it was hard. I was teaching out on Long Island. Every morning, I would drive 45 minutes out to the island. We lived right off the Interstate. CBC: Would you characterize yourselves as poor, middle #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

E-Man and Nova TM & © Joe T. Staton. All art © Joe Staton. Comic Book Artist TM & © Jon B. Cooke.

This page: Some people called us nuts for devoting two enormous issues of Comic Book Artist magazine to the history of Charlton Comics some 15 years ago, but we had a ball revisiting the story — and revealing quite a bit of unknown detail — of the Derby, Connecticut comics publisher. The best thing? Hosting a reunion of artist, writer, and characters (albeit for a mere pair of pages) for a poignant short story that gets to the essence of E-Man’s appeal: It’s a romance. Not only did Joe draw that tale, but he contributed the CBA #12 cover, sporting over a dozen Charlton characters appearing on that Mar. 2001 ish!

Countess Von Bludd TM & © the respective copyright holder.

class… ? Hilarie & Joe: [In unison] We weren’t middle class! [laughter] CBC: Were you struggling? Did you get help from family at all? [to Hilarie] Did your family like him? Hilarie: They were not sure what to make of him. Joe: I think they liked me. Hilarie: They didn’t quite understand him but then neither did his family. [laughter] CBC: How would you characterize your family? Are they conservative? Hilarie: No, no. They’re not conservative. My mother was very liberal. Joe: I don’t think they knew artists. Hilarie: They didn’t not accept him because he was an artist. It was just, he was from the South, [Joe laughs] he lured their daughter to Brooklyn. And they’re New Yorkers! My mother was born in New York although she left at six months old. My father grew up and went to high school in Bay Ridge, in Brooklyn. So I had family there! Although Joe was here already, I had family as a fall-back. But he was an unknown. CBC: Did they grow to like him? Hilarie: Yeah, I think so. I think they all did. CBC: How were your parents with Hilarie? Joe: Everybody’s always loved Hilarie. [Hilarie laughs] CBC: What’s not to love? How was the wedding? Joe: The wedding was… was interesting. Hilarie: It was very modest. It was in the basement of The Bossert Hotel in Brooklyn Heights. I’m Jewish and a cantor/ rabbi did the wedding ceremony. Joe: Goodbye, Columbus. Hilarie: He was the cantor in the movie Goodbye, Columbus. And he sang our ceremony. CBC: THE Philip Roth? Joe: Yeah! CBC: Cool! And when was that? What was the date? Hilarie: April 18th, 1971. Joe: So I married her one day and got work at Charlton the next. Hilarie: Literally! CBC: And you were going up to Mystic! Joe: Yeah. Of course we were broke so we couldn’t actually go into the exhibits. Hilarie: We stood looking. And we stayed at a little hotel that had a wedding suite, a honeymoon suite. Joe: I do have to say it wasn’t because Hilarie’s parents weren’t willing to help us. They certainly were. But I was very stubborn and a lot of times I wouldn’t… I was difficult. I felt like, if we didn’t make it on our own, it didn’t count… so we could’ve had help. CBC: But you didn’t need it? Joe: We did need it! [laughs] Hilarie: We just figured out how to make it without it. I remember the first time I ever bought clothes, it was something on sale for $15 and it was a whole outfit. I bought it, went home, and said, “I hope you don’t think I spent too much money!” I was really concerned. Joe: As you see, the mystery of all this is why she hasn’t left yet! [laughter] CBC: How old were you when you got married? Hilarie: Twenty-three. We’re just a couple months apart. CBC: What’s your maiden name? Hilarie: Wolford. CBC: And your parents? Were they professionals? Hilarie: My mother was a psychiatric social worker and my father was a truck driver and soft drink salesman for Dr. Pepper and also made and designed furniture. CBC: How would you categorize what makes you guys work? Are you complementary — with an “e” — to each other? How long have you been married? Joe: How long have I been working? [laughs] Hilarie: Forty-four years next month! CBC: Congratulations! God bless! To her or you? [laughter] Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

Joe: Yes, that’s what makes it work. Hilarie is a saint. CBC: I didn’t know you people had saints! [laughter]. Is one more practical than the other? What’s the dynamic? Hilarie: I think we’re complementary, but in a very similar way. I make written lists, but he’s got ’em all in his head. He has in an interest in this, but I have an interest in this plus that. It’s just there’s a lot of overlap. I remember one of our early conversations was about my Master’s thesis, which was about brain research and the kinds of learners people are. We’ve always had this kind of give and take in how we live and what we talk about because I think we both respect each other in terms of not only what we do, but our intellect and I think that was always important. CBC: What’s it like for you two to work together? Hilarie: We worked together in some of the educational writing that I did and Joe would just do spot illustrations. We did not work together comfortably early on. It wasn’t until we did this [comics for children regarding medical conditions] and we learned how each other worked because Joe sees things really visually — he wants X-amount of information, and I have all this information about how Joe works! I know his complaining about this writer gave him too much information and this writer didn’t give him any information [Joe laughs] and that writer gave him garbage. Joe: No names! [Hilarie laughs] No names. Hilarie: So in trying to walk the line, I had to learn

This page: Don’t forget that Joe Staton designed the hostess of Scary Tales, Countess Von Bludd.

Attention Charlton Fans! Boy, is this the Charlton Age of Fandom! E-Man stories by Joe & Nick are due to appear in two nifty new Crelated titles in the future: Mort Todd & Roger McKenzie’s The Charlton Arrow. Visit www.morttodd.com/ charlton for more information. Michael Ambrose’s Charlton Spotlight Comics. Visit www. charltonspotlight. net for the scoop. This page: Examples of Joe’s ’70s Marvel inking assignments on The Avengers (Sal Buscema pencils) and The Incredible Hulk (Herb Trimpe pencils).

you have difficulty sometimes with guys who said, “Yeah, I put a hundred characters here and I want them all looking this way,” or something like that? [Joe laughs] That wasn’t really thinking visually? Joe: I have had occasions, right, where they did not think about what they put into a story. Yeah, that’s happened on occasion. CBC: And how do you handle that? Joe: Sometimes just make the best of it. Sometimes that is a matter of cropping. You can only show so much and have to figure out what actually is necessary to a shot. Very rarely I’ve asked for something to be changed or changed it myself. That’s very rare. CBC: How was Nick. Is Nick visual? Joe: Oh, Nick is totally visual. When we started, he would do thumbnails. I wish I’d held onto some of them. He did the Wally Wood way of doing a script. He drew panels on a page and he didn’t really do much drawing in those, sometimes stick figures or little directions in there to show just kind of what he had in mind and the copy and everything would be written out in those panels. It was a good way of pacing things. CBC: It worked for you? Joe: Real well. I don’t know if it was pressure or just realizing that everybody else was typing scripts, but he got to where he would type the scripts. That worked well, too, because everything was still quite visual. CBC: You even did one issue with E-Man with a spoof of Li’l Abner. Did you guys flesh out story ideas together? Was there a, “Hey, I would like to do a Li’l Abner parody,”or something like that? Joe: I think he would call me and just tell me what he generally had in mind and see if I was up for that. But we never talked out story points or anything. Hilarie: I would bet, whether it was on the phone or when they got together, they tossed possible ideas and laughed hysterically at them. [Joe laughs] And then they’d pick and choose them. Joe: That makes sense. CBC: You guys were friends. Joe: We still are! [Hilarie laughs] CBC: We need to talk about a certain detective. Joe: Oh, Mike Mauser. CBC: How did that come about? Joe: Well, he showed up in E-Man #3, which was done as #4. Actually, Nick had the idea for a detective based on Arnold Stang. CBC: Arnold Stang would be best known as the sidekick in The Man With the Golden Arm. But he was the voice of the bee in Honey Bunches of Oats. Joe: He was a little guy with a really nasal voice, little glasses… He’s in that movie with Arnold Schwarzenegger, Hercules in New York. And since Nick was hanging out with Wally Wood and they had guns around all over the place, the idea of Mauser… Nick had a Mauser. Very cool gun. The ultimate gun, visually, and it came together. CBC: And Stang? Was he visually mousy? Joe: Well, the weird thing… The visual I wound up with Mauser — this was obviously before the Internet and it was hard to find a lot of things — so I didn’t really have any reference on Arnold Stang. I knew who he was just generally but that was when the Dustin Hoffman/Steve McQueen #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Avengers, The Incredible Hulk TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

my way and he had to learn what he could give me along the way. I think the last couple books we did were very easy to do in that respect. Because now a lot of what a writer would have to do, we talk out. So we might figure out the story. I figure I’ll do all the research, give him what I think he needs, we’ll talk about the story, I’ll break down the story, and then he’ll… He’ll help me break down the pages and things because that’s not easy for me. And he sees things as a page… and I have no idea. CBC: [To Joe] What do you have to say? Joe: That seems reasonable! [laughs] CBC: You easy to work with? Joe: Yeah, I think so. Hilarie: Yeah, I think he is easy to work with, but none of his other writers live with him! [laughter] It’s also, you know… me! I didn’t know what was expected of me, as a writer. I wasn’t sure what he needed. CBC: [To Joe] Okay, when you first started getting scripts, did you start out of the gate to take some liberties? Did you pace them differently? Did you diverge from the direction… Let’s say a Joe Gill script came in. Was he specific about direction? Joe: Yeah, Joe’s directions were pretty clear. CBC: And you followed them? Joe: Yeah. I did follow them. I normally tried to follow them. Whatever the writer gives me I try to follow it. CBC: Do you re-pace and emphasize some things that maybe hadn’t been emphasized? Joe: Well, when I started with Charlton, I did very conservative breakdowns, very conservative panels on a page, and I remember there was a certain day when I got Joe Gill’s script that I realized that I did need to emphasize things differently. I think there was a hidden city or something, so I managed to rearrange the panels so I had some small panels and I had this one huge panel of a big hidden city. So I realized with what the writer was giving me I could manipulate what was in front of me to make the story work better. But I very seldom would make any real changes. CBC: Did you have some scripters who weren’t particularly visual and you brought more to it? Did

The Huntress, DC Super-Stars TM & © DC Comics. Levitz portrait © the estate of Seth Kushner.

movie was out, Papillon. And there were all these pictures of Dustin Hoffman in these really thick little glasses in Papillon, so I just thought, “Well, he’s not Arnold Stang, but he’s close enough. So that was the original visual. Dustin Hoffman looked very mousy and very rat-like, and I think I have some memories of an E.C. character who looked… CBC: Yeah, right. “Outer Sanctum.” Joe: Right. And that was a reprint in one of the black-&white paperbacks and that was the original Mauser. So it kind of all came together. He’s Mauser, he looks mousy, he carries a Mauser. It’s just one of those things. You can’t get that mix of names and visuals again that just comes together. CBC: And his demeanor? Was it cynical, hard-bitten? Joe: Yeah. Although Nova’s tough, she’s not bitter and she’s trying to keep E-Man’s idealism, his niceness, intact around Mauser, and Mauser is presented as a kind of cynical, embittered character, so the dynamic is really between Nova and Mauser fighting for the soul of E-Man! That’s the basic dynamic there. CBC: And ultimately what would Mauser use E-Man for? Joe: Violence? When we were doing E-Man later, Mauser employs E-Man as an agent in the detective agency, but that’s just a technicality. Hilarie: But I think the goal for Mauser isn’t violence. The goal is to solve whatever it is and, very often, whether he’ll admit it or not, it’s something fairly humane and so even though they may be going after the soul of E-Man, where they end up is a fairly humane place, whether he does it for Mauser or for Nova. Joe: Yeah, I think part of it is both Nova and Mauser are trying to be tough or they’re tough enough but they basically have hearts of gold. Hilarie: They’re tough in protecting E-Man, too, because he’s not tough and that’s something they don’t wanna see him lose! [laughs] Joe: Yeah, I don’t think we ever got into this as a story, but if E-Man had fallen into the wrong hands when he first came to Earth, he could’ve taken over the Earth or he could’ve launched an intergalactic war. I mean, even turning to the dark side is certainly not a pleasant proposition. His powers have to be channeled and maybe he doesn’t understand that Mauser’s cynicism is only a front. I mean, actually, once you start talking about it E-Man is a more complex character than he might seem to be. CBC: Does he have potentially infinite power? Could he be god-like? Joe: I always figured him as a minor deity. He has the power of a supernova. CBC: Which means he could obliterate the solar system. Joe: He could! Yeah. Well, he’s part of a supernova. He could probably take out the other planets, that’s for sure. CBC: Never knew it had such depth. Did you have interest to write at all? You’ve written some things, right? Joe: There are things that have been written with my name on them. [Joe and Hilarie laugh] Never been seriously motiComic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

vated to write my own stuff. I submitted some script ideas for Primus when I was doing that and they told me, “That’s Joe Gill’s job.” So I didn’t follow up on it. Hilarie: He likes drawing too well! Joe: I think writing comics properly is a whole other thing, [chuckles] a little too complex to work out the structures. CBC: E-Man lasted 10 issues and, in 1974, you got into Marvel, inking The Avengers. Hilarie: Oh, right. That’s the phone call. Joe: Oh, that’s right. Roy Thomas called up out of the blue. He was editor at Marvel at that time and Roy called up, told me his whole life story for about an hour, and then says, “Would you like to ink The Avengers?” I said, “Well, yeah!” And he says, “Okay. It’s on the way.” He sent the Sal Buscema pages. [laughter] CBC: Was it just as easy as that? [laughter] Was it like, “Hey, honey, I’m at the House of Ideas.” Hilarie: It was like that! Joe: It’s like Gil Kane called up one day and says, “My boy, would you like to do layouts for me?” and I said, “Sure.” And then Roy calls up and says, “Hey, you wanna ink for Marvel?” “Okay.” CBC: You were a fan of Gil’s work, right? So, in the chronology here, where did Gil fit in? Joe: I was working for Gil while I was still doing E-Man. I worked for Gil, I guess, for about a year. CBC: Did you get paid? Joe: Very little and not often. Gil died owing me money. Hilarie: But it was well worth it. Joe: Yes. Well, I told Gil one time that, “Well, you’re not gonna pay me, so I’ll chalk this up to education.” Actually, he started laughing and said, “Oh, that’s great!” [Hilarie laughs] I would like to get some of those layouts back. CBC: So, what was the commitment? Did you go in to his… Where was his place?

This page: Two lasting friendships made during Joe Staton’s freelance career at DC Comics include Paul Levitz (above) and Brit artist sensation Brian Bolland (below). Levitz & Staton co-created The Huntress together. Bolland drew the cover for the collection seen top right.

Above: Thanks to recruiting by Paul Levitz, Joe Staton received a ton of DC assignments in the ’70s, including a stint on Plastic Man and illustrating the two-part run of Power Girl in Showcase [1978]. Cover detail of Showcase #97 and panels from same.

CBC: Obi Wan Kenobi! “These are the reservations you’re looking for.” Joe: We are the droids who have reservations! [laughter] Yeah, that was quite an evening! CBC: Now, he was quite a raconteur. Did he impart his wisdom on you? Was it a dialogue? Joe: It was a… Hilarie: A monologue? Joe: It was a monologue. He did pause occasionally to let me agree with him. [laughter] Hilarie: But his stories were great! Joe: Oh, yeah. He had stories about everything! And he had theories about everything and how to draw stuff. I was very impressed with Gil. But he understood that he was not transformational. But he was very dynamic. CBC: Did you channel him at all in your Green Lantern work? Joe: Oh, yeah! CBC: Actually, a lot of your work you could argue is Kane-influenced. Joe: Well, it’s that whole composition in depth thing, really. My super-hero stuff shows a lot of Gil’s composition and storytelling. Because, you know, when I was working for him, I was totally trying to understand how he told a story. That was what I was doing and it stayed with me. CBC: Do you think he’s under-appreciated? Joe: Yeah, I think so. I did talk to him on the phone very often. I’d ask him questions and he would explain things. CBC: You not coming the fan route, but you were a professional right off. You were a neophyte in the beginning, but you were a peer! You looked at it as a job. Was the end goal ever to work on Superboy or Superman or… ? Joe: [Laughs] My goal was to do comics! Hilarie: Joe introduced me to comics. I never got the feeling he was a “fan,” except for specific comics, specific issues at certain times. It was always, “This is what I’m gonna do. This is what I was meant to do!” Joe: Right. CBC: And you were a professional. Were you always on time? Joe: I was always on time. I was compulsive about being on time. But I do remember I was inking one issue of The Incredible Hulk when the previous issue was on the stands. That was close. Hilarie: And then there was the time that we couldn’t leave for vacation because we were waiting in the mail for pages to come for him to ink and they would arrive one or two at a time. Even though he was intending to take the assignment with him, he couldn’t leave because not all the pages were there! CBC: You’re in Marvel and simultaneously you did a “Mike Mauser” back-up in Vengeance Squad. Joe: Yeah, we did several Mauser stories in Vengeance Squad. I think Mauser is one of the all-time great characters. CBC: Scary Tales! I was always curious. There seemed to be some books coming out of Charlton that seemed linked to certain creators — for instance, Monster Hunters and Haunted Library with Don Newton and Midnight Tales with Wayne Howard… Scary Tales came across as your book. Did you design the host? She had orange hair. Joe: The Countess Von #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All TM & © DC Comics.

Joe: Wilton, Connecticut. Hilarie: It wasn’t too far from Charlton, but I don’t know that it was in the same exact direction. But we drove over there and hung out for a day at his house. CBC: What’d you think of him? Hilarie: Oh, I was really impressed! [laughs] He intimidated me! CBC: Did he call you, “My boy”? Joe: He always called me, “M’boy!” Hilarie: And his wife was really sweet. Joe: And his mother was there. A sweet little lady. Very much a little old country lady. Our favorite Gil Kane story is a show in Boston, Newcon, and we were there and going out to dinner with Gil and Archie Goodwin and our friend Colleen. We wanted to go to Trader Vic’s. We had no reservation and it was very crowded. Gil just took over and he was looming all over everything. The maître de was trying to see if we had reservations and Gil was doing this thing with his hands. He kept his hands moving so that the maître de couldn’t see his book and Gil would say, “I know we’re late, my boy. We missed our time, but maybe you could fit us in, my boy.” Hilarie: Over and over again! Joe: “My boy!” he was calling him and the maître de had no idea what to do so he gave us places! [laughter] It was amazing! I never figured out what he was doing. I think it was like Mandrake the Magician. He gestured hypnotically…

Amazing Spider-Man TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. The Prisoner and Jason Drum TM & © the respective copyright holders.

Bludd. Yes, I designed her. CBC: It just screamed you even though you were starting not to do much work for Charlton at the time. You were starting to drift into the Big Two. Joe: It’s odd. Countess Von Bludd does have her fans, too! I’ve had actually several requests for her as sketches at cons. I think there were possibilities with her. CBC: You teamed-up for a long time with the same artist you worked with on The Avengers, Sal Buscema. Joe: Yeah. The sequence is that I was working on The Avengers and then one month Hulk pages from Herb Trimpe showed up and I called in and said there’s a mistake and Len Wein, who was editing, said, “No. I decided to use you, so we’re sending you The Hulk now.” [laughter] Nobody told us! Unless I’m mistaken, I worked on Herb for about a year, not a real long time. Then Herb left and Sal was doing The Hulk. CBC: What was your rate? Was it better than $25? This page: Didja know that Joe Staton was a onetime assistant to Gil Kane? Joe: Yes. Here’s some breakdown examples… Hilarie: By the time you went to Marvel, you were getting enough for just inking and it was better than the Charlton rate, which was for pencil, inking, and lettering! CBC: How many could you ink in a day? Joe: Three pages a day. Hilarie: He could do three penciled pages a day. Joe: Or three inks. Except for Wheelie and the Chopper Bunch for which I could do… Hilarie: A story a day. CBC: Was this the first cartoony stuff you did? Joe: Yep. Hilarie: And it’s his mother’s favorite, too! Joe: She was always asking when was I gonna do the funny little cars again? But yeah, I guess I could do at least two, often three pages of inks a day. CBC: We’re back to Wheelie just for a second, because I guess that would directly lead — stylistically anyway — to Scooby-Doo. This is a different style for you to do. Were you a natural? Joe: Yeah, my default is what they call cartoony, but I like doing it all. Really, I just adapt to whatever the style of the story is. I did have to fight myself to keep from doing referred him or what everything cartoony. I like some of the stories to be straighter. And E-Man he knew about me. He was on the cusp between the two. just called up and said, CBC: Did you like drawing licensing books? “Do you wanna ink The Joe: Well, certainly the Batman Adventures and that sort of stuff I really Avengers?” enjoyed. CBC: So you didn’t have CBC: I’m glad you mentioned that. I liked Wheelie and the Chopper Bunch. feelers out there? Joe: Tom DeFalco wrote that. Every once in a while I’ll see Tom and I’ll ask, Joe: No, I think I was “Hey, when are we going back on Wheelie?” [laughs] just waiting for Charlton CBC: Your work was being published almost every month but it stops dead at December, ’73 and then starts up again June, ’74. Was that a crisis time for to get paper at that time. CBC: Did you have a you? plan in your mind that you Hilarie: That was when there was no paper. You weren’t working much. were going to hit the Big Joe: That would be the only thing I could think of. I think that would have been when I did The Gods of Mount Olympus. There was nothing from Charl- Two? You said that Charlton was a third tier. You ton at that time so, yeah, that must have been what it was. CBC: How did that come about? Did Johnny Achziger get in touch with you? certainly helped make it, at least, a second tier. Did Joe: Yeah. He just checked in with me to see if I’d be interested and at the you see an end plan that time there was nothing much going on so… yeah. It was something that you wanted to get better seemed like it could be fun. The Gods of Mount Olympus was the Greek rates? mythology. Just retelling the old stories in very, very large tabloid-size. Kind Joe: Yeah, I think most of before their time. I did three and I think John Workman did two or three everybody went on from after that. Charlton or retreated CBC: How was the experience? back to Charlton. Charlton Joe: To start with, it was real good. It was a lot of fun. As we went along, Charlton got more paper and I got busier again so it was hard to keep up with was good! They let you do all kinds of things. But yeah, I was always looking to get on the Top Two, trying to do any more of it. Eventually I had to drop out of it. I’m very happy but I don’t think I was really actively working toward it at that time. with the first issue and mostly with the second, but the third one had to be CBC: And fortuitously, they came to you. rushed. That one was a little rushed. Johnny did try! It was a good idea and Joe: Yeah. I don’t think I had actually gone in with anything lately. we gave it a good shot. CBC: So it really was just Roy calling you just really at an opportune time for Hilarie: I think you had seen people at the convention, but that’s about it. Remember that picture we found with you and Paul [Levitz], Marv [Wolfman], you? It was like, wow! Is that manna from heaven? Or Marvel from heaven? Len [Wein], and Nick, I think that’s from a Seuling Con. [laughter] CBC: Did you get feedback from pros and your peers with E-Man? Did it Joe: I guess it was. I never actually found out why he called me, who had Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

This page: Joe Staton switched addresses to the Windy City where he served an exhaustive stint as the First Comics art director in the early ’80s. Above is his promotional art; below is a quartet of titles the independent outfit offered. Unfortunately, as the writer was working for DC editorial at the time, Nick Cuti was unable to scribe much of First’s E-Man revival.

strike a chord with them? Did you get compliments on your artistry? Start developing fans among professionals? Hilarie: That is what Joe was talking about before, walking that line between cartoony and not cartoony. Different people saw E-Man as cartoony and that was not seen as a plus. [Joe laughs] CBC: Did you feel the pressure to push one style or another? Joe: Not on E-Man, of course, but when I eventually got to DC there was just a general feeling that I should not be so cartoony. CBC: Was that fine with you? Joe: Well, I have to admit, occasionally I do slip back into things being a little goofier than they should be. I do regret drawing Ch’p, the squirrel Green Lantern, quite like an animated cartoon. [laughs] Hilarie: I liked him, though. [laughter] CBC: And nowadays with Squirrel Girl! Joe: Yeah! That would be a good team-up! Ch’p and Squirrel Girl. CBC: At the same time you were inking The Incredible Hulk, you got some regular series at Charlton, right? Space: 1999, Emergency. Joe: Well, I did some covers there, for Emergency. I did a couple of issues of The Six Million Dollar Man. I did some painted covers for Charlton that were fun. Supposedly Pat Boyette had found a separator in Texas who would separate the painted covers for no more than it cost Charlton to do the colors on a regular cover, so they were letting us do painted covers. CBC: What did you think of the results?

Joe: The exposure seems odd, but sometimes they worked out pretty good. CBC: Was it fun to work in a different medium? Joe: Oh, yeah. I did like that. Certainly Don Newton did some great stuff… and Byrne did some nice stuff! CBC: You were able to do Mike Mauser in his own back-up series, then Karate Kid came along. Joe: With Karate Kid, I wasn’t doing any work for Charlton anymore. I just eventually phased that out. George Wildman and I tried to remember if I had I ever actually quit Charlton, and we couldn’t remember that I had ever actually quit, so I may have still been working there. You know, doing The Hulk and such, it just got harder and harder to fit in the Charlton stuff. The Marvel stuff paid so much more than Charlton. But doing The Hulk, I was feeling boxed in just inking and I was asking to do an occasional pencil job just to keep my hand in. I was feeling kind of frustrated with the Marvel stuff and then, out of the blue, Paul Levitz called up and said would I like to do some finishing for DC. It was by Ric Estrada. DC was having trouble keeping their deadlines and rather than having lots of finished pencils done, they were having Ric and, I guess, a few other people do very rough layouts and having different inkers finish up the drawings and fill them in. And that sounded good, so I went in to see Paul, we hit it off, and I was working for DC instead of Marvel. CBC: Was he just a kid? Hilarie: Paul? Yeah, he was barely outta high school! Joe: I wasn’t much older but, yeah, he was very young. Hilarie: Who did you do the Bruce Lee for? Was that Marvel? Joe: That was Marvel. That was Archie Goodwin. I worked for Archie on that and on a Batman Elseworlds at DC later. Archie was great. He did the black-&-white books. The Bruce Lee book was a special issue of Deadly Hands of Kung-Fu. And then I did pencils and somebody else did finishes for me on a couple of the regular issues of Kung-Fu, with the White Tiger. I did a couple issues. Oh, and Harmony Killdragon! That is the only character that I have a creator’s credit on at Marvel so we are waiting for the big Harmony Killdragon movie! CBC: Things can happen! Joe: If it can happen to Rocket Raccoon, it can happen to Harmony Killdragon! CBC: Why not!? And what a cool name! Joe: It is a great name! [laughs] CBC: Did Paul say, “I like your work”? Joe: Yeah, and he said that he had heard that I kept deadlines! So that was a plus. And when I went in to see Paul, Sol Harrison was there and he took me aside and showed me Terry Austin’s backgrounds of the Muhammad Ali book and said, “This is how you do backgrounds.” So anyway, that

All characters TM & © the respective copyright holders.

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E-Man and characters TM & © Joe T. Staton.

was my direction. Paul wanted me to keep deadlines and Sol wanted me to do backgrounds — complicated backgrounds. CBC: Those are quite intricate backgrounds! Hilarie: Yeah! [laughs] CBC: Terry did a beautiful job. Actually, Neal raves about them to this day. Joe: Yeah? CBC: Listen, just getting back to Gil for a second, can you identify which stories you did? Joe: Amazing Spider-Man #150, an anniversary issue where all of Spider-Man’s villains fought him. I remember it as being like the best Marvel style script I had ever seen. Each paragraph was a page, each sentence a panel. I wish I’d copied it. It was just a fill-in but it was absolutely perfect! I have no idea what the Conan was and Ghost Rider… and odds and ends of other things. CBC: Have you done backgrounds for any other artist? Joe: No, just for Gil. CBC: Sounded like you were doing a switch with the Ric Estrada stuff. You were doing the finishes. Were you just as comfortable doing that as that? Joe: Yes, I liked doing it all. I liked the option of switching back and forth, one thing to another. On Ric’s layouts, the drawing was basic. It was solid. But there was certainly no blacks, no shading… CBC: And you had to make up the backgrounds or what? Joe: Yes, a lot of this was he’d draw shoe-box sorts of things for the backgrounds. A big rectangular blank spot and since a lot of it took place in cities, I had to figure that out. CBC: You had to be Tony Mortellaro! Joe: [Laughs] Yeah, but I liked his stuff. CBC: You were doing that while Wallace Wood was doing the same thing on All-Star Comics. Joe: With Power Girl, right. CBC: Did you have any affinity for the DC characters? Joe: Oh, yeah, I’m basically a Julie Schwartz fan, DC’s science fiction type style. Basically old Alex Toth, Sy Barry, Gil… You know. That sort of thing. Old Gil Kane. CBC: The All-Star Western stuff? Joe: Yeah, sure! Hopalong Cassidy and “Johnny Thunder.” That’s kind of really my favorite reference. Especially Green Lantern. I always had a lot of affinity for Green Lantern. I had this line that I was a Green Lantern fan before there was a Green Lantern because Green Lantern was the perfect Julie Schwartz science fiction character, so I just felt like that was my character, that he had just been waiting for me. CBC: What made him the best? Joe: Just that kind of Julie Schwartz science fiction — the space stuff and the weird little inventions and stuff like that, the spaceships. There was a feeling to Julie’s science fiction that I liked, always. CBC: I’m still not that familiar with the Green Lantern stuff. The Green Lantern Corps? Was that always a part of the milieu or was it just rather vague and not really exploited. Joe: It was kind of vague. It was always there. CBC: From the origin, right? He was another… Joe: Yeah, there were other Green Lanterns and Hal was recruited on the spot. You didn’t actually meet the Corps until the third or fourth issue or something like that when he was called… His energy double was called into space to take part in some crisis on another planet. That’s when he started meeting aliens, but he didn’t meet the little blue guys, the Guardians, for a while. I think he had to meet some of the other Green Lanterns and then he met the Guardians. It was kind of unrolled a bit at a time. CBC: Was this all John Broome? Joe: Yes, John Broome and Gil. CBC: Strange Adventures and Mystery In Space. Great stuff. So there were co-stars and cameos by other Green Lanterns throughout the series in the ’60s, were there? I don’t seem to recall them very much. Joe: Well they introduced Katma Tui and the guy with the wings. Medphyll, the plant Green Lantern. They introduced Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

a few and they were kind of always there, but really the concept of the Corps wasn’t really exploited until the Green Lantern Corps mini-series that Mike Barr wrote and Len… CBC: That was in the ’80s, right? Joe: Yeah, so it really took a while. And then, of course, Steve Englehart really developed it after that. It’s kind of been a long time in the coming, really being fleshed out. CBC: What did you think of the Denny O’Neil/Neal Adams take, saying something about the relevancy of today’s society and the inequity? Joe: I was really impressed by it at the time. In retrospect, it seems a little overdone. For what they were doing at the time, it really stood out. I liked it. CBC: You didn’t think it was too divergent from the themes that were developed by Broome? Joe: I think there was room for it in what had gone before because Green Lantern could be on Earth, he can be in space. There are lots of possibilities with the Green Lantern characters. CBC: Do you recall the implosion that took place at DC? Joe: [Laughs] I was there that day! My nephew Timothy was visiting and we were down at the DC. My sister was with us. Al Milgrom was editing Batman Family and he needed to show somebody a pose that Bat-Mite would take and for some reason he saw us out in the hall and he picked up my nephew and started running up and down the hall with him to show what pose he wanted for Bat-Mite! This page: Joe Staton’s signature character, E-Man, served a First Comics mascot at times. Note the subscription ad art by Bruce Patterson at right. Alec Tronn & pals roll the Chicago Lakefront during the First era.

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All characters TM & © DC Comics.

CBC: How old was Timothy? Hilarie: Three or four. Joe: There was some big meeting going on at the time and Jenette’s… What was Jenette’s secretary’s name? Hilarie: I don’t remember. Joe: Anyway, she stuck her head out and yelled, “Would you people please be quiet out there? We’re deciding the fate of the company in here!!” So that was the day they decided that the implosion was coming down. CBC: Do you have any idea around what day that was? Was it in the winter? Joe: Oh, golly… Hilarie: No, it was probably Spring or Summer, 1978. CBC: What do you account for the implosion? Joe: I don’t know. I just know they were about to do lots of things including a Huntress book and all of a sudden they weren’t doing a lot of things so… suddenly things I was counting on they weren’t doing. CBC: How do you assess it to this day? What do you think it was? Too many books? “Implosion.” That implies that there was an “explosion” at one time. Joe: I would just be guessing. I don’t really have information, but I would guess there was just too much product out there at the time between DC and Marvel. I’m sure there were other considerations with distribution and other stuff that I didn’t know about. CBC: Did it feel bad? Were you looking forward to a Huntress book? Joe: Yeah. That would have been cool. CBC: How did that character come about? Joe: I was doing All-Star and Bob Layton was inking it. Bob was saying we needed another female for Power Girl to relate to, to talk to, to hang out with around headquarters. Paul picked up on that and eventually — actually, with input from Tony Tollin, who was the colorist who had really good ideas — came up with the idea of Batman’s daughter taking Batgirl’s place in the Earth 2 universe. So he worked out that idea and I did the designs with Joe Orlando punching in on that. CBC: What did Joe add to it? Joe: Mostly he made her more bat-like. He may have made the mask or he made the scalloped Batman cape. I’m pretty sure I didn’t have that to start with. Just little touches. In one version or another, she’s had staying power. CBC: Who is she and what does she do? Joe: She’s on Earth 2, she was Batman’s daughter. She was Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle’s daughter, after they were married in Earth 2, and she took over for the family. CBC: How old was she when she first got introduced? Was she a teenager or early 20s? Joe: She was a lawyer so she would have been mid-20s anyway. She would have been through grad school. CBC: And she and Power Girl did indeed get along? Joe: Yeah, we did a bunch of short stories that were team-ups in the back of Wonder Woman for a while with her and Power Girl. Sometimes with Huntress on her own, sometimes with Power Girl. Actually, I was just recently telling somebody at a con that when I would draw Power Girl and the Huntress, I was thinking of a team-up between Joey Heatherton and Katherine Ross and — this being somebody young I was talking to — they looked at me blankly and wondered who they were. [laughs] So the Huntress has outlived her inspirations. CBC: You did “The Untold Origin of the Justice Society.” I love that story. You did a great job with that. Joe: Thank you. CBC: Did you take a shine to the JSA? Joe: Oh, I love the JSA. I had seen reprints of some of those characters in reprint books. So I’d seen a lot of those characters and was really into ’em. I liked the idea that they were the characters we know but slightly different. The whole alternate earth thing, I always liked that. So, yeah. I really, really liked those characters. CBC: And you also did Metal Men. Joe: I did do a bit of Metal Men. CBC: Who wrote that? Joe: Marty Pasko. And I regret that we never got to do the last issue that he was planning. I don’t know the story at all, but the title was “Beneath the Planet of the Ducks.” [laughter] CBC: You continued to work for DC after the implosion? Joe: Yeah, Marvel had work for a bunch of people. I had stuff still going on at DC, so I stayed at DC. I was still getting work there. CBC: Just jumping back a little about the demise of E-Man. Was that disappointing? Joe: It was, yeah, but at the time I didn’t realize what a watershed it was. I’d just been doing stuff for a while so I figured, that one’s gone. I’ll do something else. I didn’t realize what a loss it was that E-Man was canceled then. Hilarie: Or that it would keep coming back! CBC: To what do you attribute that it keeps coming back? Joe: [Laughs] Like you said, he’s charming! There’s not that many charming characters. CBC: If that’s on your epitaph, is that cool with you? Joe: That’ll do it. I have tried to outlive E-Man and tried to redefine myself, but it never quite takes so… we’ll go with E-Man. CBC: It’s nice that you and Nick are continually and always involved in the character over

All characters TM & © DC Comics.

the years. Marty Pasko wrote it for a little while, but you’re always associated with the character. It’s a threesome… or foursome. I don’t know. Joe: Well, it’s a three and a half-some if you count Teddy. [laughter] The core crew of E-Man is E-Man, Nova, Mauser, and Teddy. CBC: I’m sorry I jumped over Teddy. [Hilarie laughs] I’m always forgetting he was a part of the original run, wasn’t he? I’m always thinking he was part of the First Comics’ run. Joe: He was. He got stranger later. CBC: What was he? Hilarie: A koala bear! Joe: He’s a koala bear. Samuel Boar, the evil energy czar, had found that there’s a small ball of sun-like energy inside the earth and he was going to capture it and steal it and sell it as a power source. He had a henchman who was an Australian who had a koala bear and… [laughs] And during the course of that adventure, which is where Nova became a super-hero or super-heroine or whatever she is, Teddy was acquired by E-Man and Nova. The henchman I guess was sent off to prison, but they took custody of the koala. He’s been with Nova ever since. [Jon and Hilarie laugh] You two don’t seem to be taking this totally seriously. CBC: I’m so sorry. He certainly was a cute little fella. [laughs] You know Mike Mauser was enough, but then she’s a super-hero, and why don’t you throw in a koala bear? It just added that Jack Cole kind of wackiness. It may not be Woozy Winks but… along the same path. Were you gonna keep him? Was there any reaction to that story? We’re gonna keep him around? Did you like drawing him? Joe: Yeah. CBC: [To Hilarie] Did you like him? Hilarie: Yes, I did. In the whole first E-Man run, Joe was known for what he put in the backgrounds so, if they didn’t plan to keep him, he ended up in the backgrounds anyway, so he got kept. Joe: That’s right. I forget which one it was. There was one issue of E-Man where we totally forgot Teddy. Teddy was not in the story at all and I went back and had him sitting in a chair in Mauser’s office without explanation. He was sitting listening or something! [laughs] Teddy’s part of the crew. CBC: You said he got stranger in the First years. What made him strange? Joe: I think Teddy is totally blissed-out forever. He’s at one with the Universe. Very happy. He’s prone to break into dancing without explanation. He doesn’t sing, but he dances. CBC: You were stalwart with DC there for a while. Joe: I was. I was kind of drawing everything there for a while. I did some Superboy. Hilarie: When he did Superboy… talk about going back to his roots. We went back to visit his mother and we got his old high school yearbooks! So he could have reference on what people in a small town of that time period looked like. Joe: My version of Superboy was kind of retro. It had a ’50s look. It was when the Kents had their store in town. In the Kents’ store they had a rack of comic books, that sort of thing. CBC: Who was writing it? Joe: Tom DeFalco wrote several of them. I think he was… CBC: Is that where he started off his professional career? At DC the late ’70s? I don’t remember his name before that. Joe: I don’t know. Hilarie: You said he wrote Wheelie. Joe: Oh, yeah. He was writing the Wheelies at Charlton, so he was around before then. We did one really cool Superboy story that brought back a teenage wizard from an old story, That was fun. CBC: Did you collaborate with Paul or did you just get a full script? Did you just say, “Hey. I’d like to do this?” Joe: It was more a question of “Hey, I’d like to do this.” I was around the DC offices a lot in those days. Paul Kupperberg, Marty Pasko, would have something up and I’d say, “Oh! I’d like to do that!” You know. That’s why I seemed to be Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

the main artist on Showcase or something like that. Something kept on coming up that sounded like… “Oh! We’re going to do Showcase #100 with everybody who’s ever been in Showcase.” “Oh! I’d like to do that!” CBC: Did you sometimes get overwhelmed? Were you good at saying no at the right times? Joe: Not so good at saying no at the right times. [laughs] Mostly I would say yes too much and then wind up sleeping too little. It kind of wore you down over time, I guess. CBC: [To Hilarie] Did you see much of him? Hilarie: No, not at all. We did very little traveling at that point. I was teaching, so I was in the schools all day. No, we didn’t see a whole lot of each other. Joe: We just kind of waved at each other. [laughs] CBC: Did you tell him, “You’re working too hard”? Hilarie: Oh, everybody told him that. He was a workaholic, always has been. That was not anything new. He was working on things he liked. Joe: That was the trouble. I did like it. I really enjoyed doing it. Hilarie: And he was perfectly happy. There wasn’t any major changes that were in the offing. CBC: [Laughs] You and he both always working all the time… to this day! Joe: I work less now than I used to. I very seldom work ’til way in the morning these days. Hilarie: That’s true. CBC: You had a reputation for pulling through, getting the job done. Was that a source of pride for you? Joe: I think it was. Sometimes it worked against me, but I think I was pleased that people know that I would get things done. CBC: The database says you did a job for 2000AD? Joe: Oh, yes, right. I did one story in 1979 for 2000AD. It was called “Black Hawk.” It was about a black slave taken into space to fight a gladiator. We were visiting Brian Bolland. I’d met all the guys up at 2000AD and because I was there, they gave me an assignment. So I did that one. I was thrilled to do it. It seemed very cool. They paid me well. CBC: What’s your relationship with Brian Bolland? Joe: Brian is a real good pal, for a long, long time. We hit it off with Brian and Rachel immediately. Hilarie: Immediately! We had

Above: Teamed with writer Steve Englehart, Joe Staton made a considerable contribution to the Green Lantern mythos, as they developed Guy Gardner and created such characters as Ch’p and Kilowog during their ’80s tenure.

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who’d like to do some Green Lantern covers.” And Jack knew Brian’s work very well from 2000AD and he says, ‘Okay! Great! Here’s what we need.” CBC: That was Brian’s first American work? Hilarie: Yes. CBC: Who do you think is your best inker? Joe: My best inker is Horacio Ottolini, who inked a Femme Noir story and also the Batman Elseworlds story, Citizen Wayne. Archie Goodwin put us together. Archie had samples from Horacio and saw that we would go very well together, so I did my Batman Elseworlds story, which I really liked and thought I did a good job on, and then Horacio just found things in there that I would never have thought to finish off or add mood or lighting, or… CBC: A true embellisher! Hilarie: Yes! Joe: A real collaborator! And then strangely enough, when I was on Scooby, Horacio was working in the studio that was doing Scooby in Argentina, so he wound up inking a lot of my Scooby-Doo stories and he did wonderful, wonderful Scooby-Doo inks. CBC: You had to send ’em all the way down to Argentina? Joe: Well, DC did. CBC: Did you ever meet him? Joe: I have never met him. CBC: Do you communicate with him? Joe: Yes, we’ve had conversations. His daughter speaks English, translates for him, and now there are functions online we can more or less translate. CBC: Other favorites? Joe: Always liked Bruce Patterson’s stuff on Green Lantern. Andrew Pepoy inked a lot of my Scoobys. I liked those. CBC: How do you like your own inks? The best? Joe: No, I like Horacio’s best. CBC: Better than you? Joe: Yes, much better than me. There were a few jobs that Dick Giordano did that really stand out. One job that really stands out — just the one time — was a Brave and the Bold issue called “The Autobiography of Bruce Wayne,” which was the story of how Bruce and Catwoman fell in love. They were married in that story. That was inked by George Freeman. CBC: And it’s beautiful work. You did the old-time Batmobile in that, too. Did not Alan Brennert write that story? Hilarie: Yes. gone to England during the summer. We wanted to go to science fiction [fandom]’s Worldcon in Brighton and that was CBC: Let’s talk about Alan a little bit. What do you think of at Labor Day. We wanted to go early, so Joe found a comics’ him as a writer? Joe: They don’t come any better! convention in London and it was six weeks earlier. So we CBC: Did you ever meet him? went early and Joe needed someplace to draw. Joe: Oh. Yeah. We’ve met several times. Joe: Paul Levitz knew Richard Burton, the writer, who Hilarie: He’s a very nice guy. was working at Marvel UK when we were talking about the CBC: I have exchanged emails with him. He seems quite fact I needed somewhere to work. So Paul checked in with grateful for your work. Richard and Richard said there was a spot I could sit and draw at Marvel UK while I was there. But I think Richard left Joe: Oh! I did two stories that Alan wrote. A lot of people know that one, “The Autobiography of Bruce Wayne.” Marvel UK before we got there. So I had nowhere to work, George Freeman inked it and I think it’s great. It gets rebut Richard knew that Brian’s wife Rachel was going to be printed a lot. I also did a Secret Origin of The Black Canary working on a project outside the apartment for a whole so that Dick Giordano inked and nobody knows that one. It’s her table was empty. So he set it up for me to go over to in the last issue of Secret Origins and never gets reprinted Brian’s flat during the day and draw and Hilarie was going because it’s not in continuity anymore. But it’s just such a off finding tours and seeing the country. So I would sit back to back with Brian and he would draw and I would draw and beautiful human story. CBC: Alan wrote it? we would talk back and forth. Joe: Yeah. Alan did a really nice Batman story Dave CBC: Who’s Rachel? Gibbons did. I didn’t do it but Dave Gibbons did. So that was Joe: Rachel is Brian Bolland’s wife and she was a fabric really nice. Whatever Alan does, it’s always the best of designer. whatever it is. CBC: And she had an art table? Joe: Yeah, she had an art table and Richard found out that I CBC: Didn’t you also do another Brave and the Bold story? could use her table while we were in England. So that’s how Joe: I did a Brave and the Bold story that was Batman and Plastic Man that Jim Aparo finished. we met Brian and Rachel. CBC: Now there’s a mix! Hilarie: When we went, Joe had a job to do. Joe: Which worked very well. It’s more Jim Aparo than it is Joe: I was probably still on Green Lantern. I think that’s me, but it looks really nice. when I called back to the states and Jack Harris was the CBC: That’s very interesting. What’s the biggest surprise editor. I told Jack, “I’m sitting her with this guy in England

inks you’ve gotten that you may not have imagined would have worked? Joe: Oh! Bill Sienkiewicz. It was for the campaign against land mines that Jenette Kahn was involved with. It was a Denny O’Neil script about children being harmed by land mines. Bill Sienkiewicz inked it and I don’t think he really changed anything, but it looks completely different and it’s really brilliant. It’s a really nice job. Very moody, very Batman-y. It’s great stuff. Hilarie: It’s a really affecting story. A really strong piece. Joe: There’s one page in there that I think is really one of the best things I’ve ever done, where Batman finds a child who’s been killed by a land mine and he digs her grave with his hands. It’s a beautiful thing. And you know, Bill can do all that stuff and it just works real well. And there’s a picture of Batman coming out of a burning jeep holding an automatic weapon. He’s not firing it because he’s Batman but it looks really great! And I had no idea that’s how it would turn out. CBC: Was this a one-shot? Joe: Yes. Hilarie: They put a copy of that on every Senator’s table in Congress. Joe: Senator Leahy is a big Batman fan. CBC: Do you see a check from either of the publishers for previously published stuff? Are they fair to you? Joe: With a few notable exceptions, they’re very fair to me. We occasionally get a check from Marvel for… I have no idea what. They reprint everything they’ve ever done, so they reprint my one vampire story and I get a check for it. [Jon laughs] From DC, I get fairly decent checks fairly often because they licensed Killowog and the Huntress. There’s a lot of Huntress licensing. CBC: Did Paul make sure you got a piece of that action? Was Paul looking out for you? Joe: He was definitely looking out for me as long as he was there. And their bookkeeping is still pretty good. Hilarie: And when Paul would find a Huntress toy, he’d get one for himself and one for Joe and send it on. Joe: Yeah, DC’s very good on that. CBC: Are you friends with Paul? Joe: Oh, yes. Been friends with him I guess since I went up to see him that day he called me in. CBC: Then you became associated with Green Lantern. Joe: Yeah, I had two runs on Green Lantern. The first run was with Marv Wolfman. And then there was the Tales of the Green Lantern Corps mini-series. And then I came back on it and Steve Englehart was writing it. CBC: Good writers! Joe: I have worked with some really good writers. A good bunch. CBC: And you co-created Killowog with who? Joe: That was with Steve Englehart. Steve was pulling in a lot of characters established from the Green Lantern Corps. He was getting a lot of characters into the story and he created a whole bunch of new ones all at once! That was a lot of fun, just coming up with new designs for whatever he would come up with. CBC: What did he give you as a description and what did you do with it? Do you remember anything specifically? Joe: Well, he never gave real specific directions. Just said what kind of character it was. CBC: So was this like a big Hulk-like character? Joe: Yeah, Killowog is a big guy, but he really has a heart of gold. Seems really rough, but I wound up thinking he was like a big Ernest Borgnine or something. That’s the way I think of Killowog. He had a character called Driq from Krykk, something like that, and he was a dead Green Lantern. He’d been killed in action, but his ring wouldn’t admit it. He was an animated corpse with a brain. He had a plant Green Lantern. Because plants didn’t live long, the Green Lantern carried more seeds in a little bag and every day he replanted himself in a bag of dirt, so the next day he was fresh. He was the same Green Lantern, but he was new! Steve is all kinds of Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

crazy. CBC: [Looking at database] There’s plenty of Wonder Woman. You’ve got quite a list here, pal. Joe: I have done a little bit of everything. CBC: Any idea of how many pages you’ve done. Joe: Golly. Thousands. [Jon laughs] It would be pretty close to impossible to say. CBC: I don’t know about impossible. This is the age of the Internet. Joe: So many were full books. The Charlton E-Mans were 16 pages, the Green Lanterns — some of them were 17. A lot of the books were 22. A lot of the Scooby stories were either 8 or 10. So it’s all over the place. I can’t give you a number. CBC: Tens of thousands would be fair? Joe: I would think. I think at some point I checked and I had about 1,200 credits so if you think that would be an average of at least 15 pages… 15 x 1200, something like that. Hilarie: About 18,000. Joe: [Laughs] Oh! So figure if that’s an overestimate, 15,000. Hilarie: I would say it’s probably an under-estimate because there’s plenty of stuff you did with all the licensing that’s not there. CBC: First Comics! So, in 1983, you started a revival of E-Man! Joe: Mm-hm. CBC: How’d that come about? Did you know Rick Obadiah?

This spread: Artist Staton has also had an impact on the Batman legend, whether his work with writer Alan Brennert, or with inkers George Freeman (The Brave and the Bold #197 [Apr. ’83]), Bill Sienkiewicz (Death of Innocents [Dec. ’96]) or — Joe’s personal favorite embellisher — Horacio Ottolini (Citizen Wayne [’94])

This spread: Then came the Big Dog! Staton was a regular penciler on Scooby-Doo for many years at DC. The artist was no stranger to cartoony stuff, as he worked on Wheelie at Charlton.

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Joe: Yes, but actually I got into that by way of Mike Gold. I knew Mike from when he was up at DC. He was their PR man. Actually, for Mike Gold, I did ads for the coming DC Explosion! Full-page ads with all the characters who were going to get their own books or backups, but then came the implosion… So, I knew Mike and Mike was involved with all these other people in Chicago, Rick Obadiah and Rick Oliver, a whole bunch of folks out there. So he recruited me to go to and work for First, to do a book and to be the art director. We moved to Chicago for three years. CBC: What was the salary? Joe: At the time, just to start out with it seemed okay. Hilarie: It was half-time salary. Joe: Yeah, I was supposed to be in the office half-time. CBC: Ah! “Supposed to be.” That portends… Hilarie: No way to start a company. Joe: [Laughs] So I definitely wound up full-time in the office and full-time drawing so and storyboarding for McCann Erickson… I was doing several full-time jobs all the time I was out there. CBC: [To Hilarie] So you just quit your job?

Hilarie: Yeah, I had already decided that my teaching was going nowhere in the district and I wasn’t quite sure what I wanted to do. Then I took a class in writing for children. I was really intrigued with educational publishing; there’s a lot of that in the Chicago area! So I thought this would be a good time to take a break from teaching. I took a leave of absence and we rented our house out and moved to Chicago. While we were in Chicago, two things happened. One is I reignited my love for history and began working at the Chicago Historical Society, first as a docent and then as a consultant doing children’s programming… and I got involved with educational writing publishers! So that was how I got started. CBC: It was fortuitous! Joe: My thinking was First Comics is a start-up. It might work. This is your shot. You have to try it. CBC: It worked for a while, right? Joe: Yeah. CBC: Do you know what became of Rick Obadiah? Hilarie: He just saw him! Joe: Yes, Rick is now very prosperous, importing coffins! Every once in a while he’d just call out of the blue, say hi. We love him. We coulda killed him many times, but we… [laughter] I used to love going to shows with Obadiah. It was fun. CBC: Was Nick working at DC at the time? Joe: Yeah, Nick was at DC. CBC: Is that why he didn’t write the reboot? He was on staff at DC. Joe: He was caught in a very bad bind. When E-Man came back, he had to decide to go with a startup and do his character or stick with his situation at DC and figure out what was gonna work there. He was married and he had a kid, so he had obligations. CBC: That must have been disappointing. Joe: Yeah. For all of us. CBC: Was the plan that he could write it while he was working at DC? Joe: I guess it was, but in retrospect that doesn’t seem like a really good idea. And toward the end, they told him at DC to go ahead and write E-Man. I guess it was clear to DC that First wasn’t really going to be a competitor in the long run, so they told him go ahead. So he did get to write the last couple issues of the First run of E-Man. CBC: While he was still at DC? Joe: Yeah, and they were both really good. One was the secret origin of Michael Mauser. It was a real good story. The other was E-Man in the South Seas, which was a nice story. CBC: How was working with Marty? What was his take on the character? Did it work? Joe: I’d have to say over the long run, no, it didn’t work. Marty is kind of a cerebral plotter. He thinks things out maybe a little too much, and Nick’s writing was always kind of seat of pants! It was just kind of go into it and go for the story. CBC: A story for story’s sake maybe? And Marty saw it as long segments of a larger tale? Joe: Yes. Marty had a very specific taste. Marty’s a really funny guy. Didn’t quite work on E-Man, but he really gave it a good shot. I think there were around 20 First issues. Mike Barr and Paul Kupperberg each did fill-ins. Hilarie: And we did fill-ins! Joe: And we did a fill-in. It was just credited to me because when we lost Marty, we just decided we weren’t going to recruit another writer. We were just gonna do it in-house and, since I was attached to it, my name would be on it. Sometimes what would happen, at the office we would come in with different ideas… Like when Bruce Patterson or sometimes Rick Oliver, who was the assistant editor… We’d kind of throw everything together and see if we could come up with a plotline for the issue and I would take it home and draw it out. Sometimes Hilarie would write dialogue for it. Hilarie: Yeah, I’d be the dialoguer. Joe: She’s good at dialoguing. So it was very much a group effort. We did that until Nick was available again.

CBC: And then it just didn’t last long? Joe: No. CBC: Did the capital investment run out or was it just that the other books couldn’t carry it? Did it break even? Was it the right book for the right time? Joe: I don’t think so, no. Hilarie: And by the time it was close to being done — or maybe done — we were moving back from Chicago. Hilarie: [To Joe] And you were doing the Classics Illustrated? Joe: Oh, right, For First. I did Classics Illustrated for them. I did a really nice Christmas Carol for them, and I was working on an adaptation of Candide when they shut down. CBC: Do you still have any of those pages? Joe: Actually, I still have all those pages. I would like to finish Candide someday. That would be fun. CBC: Overall, how do you look at the First experience? Joe: I lived through it. It was very tough. It was very hard. CBC: It was very important for them to get out on a monthly schedule, wasn’t it? Joe: Yes. CBC: In retrospect, was that necessary? I mean, it is the direct market. They could skip a month, right? Boy, you guys were coming out every single month. Joe: Yeah, that was a priority to show everybody that we were a professional outfit. It was not that common to have other comic book companies at that time. Our plan was to look like a competitor… not so much Marvel but DC. It seemed like the sensibilities at First were never really opposed to Marvel, but they would go up against DC. They saw that as their competition. CBC: Well, you have to hand it to ’em. The First books, they were really clean, they looked good, Howard was giving it his all in American Flagg! Joe: He was, yeah. Grell was doing great stuff on Jon Sable. Hilarie: Then Steve Rude came in and did Nexus. CBC: Were you happy at all? Joe: Was I happy? Well, to start with I was very enthusiastic. I thought I could hold it together. It did take a toll. Toward the end, I was the walking wounded. I had to leave Chicago and come back here. I’m proud I lived through it. In comics, that’s my only office job. Hilarie: He won’t necessarily say he’s proud of it, but I’m proud of him for it. And that is that he brought new talent in that’s still here and working hard and doing incredible stuff: Rick Burchett, Tim Truman, and all those guys that were working in some form of art, but Joe gave ’em a chance to do comics and got really involved. They still credit him with getting them into the business. CBC: Would you ever do it again? Joe: [Pauses] I hate to say that because I’m prone to lapses of memory and lapses in judgment, so it might occur to me someday, “Oh, yeah. I can do that.” [laughter] But, if I’m in my right mind, probably not. No. CBC: Was it realistic? Could it have been done on a smaller scale? Maybe a slower build? I mean, what did they come out with — four titles? Five titles? Joe: I think we started with four titles. Warp, E-Man, Sable, and American Flagg! Those were all good titles. They lasted. CBC: But then they spun off and did specials. There was The Original E-Man; there were all sorts of other things that were taking place. But you guys sold well, right? Joe: For the start we definitely did. I guess in the long run, we didn’t sell enough. CBC: What do you think it was? Competition? You guys seemed to have consistent quality work. Joe: No, it was definitely competition. There was so much stuff out there. That’s when Marvel and DC started paying royalties and we had to compete with that. That’s what it was. Our original business plan didn’t really allow for paying royalties. CBC: We don’t have to name names here but were there Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

people who said, “Listen. These guys are doing it. You guys gotta do it?” You had some creator-owned books. Joe: They were saying it. That was in the mix. I’m sure that had a lot to do with it. CBC: This is back in the day but you’re talking some pretty good numbers for the books, right? Did you have any 100,000 sellers? Joe: To start with, yeah. I think we leveled out around 30,000, which would be a beautiful run these days! CBC: Do you consider the E-Man run at First part of the canon? Joe: It is but since Nick has come back writing it, he’s done… [laughs] Like Doctor Who says, “timeywimey” things. There have been changes to the timeline so that some things that happened at First didn’t actually happen… which is to say that some things that Nick didn’t write didn’t happen! Which means you don’t have to read the whole First run. [chuckles] There are some things that we did at First, particularly things that had my name on it, that I really liked. Big Al, the alligator crime boss.

Above: In addition to regular licensed titles, Joe Staton also did work for DC’s Special Projects department, including this Batman animated-style ad promoting Claritin allergy medicine.

This spread: Joe Staton is now living the dream, drawing his beloved Dick Tracy daily newspaper strip, teamed with Mike Curtis! One of the detective’s recent adventures had him solving the mysterious disappearance of Little Orphan Annie!

control of this? Is he your baby and you don’t really want to see him in the hands of other people? Or are you pragmatic about it? Joe: It’s not like I’m specifically trying to control things. It’s just how things are. We wanted to mention that if anybody’s reading this that E-Man would be a really great property to film! At one point, before the super-hero boom, Roger Corman was interested in picking up E-Man. It would have been a lower budget operation and he had some changes in mind. He was going to move Nova to Las Vegas and she would be part of the chorus line at a club. That would have worked! I don’t see any reason it wouldn’t. But before he actually got to the point of making the deal, he went to a film festival in Germany and he talked to people at the festival and they said, “There’s no future in doing these super-hero movies, so forget it!” [Jon laughs] So he backed out of it and that never happened. I guess that’s as close as E-Man’s ever come to being a proper movie. CBC: So far! Since we’re plugging, you have this set of characters: you have the innocent super-hero, the stripper with a brain and a heart of gold, the tough, rat-like detective, a dancing koala bear, and a whole set of villains! Hilarie: Many topical! Joe: Certainly Samuel Boar is still a topical character. We have the Entropy Twins, Mad Wax, and so on. A whole bunch of villains. One thing we worked on at First with E-Man was to see E-Man as the only super-hero who was the sidekick in his own book. The Adventures of Michael Mauser, starring E-Man! It could actually make a very goof lighthearted police procedural week-to-week with a super-hero sidekick! Lots of good visuals. E-Man really should be filmed or on TV! CBC: Did we talk in depth about Nova? About her personality? How strong she is? I would think she would be a great role for an actress to express individuality, control of the situation, and still be provocative. Joe: Actually you do wind up with a tough detective and a super-hero, and the one in charge is the stripper. CBC: She’s not just a stripper! She’s got multiple majors. Archaeology, geology! Joe: She’s at least a grad student by now! So she’s educated. Hilarie: She’s smart! Not just educated. CBC: She’s smart, she’s self-reliant. She’s living on her own in the very beginning. Joe: I’d love to be acquainted with Nova. CBC: Heck, yeah! When you get these guys, “Hey, I love that Nova!” It’s not just a lusty thing, but it’s like, “Yeah. This is a really dynamite personality.” As much as I want Wonder Woman to be like that, she’s not always. They try to do it and then they slip off into different personifications. But Nova’s always been tough and she’s soft, all at the same time! Just remarkable… Is it a testament to Nick? Nick’s comfortable with women, is he? Joe: Yeah. Hilarie: Yes. Very! CBC: I mean, that’s not always true of a lot of comic book greats. [Joe laughs] He knows how to depict females in comics, right? Not #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

I do believe Big Al is part of canon. [laughter] Teddy was in the original run, so he’s still there. And Marty had a great character called Mad Wax! He could change shapes. It’s just a great name. I love it! [laughs] CBC: Has DC or Marvel ever approached you guys about E-Man? Joe: At one point, there were kind of second-hand feelers that DC might want to pick up E-Man to be part of the Charlton purchase, but nothing ever came of it. CBC: Dick Giordano was a friend of yours, right? Did you ever say, “Hey! Check this out!” Or did you want to maintain control of your character? Joe: It just never happened. I know when Nick was still on staff at DC, he had approached them. I guess he talked to them about picking up E-Man from First. Nick had an idea for the Rubber Band: E-Man, Plastic Man, the Elongated Man, and Metamorpho! All the shape-shifters an they would be the Rubber Band. That woulda been cool! CBC: Except who’s the comic foil? Joe: Hey, they’re all comic foils! [Hilarie laughs] That’s when they team-up with the Inferior Five, right? Just so the could have comic foils. But DC didn’t go for it. It just never happened. CBC: Do you want to, in our heart of hearts, maintain

disreputable but, you know, sexy! Joe: Nova’s definitely sexy. CBC: Unapologetically so. And you recently did a collection of the Charlton material that’s currently still for sale? Joe: Yes. We’re going to have to get you to put up the First Comics link. It can actually be bought on their website. We do have hopes of wider distribution soon. The collection is all the Charlton issues and some other stories that were published in a Charlton fanzine. It’s a good collection. CBC: And who wrote the intro? [Joe and Hilarie laugh] Joe: Some guy. Some derelict! [laughs] CBC: Yeah, I guess we’ve been associated a long time, come to think of it now, with the Charlton issue of Comic Book Artist. Joe: That’s right. And if you came to see me at a Seuling Con, that association has been quite a long time. CBC: I just remember Nick with his giant afro and George kind of standing back, “What is all this?” [Joe laughs] But Nick was right into it! “Hey, kids! Let’s put on a show!” This kind of, “You!” Joe: That’s funny. When we first had copies of the collection in San Diego three years ago, I was at the table with Nick and we were signing copies. I was being pleasant, I was signing things. And Nick was grabbing people in the aisle, “Look at this! We’ve got it all, so come on!” Right now Nick is pushing a character called Moonie, which is in the vein of Barbarella. It’s a very sexy space opera. Nick is always promoting a project… CBC: Captain Cosmos! “Wanna invest in a movie?” [Joe laughs] Joe: One of these days, Nick will hit it big, you know? CBC: You teamed up Mike Mauser with Max Allan Collins’ Ms. Tree. Was that your first encounter with Max? Max is in Chicago, right? Joe: Well, he’s in Muscatine, Iowa, not far. But Max and Mike Gold had dealings for a long time. So Mike brought Max in with Ms. Tree. Max and I talked about, at some point, having me taking over Dick Tracy. The way we did the Mauser/Ms. Tree team-up is I did the layouts and drew Mauser in and just kind of roughed in where Ms. Tree would go. Then Terry Beatty drew her in while he was inking it and it all came together. At one point, at Charlton, the Lee Majors people were complaining about my Lee Majors heads on The Six Million Dollar Man, so Neal Adam’s studio was doing other Six Million Dollar Man stuff, so they redrew my Lee Majors heads. And then, at a certain time, the people at Space: 1999 were complaining about John Byrne’s Martin Landau heads, so I was redrawing John’s Martin Landau heads while Neal was redrawing my Steve Austin heads! Nobody knows who does what in this business! You never can tell! CBC: Barbara Bain’s were okay? Joe: Barbara Bain’s were fine! [Jon laughs] You don’t have to worry about showing that much emotion in a Barbara Bain! [laughter] CBC: That’s true! She’s rather stoic, like Julie London. You had to do Julie London, didn’t you? And Randolph Mantooth, for Emergency! Joe: Oh, right! [laughs] CBC: Was it the transition of you coming back to Chicago to go back to DC… to go back? Was that the plan? Joe: Yes. CBC: Did you prepare yourself for that or did you just come back? You had the place, right? Hilarie: Yeah. We had just rented it out. Joe: I think the only abrupt change is Len Wein was editing Green Lantern, and I worked out with him what was going on and I was going to come back to Green Lantern. But then Len moved on, so I was coming back to Andy Helfer as editor, which was kind of a shock. Steve Englehart was writing and I’d worked with Steve on The Avengers, so I was okay there and it worked out fine with Andy. CBC: You actually worked with Andy on the Big Books? Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

Joe: Yes. I love those. Those are great. CBC: How many stories did you do for each one? Joe: Usually just one. The way Andy worked it is he waited ’til the very end to see what stories were going to be impossibly late and could not possibly be done in time to get the book out. He’s send one to me and one to Sergio. [Hilarie laughs] And they’d come back in! So, that’s how he got the books out. CBC: Are you one of the most reliable men in the business? Joe: I believe so. I do have that reputation. Hilarie: And you were in all the Big Books but one? Joe: All but one, yeah. Andy was ahead of his time. He had good ideas, but they were pushed on DC before the world was ready for them. And the Big Books? There are more things like that that you can buy at like airport terminals and stuff like that just to read a bit at a time. He was the first to bring the Japanese stuff like Gon. And the crime graphic novels. CBC: Right, right. David Mazzucchelli and the City of Glass. Joe: I did Family Man with Jerome Charyn and History of Violence was one of those books. That was a movie. Yeah, Andy had some really good ideas. Road to Perdition. 67

This page: Unfortunately, space constraints prohibit including in this issue the interview segment where Joe and Hilarie discuss their collaborative process, especially regarding informational children’s comic projects with Dr. Athos Bousvaros, MD, of Boston Children’s Hospital (a huge comics fan!). But CBC does intend to devote a separate article on this important work in a near-future issue. Above are covers of the Statons/Bousvaros comics work to date. Below is the good doctor in a 2010 pic. Check out the Staton, Ramona Fradon, and George Tuska commission work behind him!

CBC: Did you work with Max other than on that mini-series? Joe: Well, there was Ms. Tree and… Oh! Yeah! Strange thing. Tekno Comix? There was a Mickey Spillane property, Mike Danger, which was actually the original name of Mike Hammer. But Tekno had picked it up as a property and somehow, in conjunction with their doing a comic about it, they were doing a comic strip! And it ran in the Asbury Park Press only. Keith Giffen drew the first few episodes of that. And then my friend Chris Mills was editing down there and he called me up to take over that strip. So I did several weeks of the Mike Danger strip. So that was something Max wrote. CBC: Was that your first comic strip? Joe: First real comic strip, yes. CBC: Had you always had that in the back of your mind? That you wanted to do that? Joe: Yeah, I always wanted to do a strip and more than that I always wanted to do Dick Tracy! CBC: Did you always read Dick Tracy? Joe: Well, you know, I lost track for a while, but always in

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Amy Goes Gluten-Free and JD Shapes Up © Boston Children’s Hospital. Pete Learns About Crohn’s and Colitis © Crohn’s and Colitis Foundation of America. Photo courtesy of Boston Children’s Hospital.

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one way or another. Mike Danger was very Dick Tracy-esque. It was Mike Hammer in the future. CBC: And you talked about maybe one day drawing Dick Tracy? Did you bring it up? Joe: I think originally he did. We were just at First Comics, you know? CBC: You had a friendship with Chris Mills? Joe: Oh, yeah. Chris is the guy who writes the Femme Noir strip. He was an editor at Tekno. We had actually worked before. He was with a little outfit called Alpha Comics. He had recruited me to do a Michael Mauser story for a collection he was doing of detective stories. It was a one-shot graphic novel sort of thing. It had a Mike Barr story about the Maze Agency and a couple other creator-owned characters. So I had worked with Chris there and then he turned up at Tekno and we did Mike Danger there. And then when he went back north, we worked on this creator-owned property, Femme Noir, which was originally like The Spirit in a dress. A female in a blue raincoat with .45s. CBC: Could a person really do that? Wouldn’t they be knocked down shooting both at the same time? Joe: Jerry Pournelle had written an extensive fanzine article about The Shadow carrying two .45s. This was an article how the weight of the .45s, how much trouble it is to reload and if you run out of bullets in both guns at the same time you’re a goner. Because you’d have to stick one under one arm [Hilarie laughs] and I don’t think you really could! It looks great! CBC: It sure does. [laughs] Joe: At least Mauser only carries one Mauser. It’s all he can handle. CBC: So you came back to working on Green Lantern. Joe: That’s when Steve Englehart changed the focus to concentrating on a whole bunch of Green Lanterns rather than just Hal. It was like a whole bunch of aliens who lived in the woods in an A-frame. It was great! It was cool. [laughs] And I always liked working with Steve because I had no idea what he was going to do next. CBC: Did you receive full scripts? Joe: No… sometimes… maybe! [Hilarie laughs] Steve worked however he felt like at any given time. Sometimes it was full-script, sometimes it was Marvel-style, and occasionally he gave me several pages of dialogue and said, “They should be doing something while they say this.” [laughter] Steve says that he liked how I did body language and he would pick up on a character’s personality by how I would have Guy Gardner standing or how Arisia sitting around the headquarters or something. He could figure out new takes on the characters just by how I presented their physicality. So it was great. We did have a back and forth there. I almost had never input on plots with Steve, but we had more back and forth, that he would do something and then I would do something and we’d pick up on what the other had done. So that was really good. I think that was probably my best work experience, the short time I worked with Steve. CBC: Were you guys part of the development of Guy Gardner becoming a jerk? Joe: No, we were not part of it. We did it! We are the guys who created the modern version of Guy Gardner. CBC: But he came out of a John Broome story, right? I think the first time Guy appeared, he was a gym teacher? He wasn’t necessarily a jerk. Joe: No, he wasn’t a jerk at all. He was a clean-cut, all-American guy. A gym teacher! Just as clean-cut as they come. CBC: Beside the Golden Age version, he was the second earthling Green Lantern. Joe: After Charlie Vicker. CBC: Charlie Vicker? Who was Charlie Vicker? [Joe and Hilarie laugh] Joe: Charley Vicker was the first fill-in Green Lantern, early on. I forget what happened to Hal at this point, but Charley

Vicker was an actor. I think he was sent off into space to be a Green Lantern. I think Charley Vicker is still in the Corps. And then, of course, after Guy it was John Stewart. CBC: John Stewart, not of The Daily Show. [Hilarie laughs] Joe: Not of The Daily Show? That was right after Jimmy Kimmel, right? CBC: So, he was a clean-cut guy, Hal was busy elsewhere. He did the ring for one issue in the ’60s. Then, okay, you’re the guys. Joe: What was the sequence with John Stewart when Guy got run over by a bus? CBC: Was that the Neal Adams thing? Joe: John Stewart had to fill in after Guy was run over by a bus. CBC: Or did they throw him under it? [Joe laughs] Joe: So that’s where Guy was. Knocked out. Hilarie: He was in a coma. Joe: No, the serious coma was later when Sinestro crushed him in an energy bubble. That’s when he went into the really bad coma. But then, for the longest, Guy was in therapy, custodial care. CBC: Convalescence? Joe: Yeah. Guy was in a coma for a long time and then basically Steve totally recreated the character to bring him out of the coma. He had sustained brain damage, so he was no longer the clean-cut lovable gym teacher. He was really a tough, belligerent guy, more like a difficult 12-year-old. Steve completely recreated the character. CBC: Was he fit to wear the ring? Joe: Well, of course. Guy does believe he’s the one, true Green Lantern! He doesn’t want to put up with these others. And, of course, I redesigned the look completely. CBC: Did you give him that turtleneck? Joe: Yeah, that’s my doing. Hilarie: And the haircut. Joe: And the haircut. The theory there is that while he was in the coma, the people at the facility would just come around and give him the bowl-cut trim, so that’s why he has that haircut and he stuck with it after he came out. And he has this weird, ugly uniform because he designed it. That’s his doing. He’s got a vest, big boots, and he was really the first Green Lantern not to get a unitard like everybody and not the Gil Kane look. So Guy was the break with the past that redesigned Green Lanterns after that. So that’s important! CBC: Was he a hero? Joe: Well, when Steve wrote him — because Steve can do subtlety — Guy was not only a belligerent jerk, he was a hero! So you had it both ways. He still did the right thing. Some of the other writers have lost track of just what Guy is and made him more of a jerk — a jerk and a joke — than he was at the first. But the whole Guy Gardner thing came for Steve. CBC: And he was kind of a sensation, right? For some reason, these anti-hero heroes seemed to catch on big. That was around the same time as Lobo getting his fame. Joe: Oh, yeah! People had been waiting for heroes with bad attitudes and bad haircuts! [laughter] CBC: Up to this very day! You have — not the haircuts necessarily — but you have Deadpool and you have Harley Quinn who are arguably the two most popular characters at their respective companies. And they’re anti-heroes. Did you return to the character? Joe: Well, I did a Guy series with Andy Helfer and with Gerard Jones, which was not as much fun as working with Steve. CBC: I guess Secret Wars started the whole big epic thing. Post-1986, DC came out with Millennium, right? Was that a weekly book? Joe: It may have been! It was unreasonable. And the book was late when I came onto it. Steve was writing it. It was the whole DC Universe. Ian Gibson was supposed to be doing the pencils and inks, but this was before you could scan Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

things. And he’s in England! Andy was counting on FedEx to keep things moving. I don’t know who panicked, but somebody at DC realized there was no way this was going to work. CBC: Not on a weekly schedule. So who gets called? Joe: Who gets called? How to get this book to possibly on schedule? So Andy called me in and I was suddenly doing a company crossover with many, many characters. This was a time when lots of the characters were being redesigned and uniforms for the characters were being introduced in their books. Everything was changing and I was just in the middle of it. Between me and the production department, and shipping back and forth frantically to Ian, we got it out! It is not one of my more proud moments as a result but just that we got it out at all I think is an achievement. CBC: [Laughs] It was good when the Millennium was over. [Joe and Hilarie laugh] That’s a lot of work. Now just to get back to these days, this is pre-Internet. Did you deal through FedEx? Was the FedEx guy coming all the time? Were you and the FedEx guy on a first name basis? Joe: Oh, yeah. We got to know the FedEx guy real well! CBC: What was his name? Hilarie: Beth! Joe: It was Beth! It wasn’t a guy. It was a lady! Hilarie: And she still stops and says hi to us. Joe: We see her around town! [Jon laughs] CBC: When it absolutely has to be there overnight… there’s Beth! Joe: Sometimes with Millennium, it was a matter of finishing it up in the middle of the night and getting it to the bus in the morning, taking it straight there. And, I guess, they were sending copies to Steve, he was rewriting things, things were going to Ian, it was all coming back to the production department that was trying to make sense of things as they were coming in! CBC: Did you ever sit and read the entire thing afterwards? Joe: No. I never understood it. CBC: Honestly, at the time, 1986 was just an amazing, amazing year for comics. I was totally into it and Millennium comes out, I’m confused by it, and I stopped buying comics for a while. It was just, like, “Huh?” After Crisis was very well done and here we are… No offense, Steve. We all have our pressures and our issues. Joe: In Steve’s defense, he wasn’t exactly allowed to write the story he wanted to write. He did have an awful lot of interference at various levels of DC in doing the book. CBC: Was this like the beginnings of the group editors kind of thing? “No, not to my character you won’t do this”? Joe: There was a lot of that and then there were just pressures from higher management that Steve couldn’t do political stuff he wanted to do and… Steve’s very political. CBC: You should know what you’re getting when you hire Steve Englehart. Joe: It didn’t quite work out the way any of us wanted it to

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#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Next page: Exquisite example of South American inker Horacio Ottolini’s superb linework over Joe Staton’s pencils. This spread is from Batman: Shadow of the Bat Annual #4 [1994]. Previous page: Besides Dick Tracy, Joe Staton is currently producing — one page a week, available to view online at www.femmenoir.com — his collaboration with writer Christopher Mills, the “blonde justice” avenger, Femme Noir. A print collection, The Dark City Diaries, was published by APE Entertainment.

but, like I say, it got done! [laughs] Which is more than can be expected! CBC: Has it ever been reprinted? Joe: Yes. I have a reprint if you’d like one. It’s a graphic novel. CBC: And it touched on a whole bunch of different books, right? Then they went crazy with these events and they just haven’t quit. Secret Wars is coming back! Joe: And with DC redoing everything every week, who knows? CBC: Convolution! [Joe laughs] Yeah, you did a mini-series with The Huntress. Why are you in Fred Hembeck Destroys the Marvel Universe? Joe: Fred’s a pal and I think was still a neighbor at the time. I inked Fred in, at least a chapter. I think I did “Fred and The Punisher.” I really liked inking Fred. CBC: And did Paul write The Huntress series? Hilarie: Was that Cavalieri? Code of Silence. Joe: The New Huntress. Joey Cavalieri wrote that. That was the second Huntress. The Helena Bertinelli Huntress. She was the daughter of a mob boss and a lot of it had to do

with mob intrigue and hired assassins and… I thought it was really good. Didn’t really catch on. Hilarie: And that’s the version that they pulled into Arrow as opposed to the Batman’s daughter. CBC: You did Batman? Joe: I did a bunch of Batman. I did a bunch of one-shots. I did a nice graphic novel with Mike Barr about Two-Face. It was a tribute to Dick Sprang. CBC: Right! It was right after the release of the movie? Joe: I think everything was right after the release of the movie. I was very happy when they released the movie because I was getting lots of Batman work and anything with Batman’s name on it was getting royalties. So that was a nice time. CBC: You were in TV Guide? Joe: Yes. Heidi MacDonald was editing for Disney and she needed two or three pages for some feature in TV Guide that would show a whole bunch of Disney characters. So she had me draw them all kind of overnight. CBC: Nice! That must have been sweet! And a lucrative assignment, right? Joe: That was cool. That was good. Only one time, but it was good! CBC: And you were on model and it was pretty sharp? Joe: Yeah. Came out pretty well. CBC: You’re pretty good at on-model? Joe: I… can handle pretty much on-model. CBC: Speaking of models, let’s get to talking about the big dog! [Joe and Hilarie laugh] Joe: The big dog! When Ted Turner sold his operation to Warner Brothers, some minor part of his deal was that DC Comics was going to be publishing Hanna-Barbera comics DC was obligated to do a Scooby book. They didn’t want it to go through the regular editorial staff. Marty Pasko was editor of special projects, which is normally licensing material, and Bronwyn Taggart worked for Marty and she was assigned to do the Scooby book. Nobody was paying much attention to what she was doing at that point, so she was having lots of different people do whatever they’d like to do for the Scooby story. “Would you like to do a Scooby story?” “Yeah.” Ernie Colon did some nice ones and I was in to see Marty one day after my Green Lantern stuff had run out, and Bronwyn asked me would I liked to do a Scooby story. I said, “Sure. Who’s Scooby?” [laughs] CBC: You didn’t know who Scooby-Doo was? Joe: I was vaguely aware of him, but I had never followed Scooby, so she gave me some model sheets and a script by Terrance Griep, and I drew Scooby-Doo and she liked it. Then she gave me another one, but she kept on rotating with a whole bunch of people for a while. Then she said I was the only one who was turning things in on time. She was exaggerating, you know, because, certainly, Ernie was always on time. But she put me regular on doing Scooby stuff. I thought that was very temporary, but I went through at least five different editors and I found out it was 13 years! Hilarie: You started in October ’97. That’s your first story according to this. Joe: I counted at least a hundred issues of Scooby that I had a story in, so it was a temporary job that lasted at least ten years. CBC: That’s a lot of Scooby! Joe: That is a lot of Scooby-Doo. I’m not sure if anybody’s drawn more Scooby. [laughs] But I like Scooby! Scooby’s great! You’ll find Scooby dolls all around the house here. Hilarie: When we did shows while he was drawing Scooby, we found a big dog dish and he put Scooby stickers on it and filled it with Scooby snacks which are shaped like dog bones! We had it on the table. [Joe laughs] And the kids would come by and they’d see it and they’d go “Ewww” and we’d encourage them to take one. [Hilarie and Joe laugh] Joe: Some of them would not take a Scooby snack! CBC: And it was perfectly edible? Joe: They are graham crackers in dog bone shapes. They

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looked like dog biscuits. CBC: Were the Scooby-Doo stories comparatively easy to draw or was they all the same, or… ? Joe: Well, off the bat, starting, one really good thing is they gave me the old model sheets that Alex Toth had done. So, drawing like Alex Toth is something I would shoot for anyway, so that was good. In fact, since I didn’t really know Scooby that well, I was looking for an Alex Toth book to match the model sheets. He had done issues of Hot Wheels, so I based my Scooby books on Hot Wheels! CBC: And added the Scoobster! Joe: Yeah! [Joe and Hilarie laugh] You just figure Hot Wheels if you gave ’em a big dog. CBC: It’s the same crew! Joe: And Dick Giordano had inked those, so when Andrew Pepoy inked mine, it was very much in the same tradition of what I was looking at. It worked out fine. CBC: Were they easy? Joe: They varied. A lot of different writers. They were buying scripts from all over the place. Some were very difficult because they’d be about things that I didn’t understand and I’d need a lot of reference on and some are things I really got into. I like the ones that were, like, in haunted houses and things in the bayous with atmosphere and alligators. It was always a challenge! CBC: I wouldn’t imagine. Joe: Yeah, Scooby-Doo was really good! I very seldom got stale on Scooby just because everything was continually different. CBC: Who was your favorite writer? Joe: Well, Terrance Griep is definitely one of my favorites. Alex Simmons did some really good Scooby stories. Very moody, like, haunted London, that sort of thing, Alex did some good stuff. The guy from Nickelodeon with the good hair! Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

CBC: “The guy from Nickelodeon with the good hair”? Joe: I’m blanking on names. Chris Duffy! CBC: You know him? Joe: Yes! CBC: I didn’t know you knew him. Joe: Yes. You know, the guy from Nickelodeon with the good hair! That’s Chris Duffy! Yes, Chris Duffy has even better hair than Renee Witterstaetter. CBC: Wow! Joe: It’s true! [laughs] Yeah, actually there were some very good writers on Scooby. CBC: Thirteen years! A hundred issues. Who would imagine? Joe: Yeah. Very few people do a hundred issues of a comic. CBC: Your wife lost getting a job because of California Governor Ronald Reagan and you drew a graphic biography? [Hilarie laughs] Good lord! How dare you, man! Joe: [Laughs] Also for Andy Helfer. Two things. If somebody calls up and it looks like a challenge, I’m up for it. If somebody calls up and something looks like fun… CBC: Did you pass that by your wife on that one? Ronald Reagan! Hilarie: Well, I was thrilled with it because it was something so far out of the Scooby-Doo — even GL — kind of thing. I was really for it. I really like it when he stretches himself and has something fun to do. CBC: Do you have an autobiographical story in you? Joe: Probably not. No. It doesn’t interest me. CBC: Are you a fan of comics? Joe: I was! CBC: How about now? Joe: I don’t follow much. Looks like some of the current stuff is looking interesting, so I’m thinking about looking at what’s going on now but… you know. I have been at times very much a fan of comics. There really are things 71

This page: Joe collaborated with Charles Santino to adapt an Ayn Rand book as a graphic novel.

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

happening now. CBC: Did Chris pitch this idea to do Femme Noir? Joe: Yes. First we did it as a webcomic. CBC: Wow. Is that the first digital project that you worked on? Joe: Yeah. I drew it normally, Chris colored it and lettered it and it went up, so… Actually we did it in a format that looked kind of like Sunday strips. Horizontal so it would fit computer screens. We did that and it eventually went to print. It’s a cool character, it’s a detective story, it’s lots of really weird villains, a lot like Tracy or E-Man. It was really the kind of thing I do. CBC: How would you get paid for doing a webcomic? Joe: We never got paid. We just did it. CBC: You did it on faith with your friend and with the character? Joe: Yeah. It was something fun. CBC: So, did you do a page a week or? Joe: That was the plan. It didn’t always work out that way. We kept on a pretty regular schedule for quite a while. We did about 50 pages. CBC: And the plan was always that eventually it would go to print?

Joe: Yeah. CBC: How’s your commission work? Do you do a lot of it? Joe: Not a lot. Actually I would get more if I more aggressively looked for it and a lot of people knew I was doing them. It’s hard to fit in commissions, but if people are really interested, they can reach me through Spencer Beck at www.theartistschoice.com. I still do some commissions. CBC: There’s no sign there saying, “Commissions, Head and Body… ” Joe: Well, at shows, I do a lot! CBC: At the shows, okay. I guess you walk out with more money than you had spent. Joe: I usually get into the “zone” where I do one sketch after another and that works out pretty well. CBC: And you get to hear people say, “Hey, I like your stuff. You’re important to me.” How do you take that? Joe: I like it! [laughs] The cool thing, really, with doing Scooby… I go back with the Justice Society and the Earth 2 characters — those are going back to the ’40s — and Scooby is current, so I have fans who are very small and I have fans who are very old. And I have teenagers who tell me their grandpa was really big on Dick Tracy! [laughs] So I have generations of fans! CBC: And the Femme Noir was printed as a comic in 2008? Who published that? Joe: Ape published that. CBC: You did some Archie work. Joe: I did a couple of things for Archie. Mini-series. CBC: In 2011, you did Anthem! Joe: I did! Yes. CBC: You an Ayn Randian? [Joe laughs] You and Steve Ditko buddies? Did you read The Fountainhead? Joe: No… no. Steve and I don’t talk politics. Charlie Santino lined it up. He put things together and asked me if I was interested and I said sure. Our take on Anthem was very literal. We translated it almost directly except for filling in a couple plot points and we treated it as a teen romance — a YA. A coupla cute kids, rebelling against a repressive society, going off into the woods on their own. That’s the story! CBC: When you worked on Archie, did you work for Victor Gorelick or… who did you work for? Joe: I mostly worked for Steve Oswald, who’s the production guy. I did one mini-series that was one of their new look, which was trying to make the characters look more modern and a little… I don’t know… grittier? And I did another one that was classic Archie characters where the Archie characters were trapped in very lightly disguised versions of classic video games like the Mario Brothers and stuff like that. I liked that one! That was fun! Steve Oswald wrote that one. Bob Smith inked that one. Bob Smith is also one of my very favorite inkers. CBC: All right, let’s talk about a certain detective. The guy in the yellow raincoat. All right! So you go way back with… Joe: Dick Tracy. Yes, I go way back with Dick Tracy over 40 years. Hilarie: [Laughs] No. Over 60 years. Joe: Oh, that’s right! [Hilarie laughs] I’m 60-something so… CBC: You can be 40 for us right now. Joe: Oh, right. I worked for 40 years. So 40-something I worked and I was 60-something for all! [laughs] CBC: You remember saying to Max, “Maybe someday!” When did that call come? Joe: The thing was, over the years, there’d be stories that somebody was retiring and that the strip was opening up. I sent my samples in. I never made it, never made the cut or… anyway, never got the strip. But I was still interested in doing Tracy and I was generally thinking about doing it with Max. But then I met Mike Curtis. We met at the mid-South shows — Memphis Fantasy Cons — and it’s funny. We grew up so close to each other and we were both fans from a certain time. At that time, there was a story around that you could do “tribute” things on the Web as long as you made sure the actual copyright owners were credited and like that.

This page: The late Bob Oksner collaborated with Joe Staton on the unbought strip, The Elderberries. Here are some samples courtesy of J.S.

I’ve since learned this is not true. But we just decided, as a goof, to do our own version of a Tracy strip. I just wanted to do Tracy! I will occasionally do things I don’t get paid for that I just want to do and that was one. So we did a couple continuities of very short Tracy stories and Mike put together, or the guy’s he was working with put together, a website with some short stories and not-so-short stories about Tracy. CBC: Fan fiction and that kind of thing? Joe: Yes. Although some of it wasn’t really fan because Jim Doherty — who’s been our police advisor on Tracy — wrote something. He’s written a lot of non-fiction stuff and has been published fairly often. So you couldn’t really call what he did fan-fiction, but he wrote Dick Tracy adventures. So that was that. We were embedded in this other thing, so it looked more like a proper tribute than just us doing a strip. So, we had this up and that’s when Dick Locher, who’d done the strip forever, actually retired. Because we’d had the Tribune’s copyright notice on what we were doing, they were aware of us. They knew we were doing it. They hadn’t decided yet if they were going to sue us, so they were trying to decide if they wanted to cancel Tracy or go to the trouble of recruiting people to take over the strip. I guess Steve Tippie was the licensing guy and he said, “Well, why don’t we hire these guys?” So they asked us did we want to do the strip? Did we think we could do it even, could actually produce a daily strip. We said, “Well… yeah. We could do that.” So instead of suing us, they hired us to take over the strip. Hilarie: It was announced on Joe’s birthday four years ago, and four years ago today, their first strip ran. [Joe laughs] Joe: And we’ve obviously been doing it four years. We’ve gotten a Harvey two years for doing it! CBC: Congratulations! Joe: We’re getting real good reactions on it. Hilarie: On GoComics they have huge amounts of comments. CBC: It’s faithful to Chester Gould’s version? Joe: Very much! CBC: Have you introduced new characters? Joe: A lot of new characters. Double-Up… and Stiletta, who is Flattop’s long-lost wife. She wears stilettos in her hairdo. [laughs] And we have a really crazy character called Black Jack, who’s kind of based on Jim Carrey. Basically, he’s an out there sort of crazy guy and he commits crimes so that Dick Tracy will try to arrest him, so that he can shoot Dick Tracy’s hat off! [Jon laughs] That’s his motivation in life — to shoot that hat! It’s a matter of honor with him to shoot Dick Tracy’s Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

This page: Hey, it was a ’70s thing, okay? Rutland hosted a Halloween parade every year, and comics folk were only happy to oblige. Here’s some float participants dressed up as Charlton characters in the mid-’70s, Note E-Man’s skivvies! At bottom is Joe Staton and Nick Cuti checking out the float. Next page: Joe and Hilarie during Ye Ed’s March visit to their Kingston, NY, abode.

Joe: Well, he’s a grandpa. He’s got family and kids and grandkids and so on. CBC: In real life, if he was first came in 1931, what’s the math there? Joe: [Laughs] The thing is you can’t think like that! CBC: I was just curious! Is it going to be collected? Joe: That unfortunately doesn’t seem to be in the works. CBC: And you won two Harveys. Was that as a team? Joe: Yeah, our whole little team. CBC: And who else is on the team? Joe: Well, there’s me. I do the pencils. Mike Curtis writes it. His wife, Carole, is his first, in-house editor. Our inker and letterer is Shelley Pleger and our colorist is Shane Fisher. And our police consultant has been Sgt. Jim Doherty. And our editor in Chicago now is Tracy Clark. Our editor used to be Leigh Hanlon. And the funny thing is, Shelley and Shane came to our team because they had worked with Mike on Shanda the Panda! So Mike kind of showed up with the whole team lined up! [laughs] And, of course, Hilarie is my own traffic manager! CBC: You guys had the audacity to use their copyrighted characters and then end up with the strip. That’s pretty cool! Joe: It is, like, entirely unreasonable! [laughter] Hilarie: Had a lot of luck that they didn’t get sued. Joe: Yeah! Right! [laughs] CBC: Well, yeah! It was like, “Do we sue these guys or do we save on the lawyers’ fees and hire ‘em?” I like that pragmatic thinking! They’re not angry. ‘No! Let’s just hire ’em!” Pretty good job! “This Staton brings the work in on time. We don’t have to worry about deadlines!” Joe: With Tracy, we do have to worry about deadlines. It’s amazing! I’ve talked to Ramona Fradon and June Brigman about this — that you can be doing a daily strip and be perfectly on time and the next day they’ll call you and tell you you’re six weeks behind. I don’t know how the math works out or where the days go but somehow there’s a whole different frame of time passing on daily strips. We had a call one day. We had like half an hour to get the Sunday strip in and Shane Fisher, he’s normally a designer for a huge print shop out in Detroit. He left work, went home, colored the Sunday strip — fortunately he lived close. He colored the strip in less than half an hour and uploaded it or otherwise we would have missed being printed that week! [chuckles] CBC: Do you have a fitness regimen? You are quite trim. Do you exercise at all? Do you walk? Joe: Actually, this is a three-story house, so I walk a lot just in the house. But I have a friend, Paul Abrams, another artist, who lives just a couple of blocks away and we will routinely go for long walks. We have a real nice Victorian cemetery right up the street and we’ll go for long walks in Montrepose Cemetery which was designed by Calvert Vaux. I do a lot of walking. CBC: And you two said you did 20 shows last year? Hilarie: Maybe not last year. Maybe the year before it was 20 and last year was a little less. CBC: But still! That’s more than a third of the year! Joe: Yeah, I think this year is just like six or seven, which is more reasonable. CBC: What’s your favorite show? Joe: Heroes Con, in Charlotte. CBC: Without hesitation. Joe: Yeah. It’s all comics. Very friendly people. Shelton, who runs it, really cares about comics. It’s a very family-oriented show You can bring little kids to it and they’re just fine. It’s a real good show. CBC: What are your plans coming up? Do you have any comics in mind that you’d like to do? Joe: Actually, I have several things I have to get done. I mentioned I’m doing an old script that Nick wrote for Don Newton for Michael Ambrose’s Charlton Spotlight. CBC: “Mastermind”! He kind of looked like Sinestro. Joe: Yeah, right. Don did those designs so I’m working off #9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

hat because once Tracy’s hat’s been shot off, he retires, and he puts it on his Wall of Hats! This is something Chester Gould introduced. He has hats that have been blown off with handguns, with shotguns, that have been knocked off with machetes. Dick Tracy has all these hats! So Black Jack wants to contribute to Dick Tracy’s Wall of Hats. Sometimes he shoots Dick Tracy’s hat off and he gets arrested and he’s sent away. He’s happy! He’s a good character. Double-Up is just a big guy with a bull-whip. He’s a threat but he’s not one of the more exotic characters. We have a brother and sister team called Silver Nitrate and his sister, Sprocket. All their crimes have to do with old movies. Oh, and we have a horror show host gone bad named Abner Kadaver, with his sidekick, Rikki Mortis, who’s in punk regalia. She’s really cute. And we bring back the old characters. Hilarie: And the crossovers! Joe: When Little Orphan Annie’s strip was canceled, she was left on a cliffhanger, so people wondered for years did Annie make it back after she was kidnapped by the Butcher of the Balkans. So we finished up that story! Punjab, the big Asian bodyguard, sent him to “fly with the Magi.” Which is, you know, something magical. It has to do with Annie characters and had to do with plots from the 1940s and we actually brought in some characters from Terry and the Pirates. The best place to see Tracy is GoComics. And occasionally we’ll just do one or two pages with other comic strips where we know the people involved. Dick Tracy had to go out to Hootin’ Holler to see if there’s anything going on with Snuffy Smith. We had like a couple days’ crossover with Funky Winkerbean. We did a crossover where Walt Wallet from Gasoline Alley came to town for about a week. We consider it very “meta.” You know what the kids say? [laughs] When fiction comments on itself. Everybody in a strip kind of knows they’re in a strip. CBC: By your calculation, how old is Dick Tracy if he was a human being? Joe: As I draw Dick Tracy, I think he’s 52 years old and I think Tess is about 48. CBC: Fifty-two? That’s mature.

those. I’m working on the Femme Noir story for Chris so I have to get that done and I have a three-part E-Man story that Nick wrote for Charlton Neo that introduces Nova Kane’s little sister, Anya. Charlie Santino always has things in the works [laughs] and he may actually show up with something that I may have to start drawing! So there are several things I’m working on, behind on… and with the strip. CBC: Along with a daily strip, seven days a week. Joe: [Chuckles] Right! CBC: Six dailies and one Sunday! Joe: Yep! CBC: That’s a lot of work! Do you feel like… Is this the place you wanna be? Joe: I’d decided to retire when Tracy came in! I was ready to shut down, so I do think resting would be good. I don’t wanna give up Tracy, but I would like to actually retire other than that at some point! CBC: Has it been a good life? Is it the career that you wanted? Joe: It’s hard to say. Sometimes I see myself as a serial failure because nothing I did actually lasted that long! Thirteen years on Scooby-Doo and then I’m off! But then lately I’ve had people that tell me they respected me for how I managed to reinvent myself all the time. I would wind up kind of end of the line and all of a sudden might be doing something else for a long time. I’m trying to look at it that way.

CBC: Well, if anything, we look at that incredible list of the continuity of your work. Talk about reinventing yourself, that certainly says a lot to your attention to detail. Joe: So I can look at it as a very depressing litany of things that didn’t last or I can face it as reinventing myself and winding up doing something I wanted to do. I try to look at it that way. CBC: [To Hilarie] How is it being married to a comic book artist? Joe: She doesn’t get out much. [laughter] Hilarie: I think it’s not that it’s a comic book artist. It’s that it’s somebody with deadlines. Joe takes those very seriously. It’s always been that one of the main priorities is making the deadline. That meant other things were put aside. You know, people don’t go to the movies for other reasons! That said, we have done an awful lot. We enjoy what we do and have made incredible friends. Yes, we may do 20 conventions, but I would say nine out of ten of those conventions, we spend a lot of time with friends. We’ve made good friends over the years. As you said, it’s a small community, but it’s a good community. I like the people that Joe’s been involved with over the years. Good heavens, we neglected to say that Joe, Mike Curtis and the entire Dick Tracy team have won not one, but two Harvey Awards for “Best Syndicated Strip or Panel,” in 2013 and ’14”! — Y.E.

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NOW SHIPPING: THE INCREDIBLE HERB TRIMPE

From running the first photostat machine at Marvel Comics to being the first to illustrate Wolverine, no other member of the Marvel Bullpen has had such a varied and remarkable career as HERB TRIMPE. He drew licensed characters based on toys such as G.I. Joe, Godzilla, and Transformers, which went on to become blockbuster movies. He drew runs of super-heroes like Iron Man, Defenders, Captain Britain, and even Marvel’s flagship character Spider-Man. But he’s best known for his definitive eightyear stint drawing the INCREDIBLE HULK. This book, produced with Herb’s full cooperation just prior to his passing, chronicles the life and art of Trimpe through his own voice, as well as the voices of friends and colleagues like STAN LEE, TOM DEFALCO, ROY THOMAS, JOHN ROMITA, BILL PECKMANN, SAL BUSCEMA, JOE SINNOTT, LARRY HAMA, DOUG MOENCH, ELIOT BROWN, LEN WEIN, RON FRENZ, STEVE ENGLEHART, and his son ALEX TRIMPE. Their testimony to his talent and his legacy of artwork leave no wonder why he has been dubbed “The Incredible Herb Trimpe.” By DEWEY CASSELL and AARON SULTAN. (160-page FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER) $34.95 (Digital Edition) $7.95 • ISBN: 9781605490625

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BRICKJOURNAL #37

BACK ISSUE #83

BACK ISSUE #84

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“International Heroes!” Alpha Flight, the New X-Men, Global Guardians, Captain Canuck, and Justice League International, plus SpiderMan in the UK and more. Also: exclusive interview with cover artists STEVE FASTNER and RICH LARSON. Featuring the work of JOHN BYRNE, CHRIS CLAREMONT, DAVE COCKRUM, RICHARD COMELY, KEITH GIFFEN, KEVIN MAGUIRE, and more! Alpha Flight vs. X-Men cover by FASTNER/LARSON.

“Supergirl in the Bronze Age!” Her 1970s and 1980s adventures, including her death in Crisis on Infinite Earths and her many rebirths. Plus: an ALAN BRENNERT interview, behind the scenes of the Supergirl movie starring HELEN SLATER, Who is Superwoman?, and a look at the DC Superheroes Water Ski Show. With PAUL KUPPERBERG, ELLIOT MAGGIN, MARV WOLFMAN, plus a jam cover recreation of ADVENTURE COMICS #397!

“Christmas in the Bronze Age!” Go behind the scenes of comics’ best holiday tales of the 1970s through the early 1990s! And we revisit Superhero Merchandise Catalogs of the late ‘70s! Featuring work by SIMON BISLEY, CHRIS CLAREMONT, JOSÉ LUIS GARCÍALÓPEZ, KEITH GIFFEN, the KUBERT STUDIO, DENNY O’NEIL, STEVE PURCELL, JOHN ROMITA, JR., and more. Cover by MARIE SEVERIN and MIKE ESPOSITO!

“Marvel Bronze Age Giants and Reprints!” In-depth exploration of Marvel’s GIANT-SIZE series, plus indexes galore of Marvel reprint titles, Marvel digests and Fireside Books editions, and the last days of the “Old” X-Men! Featuring work by DAN ADKINS, ROSS ANDRU, RICH BUCKLER, DAVE COCKRUM, GERRY CONWAY, STEVE GERBER, STAN LEE, WERNER ROTH, ROY THOMAS, and more. Cover by JOHN ROMITA, SR.!

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ALTER EGO #135

ALTER EGO #136

ALTER EGO #137

ALTER EGO #138

STAR WARS! Amazing custom LEGO ships by ERIC DRUON, incredible galactic layouts by builder AC PIN, a look at the many droid creations built by LEGO fans—truly, the LEGO Force has awakened! Plus JARED K. BURKS on minifigure customizing, step-bystep “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, BrickNerd DIY Fan Art, MINDSTORMS robotics lessons by DAMIEN KEE, and more!

LEN WEIN (writer/co-creator of Swamp Thing, Human Target, and Wolverine) talks about his early days in comics at DC and Marvel! Art by WRIGHTSON, INFANTINO, TRIMPE, DILLON, CARDY, APARO, THORNE, MOONEY, and others! Plus FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), MR. MONSTER’s Comic Crypt, the Comics Code, and DAN BARRY! Cover by DICK GIORDANO with BERNIE WRIGHTSON!

BONUS 100-PAGE issue as ROY THOMAS talks to JIM AMASH about celebrating his 50th year in comics—and especially about the ‘90s at Marvel! Art by TRIMPE, GUICE, RYAN, ROSS, BUCKLER, HOOVER, KAYANAN, BUSCEMA, CHAN, VALENTINO, and others! Plus FCA, MR. MONSTER’s Comic Crypt, AMY KISTE NYBERG on the Comics Code, and a cover caricature of Roy by MARIE SEVERIN!

Incredible interview with JIM SHOOTER, which chronicles the first decade of his career (Legion of Super-Heroes, Superman, Supergirl, Captain Action) with art by CURT SWAN, WALLY WOOD, GIL KANE, GEORGE PAPP, JIM MOONEY, PETE COSTANZA, WIN MORTIMER, WAYNE BORING, AL PLASTINO, et al.! Plus FCA, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY, and more! Cover art by CURT SWAN!

Science-fiction great (and erstwhile comics writer) HARLAN ELLISON talks about Captain Marvel and The Monster Society of Evil! Also, Captain Marvel artist/ co-creator C.C. BECK writes about the infamous Superman-Captain Marvel lawsuit of the 1940s and ‘50s in a double-size FCA section! Plus two titanic tributes to Golden Age artist FRED KIDA, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

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DRAW! #32

FREE 2015 TWOMORROWS CATALOG

KIRBY COLLECTOR #66

KIRBY COLLECTOR #67

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DOUBLE-TAKES ISSUE! Features oddities, coincidences, and reworkings by both Jack and Stan Lee: the Galactus Origin you didn’t see, Ditko’s vs. Kirby’s Spider-Man, how Lee and Kirby viewed “writing” differently, plus a rare KIRBY radio interview with Stan, MARK EVANIER and our other regular columnists, unseen and unused pencil art from FANTASTIC FOUR, 2001, CAPTAIN VICTORY, BRUCE LEE, & more!

UP-CLOSE & PERSONAL! Kirby interviews you weren’t aware of, photos and recollections from fans who saw him in person, personal anecdotes from Jack’s fellow pros, LEE and KIRBY cameos in comics, MARK EVANIER and other regular columnists, and more! Don’t let the photo cover fool you; this issue is chockfull of rare Kirby pencil art, from Roz Kirby’s private sketchbook, and Jack’s most personal comics stories!

How-to demos & interviews with Philadelphia artists JG JONES (52, Final Crisis, Wanted, Batman and Robin) and KHOI PHAM (The Mighty Avengers, The Astonishing SpiderMan, The Mighty World of Marvel), JAMAR NICHOLAS reviews of art supplies, JERRY ORDWAY demos the “ORD-way” or drawing, and Comic Art Bootcamp by MIKE MANLEY and BRET BLEVINS! JG Jones cover! Mature readers only.

Super-star DC penciler HOWARD PORTER demos his creative process, and JAMAL IGLE discusses everything from storyboarding to penciling as he gives a breakdown of his working methods. Plus there’s Crusty Critic JAMAR NICHOLAS reviewing art supplies, JERRY ORDWAY showing the Ord-Way of doing comics, and Comic Art Bootcamp lessons with BRET BLEVINS and Draw! editor MIKE MANLEY! Mature readers only.

Features all available back issues and books! Download the INTERACTIVE PDF DIGITAL EDITION (click on any item, and you’ll automatically be taken to its page on our website to order), or for a FREE PRINTED COPY, just call, e-mail, write us, or go online to request one, and we’ll mail it to you at no cost (customers outside the US pay a nominal shipping fee)!

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creator’s creators

The Secret Origin of ‘Flash’! Our amazing contributor Steve Thompson shares his roots, bookish and otherwise as leverage, I got more such behind-the-scenes work I turned seven years old in January of 1966 just as editing, ghostwriting, and/or proofreading a number of Batman took over the world. I had read Casper compop culture-related titles for various authors. I spent ics and even seen an X-Men (# 11) before then, but it a year doing publicity for local authors and then six was DC in early ’66 for me. That summer, I discovered months promoting an Italian crockpot cookbook on Marvel, and Captain America quickly tied Batman as social media. That was tasty! my favorite character. For Craig Yoe, I work on a fairly regular basis doI was first published on the letters page of Advening all sorts of behind- the-scenes jobs and handling ture Comics in 1968, when I was just nine years old. his company’s Facebook page and Twitter. I am a staff A few years later, I also got letters in Superman’s Girl transcriber for Comic Book Creator magazine (whose Friend, Lois Lane, Vampirella, and Batman. My first editor bequeathed me the nickname “Flash” for my actual fandom writing was an article on the obscure overnight transcriptions) and have done similar work Marvel character Pussycat, done for Fantagraphics’ for other TwoMorrows publications, including Back Amazing Heroes in 1987. I tried in vain to sell articles Issue and Alter Ego, and just recently started same to CBG, Comics Scene, and other mags, but my next for the new ACE magazine, for which I also am writing appearance in print was in a magazine called Comics reviews. I have written several articles for Back Issue Arena, which also featured early work from nowand for Charlton Arrow, and I have a piece in a 2015 DC co-publisher Dan DiDio. In 1991, though, I won Fantagraphics book on Wally Wood. In 2014, I took on the Comics Interview #100 trivia contest and was the year-long task of piecing together the autobioginterviewed in the mag. After a couple of unrealized raphy of former child star [Land of the Lost] Kathy book projects that netted dozens of rejection slips, Coleman out of 40+ hours of audio cassette interviews I gave up all attempts at writing for years. In 2005, I recorded over a several-year period! made my actual book debut with a short story in an Steven “Flash” Thompson Our book, Lost Girl, was published in March of 2015 to good anthology. sales and reviews. On top of all that, I maintain an average of a dozen After working for nearly three decades managing bookstores, I found blogs at any given time, about half of which are still regularly updated myself out of work at the end of 2008. Unfortunately, this was around the by yours truly. time the economy in general tanked and bookstores were among the first Oh, and my wife, Rene King Thompson, writes the Ms. Molecule to go. To supplement my unemployment income, I started doing transcriponline comic! (Plus we’ve been married 24 years as of this past June!) tions. Comics/TV writer and master blogger Mark Evanier mentioned he was looking for someone to transcribe interviews with cartoon voice artist — Steven Thompson June Foray for her autobiography. I responded and got the gig. Using that

coming attractions: cbc #10 in the fall

Peter Bagge plus the history of WARP!

Another long-awaited subject will receive the CBC treatment as we finally present our exhaustive interview with Peter Bagge, creator of HATE!, covering the alternative cartoonist’s extensive career, from early days as a “punk” cartoonist to his follow-up to R. Crumb as Weirdo editor to A Tw o M o r r o w s P u b l i c a t i o n

No. 10, Sept. 2015

$8.95

in the USA

Neat Stuff to Buddy Bradley to his graphic novels, and much, much more! On the flipside of CBC #10, we present a detailed, in-depth look at that early 1970s oddity, the Broadway spectacular science-fiction play WARP! Art directed by NEAL ADAMS and directed by STUART “REfor Star Wars) also spawned the very first First Comics series in 1983. In addition to the above luminaries, we interview the play’s creator, Lenny Kleinfeld (Bury St. Edmund) and David George Gordon (Flying Frog), as well as look at the comics run. The issue also features part two of our STAN GOLDBERG interview, a comprehensive remembrance of the late, great HERB TRIMPE, and, courtesy of Cory Sedlmeier, we get a rare, behind-the-scenes look at the recent

82658 97073

Marvel reconstruction of the ground-breaking MIRACLEMAN series (that reveals some amazing mysteries about the Alan Moore-scribed comics). And, natch, we include our regular features by GEORGE Khoury, TOM Ziuko, and FRED Hembeck, among others! Come get warped!

ANIMATOR” GORDON, the short-lived production (which undoubtedly was a big inspiration

also featuring: PETER BAGGE • JOHN ROMITA JR. • NEAL ADAMS • FRANK BRUNNER

Comic Book Creator • Summer 2015 • #9

Full-color, 80 pages, $8.95

a picture is worth a thousand words

Remember X-Ray glasses? Or “X-Ray Specs,” as they were sometimes called? Bet you didn’t know that the artwork for the advertisement was done in the 1960s by EC Comics stalwart Joe Orlando. Look closely and you can see his ‘JO’ initials in the lower right hand corner!

from the archives of Tom Ziuko 80

#9 • Summer 2015 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

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THIS JUNE: MONSTER MASH

The Creepy, Kooky Monster Craze In America, 1957-1972 Time-trip back to the frightening era of 1957-1972, when monsters stomped into the American mainstream! Once Frankenstein and fiends infiltrated TV in 1957, an avalanche of monster magazines, toys, games, trading cards, and comic books crashed upon an unsuspecting public. This profusely illustrated full-color hardcover covers that creepy, kooky Monster Craze through features on Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine, the #1 hit “Monster Mash,” Aurora’s model kits, TV shows (Shock Theatre, The Addams Family, The Munsters, and Dark Shadows), “Mars Attacks” trading cards, Eerie Publications, Planet of the Apes, and more! It features interviews with JAMES WARREN (Creepy, Eerie, and Vampirella magazines), FORREST J ACKERMAN (Famous Monsters of Filmland), JOHN ASTIN (The Addams Family), AL LEWIS (The Munsters), JONATHAN FRID (Dark Shadows), GEORGE BARRIS (monster car customizer), ED “BIG DADDY” ROTH (Rat Fink), BOBBY (BORIS) PICKETT (Monster Mash singer/songwriter) and others, with a Foreword by TV horror host ZACHERLEY, the “Cool Ghoul.” Written by MARK VOGER (author of “The Dark Age”). SHIPS JUNE 2015! (192-page FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $13.95 • ISBN: 9781605490649

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Everybody’s Grandpa (Z LSKLZ[ º4\UZ[LY » 5L^ @VYRLY (S 3L^PZ ^HZ H KYVSS +YHJ\SH

Then there was Aurora Plastics Corporation’s infainfa mous guillotine model kit.

Aurora Witch kiit; the wifee posed) and Aurora’s

Aurora had been enjoying great successBama’s box art forr The Witch (for which his Voger Forgotten Prisoner kit photo by Mark Witch kit photo courtesy of Polar Lights; The Witch box photo by Kathy Voglesong; with its model kits based on movie monsters, themselves often based on classic literature. Its Hunchback of Notre Dame set depicted a scene of outright torture — a chained Quasimodo with whip marks on his exposed back — but no one batted an eye. After all, the Hunchback was a character from classic fiction (Victor Hugo, yo!) and the kit was based on a rel relatively recent Hollywood hit. Buoyed by its monstrous suc success, Aurora brought out a decid decidedly gruesome kit: a working guil guillotine. “Victim loses his head! Really works!” proclaimed one ad. Added another: “Harmless fun!” The kit worked like this: The blade came down; the head of the bound man was “cut off”; it landed in the basket. Kids across America painted blood stains on the kit’s blade, head and gener basket withsgenerAddam ’s “The a Milton ous Bradley dabs of Testors red enamel. Game” offered FamilyACard colleagueto of minethe built the nity see kit,opportu way back when. Said he of the rare in color. show of the of reliability the guillotine’s funcstars TV Productions © Filmways Addams Family” “Thetion: “It worked fine except that I covered and re-covered that poor little man’s head in so much red paint, it did occasionally stick.”

WITH HIS LONG BEAK, COMIC MANNERISM and distinctly Noo Yawk S accent, Al Lewis seemed the least likely actor to be cast as Count Dracula. But in some ways, Lewis was a better-known Dracula than his forebears Lugosi, Lon Chaney Jr., Bela John Carradine and Christopher That’s because even non-horror Lee. fans know Lewis’ thanks to his role as Grandpa Dracula, Munster. Lewis with There is confusion over Lewis’ year of birth, apparently created stogie at his by the actor himself, who claimed to New York be older than he was (!). Many sources eatery in put Lewis’ birth in 1923, but he indeed 1989. told me he had been a circus performer Photo by Kathy in 1922. Oh, that Grandpa ... Voglesong Lewis died in 2006. I interviewed him at his Greenwich Village restaurant, Grampa’s Bella Gente Street, in 1989. Good conversationon Bleecker ... not to mention, good pasta. Q: What happened during your audition for Grandpa Munster? LEWIS: I never auditioned. They just called me and told me they were pilot, and would I be interested? doing a They sent me some scripts, and then I flew out. Q: Would you say you created Grandpa? For instance, did you elaborate on the character in the scripts? LEWIS: Yeah. Of course I created it. Sure! I mean, there was no previous mold.

Forgotten Prisoner of Castel-Maré kit. The clearest example of Bama’s use of a movie still was his Dracula box art, which mirrored a publicity photo of Bela Lugosi from “Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein” (1948). Again, it seems odd didn’t go with a still that from the 1931 “Dracula” Bama yet again, Bama’s — and instincts were spot-on. © Universal Studios; box photo by Kathy Voglesong

row for an hour and a half every night, and I’ll just watch movies. I’ll watch the horror movies in sequence, or Sherlock Holmes movies or whatever I’m in the mood for. Q: Did you see your box art in stores at the time of release? BAMA: I never saw them. and I wasn’t interested I was 35 years old at the time, in kids’ model kits. They weren’t offered to me, and I didn’t ask for them. I was 82 before I saw them! But almost everyone I know who says to me, “I put is in their 50s together those monster models when I was a kid.” So it was tremendous exposure. escape it. For all of But I can’t the beautiful Western paintings I’ve done since 1968, I’m better known for the monster kits and Doc Savage. I did 62 Doc Savage covers. That’s a lot of covers. I told my wife (Lynn), “The world will come to an end, but the monster models will still be know, my wife posed around.” You for one of my Aurora her, posing for The jobs. That was Witch. Q: Was she prettier than The Witch? BAMA: A little bit. I always thought of her as an Margret, Lee Remick type. She was gorgeous. AnnAs I get older, my She still is. eyes get weaker, so she still looks beautiful to me.

“Harmless fun!” proclaimed a 1965 ad for Aurora’s Chamber of Horrors Guillotine model kit. Parents begged to differ. Photo courtesy of Polar Lights

Disturbing as the guillotine kit was, Aurora seemed to think it had an “out.” The company hedged its bet by naming the kit “The Madame Tussaud’s Chamber of Horrors Guillotine.” In other words, this kit didn’t depict an actual beheading — it was a depiction of a depiction. And that depiction was from a famous attraction at a respected wax museum. Madame Tussaud’s originated in London, you know. And London is a classy place. It didn’t work. Parents freaked, and Aurora discontin discontinued the product. Not that Aurora exactly dialed down the nightmarish thereafter. The Witch cooked rat stew. The Forgotten Prisoner of Castel-Maré kit implied torture of a most insidious kind — a poor soul chained by the neck and ankles to a prison wall, defenseless against non-human appar visitors (there’s a nearby snake and a rat), who apparently starved to death over a lengthy period. Compared to that, a beheading sounds downright merciful.

Famous Monsters of Filmland made Zacherle its cover boy twice, with issues #7 (1960), in a painting by Albert Nuetzell, and #15 (1962), in a painting by Gogos. Zacherle’ Basil s national profile was also enhanced by coverage in Life, TV Guide and The Evening Post. © Saturday W arren Publishing

200 out of the first three designs So there were a track record. not too bad of news. That’s phenomenon? you a national Q: What made What broke “Big Daddy”? when ROTH: It was Revell said, “We a want to make your model out of cars.” And then, of course, they out made models , too. of the monsters into That broke me the big time. on the Q: You worked but did you model designs, 3-D realizawork on their tions? ROTH: Yeah. them in clay? Q: Did you do in clay, and ROTH: Did ’em at Revell the model-makers plasticarb. made ’em into different Q: How many had kinds of products on your monsters were them? There decals, T-shirts, patches … ROTH: Emco of made a bunch ’60s. decals in the That was a big a lot one. There’s naof old parapher lia that I’ve licensed out through the years. you Q: Which do prefer, drawing monsters or working on cars? tosROTH: It’s a real worksup. I suppose where I ing on cars is but I’ve make good at, money with the gotta make the monsters. a car called Q: You designed the Druid Princess for “The Addams

that were bad

ever used? show. Was it never on the the next Family.” It was speculation. And use it, it for them on can’t ROTH: No. I built and said, “We called me up gonna quit the thing was, they because we’re I thought “The series.” And so successful Munsters” was Family” that “The Addams have I still would be. But the car. of the Rat Q: In the wake the Weird-Ohs Fink kits came r. Were and Freddy Flypoggestyle? of your those a ripoff es were three compani ROTH: There kits. One of them putting out monsterwith the (mascot) m, was Monogra There was Hawk Mouse’s stuff. models. It seemed with five or six company went like every model collection. I think into a monster had the best the Revell ones assembly. character called Q: There’s a by Sid Big Daddy played a Bikini Haig in “It’s … World” (1967) a couple ROTH: They had those in of Big Daddies Bingo” “Beach Blanket (Don) things, where the Rickles played Big Daddy. They need a Big Daddy those of in all movies to show y’s in that somebod charge, you know? make Q: How did you Did out in the ’60s? share of you get your pie? the Rat Fink lly, I ROTH: Financia statedon’t have any wealth ment, but my in the is in my wife, built all fact that I’ve the fact those cars, and the with straight that I’m These are my man upstairs. to dollars seem wealth, and the es, you take care of themselv d on any go overboar know? I don’t Life is drugs or stuff. you one thing. No affordable if watch your Ps and Qs.

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