Modern Masters Vol. 16: Mike Allred by TwoMorrows Publishing

M O D E R N

M A S T E R S

V O L U M E

S I X T E E N :

MIKE ALLRED

By Eric NolenWeathington

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Modern Masters Volume Sixteen:

MODERN MASTERS VOLUME SIXTEEN:

MIKE ALLRED edited and designed by Eric Nolen-Weathington front cover art by Mike Allred front cover color by Laura Allred all interviews in this book were conducted by Eric Nolen-Weathington and transcribed by Steven Tice and Eric Nolen-Weathington

TwoMorrows Publishing 10407 Bedfordtown Dr. Raleigh, North Carolina 27614 www.twomorrows.com • e-mail: twomorrow@aol.com First Printing • April 2008 • Printed in Canada Softcover ISBN: 978-1-893905-86-3 Trademarks & Copyrights All characters and artwork contained herein are ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred unless otherwise noted. Astroesque, The Atomics, Chow Yun-Fat, Citizen Nocturne, Dead Air, Frank Einstein, The Gear, G-Men from Hell, The Golden Plates, Grafik Musik, It Girl, Madman, Mott, Muscleman, Red Rocket 7 and all related characters ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred. They! ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred and Lee Allred. Everyman ™ and ©2008 Bernie Mireault and Michael Allred. Atom, Batgirl, Batman, Bat-Mite, Bigby Wolf, Bizarro, Black Canary, Brother Power the Geek, Catwoman, Clayface, Death-Man, Delirium, Doom Patrol, Dr. Fate, Ferro, Flash, Forager, Green Lantern, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hour-Man, Lightray, Lori Lemaris, Metal Man, Metamorpho, Mr. Freeze, Mr. Miracle, Mon-el, Orion, Plastic Man, Prez, Proty, Robin, Sandman, Scarecrow, Shade the Changing Man, Spectre, Supergirl, Superman, Teen Titans, Wildcat, Wonder Woman ™ and ©2008 DC Comics. Ancient One, Ant-Man, Avengers, The Beetle, Black Panther, Captain America, Daredevil, Dead Girl, Dr. Octopus, Dr. Strange, Doop, El Guapo, Fantastic Four, Green Goblin, Gwen Stacy, Impossible Man, Inhumans, Iron Man, Lizard. Mysterio, The Orphan, Peter Parker, Phat, Sinister Six, Spider-Man, Spike, Thor, Tike Alicar, U-Go Girl, Venus DeMilo, The Vision, The Vivisector, Wasp, X-Force, X-Statix, Yellowjacket ™ and ©2008 Marvel Characters, Inc. Next Issue Project ™ and ©2008 Image Comics, Inc. Flaming Carrot ™ and ©2008 Bob Burden. Mister X ™ and ©2008 Jaime Hernandez. Savage Dragon ™ and ©2008 Erik Larsen. Hellboy ™ and ©2008 Mike Mignola. Big Guy ™ and ©2008 Frank Miller and Geof Darrow. The Jam ™ and ©2008 Bernie Mireault. Jaguar Stories ™ and ©2008 Steven Seagle. The Rocketeer ™ and ©2008 Dave Stevens. Conan ™ and ©2008 Conan Properties International, LLC. Chewbacca, Han Solo, Leia Organa, Luke Skywalker ™ and ©2008 Lucasfilm LTD. Superfolks ™ and ©2008 Robert Mayer. Editorial package ©2008 Eric Nolen-Weathington and TwoMorrows Publishing.

Dedication To Donna, Iain and Caper, the greatest family in the world. Acknowledgements Mike Allred, for his time and contagious enthusiasm. Simon Miller, for his invaluable help gathering artwork. Please visit his website, www.gotsuperpowers.com, where among other things he sells Mike’s artwork. Tell him Modern Masters sent you. Special Thanks Laura Allred, Lambert Sheng, Rick McGee and the crew of Foundation’s Edge, Russ Garwood and the crew of Capital Comics, and John and Pam Morrow

Modern Masters Volume Sixteen:

MIKE ALLRED

Table of Contents Introduction by Darwyn Cooke . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Part One: The Journey—a Long Road to Comics . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 Interlude: Under the Influence . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 Part Two: All the Madmen—the Making of an Icon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 Part Three: It’s Only Rock ’n’ Roll—and Comics and Film . . . . . . . . . . . 37 Part Four: Bohemians Like You—Beatniks and Mutants . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 Part Five: Who Are You—the Mind of a Madman . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 63 Part Six: A Day in the Life—the Creative Process . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 81 Art Gallery . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 84

Introduction music, sculpture, building and acting. This passion for all the lively arts has led him down paths of discovery that most of us are too distracted or lazy or afraid to see. In turn, the energy and information harnessed by this diversity of creation is always brought back home to the comics. In Mike’s early work we can see how powerfully his musical influences are driving his aesthetic. His “second act” during Madman’s formative years reflects his growing interest in film and his study of more classic illustrators. It is the debut of AAA Pop that heralds Mike’s mature period. The visual inspirations have been submerged in a brilliant personal synthesis of style. This mature work has transcended the sum of its pop culture roots and has become pop culture personified.

’m in Oregon, and something strange is happening. It’s not raining. But it is damp. Everything in Oregon is always damp.... Above me undercranked clouds roll constantly, like a scene out of Coppola’s Rumblefish. I’m standing in front of the garage bays at a Clowesian strip mall as the mechanics busy themselves repairing a flat I sustained on the mountain beyond the town of Eugene. I’ve come here to meet with a friend, and hopefully get to know him better. Mike Allred is telling me about his early days in the Air Force. Oh, and his time as a German television personality. The clouds now seem to fit the surreal conversation. Like any artist given the chance, I’m hoping to divine what it is that gives his work its internal spark. I’ve been in Oregon just 24 hours and I’ve completely given up on pinning Mike’s muse to any one inspiration or situation. The range of Mike’s vision and experience is so wide that the act of creation is a part of every facet of his life.

Now that I’ve used up my allotment of fifty dollar words, I’d like to talk about the man himself. A couple times now, I’ve had the honor of sitting in on the Kirby Tribute Panel hosted by Mark Evanier, and the one thing I try to share with the audience is the fact that Kirby was an exceptional person regardless of his art. It was his character that made him a distinguished man. Such is the case with my friend, Mike. Like countless other artists new to comics, Mike was there for me when I got started. His offer to ink my run on Catwoman was such a shock that it gave me pause. I couldn’t understand why this idol of mine would waste his time finishing work by a newcomer. When we met in San Diego, I got an answer to that question that stopped me short. He simply loved the work and wanted to be a part of something that looked like fun. I don’t think I’ve ever expressed anywhere how much this meant to me. I almost cried then and there. More than any one thing, it was this act of generosity on Mike’s part that let me know I belonged in comics. His friendship and professional fellowship came at a time when I needed it most and I’ll never forget it.

All at once, the tumblers fall into place and I have my answer. It’s an answer that sidesteps obvious motivations like wealth or providing for your family. Mike Allred is driven by joy. The joy of creation. The joy of discovery. The sheer joy of life without a shred of self-consciousness. The questions Michael asks and the answers he alludes to are the result of a life well and truly lived. Unlike most of us, Mike has steadfastly refused to let the negative and cynical aspects of such a journey gain purchase. Whatever internal struggles he may face, his work remains unapologetically… joyful. Like most great artists there is an openness to Mike that has sparked passionate creation in most every medium of expression. Offhand I count comics, film, video, 4

You can marvel at the work on the pages to come, and I’m certain you’ll learn more about Mike’s genius than thousands of my scattershot observations could provide. What you won’t see is the loving family man giggling as he teases his daughter over endless slabs of whitecake and milk. You won’t see the monumental, almost electrically charged love that connects him to his partner, Laura. The cross-legged boy drawing Adam West from memory at

the coffee table. The matinee idol Madman and his beloved brood living free on an island of their making. But you’ll see the joy. Pure and bright and rarified as morning sun in Oregon. East of Snap City With love, Darwyn Cooke

Part 1:

The Journey— a Long Road to Comics and other friends’ houses. In the summertime, when it was suppertime, my mom had this cow bell that she would ring, [laughter] and we’d come running out from our secret, underground forts that we dug out. I have incredibly fond memories from my childhood. They’ve been rekindled recently, because my dad just died and I’ve been back there with family recounting all these things. And I’m sure I haven’t idealized it. I’m sure that it was really just that special. My dad had all these great art books, and we always had any number of art supplies and paper. There were books on cartooning, there were New Yorker cartoon collections. Dad had all kinds of different magazines—photography magazines, art magazines—an incredible library of material that just seemed endless. Every time we’d go to the bookshelves you could dig through and find something new, and they probably were new at the time. But there was always something fun and exciting. He would go on trips and come back, and we’d wake up and there would be toys there, whether it was a big, die cast metal plane or Peanuts figures. It was ideal—it really was. Until I guess I was about eleven years old when my parents split up. Soon after that puberty hit, so that idealized childhood was officially at an end.

MODERN MASTERS: You were born in Roseburg, Oregon. Is that correct? MIKE ALLRED: That’s correct. MM: Was Roseburg a small town? MIKE: I think it’s somewhere around 40-50,000. MM: So it’s not that small, but not too big. MIKE: It was a nice size. It really did have a classic American, Norman Rockwell vibe to it. MM: So you probably had fairly open access to the rest of the world then. MIKE: Right. There was a local TV station that was affiliated with one of the large networks, and they had a local cartoon show host. But the best thing about my childhood, as I remember it, was how safe it felt—how warm and comfortable and, I guess, freeing it felt. For instance, we lived up on a hill, but could walk down by ourselves to the main downtown street— which, again, had that Norman Rockwell string of shops. It had a large Payless drugstore that had the classic comic spinner rack, and other drugstores which had comics on the shelves. If you didn’t have the quarter you needed on that day, you would just slide the comic behind the back of the shelf and come back for it later. [laughter] You think back on it now, you think, “Where in the world can people live like that any more?” We walked to school and cut through people’s backyards and over hills. We had our own trails to get around from school

MM: You said your dad had a lot of art and photography books, but he was a psychologist by profession. Evidently he had some artistic leaning, as well. MIKE: Very much so. He was really a unique person. 6

We just had his memorial Saturday, and it was actually at the art center in Roseburg. The art center gave one of its big showrooms for the memorial, and it was packed. I can’t imagine having that many people show up for a funeral or memorial for me. I live a pretty isolated existence locally. I can honestly say my best friends live either several hours away or cross-country. Other than my childhood friends who live very far away, the closest friends I’ve made over the years have been people I’ve gotten to know at comic book conventions or through professional contact. So the idea of building up this kind of communal, enthusiastic representation... I was blown away. It was a day full of people sharing all kinds of amazing memories, and the thing about my dad, he was never satisfied with one thing. He went from hobby to hobby. For instance, he would scuba dive, he would sky dive, he flew gliders, he was an aviator. He built two old-style, open cockpit bi-planes in our basement. He built a single-seater, and after that he built a double-seater. He took a VW Bug that had been wrecked by a friend and turned it into a dune buggy, which he would drive on the hills behind our house. He was a hiker, and he also got into studying wildflowers and insects—butterfly collecting. He never stopped taking art courses—everything from watercolor to sculpting to eventually doing bronzes of his own sculptures. Man, I could go on—he was a writer. He was in a writing class when he was a kid, and they were tasked to send out their work with the idea that the teacher would then instruct them on how to take their rejection letters and apply them constructively. Well, my dad was accepted by The Saturday Evening Post! MM: Wow! MIKE: Yeah! Photography—he built a darkroom in our basement. One of his friends read one of Dad’s short stories at the memorial, and it got a crazed ovation it was so entertaining. [pauses and exhales] Honestly, if this was Friday and I was relating this stuff, I’d be bawling my eyes out. I miss him terribly. He had this deep, soothing voice that—he was just a really charming, friendly, nice, enthusiastic guy. Always looking at the humorous side of things. He worked with Ken Kesey at the VA hospital before Kesey wrote One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. MM: It sounds like you had a truly great environment in which to explore your creative side while growing up. Obviously, you’ve gone not just into art, but film and music. MIKE: Right, I guess that was the point I was trying to make. There was this environment growing up of “you can achieve whatever you want as long as you set your mind to it. You never have to take no for an answer or take criticism as a dead end.” Music, that was more from my mom. It’s no secret my dad lost his left hand—and this is one of the mysteries 7

Previous Page: Mike and brothers, Lee and Curtis, make the rounds through Roseburg, from Solo #7. Left: Mike (left) and big brother, Lee. Below: They!—Mike’s first serious attempt at creating a comic book, with Lee Allred as writer and Laura Allred as letterer (hence the “Allred x 3” credit). They! ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred and Lee Allred. Sandman ™ and ©2008 DC Comics.

Below: As with many other comic professionals and fans alike, the Batman TV show made a huge impact on Mike as a child. This “Batusi” image was meant to be the cover to Solo #7, but was replaced with a Wonder Girl watusi image. Next Page: Page 20 of the Dead Air graphic novel. Batman ™ and ©2008 DC Comics. Dead Air ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred.

about him. He never told anyone definitively how he lost his hand. His parents were married 77 years before they died—each of them nearly made it to a hundred—and that secret went to the grave with them. At the memorial it became a running joke. Each time somebody would come up, they would tell another story that Dad had related as to how he had lost his hand. Either getting it cut off in a propeller, a hand grenade, a shark attack.... [laughter] But that would have been his only real limitation, because most instruments take two hands. So I would definitely have to give my mom full credit for forcing piano lessons and guitar lessons on us when we were kids. [laughter] But that eventually took hold in my adolescent years when I discovered rock ’n’ roll and built this incredible record collection. But, again, that was the idea, that if something interested you to just really sponge it up and figure out why it interests you and try to apply it. I found that all of those things can be applied to what I do now working as a cartoonist. There’s a musicality to cartooning—rhythm and tones and texturing. And, of course, everything

you get from cinematic storytelling can be applied to comic books. This thoughtful process that we were taught growing up has become very useful in my everyday life. MM: What was the first thing to really grab you? Was it comics, television, music...? MIKE: I think all of these things were taken for granted, because they were always there. Every time we went on a trip, my parents would give us some money and we would stock up on comic books. It was just something that was there. I remember getting up on a card table, and my big brother was yelling, “Dance, Mike, dance!” He was shaking the table to make me dance. It was like some bizarro Western, but instead of shooting at my feet he was shaking the table. [laughter] The next thing I remember I was waking up in the hospital with a concussion. [laughter] But I was surrounded by comic books on the bed. And there was always an interest in going to the movies. Again, I’m not painting a false picture; the town really was an idyllic, wonderful town. Jackson Street was the main drive, and Johnny’s Toy Store was there, Rickett’s Music Store was there, but also the Indian Theater was there. On Saturdays, if you had bags of bread from the local bakery you could get in free, so we’d bring the bags and go to the matinee. This was one of those great old theaters with the balcony, and we’d go to the balcony and hang over the top. Some of my most vivid childhood memories are films I saw there. It was all there: the music, movies—TV not so much until probably right before I hit puberty when we got cable. Before that we were lucky to get two and a half channels. When we got cable in the ’70s, every afternoon when I’d get home from school and crack on the TV there’d be Star Trek, Batman, Land of the Giants, Lost in Space, Get Smart, Leave it to Beaver... Twilight Zone, Outer Limits. These were syndicated rerun shows, so I didn’t have to wait a week to see the next episode, I’d see them every day. It was great to all of a sudden get a color TV and cable and see all this stuff. So I can’t really say one thing took hold, because everything was just there.

MM: Were there any specific comics that grabbed you? MIKE: My older brother had this great instinct for comics, and it was years later that I realized that the comics I was exposed to were all of the best stuff. I didn’t know I was digging Jack Kirby until later. As an adult I was re-exposed to comics, and that led to this incredible crash course in revisiting all this stuff I had seen as a child, but now with an intellectual appreciative eye. I guess what really hit me the hardest first was music. I had a paper route, and I spent my paper route money on getting all the Beatles albums, The Who albums, Rolling Stones albums, Mott the Hoople albums, David Bowie albums, and then I studied their progression— how their earliest albums sounded and how it led to what they did later. Then I got my first electric guitar for Christmas. So music was probably my first real passion, but I was always drawing. I never stopped drawing. There’s a painting my parents had commissioned of me and my brother as kids laying on our stomachs on the floor with comic books open in front of us and us drawing. We’d make our own comic books—the classic taking sheets of paper, folding them in half, drawing the panels, and stapling them together. MM: Would you actually draw a complete story, or just stop part-way through? A lot of artists I’ve talked to who drew comics as kids would lose interest after a couple of pages and move on to something else.

at this time. I had a childhood friend whose dad owned a local radio station which was AM/FM. They had a night rock program where they played all the classic rock and then contemporary top 40 stuff during the day. They pretty much ran the gamut of pop and rock music. My friend, his son, became a DJ and the program director for the radio station. There was also a radio station at the college, so I thought, "Well, let me try that." So I got into broadcasting and also television production.

MIKE: Well, usually the story would only last four pages. [laughter] There was nothing too intricate involved, nothing too ambitious. But there were recurring characters. We eventually developed our own favorite characters and worked on them. I can actually tell you the exact date when I kind of gave up on comics as a child, and that was with the death of Gwen Stacy. I loved Gwen Stacy and I thought that was such a betrayal. [laughter] I thought, “Why am I wasting my money on this?” and I spent all of my money on records from that moment on. And I was at that age where the rock ’n’ roll lifestyle looked really appealing. It was probably in college where I hit my first crossroads. I did well—I majored in art initially. In fact, I was awarded Painting of the Year at the end of year gallery show. So I was encouraged. But I started to realize that it was going to be incredibly difficult to make a living in art. Keep in mind I hadn’t even considered comic books

MM: You met Laura while you were at college. Was she there for art as well? MIKE: Yup, she’s a talented artist in her own right. I remember one piece she did in college where she drew these teddy bears and they looked life-like; they were richly rendered. She’s always had this amazing color sense, and beyond that she’s gorgeous and I just love her. We met magically. I lived in these apartments at the top of a hill that had a shuttle that would go to campus. This is 9

MIKE: I scored high enough that I taught at the Air Force Academy in their television production studio. I taught public affairs officers how to address the media. For instance, if a jet crashed, a public affairs officer is sent out to tell the media what happened and if people were in danger and how it can be prevented in the future and all that sort of thing. In order to get them comfortable with the media, they teach them how to do everything; they would actually produce their own news programs at the studio. So in order to be able to teach them how to do everything, we had to learn how to do everything ourselves, from shooting with a camera on location or in-studio, to editing, to on camera work, to audio production. It was at the Air Force Academy, before going to Europe, that I met a guy named Charlie Custis on a security detail. He was a big movie fan and on this detail we talked about all the movies we liked. He became my movie buddy, and it turns out he also had this intense passion for collecting comic books. He saw my artwork and my paintings we had hanging up at our place, and I’d written a screenplay, too, called Dead Air, and I was drawing storyboards for it. I thought it would be really easy to sell the screenplay if I could also show what it looked like. He just said, “Wow, you should turn this into a comic book.” Charlie had a whole room in his place that was filled with boxes of comics, perfectly laid out and organized so you could find anything instantly. He had stuff that I remembered having as a kid, but was also completely up on what was new. This was right after Watchmen and Dark Knight broke big, and he gave me those books. He was the kind of guy that would buy extras, one to read and one to bag and board. He was a speculator, but he also was passionate about comics and loved the art form. He gave me all this stuff, so I thought the least I could do was read them, and I just fell crazy in love with what comics were doing. This was the advent of the prestige format with the cardstock covers, and the graphic novel format was just starting to break out.

October 22, my freshman year. I was getting on the bus to go home and getting off the bus is the most gorgeous girl I’d ever seen in my life. What was odd was that we stared at each other without any embarrassment. Normally if you’re staring at a girl and she looks at you, you look away, because you don’t want her to think you’re staring. But there was no embarrassment at all this time. We were really drawn to each other. As we walked past each other we both turned and kept staring at each other. I got on the bus and as it pulled away I thought, “What an idiot!” I’d been at school for a while and I’d never seen her before, and I was afraid I’d never see her again. Well, later that afternoon at the apartment a knock comes at the door. I open the door and there are two girls, including the gorgeous girl I’d seen earlier that day. The other girl asked for my roommate, who had borrowed some of her record albums. While the girl came in to get the records back, I blurted out to Laura, “Hey, you want to go for a walk?” She was like, “Yeah, sure.” She told her friend she was going to take off, and we went for a walk and nine months later we got married. [laughter] It was just magic. I quit college to take this job at the radio station. Then Laura became pregnant. There was an Air Force recruiter who would come into the radio station to give us Air Force spots. He was a really nice guy, so we would talk. I mentioned my wife was pregnant and he said, “You know, in the Air Force everything’s taken care of. You don’t have to worry about hospital costs or anything like that. We give you housing.” He gave me the full spiel. “You can see the world, and you can do exactly what you’re doing now.” “What?” “Oh, yeah. The Air Force has their own disc jockeys and television reporters and filmmakers.” I looked into it and I ended up being a broadcaster for the Air Force. MM: What exactly did you do? 10

Among this stuff that Charlie gave me was the first four issues of Mister X, which was designed by Dean Motter who also designed record albums. So it had this really keen design to it—really slick. It’s actually a design I’m applying now to Madman Atomic Comics, which is when you open it up you’ve got double-spread credits page. That’s something I’ve always wanted to do, but just never got around to it. But that was the book that made me want to try making comics, because it had this real designy feel to it and that really drew me in. I already loved storytelling and I already loved art and I had a childhood passion for comic books, but that unlocked everything else. It also introduced me to the world of independent comics and the Hernandez Bros. and all the stuff that was being done by single creators. That led to the stuff from Comico with Matt Wagner and Bernie Mireault, and First Comics with Nexus and this amazing illustrator and terrific storyteller in Steve Rude and Mike Baron. And most of the Nexus covers were painted and looked like classic paperback covers or those lushly painted covers from Gold Key on books like Magnus, Robot Fighter or their movie and TV adaptations. I was so excited. It was like diving for treasure. Then there was the recent success of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and the fact that two guys came up with this monstrously successful creation. All of this hitting me all at once was just hugely inspirational, so I set about to adapt my screenplay into a comic book series. I sent out proposals to Renegade Press, which published Flaming Carrot which I loved, to Comico, etc., etc. It got accepted by Renegade and they were going to publish it—this was right as we were going to Europe—then I got a letter from Deni Loubert, the publisher, saying she was calling it quits; she couldn’t survive any longer and was giving up publishing.

MIKE: I was a TV reporter for the American Forces Radio and Television Service, and my experience there was bookended by two hugely significant events. The first was at the Ramstein Air Base, where there was an air show and two Italian jets collided in mid-air and one went into the crowd. This was around the time personal video cameras were becoming popular, and we were tasked to gather all the different footage we could which we then sent to the networks in the States. The first story I did there was on a helicopter rescue worker from the crash site. The last thing that happened before we came back to the States was the fall of the Berlin Wall. That was incredible. Right before the wall came down, I was able to interview these East German refugees who had risked jumping over the wall to find a new life in the West. We had a translator

MM: Had you already finished the book? MIKE: No, but I kept drawing. Renegade had planned to release it as a four-issue mini-series, so when I finished it was about 100 pages and it was just going to sit in a drawer while I enjoyed Europe. MM: What were you doing in Europe? 11

Previous Page: A page from Mike’s vampire saga, “Citizen Nocturne,” which ran in the pages of Graphique Musique. Below: Mike was a big fan of Bob Burden’s indie icon, the Flaming Carrot. Citizen Nocturne, Madman ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred. Flaming Carrot ™ and ©2008 Bob Burden.

Right: Mike meets Will Eisner for the first time in Frankfurt, Germany, of all places. Below: Panel from Jaguar Stories—Mike’s ticket back to the States. Next Page: A page from Everyman, the Mike Allred/Bernie Mireault collaboration for Marvel Comics’ Epic imprint. Jaguar Stories ™ and ©2008 Steven Seagle. Everyman ™ and ©2008 Bernie Mireault and Michael Allred.

with us, and it was fascinating to learn firsthand what their lives were like beforehand and what they had heard of and hoped for that they would take such a huge risk for. I was sent all over Europe: Holland, London, Greece... it was amazing. Mostly I covered human interest stories. In London I was able to walk around and visit all the cool comic book stores like Forbidden Planet. In fact, I first met Neil Gaiman at a signing for Black Orchid and the first issue of Sandman there. I told him who I was and that someday I would like to make comic books. He was nice, and Dave McKean was there and he was cool. MM: You met Will Eisner while you were in Europe, too, right? MIKE: Yeah, he had come to Europe to promote a documentary called Comic Book Confidential. This was in Frankfurt, Germany, and while we were waiting for the signing I saw this really neat poster for the film in the shop. I asked if they would sell it to me and they pointed me to the movie theater where they were going to show the film. So Laura and I hiked over there thinking maybe I’d score a really neat movie poster.

I banged on the door and a guy opened up. He didn’t speak any English, but he recognized I was speaking English so he waved us in. We walked in and Will Eisner and his wife were sitting there. [laughter] They were just waiting there for someone to take them to the comic shop for the signing, and he jumped to his feet—he was so thrilled to hear people speaking English. [laughter] We had this great conversation and I showed him my stuff, which I had brought to show him at the signing. He was fantastic, and from then on he remembered that meeting and followed my progress— almost like a godfather. It was an awesome relationship. MM: It was through a series called Jaguar Stories, which was written by Steven Seagle whom you had met while stationed in Colorado, that you were able to move back to the States and into comics full time. How did that come about? MIKE: Steve’s from Colorado, and I met him there while at the Air Force Academy. He was the first professional comic book creator I ever met. I met him at a comic book store when I was there checking out the new comics and the guy at the cash register said, “Hey that guy over there is the writer of Kafka.” I think that was put out by Renegade, which is ironic since they were originally going to be the publisher of Dead Air. He kind of showed me the ropes and gave

that. We hoped to continue it with a regular series, but that didn’t happen and then Epic folded up. It was kind of a scary time personally. I was trying to make this whole new career and fulfill my childhood fantasies of being a comic book artist, but it was also a time when the industry was really shaky. There were the doomsayers saying the comic book industry was on its last legs, and there was the black-&-white implosion. But it was also exciting, because we were having some minor successes that were encouraging us to keep going.

me some tips, especially from the writing standpoint. Now, I was a professional journalist, but he showed me what a comic book script looked like, which is very similar in many ways to a screenplay. It was really great to have Steve’s tutelage. We’d been in Europe a while when Steve called me up and asked me if I wanted to work with him on this 12issue series called Jaguar Stories for Comico, which had this really generous page rate. It also meant a full year of employment, so it was worth the risk of putting my broadcasting career behind me and taking a stab at being a fulltime comic book creator. For me it was like, “Okay, opportunity is knocking,” so I put in my papers to move out. The concept was like a different telling of “The Boy Who Cried Wolf.” There was a character who saw this underworld person who may or may not be able to turn into a jaguar. It had David Lynchian tones to it. You weren’t quite sure what was actually happening and what was merely a figment of this character’s imagination. It was a brilliant concept, and we got about halfway through it. I think I was penciling the fifth issue when Comico went Chapter 11. At that point it was a scramble. In trying to find some way to make a living I was just about ready to start sending out tapes to television stations and radio stations and go back to that. But I was able to have my personal work which I had continued to do be picked up as Graphique Musique by Slave Labor Graphics and then in full color by Caliber as Grafik Musik. The real lifesaver though was selling The Everyman to Marvel Epic. This was a collaboration with Bernie Mireault, who I was a big fan of and who was a mutual friend of Matt Wagner’s.

MM: It was during this time you almost got the chance to work on Sandman. Was that something you sought out, or did they come to you? MIKE: Matt Wagner had shown Neil Gaiman some of my work, and Neil called me up on the phone and asked me if I’d be interested in doing an issue of Sandman—and this was during its first flush of success. Rolling Stone had just done this big article on comic books with a particular focus on Sandman. So for me it was like, “Wow, this is it—my big break.” MM: This was during the second year of Sandman?

MM: Were you mailing out pitches or were you trying to meet editors at conventions...? MIKE: At that point it was mostly telephone calls and mail. Although, by the time we came back to the States and bought our first house in Eugene, Oregon, Matt Wagner had moved to Portland. His Grendel series got caught in the undertow of the Comico debacle, so we had a lot to talk about. I went to my first comic book convention in Portland and that’s where I met Bob Schreck. He and his then-wife Diana Schutz had worked with Matt at Comico. They had been major players there before it was bought out, and they were both working at Dark Horse. Matt was starting a relationship with Dark Horse, and I met Mike Richardson, so there was some familiarity that began there. MM: Were you just pitching your personal projects to the smaller companies, or were you also trying to break in at Marvel or DC? MIKE: I think my first attempt to try to break in with Marvel and DC was The Everyman, so we scored with 13

Below: Sample art from Mike’s first tryout for Sandman. Next Page: Panels and pages from Grafik Musik. Sandman ™ and ©2008 DC Comics. Grafik Musik and all related characters ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred.

MIKE: I think so, yeah. It would have been issue #24 or so that I would have drawn. Neil told me his editor, Karen Berger, would be calling me, and she did. She sent me a script and asked me to draw four pages. This was on a Friday, and over the weekend I did five pages of the script and a painting. I was just so excited and I wanted to really show her my work ethic. In this case it didn’t work, because the following week I was expecting to get a phone call saying, “Wow, you really impressed me!” Instead I didn’t

get any call at all. [laughter] I eventually called Karen and asked if she’d gotten the work. She said she had, but that it just wasn’t there yet. She saw potential in my work, but said it needed to have something more before she would put me on Sandman. I was crushed. I’d been thinking that I’d made it, that I had my foot in the door. It was devastating. I was full of disappointment and anger and rage. “Who’s this Karen Berger!?! Isn’t this Neil’s deal? Doesn’t he call the shots!?!” That was the moment—and I’ve told Karen this, and I think the world of her now—that I was ready to just put my tail between my legs and crawl off. I had to really figure out where my commitment was and fortunately I was getting encouragement with my own work, with Grafik Musik and Creatures of the Id—which introduced the Frank Einstein character—both getting some buzz. That’s when I dug in and decided to see what I could do with my own stuff. So it put my focus back on my own work, and controlling every aspect of my work and not thinking of working for the Big Two as the ideal. Laura began collaborating with me with Grafik Musik. Bernie Mireault did the colors on The Everyman, though. He painted on animation cels, where you would take the black-&-white artwork and paint on the back side of it with cel vinyl paint just like you would in animation. It created a really weird depth to it and gave it a unique look. Ever since then with only rare exceptions, Laura has colored my work. It almost feels empty or odd if she’s not coloring my work. MM: You’re color blind to an extent, right? MIKE: It’s the red-green color blindness. Sometimes it’s difficult for me to tell a blue from a purple, or a green from a red-like the Christmas colors where the values are the same. Some colors I can make a good guess at because of the value, but a yellow might look like a green ochre to me. I can see and appreciate colors. I’m a big fan of old technicolor films. I can see them, it’s just sometimes I can’t tell them apart.

MM: Obviously Laura brings her own color sense to the work, but I was wondering if your color blindness plays any part into how vibrant the color palettes in your comics tend to be. MIKE: I don’t know. We work side by side. My drawing table is right next to her computer setup. Originally she would do it the old way where you would take a copy of the black-&-white artwork, watercolor it, and then draw a line out from every single color and write the distinct color codes. That would then be sent off for separations. This was another reason why things were so exciting for us, because we only had to do that for maybe a couple of years before we got our first computer. That was when computer coloring just started to kick in, which Steve Oliff pioneered. Laura got advice from him and everybody was learning at the same time. Once we were doing things on the computer I was able to look at it as she was doing it and say, “I kinda wanted a darker color there” or “Can that be brighter?” I could pitch in, but mostly Laura would put the colors in there and it would be better than anything I could have imagined. [laughter] That was exciting to have that happen and to become more and more independent. All these technological developments make us more independent and more in control of our work. And we’re constantly experimenting. Just to leap ahead to today, we’re experimenting with more animation techniques—stuff I’ve played with over time. For instance, we did a one-shot called Spaceman where Lawrence Marvit, who’s an animation production designer, did these painted backgrounds from my layouts. Then I drew the figures and we put them over the painted backgrounds so that it looked like a classic animated cartoon. It was work-intensive and time-consuming, but with everything we’ve done we’ve always tried to break it down and be as efficient as possible so we can be more productive. Because ultimately we want to have a steady, top quality monthly book. That’s really difficult for someone who does everything—writing, drawing, and also the in-house coloring with Laura. But we’re breaking it down to figure out exactly how much time we can spend on every level of the work. It’s exciting any time we find a new way to increase the quality as well as the efficiency of the book. 15

Interlude:

Under the Influence

Jack Kirby I’m not alone in finding him to be one of the most powerful and inspiring artists ever. His work had surrounded me in my youth; I just didn’t know that. It was years later when I rediscovered comic books and approached them in a more historical way that I learned the genealogy and significance of comic book creators, and that’s when I realized that all this stuff which made an impact and was very present in my head was work done by Jack Kirby. I admire his energy, his passion, and, as I’ve learned more about him, even the way he lived his life. He was a man of great integrity. He was very dignified, the way he handled himself through adversity and through success. He was a humble man. I had the great honor of meeting him a couple of times, and he was an extremely generous and kind person. His work just explodes with energy. Even the quiet moments in his work, where there are just a couple of people walking down the street, there’s still something that crackles about it, there’s something that’s just alive about it, and that’s something that I want in my work.

Fantastic Four, Inhumans

Alex Toth Here, again, somebody that was very much in my childhood, but I didn’t realize it. A lot of the cartoons that I would see when I got home from school would be stuff that he had designed, the most famous being Space Ghost, The Herculoids, and all that crowd. But, also there were a lot of comic books that he had done. What’s different about Alex Toth, say, from Kirby, is he was all over the place. There’s not really a seminal work that you can point to and say, “This is where you can find why Alex Toth is great.” It’s more of a treasure hunt, from the books that he did for Standard-everything from romance to science fiction and horror comics-up through his work with DC Comics in the ’70s, like the stories in House of Mystery. What I keep going back to with Toth is his economy. He only put on the page what absolutely needed to be there. There isn’t a lot of flourish or showing off or over-compensating with texture that just doesn’t need to be there. He could draw a very simple, pure line drawing, and it would have all the energy and impact of another drawing flooded with bursts and crosshatching and washes. There was so much confidence in his work that he could make it simple and know that, “Okay, it’s done. That’s all that was needed.” I love that about his work. Doom Patrol ™ and

Bruno Premiani Bruno Premiani is one of my biggest influences. I shout his name from the rooftops whenever I have the chance. He doesn’t get nearly the attention he deserves. He’s up there with Kirby and Toth in my book. He wasn’t as prolific or diverse as those guys, but his style and the energy in his work are fantastic.

Frank Frazetta

There’s a dynamism to his work, and a sexiness. Not just the buxom women that Frazetta is famous for, but with any of his drawings, there’s a sexiness to it, a sensual quality. And I’m also talking about his comic book work, not just his paintings. I’m a huge fan of his comic book work, his ink drawings, the Famous Funnies Buck Rogers covers that he did, and all in that era is hugely influential for me. I definitely look at his ink work, and the romance stories that he did—beautiful, lush, sensual. Even if it’s just some guy walking down the street in a suit and a hat, there’s just something really alive about it, and I love that. It’s a quality that you can try to imitate, but you’ll fail. It’s proof positive that every artist has to find what’s natural and special about themselves, because that’s the essence that can’t be duplicated. You can bring influences into your work, but ultimately there has to be something special and unique about what you do in order for it to stand out on its own. That’s what I learned from studying Frazetta’s work.

Barry Windsor-Smith bridged the gap between what was taken for granted in my childhood, and then my rediscovery of comics as an adult. Right before heading off to college, I went to a second-hand bookstore. In this box in the back were all of the Barry Smith Conans. They were being sold as a package, and I had just gotten a check for life-guarding at a summer camp that was burning a hole in my pocket. They just jumped out at me, and I had to have them. And I still have them. A lot of comic books, as they become collected, I’ll go ahead and sell or give away my original comic books and then just have the nice collection on a bookshelf, but I have a real affection for those Barry Smith Conans. And a lot of the other work that he’s done, too—his more lush, illustrative stuff—it’s all good. But “Red Nails” is one of my single favorite comic book stories of all time. I just love it intensely.

Barry Windsor-Smith

Steve Ditko

The Indie Crowd When I was rediscovering comic books and being inspired to attempt doing them myself, the alternative artist crowd was a huge influence on me, and by far the biggest influence on my work were the Hernandez Brothers, followed closely by Charles Burns, Dan Clowes, Matt Wagner, and Chester Brown. Those guys just really lit me up. And then of course, the groundbreakers who I eventually was blessed to socialize with in the Legend group: Frank Miller, Mike Mignola, Art Adams, Geof Darrow, Paul Chadwick...

The Illustrators Dave Stevens has been a big influence for a lot of the same reasons that Frank Frazetta has. He’s a top-flight illustrator, but also has a sensual quality. Mark Schultz falls into that category for me, as well—classic, old-school illustration. Steve Rude, too. They’re all highly skilled artists that have dug deep and honed their craft. A lot of comic book artists make the mistake of only learning how to draw from other comic book artists. These artists are classically taught and have an appreciation for all the basics and older illustrators. When that kind of craft is applied to sequential storytelling and the comic book art form, it just comes alive.

Steve Ditko had a naturalism to his work, especially with SpiderMan. He had this spindly, skinny super-hero, but when he lifts up the tons of wreckage that he’s trapped under, and you can feel it. That’s the kind of believability that Steve Ditko could convey.

Part 2:

All the Madmen— the Making of an Icon just thought, “That’s cool. I’ve already thought of Frank Einstein, so what does ‘Frank’ represent?” Frank Sinatra had this sort of cool, confident, tough image that worked perfectly as a contrast to Albert Einstein. So when I came up with the story and had the scientists naming this poor John Doe after two of their heroes, it just seemed to fit; it worked really nicely.

MM: Let’s talk about the process you went through developing the Frank Einstein character into Madman.

MIKE: Frank Einstein was my favorite character and was becoming my most popular character based on the letters and feedback I was getting. At this time our kids were starting school and they were telling their friends what their dad did for a living, and I wanted to do something that they would enjoy, too, because my work up ’til then was a little esoteric and experimental and, honestly, flailing in many ways. I was still trying to find what I really wanted to do. So I dug deep into my childhood and my affection for the characters and books that I loved then, and I decided I would bring that to my Frank Einstein character. Initially he was going to be this kind of ghostly character, and in many ways an homage to Will Eisner, and it was going to be called The Spook. I printed up these glow-in-the-dark Spook t-shirts and made up a dummy book with a cover and put it in a bag and board so it would look like a published book. WonderCon was coming up—I guess this would have been ’91, because that’s when I met Kevin Eastman.

MM: How did the first Madman mini-series come about with Tundra? MIKE: One thing that worked to my benefit was Kevin Eastman with Tundra—I don’t know if you’re familiar with Apple Records, but with the phenomenal success of the Beatles, they created their own record label. It was to be this place where musicians were treated “the right way” and the creators came first. Tundra was kind of presented by Kevin Eastman in the same way: “Creator rights come first. This is going to be the model for all publishers.” So I just felt really grateful to be a part of it. Also, Kevin Eastman was, and is, a very generous person in giving these advances, and a lot of big names were going to have their personal creations spotlighted through Tundra. Let’s just say that some of them weren’t as fast as Kevin had hoped they would be, and so a lot of stuff either came out quite slowly or just not at all. At that time, I became really good friends with a young, phenomenally talented creator named Al Columbia. He was being tasked to take over Big Numbers from Bill Sienkiewicz, and this was going to be one of the big releases from Tundra. I would go to North Hampton a lot, where Tundra was headquartered and Al was living there. He was a huge inspiration to me— amazingly talented. I’ve got a couple of his Madman pieces in the Madman Gallery book. There’s this legendary story of how he was working on the fourth issue of Big Numbers—and I saw it, by the way. It was beautiful work. But it just disappeared, and Al ended up disappearing, too. It’s a story that’s become quite mythical.

MM: Frank Einstein is a terrific play on words that fits the character so perfectly. Not only do you have the homages to Frank Sinatra and Albert Einstein, but you have the obvious Frankenstein reference. Not to mention the word frank itself means open and honest, which Frank certainly is. What was the stroke of inspiration that made you settle on that name? MIKE: It’s the kind of thing that, once you think about it, you want to make sure nobody else gets it before you do. You’re just terrified and paranoid, just like when I thought up the name Madman. I mean, Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, Madman... I was like, “Oh, please let this be mine.” Around that time I had opened myself up to other music outside the rock ’n’ roll that had filled my head for so many years, and I had been listening to a lot of standards, particularly a lot of Frank Sinatra. And I 20

MM: Yeah, I was working in a comic shop when all this was going on, and all the rumors were flying around. MIKE: I consider myself very lucky for having seen this amazing work, but there were stories that it was destroyed, that it was stolen... but it was the death of this monumental project of Alan Moore’s. This was his next big thing to follow Watchmen. So this was the kind of stuff that was surrounding Tundra, but Al was my best buddy in this new Tundra family that I had. Being new and relatively unknown—both of us—we would be at the shows together, and this is when we’d go to every single comic book show there was. It was a lot of traveling and we bonded through that. And I learned a lot from him and just what real, pure talent was. But because of how hard I was forced to work in the Air Force.... I mean, I couldn’t just call in sick. They would make you go to sick call and prove that you were sick. [laughter] That’s one of the downsides to being in the military, at least from my experience. But what happened was you’d develop a really strong work ethic. Getting out of that situation and having this great opportunity with my own creation at this company that was generating a lot of excitement, I would have felt foolish if I hadn’t applied the work ethic I had learned in the Air Force to my now chosen profession. So I did; I worked passionately all day and night to make sure my book was ready to go when it was scheduled to. Because of that I was rewarded again and again, because, “Hey, this guy is doing the work, and we like what he’s doing.” So the people at Tundra would talk about it and call and every department would have ideas about marketing it. Going to all these different shows I had an

illustration of Frank Einstein in this swirling time warp. As I was making new friends and meeting other creators I admired, I would be working on it. Nobody really knew who I was. It’s not like people were lining up to get me to sign anything. “Here, I’ve got an issue of Grafik Musik I want you to sign”—that didn’t really happen. [laughter] But people were seeing what I was working on, and Dave Stevens, who became a really great friend, drew something on there; Al drew something on there. People would come up and say, “Ooh, what’s that?” And they would see guys like Dave Stevens and Geof Darrow drawing on it and they would say, “I want to draw something on it.” All of these amazing creators over the course of that convention season drew all over this thing. Tundra just got really excited about promoting anything that I was doing and they made a big print out of it and came up with a big contest, “How many creators can you name?” They just put a lot of promotion not only into the first series, but then had the faith to allow me to do a full-color series. MM: At that point, had you developed a plan of where you wanted to take the Madman series? MIKE: I was really getting into Tintin at the time, and I loved these self-contained adventure books. The idea 21

Both Pages: The evolution of a Madman. From Frank Einstein as he appeared in Creatures of the Id (inked by Bernie Mireault), through name changes as The Spook and The Goon, and finally the emergence of Madman in the Tundra mini-series. Frank Einstein, Madman ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred.

Below: The infamous eye-popping scene from Madman #1. Next Page: Madman #1, page 22.

then was to do Madman Adventures, where they would be these self-contained, squarebound books in full color. They were going to be 48 pages each, but the first one had 64 pages. The folks at Tundra said, “Well, let’s also release it as two traditional, saddle-stitched comics and give people the choice.” That became so successful that they talked me into sticking with the traditional comic book format. That caused a little confusion at the time, but from then on it was “This is what Madman is about: a traditional comic book action hero.” By this point Kevin kind of got tired—I think he felt he was being taken for granted—and also he was passionate about Heavy Metal magazine, which he had purchased, and he put all of his energy into that. Kitchen Sink Press picked up the loose ends, and I was a free agent. Madman had won the Harvey for Best New Series and was up for all of these different awards, but what was going to happen to it was a big question mark. I had met and gotten to be really good friends with Bob Schreck, who had been the marketing director at Comico but who was now going to be the

marketing director at Dark Horse. Schreck was like, “Hey, what are you going to do with Madman?” I told him, “Well, I haven’t really thought about it. I’m waiting for an offer from Denis Kitchen.” Schreck said, “Don’t do anything. Let me get back to you.” He got with Mike Richardson and made me an offer I couldn’t refuse. Schreck was interested in becoming an editor and he became my editor on Madman, but in many ways he was my own personal marketing director while Dark Horse looked for a new marketing director. For that and many other reasons, Dark Horse launched Madman even higher into the stratosphere. MM: Going back to the first mini-series, you said you wanted something your kids could enjoy, but the first scene of the first book has Madman digging a guy’s eyeball out of its socket and popping it in his mouth. That isn’t a very kid-friendly moment. MIKE: Yeah, that’s true. That’s the most controversial moment in Madman history. I was making a transition. The books that up to that point had really blown me away and that I aspired to were things like Love & Rockets, Eightball, and even more extreme stuff like Yummy Fur, which is really out there and definitely an acquired taste. There was real talent behind that work. I mean Chester Brown, Dan Clowes, the Hernandez Bros.—these guys are some of the best artists that have ever worked in comics, and they’re completely unique. So I was aspiring to that level of quality and uniqueness, but at the same time I was being pulled by the nostalgia of my childhood. There was a battle going on there. What was my work going to be? It really was my children that made me decide that what I wanted to do was all-ages work that could be timeless in some way. I then found other things I had great affection for, like the big, finned cars of the ’50s and the weird household item design work that typified each decade. To keep the Madman/Snap City universe from looking

dated or faddish, I wanted it to represent several decades. MM: Kind of like the design approach they were taking with Batman: The Animated Series around that same time? MIKE: Yeah, that’s right. The first time I remember watching Batman: The Animated Series was when I was signing copies of special editions of Madman. But Frank Einstein could have an iPod, for instance, and the surroundings would have items from any time period. I liked not limiting myself or isolating any kinds of input or influence or inspiration and having this world where anything can happen at any time. MM: As Madman says himself in the second issue, “Everything is possible.” MIKE: Yeah. And that’s why I keep going back to Madman, because it’s where anything is possible and there’s nobody telling me I can’t do it. That said, I want a consistency to the book. It’s accepted that Frank is able to get into people’s heads, and that whole eye-eating element becomes an illusion. That kind of takes a little edge off the horrific, graphic nature of it, though some people really like the book for that, but that’s how I’ve been able to come to terms with it. MIKE: That’s exactly right. There’s something I try to get across to my kids. It takes talent, material, and exposure. You have talent, and if you use that talent you create material—you create something with that talent. Once you have the material, it needs to be exposed. That’s the formula for success. If something is of value and of worth, if it exists and is given the proper exposure, it will be successful. It is that simple. Of course, luck is a part of that formula, and I’ve described how lucky I was with the people I met and the circumstances around that time. I was incredibly lucky. I’ll stand up for my work, and I feel there is something very unique and special about Madman. I have a lot of affection for it, and

MM: How much of your initial success do you attribute to the promotion and unique marketing strategies you had? You had t-shirts, buttons, the balsa wood gliders, frisbees... it all helped Madman stand out, because you would see it in all these different forms. MIKE: There’s no doubt. I’m not for a second going to try to convince anybody that my talent was cream rising to the top. [laughter] MM: The key is that it doesn’t matter how talented you are, if no one sees your work then you won’t find your audience. 23

Above: Madman was flying high with the balsa wood glider promotion. Bottom: Madmunny— one item in a long line of Madman merchandise. Next Page: Panel and full page from Vertigo’s The Geek. Madman ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred. Brother Power the Geek ™ and ©2008 DC Comics.

I’m obviously proud of it. It’s my favorite thing to work on, and it’s something that I can grow with yet is still anchored in a certain history and consistency. But there is no doubt in my mind that if I hadn’t met certain people at certain times and they didn’t collaborate with me in all of these fun marketing ideas or allow me to try my marketing ideas, none of this would have happened the way it did. The gliders, for instance. When I was a kid we had these styrofoam Marvel character gliders. You put them together like you would a balsa wood glider, but they were a styrofoam type material and they had fullcolor printing on them. When they were discussing marketing ideas, I was doing hand-painted yo-yos, because nobody knew how to manufacture them. Dark Horse later found somebody that could. But I came up with the idea of making gliders and they did the legwork and found they could do them relatively inexpensively with a black-&-white image on balsa wood. I wanted it on the body originally, but they could only print on the wings. Since my original idea of drawing him flying wouldn’t work, I drew him as if he were tied down to the wing. And they made thousands of these things. MM: We had a bunch of them at the shop when I worked there. We kept one hanging from the ceiling above the cash register, and there were two or three that 24

we’d throw around the store every now and then. [laughter] MIKE: The first time I ever saw them was at WonderCon, which remains my very favorite convention. We love the San Francisco area, and the convention has always seemed like it’s small enough that the creators can find time to hang out together, but big enough that it’s worth going to and it’s exciting. So they were passing out the gliders at WonderCon— just giving them out in fistfuls. No matter where you were on the convention floor there were gliders flying over your head. [laughter] Everybody had an unlimited supply of them—they weren’t hoarding them like they were collectibles, they were flying them. The convention center and hotel staff were going crazy. The gliders were getting stuck up in the light fixtures and they were afraid it would start a fire. They were everywhere; it was manic. It was so much fan, and how could that not have brought me even more attention. That’s marketing at its finest. It was so successful for us we sold out of every book we’d brought. And it allowed me to unchain my brain and ask for anything as far as merchandising and marketing ideas. As a kid I had a metal Batman lunch box, which I’ve since gotten again. [laughter] I wanted a metal Madman lunch box, but nobody made metal lunch boxes any more. I didn’t want some crappy plastic lunch box with a sticker on it, so I kept digging. When we got to Dark Horse,

Dave Scroggy, who’s in charge of a lot of the keen merchandise that they do, found a place that would do metal embossed lunch boxes. So, ta daa, it now exists. [laughter] I’ve started to run out of cool things to make and have. [laughter] MM: During that period where you were moving Madman over to Dark Horse, you did a book for Vertigo, The Geek. How did that come about? MIKE: That was really a great time, because at that point Madman was very successful. I was kind of marking my territory and really finding my center, and I get a call from Karen Berger. Actually, initially it was from Shelly Bond, who’s kind of like Karen Berger’s right-hand girl at Vertigo. Well, Shelly was my very first editor on the Jaguar Stories book, and so I had a lot of affection for her. She was great through all of that nightmare. She was caught up in it, too, but her optimism and upbeat-ness was important. So it was funny to get a call from her first, kind of reopening the door for Karen Berger, who, again, I probably didn’t have the kindest feelings for, but who I had a lot of respect for. It all kind of came around the same time, where I was asked if I would want to do a Sandman issue and also this Brother Power the Geek one-shot, which was really the launch of the Vertigo imprint. I thought it sounded interesting and pretty much just said, “Well, if Karen asks me, I might consider it.” [laughter] And she did, and we had this really great conversation. This is when I really gained a huge appreciation for the kind of person she is, and why the work that she catches is of such high quality, in that she’s really a special person, and has refined tastes, and is also a very strong individual and a very honest individual. She doesn’t play games, and I really respect that. So when she gave me that initial criticism about how I needed more refinement and more growth, to have that criticism followed by the praise that I then got from her, where she had been following my work, and had been watching my growth... it’s the kind of critique that means a lot, because you know you’ve received one end of the spectrum, and then to get the other end of the spectrum means a lot more than if I hadn’t had that initial criticism. It was very powerful for me, and it also made me realize that, in order for me to continue to be significant for myself, and to continue to grow, that I needed to be my harshest critic, and to never be satisfied with where I’m at, to always try to find some 25

new way to progress. And, if I hadn’t had that experience with Karen Berger, I don’t know if I would have ever developed that attitude, and maybe would have just found a comfortable place to stay at and stagnate. But what was funny about those two projects, they both involved Joe Simon creations. Brother Power the Geek, which was this weird counter-culture reaction, and so it’s funny to look at the original Joe Simon version, in all its hepness. [laughs] MM: Really trying too hard to be hep.

Above: Tricky Dick passes along some presidential advice to Prez. Page 7 of Sandman #54. Next Page: Page 6 of “The Vision,” from Vertigo Winter’s Edge #1, featuring Shade the Changing Man. Prez, Shade the Changing Man ™ and ©2008 DC Comics.

MIKE: Yeah, exactly. Well, the story that Neil wanted me to do for Sandman involved Prez, the Teenage President, which was another Joe Simon creation. It was, “Neil, please, I’m already doing one.” And Neil told me, “Trust me. This is the thing for you to do. I’m going to do something really special for you.” And he did. Working with Neil was an eye-opening experience. His script was like a correspondence. Throughout every panel description, it was like him talking to me. In fact, he would address me in the script, “Mike, I’m thinking this,” and, “Mike, I’m thinking that.” It was really a nice, very smooth and natural way to work together. MM: Do you think that helped you even more since you hadn’t work regularly with other writers? MIKE: I’d worked with Steve Seagle. I’d worked with Malcolm Bourne, a British psychiatrist, on a mini-series called Tales of Ordinary Madness about a British psychiatrist that goes crazy. [laughs] My experience with other writers was always kind of daunting, 26

because when I write something for myself I know exactly what I want it to look like. When I get a script from somebody else, I don’t have a clue how they see it; unless they write pages of description for a panel and include their references and reasons for why they want it to be a certain way, it’s really hard to get that across. And so I’ve always considered drawing somebody else’s script to be the bigger challenge, and over time I’ve realized that—at least now, being established—I know they have some idea, if they want me to be drawing it, that they’re going to be wanting my vision of it, whereas earlier on I was intimidated thinking that I needed to find out what their vision was. It can be kind of a clashing and inhibiting experience. My first experience with Neil was when he was just breaking out into superstar status, but by the time I did the Prez story, Neil was the guy. So our conversation and the script just made it very clear to me what he wanted, and what he wanted was what I was going to bring to it. That’s what the script reflected, where he would mention what he thought my strengths were. It was a great way to guide me through illustrating that story, and it’s one of the great Sandman stories. I’m really happy with it and it’s gratifying that it’s the one that Neil wanted me to do. Everything turned out perfectly. MM: Your art style looks a little different here. Were you doing anything differently as far as your inking or anything like that? MIKE: This was where I was trying to apply some of the more lush inking techniques that those earlier illustrators I was talking about would apply. And almost every time that I jump from one project to another, I try to regard it as an opportunity to try something new. Even within the Madman comics, with a new storyline I’ll try to apply different techniques, or pull one way, or pull the other way. Doing a completely new, different project with another writer and another company, there’s an even greater opportunity to do something that much more drastic. And I think, in some ways, there’s some stuff in the Prez story that I would say I was trying too hard, and I was still trying to find out exactly who I was. Now I look back and think who I am as an artist, there’s a fairly consistent line

opportunities, and you don’t want to miss out on anything. The US Male thing was an opportunity to work with Murphy Anderson. And Jim Valentino, who wrote the script, is one of the nicest guys in the biz. A super, solid, straightforward, honest, decent guy. That’s how that all came about. There was no way I was going to say no to working with a true legend. That was a time period where you just saw me all over the place. I can’t really say I regret doing anything, because I was still trying to find out where my niche was,

and a consistent style. I think who I really am is somebody that wants to have some kind of growth in anything I do, while maintaining some kind of consistency and distinct style. But with that one, in addition to—around the same time, I also did a short story with Peter Milligan, a Shade, the Changing Man story, which was in the Vertigo Visions special. There I was doing some crosshatching and just trying to figure out what’s enough—definitely not applying my Alex Toth influences, but doing the opposite. And having that attitude of, “I’m going to give you my best,” sometimes you can try too hard. If I were to do that again, I’d pull back a little bit. But, at the same time, it is what it is for that time and that part of my development. MM: So how did you get involved with US Male? That seems kind of out of left field a little bit. Where’d that come from? MIKE: During this time period—probably ’92 through ’94— was when Madman really broke out. During that same time period, Jeff Smith was breaking out with Bone, Paul Pope was making a name for himself, so you’d see a cover from Jeff here, and something else from Paul there, and something else from me here. We’ve talked about this, ourselves, and this was kind of like our breakout time. I see it happen all the time, now, where somebody breaks out, and everybody gets excited about them and invites them to do different things for them, and that was exactly what was happening to me. The Vertigo work, and I did a couple things for Image.... MM: Yeah, you were doing some pin-ups and covers and things. MIKE: Right. I did cover illustrations and game illustrations for Marvel. And I think what happens for anybody when you’re trying to make a name for yourself, you’re trying to get your footing. And then, when the phone starts ringing, you’re afraid to say no. Here are these 27

group was the only one that rivals the success of Image, in a way. The main difference being that Legend wasn’t as ambitious in the publishing sense and remained an imprint at Dark Horse—they never took that next step. Fortunately for me—and to this day I still don’t understand why—they invited me into the group.

or if I even had a niche. So it was really great to do something for Heavy Metal magazine, and then do something over here. It was great. It was a crash course in success. When Dark Horse picked up Madman and provided even more success than I had had, it occurred to me that that’s where I needed to focus. I know I say that word a lot, but it really is about clarity, having that focus to figure out where to put your creative energy, and I think the thing that just really locked me into the industry as a whole and really established my career was the creation of the Legend imprint at Dark Horse. This was following the phenomenal success of the Image guys, and everybody around the industry was realizing, “Hey, there’s strength in numbers. Let’s form our own group.” So you’d see these imprints popping up all over at different companies. Because Image was at Malibu at the time. Image hadn’t become its own publishing company at that point; this was new ground. Everybody was realizing, “Wow, we’re the ones that make this industry work. We need to take more control and get a firmer grip on the steering wheel of our careers.” Well, Mike Mignola, Frank Miller, Paul Chadwick, Geof Darrow, Dave Gibbons, Art Adams, and John Byrne formed Legend, and they had made a deal with Dark Horse to kind of set themselves apart as this group. The idea was that they would have their characters cross-pollinate into each other’s books, and they would show up at conventions together and be an entity, as well. Looking back, I would say that the Legend

MM: Had you met many of those guys by that point? MIKE: I had. Art Adams was in the San Francisco area, and I would always go to WonderCon. In fact, Art was the first superstar that I ever met. At that first WonderCon, he was the guy that you’d go, “Who’s behind all those people?” [laughter] There’d be this huge line and crowd around him, and somebody told me, “Oh, that’s Art Adams.” Later, when there would be all these opportunities for artists to get together, I met him, and he’s just one of the funniest, friendliest guys. In fact, Laura and I say that the funniest, most enjoyable time we’ve ever had at a convention was when we were up in a hotel suite at a party and we were sitting with Art Adams, Mike Mignola, and Steve Purcell. It was like we were at a comedy club and these three comedians were performing only for us. [laughter] We were crying from laughter, and all they were doing was relating experiences that they had shared being roommates and neighbors, and all these things they had done, ways that they would torture each other, and it was hilarious. Boy, just get those three guys together and it’s pure joy. 28

So, yeah, we did get to know these guys. I remember meeting Frank Miller for the first time with Bob Schreck, who, again, was my editor, and is also very tight with Frank. This was months before I went to Dark Horse, and it was outside of the convention, and Schreck was like, “Frank, I want you to meet Mike.” And Frank had all these great, nice, wonderful, flattering things to say, and it was like, “Wow, Frank Miller.” Unfortunately, I don’t see this happen too much anymore, these opportunities at conventions where the creators have a place to get together. There used to be receptions. I don’t really see that happening so much anymore. Now, with the conventions being so huge, especially Comic-Con, it’s become divide and conquer, just waving at each other in passing. I’ve been showing up less and less because I’m not having any interesting exchanges with anybody anymore—fans or fellow creators—because it’s more of an assembly line kind of experience now, and I find that more and more frustrating. I think very fondly of the early shows, where there might be ten, twenty people hovering around asking questions and talking and having fun, exciting conversations. Now it’s kind of like you’ve got these handlers with cattle prods,

“You can only have three books, and move it on. You’ve got more than three books!” [laughter] Then capping the line, and then the one person who shows up after the line’s been capped, “Augh, I came all the way from Australia!” [laughter] MM: Who was it that invited you into the group? MIKE: Frank Miller. I already knew what Legend was, and the first issue of Madman Comics at Dark Horse was coming out. So Frank Miller calls me up and asks me if I’d like to be part of the Legend group, and it just kind of knocked me back. I was flummoxed, and I actually asked him, “Are you sure?” [laughter] Because these guys were all established and had been doing groundbreaking work in the business. Mike was just then introducing Hellboy. The Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot was Geof and Frank’s new creation, but their Hard Boiled series set the comic book world on fire. Concrete had won every award there was, and John Byrne.... MM: Definitely an impressive group of artists. Previous Page: Peter Parker picked a peck of pogs. Pogs were a shortlived craze in the early ’90s, and Mike drew his fair share of them. Above: With a new series at Dark Horse came new corner box art. This image appeared on the covers of the first ten issues of Madman Comics. Left: Madman and the Snap City gang. Madman Comics letters page art.

what really established me, because when it was announced, as successful as Madman had been, it was still just a minor cult hit. The people that were exposed to my work and liked it were like, “Yeah, hey, great. Good for him.” Everybody else was like, “Who is that guy?” [laughter] But, by asking that question, they sought out my work, and wanted to know who “that guy” was. So, by association and curiosity, it was easily the best thing that happened to my career. MM: Let’s talk about what you were doing within the stories. You were really trying to set up a large supporting cast, and you brought in Mattress and Crept, Mott from Hoople.... Was there a specific direction you wanted to take the series?

Above: Inside front cover art from Madman Comics #2. Right: Mott from Hoople, named after one of Mike’s favorite bands, Mott the Hoople. Next Page: Madman with his disc gun. Corner box art for Madman Comics from issue #11 up. Madman, Mott ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred.

MIKE: I created the Madman universe to be a place where anything can happen. I had this huge outline, but I allowed myself the kind of freeform contribute to this outline. What I’ve found as I’ve developed this series is that anything that comes from your creative process fits in somewhere, and you just have to figure out how it fits together. If this all comes from your head, and it’s all original to you, it must work somewhere. Another way to describe that is if your mind can create a conflict or a problem, your mind should also be able to find that solution and solve the problem. That’s what I try to work through. So initially I will brainstorm and just let myself go crazy. I tap into that kid on the floor playing with his Major Matt Mason space toys, and just daydream, and just play, and just kind of make note of everything in that process. Then I go back and try to put together what works, and what’s strong, and what’s unique, and what’s special. Sometimes I’ll surprise myself, and this is part of the fun that I have with the writing process: discovering all the moments and relationships

MIKE: It was very strange and questionable, even from my perspective. Why me? And he told me that it was a unanimous decision, that they wouldn’t be bringing anybody on unless they all agreed on it, and everybody thought it was a great idea. So I stupidly asked him if it was okay if I talked about it with my wife [laughter] and that I’d call him back. And to this day, I think he probably still thinks I’m insane. But I did, I talked to Laura, and she, “Are you crazy? Call him back!” [laughter] And I did, and I apologized for hesitating, but it just was the kind of thing where it felt like it was too good to be true. It was clearly an awesome thing, and, like I said, I think it’s 30

some pride in that; I think he encouraged these stories. For instance, on one of the rare times he went to a comic book show, he got into a fight with somebody and heaved him into a swimming pool. And that was just one example of the stories that would go around about Toth. So as I would go the shows and become friendly with other people I admired, we would swap pin-ups. It was the decade of creator-owned characters, so as you went from show to show you’d be trading and cross-promoting each other’s work with your characters. This is how my Madman Gallery started, where I was getting Madman illustrations from all these amazing people. But how am I going to get an illustration from Alex Toth if I never meet him? Fortunately, I met an art dealer who had sold some of Toth’s work. He had his address and phone number, and kind of dared me, “Why don’t you send your stuff? Ask him, see if he’ll do one for you.” I figured, “Well, I’ve got nothing to lose.” So I put a little package together and sent it to Alex. I thought, do I dare call him? I had this phone number, and I was told that he’d never answer the phone, but I thought, “Well, it won’t hurt to call, because he’s not going to answer it. If he does answer it, I’ll ask him if he got the package.” So I called, and he answered! I introduced myself and asked if he’d gotten the package. He said he did, and he started praising it. Now, keep in mind, I was expecting to get, “What are you calling me for? Leave me alone! Who do you think you are?” But, in fact, it was like Santa Claus answered the phone and was telling me I was a good boy. [laughter] He just went on and on. So I was encouraged to ask him, “It would mean a lot to me if you could draw him for me.” And he said, “Oh, I’ve already done that and I’ve sent it off to you. You’ll probably get it tomorrow or the next day, because I just sent it out.” Of course, I was blown away. “Oh, really? You did this for me?” I explained that what I was planning to do was, I wanted each back cover to be by a different artist, but we were also going to put a card collection together. Cards were really big at that time. So he said, “Well, I’ll do another one for you then. One for a card, and one for a back cover.” I was just climbing up the walls, bouncing around like an insane little child. And, sure enough, he did these two wonderful illustrations for me, and one was used for a card, and one was a back cover.

that can all play off each other. That’s kind of how all these characters come to be. They’ll initially be something or have some reason for being a part of the plot, and then I’ll find that there are other reasons and other combinations that create a chemistry around them. Through this process, all of these different characters come to exist. MM: Did you have one of those disc shooters as a kid? Because I did. MIKE: Oh, yeah! The first one I had was licensed Star Trek merchandise. On the back of the package were these painted illustrations of Kirk and Spock and McCoy, and it was Star Trek Disc Gun. Yeah, those discs went all over the place. I haven’t seen them in stores for a while, but they were in stores in ’94 when I put one in Frank Einstein’s hands, and I got an orange one. I would tell people that there used to be a Star Trek gun, and some people would say, “Oh, yeah. That’s right. I remember that.” Years later somebody gave me a gold one like the one that I had as a kid. I think they also had blue— MM: Yeah, we had blue guns. MIKE: Somebody gave me a rifle version. There’s a little, tiny rifle. I’d never seen one before or since; I just have the one that was given to me by, again, a mutual friend of Bob Schreck, a terrific guy named Shannon. It’s just amazing when people give you cool stuff. MM: You got a letter from Alex Toth which you printed in the back of the second issue, I believe. MIKE: Oh, yeah. Like we’ve talked about, you go to comic book shows and you meet all your heroes. That’s where I met Jack Kirby; Will Eisner was in one of these public situations promoting that documentary, and later he would show up at the comic shows. But Alex Toth stopped going to shows. And, because I’ve stopped going to shows, I hope people don’t regard me that way. I don’t know why he stopped going to shows, but Toth was a notorious crank. I think it’s fair to say that, and I think he was aware of that. I think in some ways he took 31

We became great friends and talked on the phone, but he had this famous way of corresponding with his postcards—that instantly recognizable lettering of his with all the little doodles and drawings. And I became kind of a courier for these snack foods that he liked. There were these peanuts that were sold in Oregon, and these dried apricots that he liked, sunflower seeds—there were these various things that he liked. When I say he was a recluse, it was to the point where he had somebody who would deliver his groceries for him. Almost everyone I know who had a special relationship with him, it wasn’t a rare thing to hit an impasse. And, with me, it was a really weird, awkward, crazy situation. What happened was, I would have an open FedEx box in the studio, and over time I would put stuff in it to eventually send to Alex. So the peanuts would be in there, the apricots... and usually I would send him one of these packages when a new book came out. Apparently one of my kids threw some change in it, like a couple of pennies or a nickel or something, because I got a call from Alex and he was furious. “What’s wrong?” “What’s wrong? What, do you think I’m a charity case? You think I need this from you?” “What?” “I got your pennies.” He was deeply, deeply insulted that there was some change in the box, like it was some kind of snotty implication on my part that he was a bum on the street. It was probably the most awkward and painful phone conversation I ever had in my life, because I was caught completely off guard. Of course, I didn’t even know why he was upset. And I tried to explain, you know, “One of my kids must have thrown it in there.” But he had already decided.

he would always respond to the new book and give it this priceless critique. But that was it. That was the end. And, of course, he passed away recently. I had the best experience possible with him, and then it ended in a confused, unfortunate way. MM: On to happier subjects. With issue #4 you did a murder mystery, which was something a little different for you. Were you just trying to shake things up, trying to do something a little different? MIKE: Yeah, again, going back to the idea that anything can happen in the Madman universe, I’ve been intending to do a

MM: And once he made up his mind, there was no changing it. MIKE: Yeah. And that was it. I’m assuming he had caller ID, because he never answered the phone after that. It was always a crapshoot when I would call him before. Mostly he wouldn’t answer the phone, but every once in a while he would, and you would have a really great conversation. But the correspondence just stopped. I sent a few more packages after that, and, again, nothing, whereas before 33

Keep in mind that Hellboy didn’t exist before Legend, and this was Mike’s baby, and it was just starting to take off. If you talk to Mike now, he’s incredibly confident and he realizes his strengths and talents as a storyteller, whereas, at that time, he was treading lightly, and he was tiptoeing and trying to find his footing. Everything he’d done to that point was with other writers.

Western, a detective story... every genre that you can think of I want to somehow twist and bend its way into Madman. But then I don’t ever want to hold to the stereotypes or the clichés or the predictability of a genre that I decide to integrate into the work, so there were all these other elements that kind of threw it off what you would normally expect with that kind of story. The thing that I’m most proud of was the giant fight scene that takes place through most of that arc between this circus performer called Muscle Man—who’s your circus muscle man with the difference being that he has no skin, so you literally see his muscles— and Madman. That was a tribute to your classic Kirby fights—the Thing fighting the Hulk, for instance. But what I wanted to do was continue to apply this existentialism, a philosophy which has always been a part of the Madman story. Who are we, why are we here? And so, instead of your traditional Marvel captions, which are describing the battle, I have things in the dialogue taking place simultaneously with this battle, and the contrast, I think, was powerful, at least based on the reaction that it got. It’s one of the wonderful, rare times where your intentions are completely realized, and for that reason, I’m really proud of that.

MM: He even had John Byrne write the dialogue for the first Hellboy story. MIKE: Exactly. So it was really fun to see him develop as a storyteller and create what is now this established, heavily influential, heavily ripped off style. But he was still honing it then. His unique style developed very quickly, and really kind of took hold with Cosmic Odyssey, but, after Hellboy you see something completely unique to comics.

MM: In the next issue there was a Hellboy cameo, and in issues #6 and #7, you have a crossover with the Big Guy, so it was like you were trying to reinforce a sense of community with the Legend guys, like you were all part of a big gang. Was that an extra bit of fun for you? MIKE: Oh, yeah. It was classic. The reason that Hellboy didn’t have a full-on crossover was that I didn’t want to force myself on anybody, so I was kind of tiptoeing, finding my place in this group of legends. We talked about this stuff, and there were these open invitations, like, “Yeah, do whatever you want.” But I don’t like when you say to a houseguest, “Oh, yeah, come and stay with us,” and then they never leave. [laughter] I didn’t want to be that guy, so I trod softly by just having a more subtle appearance with Hellboy. In retrospect, I wish I had done a full-on adventure. It was really fun in that time also because Hellboy was exploding. 34

Now, Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot, Geof was drawing these amazing things. It was the coolest stuff I had ever seen in my life, and I couldn’t wait for it to come out. Every time I would talk to Geof I’d go, “When is the book going to come out?” He’s notoriously, I wouldn’t say slow, but notoriously non-prolific, because every single panel has more going on in it than your average entire comic book. It’s just this huge amount of work that he’s doing, and even if you held a gun to his head, I don’t think you could have made him just draw one close-up of one face in a panel and move on to the next panel. But I got to see all this stuff and he had drawn Madman for me a couple of times, and it was out of my frustration and enthusiasm that I presented the idea of introducing the Big Guy in Madman Comics. You know, “Your big book’s going to come out, but in the meantime people are waiting for this. Why don’t you let me draw him in Madman Comics?” And Frank and Geof were completely cool with it. Frank even wrote the dialogue for the Big Guy, so here I am collaborating on a storyline with Frank Miller. Then Geof drew a Madman pin-up for one of the back covers with Rusty the Boy Robot on it. So that became a more epic crossover, as opposed to the cameo appearance of Hellboy. After that, because of my growing confidence and sense of self and appreciation of my own success, I then concentrated more on keeping the storyline pure. But to this day, I’m a huge fan of Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot, even though there’s only been that one giant story. But right in front of me now I’ve got toys and magnets. [laughter] I love that creation.

what Geof and Frank did, I think it would have been the coolest cartoon ever, but it became all this other stuff. Instead of the Big Guy being an Iron Man-type suit, it became a giant robot with a little guy inside it. Nice effort, but it missed the target. MM: In issue #7, there’s a credit, “technical assist by Bond Allred.” What exactly did he do? Is that his first comic book credit? MIKE: I think, just out of fun, he might have been sitting on my lap, and maybe he filled in some blacks or something, just so that he could get the buzz of getting his name in print. [laughter] But, on other occasions, on other books, my kids have drawn a character that I have then drawn into a book. Like, our daughter Kelby did a little monkey character named, I think, Mook, and I said, “I’ll draw it in The Atomics.” And in an issue of The Atomics you’ll see “Mook created by Kelby Allred.”

MM: Did you watch the cartoon?

MM: Also in that issue you introduce a new character, Chow Skip-Wang.

MIKE: The cartoon didn’t do anything for me. If they had kept to the pure essence of

MIKE: Oh, yeah. 35

Below: Madman Comics #7, page 9. Next Page: Red Rocket 7 promo art.

MM: He’s a really fun character. I take it you were watching a lot of John Woo films at the time? MIKE: Absolutely. MM: He’s named after Chow Yun-Fat, obviously, complete with a matchstick permanently in his mouth.

MIKE: No doubt about it. We were at a comic book show, and it might have been Bob Schreck again. He was always introducing me to cool stuff, and I think he might have been the guy that got me excited about John Woo movies. Hard Boiled was playing at a midnight show, and I remember we were with Frank Miller. “Hey, let’s go see this Chinese Hard Boiled.” And I remember Frank saying, “I’ve already done my Hard Boiled,” and he didn’t go. [laughs] But, yeah, I loved those movies, The Killer and Hard Boiled are two of my favorite action films ever. It’s funny because when Laura and I watched The Killer—it might have come on HBO or something—we didn’t even know what it was, didn’t know who John Woo was. We were watching it, and Laura kept going, “He’s cute!” She just had this crazy crush on Chow YunFat. MM: He does have a certain charisma to him. That’s one of his strong suits, I think. MIKE: Yeah, when you look at somebody like Steve McQueen or Clint Eastwood or Alain Delon, they’ve got something. It’s that actual crackle, and Chow Yun-Fat has that, no doubt about it. I don’t care where you’re from, if you’ve got it, you’ve got it, and he has it. And I’ve been happy to see him enjoy some success in America. He definitely translates. I think Geof Darrow might have been a big fan, too. MM: That would make sense, yeah. MIKE: That might have been another reason for bringing that character into it. And that character is in the Madman movie script, too, and it’d be the dream of dreams to get Chow Yun-Fat to play Chow Skip-Wang! [laughter]

Part 3:

It’s Only Rock ’n’ Roll— and Comics and Film

MM: After a time Madman went on hiatus as Hollywood became interested in the property. What’s the story behind that? MIKE: Well, while it was still at Tundra, the first interest was from 20th Century Fox, and it was really weird because they must have just been fishing because we got a phone call and they asked to have a bunch of books sent so everybody in this particular office could see it. Which we did, and then we got a letter saying, “Thank you for your interest, but we’re....” It was weird. [laughs] They showed interest, and then I got a letter that kind of sounded like I had approached them. That was my first experience, just this quick in-and-out flush. MM: Was that part of the aftermath of Tim Burton’s Batman movie?

MIKE: Well, after that. It was actually closer to the time when The Crow was huge. Tundra had picked up The Crow, and Madman was second only to The Crow as far as commercial success at Tundra. And I think maybe The Crow’s success as a book and then also as a film is why there was some interest shown. And, also, Tundra was becoming active, especially considering that also around that time the

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle movies were really big, too, and Kevin Eastman was doing well with that. But it was after the next level of success at Dark Horse that I was approached by a guy who wanted to be my manager and we “took meetings.” [laughter] I’m trying to remember the Hollywood lingo. Universal Pictures picked it up, and that was really great, at least from a confidenceboosting, ego-boosting standpoint. They would constantly fly me in first class, put me up in four-star hotels, and it was the complete red carpet experience. But what I soon realized was that nothing was moving forward. It was a really strange process in that they would fly me down for a one- or two-hour meeting, and I would go back home the next day with no real sense of forward momentum. At that point I took some of the money that they had given me and, in order to kind of exercise my passion for film and also maybe to show them that they should consider me to direct the film, keeping in mind my television experience.... The way I’ve always looked at it was that comic books are essentially like still frames from a film, and your captions and word balloons place your dialogue. An individual can take their film idea and adapt it to the comic book medium. And, as I said before, that’s kind of how I got pulled back into the medium to begin with, with my movie-going pal

giving me comic books. It just seemed a natural step for me to helm the film in that it was all in my head. So I did a film called Astroesque using Robert Rodriguez’s El Mariachi Formula. He wrote a book called Rebel without a Crew which in great detail explained how he made El Mariachi for, like, $7000. So I thought, “Well, I’ll just spend a couple more thousand dollars, [laughs] and just set about doing it.”

on almost every instrument, when you come down to it. [laughter] But it just seemed to me, with this opportunity and all of a sudden having money that we weren’t counting on.... Laura and I have always been very frugal and responsible, and we knew what our budget was and how we wanted to live simply, but with this movie money, all of a sudden we had money we weren’t necessarily counting on—although what I think anybody finds out is that when you start making more money, you start spending more money, without even realizing it. The first step in that direction was deciding, “Hey, let’s take some of this money and make a no-budget film, and, at the same time, let’s build a recording studio.” [laughter] There was really a very enthusiastic do-it-yourself movement kicking in around that time—do-it-yourself movies, do-it-yourself recordings—that all of this stuff which normally you would need your big break to do, anybody, even if you just bought a cheap $400 track recorder, could make a CD. Small bands were making vinyl recordings, putting them out on records. It’s important to note that the independent music scene was really active at that time, and a lot of stuff was kicking up, and it just seemed like if I didn’t take these opportunities which were presenting themselves to me, with all this access to film equipment and recording equipment, that I’d be stupid if I didn’t try to exercise all these muscles. Looking back, I would say this is the crucial two or three years that really taught me almost everything which I’ve adhered to ever since as far as ethics, whether it’s business ethics, creative ethics, or commitment ethics. This was where I really worked this stuff out, by doing all of these things. When making Astroesque, what I didn’t account for was the complex story that I wrote and needing the actors to deliver all the exposition. I had just figured, “Say the line and we’ll make it work, fix it in editing and what have you.” It was just me and some friends—there were no professional actors—and my buddy Shane Hawks, who was a film student, was helping me in the editing and production. Putting it together, there were just a lot of cringe-worthy

MM: Did the Red Rocket 7 idea come from this decision to make Astroesque, or was the idea of doing a three-pronged attack there from the onset? Where did that idea begin? MIKE: Looking back at it now, it all seemed to all come together at the same time, so it’s really hard to nail down. There was, on the one hand, all this activity around Madman, me trying to keep some kind of schedule, the interest in Hollywood and being given this royal treatment and trying to stay grounded, and also being concerned about how to make the next move to keep all my options open and have the license to do whatever I wanted—which is ultimately what any creative individual wants is to not have their options shut down. I also wanted to do stuff with my band, The Gear, which I write all the music for, I play guitar, I’m the lead singer—it’s me

moments where I’d just go, “Oh, this just isn’t what I was seeing.” Universal knew I was making this film, but I wouldn’t show any of it to them, so them taking me seriously as the director kind of evaporated. Though I did make a trailer for Astroesque which is really powerful—I think it’s pretty sweet—and the visual elements in the film, I think, are right on. Here where we live there are forests and streams and cliffs and expanses of dunes. It’s the largest coastal dune park in the country. MM: Oh, okay. I was wondering where you shot the desert scenes. MIKE: Yeah, it’s all here. It’s just the most amazingly diverse place in one small area that you can imagine, and we had access to all this stuff, so visually I’m really proud of it. Ultimately we ended up taking inspiration from Nicholas Roeg, who’s this very ambiguous director that I admire. He made The Man that Fell to Earth, which was an inspiration. His movies are the kind of, I guess you’d call

them trip movies—the kind you’d go see at midnight and maybe even do some substance to enhance the experience. [laughter] But you would end up discussing what it was about. So I ended up just cutting out almost all of the dialogue, because it just wasn’t working, and figured that maybe I could tell it visually, so I kind of reedited it that way. And that’s what we ended up releasing on video. Then later—jumping just a little bit ahead—some of my earlier comic book work was adapted into a movie called G-Men from Hell, and that was directing by Christopher Coppola, who is Nicholas Cage’s older brother, Francis’ nephew. We offered Astroesque for a special feature on the DVD. Unfortunately, the version that wasn’t letterboxed or properly sound mixed is what was used, so I’m afraid that that’s going to be its legacy. But the VHS copy of Astroesque is actually something that I’m very happy with. MM: How did Robert Rodriguez get involved with the movie? 39

Previous Page: Album cover art for Mike’s band, The Gear. Above: Mattress and Crept—the G-Men from Hell! Page from their adventures in Grafik Musik, and the cover to the trade paperback collection of the story. The Gear, G-Men from Hell, Madman ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred.

MIKE: Universal wanted me to make a list of directors. This was also my first attempt at a screenplay since I did one for Dead Air, and it wasn’t getting.... I think at that point Universal was deciding, “Look, we’re just going to take the property. Your involvement is appreciated, but....” So, after they asked, I made a list of directors, and right at the top was Robert Rodriguez. He had just done Desperado. Where in El Mariachi he had shown what he could do with $7000, with Desperado, a remake/sequel to El Mariachi, he showed what he could do with seven million dollars. With seven million dollars he did what looked like a forty, fifty million dollar movie—big action, huge stars, Antonio Banderas, Selma Hayek. He then did that again for George Clooney with Dusk to Dawn, and that, if you look at his career arc, is really where George Clooney became a movie star. I was a huge fan of Robert’s. I can’t remember who else was on the list, but he was at the top. Universal found that kind of curious, but they also felt that he was really breaking out, so they contacted him and made an offer and Robert passed. Now, I just figured, “Okay, fine, he’s a busy guy,” but, to Robert’s credit—and this is why our friendship really kicked into high gear—he sought me out and contacted me and wanted me to know how much he loved Madman, but just didn’t want to commit to the studio system. He felt that his future was going to be with carrying as much independence as possible. Robert’s career has always been about that. At this point, he’s got the largest green screen studio outside of Hollywood in his awesome facilities, he’s got animation facilities... it’s just amazing what this guy did with his initial $7000 investment. His career took off, and here’s a guy that took the reins and

Above: The VHS box art for Astroesque. Right: Red Rocket 7 back cover art. Next Page: One of Mike’s storyboards for the upcoming Madman movie from Robert Rodriguez and Dimension Films. Astroesque, Madman, Red Rocket 7 ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred.

just really worked it. So, for that reason, he’s been a huge inspiration. But, beyond that, he’s just a straightforward, honest, decent, enthusiastic guy. You just can’t be around Robert and not feel like anything is possible, and those are the kind of people that I really gravitate towards. After doing the album and the film, I then helped Shane out with his own film, which was called Eyes to Heaven, this really creepy horror art film. MM: That tied into the comic book Feeders. MIKE: Right, which was simply me wanting to make some kind of connection to the comic book industry to help Shane out and to help promote the movie. But I have to be honest and say I’m ashamed of it. I never felt comfortable with the project on many different levels. I see it for what he wanted it to be, and the film I think is very successful. It’s very much what he wanted. The comic book, though... there are probably three or four things I’ve done that I just wish to be dropped in a hole, and that would be one of them. [laughter] And that’s no offense to Shane, it’s just my personal involvement and what my goals are. It was really just about honoring a commitment to a friend, so that’s what that is. And, again, that’s why this period was so important. I was really trying to figure out where you draw the line when honoring your friends and doing favors and being true to yourself. So a very important period. MM: Let’s go back and talk a little bit more about Astroesque. First of all, Droog Brothers. Is that you and Shane? MIKE: Yes. MIKE: Yeah. Well, the character that I play in Astroesque would be the original alien, and this alien has seven clones made of himself. And I should say, I may get this wrong. [laughter] There are people out there who are fans of this that know it better than I do, and I haven’t read it in years, I haven’t looked at the movie in years, so I might remember some of this wrong. But it’s something I’m really happy with, especially the comic book series, Red Rocket 7. I’m really happy with how that was received, and the record album got rave reviews in alternate press magazines, and the people who like the movie see things in it that I don’t or didn’t, and that is the most gratifying thing of all, when something gains its own momentum and becomes its own entity. But the only way I can really explain is to say that Astroesque runs parallel, in some ways, to the Red Rocket 7 storyline, but it’s much simpler in that the alien character meets this kid who has lost his sister, and years later the alien character comes out of a kind of time suspension to lead up to what’s going to be this intergalactic event, a kind of celebration. In some ways it carries the same themes that Dead Air did, but, again, with more ambiguity. With Red Rocket 7, these seven clones each take a characteristic of this original alien, but enhance those characteristics. So one’s

MM: Okay. Where does the name “Droog” come from? MIKE: A Clockwork Orange. I should also mention that in the Air Force I was also trained as a Russian linguist. In fact, I went in as a broadcaster, but I scored high on the language test and was offered a bonus to go to the Russian language school, which I did—for a time, at least. And it was fun to discover that all of the slang in A Clockwork Orange is derived from the Russian language. [laughs] If you read the book or watch the film, they use the term horror show, but phonetically, that is the Russian phrase for “really good.” But, in the film you’re thinking “horror show,” like monster movie. MM: Exactly, yeah. MIKE: It was really fun to pick up on all that. That was a film that Shane and I both really admire, and Stanley Kubrick is one of the filmmakers that I hold in the highest regard. We had that in common, and droog meaning friend, that’s how the name came together. MM: Okay. Now, how does the story of Astroesque fit in with Red Rocket 7? Obviously, the common character there is the original alien. 41

Above: Ziggy plays guitar. Red Rocket 7 pinup of Ziggy Stardust, a.k.a. David Bowie. Next Page: Cover art for Vertical, which as the title implies was published in a narrow vertical format and read from top to bottom. Red Rocket 7 ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred.

athletic ability is multiplied, and in the case of Red Rocket 7, the seventh clone, his musical ability is multiplied, and we follow him throughout the history of rock ’n’ roll having an effect on the events of history, or at least witnessing it, being a part of it throughout. You can tell the music that I love the most because I spend the most time on it. [laughter] MM: I’ve never heard you mention Little Richard before, and he gets a lot of screen time in the book. MIKE: Yeah, I can’t say I’m a huge fan of Little Richard, but I would tend to agree with him that a lot of it started with him. He’ll tell you that, if it wasn’t for him, rock ’n’ roll would have never existed. And, in some ways, he’s right. There were very specific, integral things that he influenced. And so I just wanted to honor the genealogy and to try to be as fair and honest as possible. From there, the 42

two big ones would be Elvis, who then influenced the Beatles, and the Beatles also being influenced by, of all people, Buddy Holly and the Everly Brothers. I never stop being completely fascinated with how that happens, how artists influence other artists, and then how whatever that unique light is inside of them ends up creating something else that’s entirely exciting and special. I love to break that stuff down, and that’s why I get overly enthusiastic about listing my influences, because I can see how, well, if I’d never been exposed to this work, then I never would have moved in this direction. Since we last talked, for instance, I felt it’s hugely important to mention Moebius. He was a huge influence on me and was definitely a part of me wanting to do Dead Air as a graphic novel. It just goes on and on and on, and you just never know when to draw the line and say, “Enough about that.” But I just find all of this so exciting and energizing, the whole creative process, and in this crucial period, taking part in all of these mediums and doing the smalltime media projects, what I realized was what was most satisfying for me, where I had the most control and where I had the most potential for growth and independence, was the comic book medium. So it was after all this that I redoubled my commitment to comic books, and everything else has kind of taken a back seat ever since. MM: With Red Rocket 7, did you have any negative feedback from people complaining about the nature of the format? It was printed in record album proportions rather than standard comic proportions.

MIKE: Oh, yeah. MM: Most comic shop owners hate that kind of thing, when they can’t display everything exactly the same way. MIKE: Right. Especially then. I see them more accepting now. I see different formats coming out and having more success. But, yeah, there was anger. I never heard it firsthand, but Dark Horse would tell me the frustrations of comic book shops—first and foremost their not being able to bag and board it. So we would then go back to the grapevine and suggest buying record sleeves, which these EP sleeves would fit the comic perfectly. But, at that time, a lot of retailers were struggling with which distributor to go through. They weren’t going to go out of their way to find a way to get record sleeves. It’s a lot to ask, but at the same time my rebellious and obstinate nature made me want to go even more extreme [laughter], especially with Eyes to Heaven. Feeders was originally going to be the exact size of a VHS tape, so we could do an edition that was shrink-wrapped with the VHS, but Dark Horse put their foot down on that one. [laughter] But since then, my first collaborator Steve Seagle and I did a book for Vertigo called Vertical. It’s a long, skinny format, and when you open it up, you read from the very top down to the bottom. I think I’ve gotten that all out of my system now. [laughter] I very much love the traditional comic book format, although now I’m kind of enamored with this Gargantuan format—at Marvel I guess they would be called the Omnibus format. I love having these seminal works blown up huge, so I end up trading in my older collections. Now my Dark Knight collection is the big, Absolute edition. [laughs] I have the complete EC library—one of my favorite possessions—which is oversized, black-&-white, and on beautiful archival paper. The EC artists were enormously influential on me, and having those books is the next best thing to owning the actual original art boards; it’s just one step away from getting exactly how that stuff was all done. I’m constantly interested in breaking all this stuff down and figuring out how it was done, what tools were used, what inking implements, what pencils an artist favored. When I read an interview with an artist, the thing that I get most excited about is when they offer up their techniques, what tools they use. I wanna know! MM: Speaking of which, with Red Rocket 7, it looks like you were doing something a little different. Were you inking with markers? MIKE: I was. And this was the Alex Toth influence, because he would use these felt-tip markers and would always talk about how it’s easy access and it’s about drawing and the speed, not worrying about smudging your hand across the ink. And here I was, like I said, I wanted to be as efficient as possible, and just offering up one more influence, there was a French artist named Yves Chaland. He was a friend of Geof Darrow, and Geof turned me on to his work. Imagine Hergé’s Tintin, but with these big, thick brushstrokes. I just couldn’t get enough of it, and I went crazy contacting foreign book dealers trying to get all his stuff. His work has become more accessible since then, but it 43

was like a treasure hunt finding all this stuff, and I became obsessed with it, and wanting my brushstrokes to have these huge, slick lines. So in that period, you’ll see that I lost a lot of refinement in my linework. I was experimenting with markers and these big, thick brush pens, and losing a lot of the detail in my work and just going with these big, thick graphic lines. That was in the Red Rocket 7 period.

It was also around the same time that Dark Horse offered up the crossover with Superman that they had negotiated with DC Comics. That was amazing, getting a phone call from Mike Richardson asking if I’d be interested. The deal was done, they had already arranged everything. It was just a matter of me saying yes or no. One day I heard the idea, the next day I had the contract, and the day after that I started writing the script. MM: Wow. MIKE: Yeah. It was bizarre. That was right as I was finishing up Red Rocket 7. The experiment with efficiency worked. Even though the linework suffered at times, I think, I kept that book on a monthly schedule until I started doing the Superman/Madman crossover, and then the last few books were a little late. But I was also finishing mixing the album— the guys that mixed the Good Will Hunting soundtrack mixed the Gear album—and then also putting the finishing touches on Astroesque. All of that was happening at the same time, and this led to my commitment to focusing on one project at a time. Because I can look back at that work and I can see where it suffers. And although, for what it is and what’s put into it, it’s easily the most energetic time of my life, I was just juggling too many things. I have a lot of affection for all of these projects, but I have tried to be my own harshest critic and to find the flaws, so that whenever somebody presents them to me—and you know that a lot of people are always happy to offer criticism [laughter]—I would already be aware of those faults and possible failures. Superman/Madman was this great opportunity, but it really was rushed, and the line art suffers from an influ-

was the only thing that I insisted on. I didn’t want to play into this trendy marketing phase, I wanted to do the classic Superman, and they allowed that. Other than that, there was only one change on their part that they ever asked for. I was given carte blanche, but there was this one sequence where I had written Superman and Madman sitting in a swing set, and there was kind of a lull in the conversation, and Madman asked Superman, “Do you believe in God?” If I ever met Superman, that would be the first question I would ask him. Here’s this guy that can do virtually anything, I’d want to know what kind of spirituality he has, or what his philosophies are, what his theories of life and existence are. So, as I tend to do, I just broke it down to the existential themes. When I got a call, I think it was from Mike Carlin, the editor, and he started talking about that scene, I thought, “Oh, no. Am I getting a little too deep here?” Something that was important to me was going to have to be changed. But, actually, they just didn’t want Superman sitting in the swingset. [laughter] I was told Superman would always be proactive and always

ence that really never should have been taken in. [laughs] I love Yves Chaland’s art, but it’s not conducive with what is my style at its purest, and so it really doesn’t work as an influence, and as big an opportunity as it was, it shouldn’t have been something that I was experimenting on. When I look at it now, it makes me cringe a little bit, because it’s too flat. You’d think that there would have been more life in the line with thicker brushstrokes, but I think it just wasn’t thought through. Just to be clear, I’m happy with it, but when I think of its potential, I’m disappointed. MM: Did that help you with Madman, though? I mean, that’s getting Madman in front of a different crowd. MIKE: Oh, yeah. It was the biggest print run of any Madman comic at that time, for obvious reasons. Also, what was really gratifying about that project was this was the same time that that weird Superman had been killed and then brought back to life in that bizarre costume, so when it came out, it was the only Superman comic with Superman in the classic costume, and that 45

Escher world. That came about at the same time, so it just was a really strange period, with all of this stuff going on, and different art styles, and my collection of other artists doing Madman was going up, too. It was like one “pinch me” moment after another. alert, so I drew Superman scanning around and keeping his eye on things, and that was fine, and I just kept my guy on the swing set. It was a playful, childlike moment. I want to have real moments in my work, and that’s all that was about.

Above: Panel from Madman/The Jam by Mike and Bernie Mireault. Right: Preliminary art for the proposed but unfulfilled Madman/ Daredevil crossover. Next Page: Mike’s favorite page from The Untold Tales of SpiderMan ’96, inked by none other than Joltin’ Joe Sinnott. Madman ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred. The Jam ™ and ©2008 Bernie Mireault. Daredevil, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man ™ and ©2008 Marvel Characters, Inc.

MM: Now, the year before there had been the Nexus Meets Madman crossover. Did you have any involvement in that besides lending them the character? MIKE: With that, I did the exact same thing that Frank Miller did with Big Guy in Madman, I simply wrote the dialogue. Mike Baron had the script very well outlined, and told me in great detail what was going to take place. And, like I said, Steve’s one of my favorite artists, and he even inked it, which is rare. So it’s a gem. I’m really happy that they asked if they could use my guy, and it was like, “Are you kidding? Yes, absolutely.” And I loved Steve’s painted covers, and we’ve collaborated where I’ve drawn stuff and he’s painted it. There’s just something timeless about his stuff, so that was a thrill. Different artists have asked if they could draw Frank Einstein in different books, and they have, but Bernie Mireault, who I did Everyman with—he’s the creator of The Jam, and, again, another big influence on me—we had talked about doing a Madman/Jam crossover. Bernie had this really cool idea about taking him into this M.C. 46

MM: There was almost a Daredevil/Madman crossover, too, right? MIKE: Oh, yeah. That’s really strange. There were a couple of marketing directors after Bob Schreck committed to being only an editor at Dark Horse, and Lou Banks was one of them—a great guy. He was always very energetic and enthusiastic about promoting Madman. He had worked for Marvel earlier. In fact, the first time I ever met him was at one of these early shows I went to, when he was still at Marvel, so I knew about him when he came to Dark Horse. He asked me who my favorite Marvel characters were, and among them was Daredevil. I think that might have been the first character I mentioned. Silver Surfer would have been one, Black Bolt would have been another. But Daredevil, the conversation stopped there, because, like Frank Einstein, he’s not a super-hero in the traditional

sense that he has super-powers, he just has enhanced abilities, which is what Frank Einstein has. They both have kind of a radar sense, although Frank’s is more internal with messing with people’s minds—making them see things or altering their minds. It seemed like a beautiful fit. They were both athletic—the kind of characters that are going to be jumping off of rooftops and running across the top of subway trains and stuff like that. So I thought, “Wow, this is going to be fantastic!” But then, if you remember, there was also a big change in Daredevil’s costume; it was this costume that had a bunch of hooks and horns all over it. MM: Oh, the armor look, yeah. MIKE: Yeah! It just looked awful. And they insisted that that costume be used. I’ve never been a big fan of the revamp, and I’ve tried to avoid that kind of stuff. The only time I gave in was with a Superman pin-up back when he had the mullet. Doing Superman with the mullet, that just caused me endless pain. [laughter] It’s the rarest of occasions when someone can take a classic, iconic character, put their stamp on it, and have it mean anything. It rarely happens. I would prefer to see the industry come in with the best talent taking what is the best of their creations with those being the new icons. It’s just really odd to see a company taking an icon and beating it to death, just finding new ways to keep doing it over and over again. It’s kind of a love/hate relationship that I have with all the great characters— Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man—that make the world go ’round in comic books. I have great affection for these characters, but it’s usually for the initial creations or the definitive version. One exception to that would be Steve Ditko followed by John Romita. As brilliant as Ditko’s work is, Romita surpassed him in some ways, and became the definitive Spider-Man artist. That would be one example where I would say, “Yeah, I have just as much affection for this guy as the original guy.” There are other examples, too, but generally I just don’t want to encourage that. It’s going to go on without me. I don’t necessarily feel that I have to be a part of it.

MM: Well, that brings us nicely to Untold Tales of SpiderMan 1996, where you did kind of a flashback story with Spider-Man, and Joe Sinnott inked you. MIKE: Yeah. That was another “pinch me” moment. Kurt Busiek put that together; he was the writer. Speaking on this love/hate situation, in some circles I’m kind of known as “the retro guy,” and that maybe my stuff is old-fashioned. I find that funny and fun. But, at the same time, I think it’s a fair comment. And my reason for taking these projects certainly reinforced that. It’s like going back to your childhood and being one of those artists from that time period. When you read those 1960s Marvel books and they talk about the Marvel Bullpen, you just imagine 47

all of these people in this big room filled with drawing tables, and everybody’s trading their pages around and urging each other on. Or the EC crew, you kind of get that same perception, that they’re all there together and passing pages around. Like, at EC you’d see Al Williamson passing pages off to Frank Frazetta. That’s the perception you get, even though that wasn’t really the case. But, as a kid, that’s that atmosphere that you daydream about being a part of, and doing these various projects has kind of fulfilled those childhood fantasies. More recently, doing the Fantastic Four story that Stan Lee wrote for the 45th anniversary, those are just priceless moments to be a part of these kinds of things. And then the Teen Titans Special, Bob Haney, the original Teen Titans writer, wrote it, and then to collaborate with Jay Stephens on the artwork, drawing the classic Teen Titans, the original group, in that

time frame, where the story has John F. Kennedy in it, that’s really neat. So I’m just not going to be that guy. Nobody’s going to come to me and ask me to recreate the Batman costume. I’m just not going to be that guy. For me, it would be a question of “Do I put a yellow circle around the bat or not?" [laughter] And I literally dealt with that situation with my DC Solo book and did both. So, for me, with established characters, other people’s creations, I like to pay tribute and just give a big, wet kiss to those creations instead of going, “I’m the person that’s going to improve upon it and bring it up to date.” Now, again, there are exceptions. There are a lot of revamps that I think are fantastic, but I’m usually going to have more enthusiasm for something like the Watchmen, which initially was going to take old characters and revamp them, but instead Alan Moore ended up creating all new characters.

Previous Page: A fun page from Fantastic Four #543, a 45th anniversary special issue. Pencils by frequent collaborator, Nick Dragotta, with finishes by Mike—from a plot by Stan the Man, himself. Below: Two-page spread from Teen Titans Lost Annual #1, which was nearly lost in truth when DC decided to cancel the book after its initial solicitation. Luckily, they came to their senses and published the book some months later. Fantastic Four ™ and ©2008 Marvel Characters, Inc. Teen Titans ™ and ©2008 DC Comics.

Part 4:

Bohemian Like You— Beatniks and Mutants

MM: Well, let’s move on to X-Force then, where you and Peter Milligan threw out the old team and created a whole new cast of characters for the X-universe.

have to create twice as many, because in the first issue we’re going to kill all the new characters.” It was the kind of challenge that I was ready for. Now, at this time I was working on Atomics.

MIKE: That started with Joe Quesada and the editor, Axel Alonso. I had known Joe way back from when he first came on the scene. He showed up around the same time that I did, and we would see each other at shows and stuff, so we had this history. When he got the editorin-chief job at Marvel, I read all of his intentions and what he hoped to do at the company, and it sounded like, again, that party. It was like bringing back the Bullpen atmosphere. So I called him up and said, “Hey, if there’s any place for me at this party, I’d be really interested.” He immediately sicced a bunch of his editors on me to get an idea of where I could fit in with some of the things that they were planning. But it was Axel Alonso who, almost embarrassed, asked if I’d be interested in revamping X-Force. And his initial instincts were correct; I was, like, “No way.” [laughter] But then he told me that Peter Milligan was on board. I had always admired him, and had done that Shade story with him years earlier. And then I was told, “We’re trashing....” Well, maybe I shouldn’t use the word “trashing.” [laughs] “We’re getting rid of the team entirely. It’s going to be X-Force in name only. This is a Marvel mutant book using the X-Force name, but we’re going to need you to create new characters.” Then I perked up. That was, like, “Yes! This sounds great.” Just like the Watchmen example, here in the big spotlight, creating all new characters that would be ours. I immediately started doodling while we were still having this conversation on the phone. All these mutant character ideas started coming to me. He told me, “Not only are we going to need you to create all new characters, you’re going to

MM: Right, I was going to bring that up, because there seem to be some similarities there. The same kind of thing, you’ve created these mutated street beatniks for Atomics, and here with X-Force you have mutants. MIKE: Exactly. Taking a small step back, after this recommitment to comics following the Red Rocket 7 project, Robert Rodriguez, after he passed on Universal, told me that he wanted to do Madman, and if the rights ever reverted to me that he would pick them up. Because of that, and also because the red carpet treatment really gets old after a while when that’s all it is and nothing happens. I just didn’t want to spend more time flying down there and having lunch and.... It was so tiresome. It was really easy to just stop providing input and let it lapse. MM: Did a full script ever get written? MIKE: Yeah, a terrific guy named Dean Lorey wrote a draft and then went on to produce and write on Arrested Development. Robert Rodriguez was the first person to give me any constructive feedback on my draft. The problem with that was the script that I had written started with the plot thread from the original series, but worked really hard to get in elements that were in the current books, like Mott the alien from Hoople. It was just a real mish-mash, and it was really forced, just shoving everything in there. But at the time I wrote it I was thinking that’s the thing 50

to do, jam as much stuff in there as I can. The option lapsed about a year after that, and in the meantime Robert and I got to be really great friends. He came up and stayed at our house, I went down to stay at his house. And calling his house a house is kind of an understatement. [laughs] He’d just finished his palace the first time I went there, and it’s become Disneyland since then. So, by when the option lapsed, Robert immediately snatched it up, and next year is going to be our tenyear anniversary of him optioning the Madman project. We can talk about that later, but what’s most important about this time period was my recommitment to comics. I got with Mike Richardson and told him, “Okay, I’m going to stay away from these esoteric projects. Right now I’m going to completely commit to what I do best.” I had the idea of spinning off the mutant beatniks into a super-hero team, which was The Atomics. With Red Rocket 7, I’d been largely successful with the monthly schedule, and I thought, “Well, I’ll do that now, alternating between Madman and The Atomics.” But Mike was only interested in Madman at this point. They had lost money on Red Rocket 7. I don’t know if they broke even on Feeders and Eyes to Heaven or not. So he really wanted me to do Madman and nothing else. And I don’t blame him. He’s a businessman, and Madman was what sold, Madman was what was proven, so it would make sense to go to a monthly schedule with Madman, which was bi-monthly up until then—if that. It became more sporadic as time went on. During the time period leading up to

this, Jamie Rich—who had been Bob Schreck’s right-hand man, and who would become one of my very best friends—and Schreck left to form Oni Press with Joe Nozemack. Jamie was the heart of Red Rocket 7. There could not have been a better editor for Red Rocket 7. Jamie’s an encyclopedia of music knowledge, and he knew things that we could get excited about in music and films. He’s also a film critic and a novelist. An extremely talented guy, and I couldn’t say enough nice things about him. This is where I’ve really been blessed, 51

Previous Page: The Orphan—the leader of X-Force/X-Statix. Above: Cover art for The Atomics #11, from Mike and Laura’s AAA Pop Comics.

from Shelly Bond, Bob Schreck, Jamie Rich—just great editors. And even for a time Diana Schutz was my editor, when Jamie left to work with Oni Press. Now, because of that, and because of Mike’s lack of enthusiasm for my Atomics project, I started thinking about self-publishing. I was right there seeing everything that Schreck and Joe and Jamie were doing, and they were telling me, “It’s just a matter of doing this, and doing this, and you’re established enough that you should be able to kick if off with some success.” I talked to Diamond and other distributors, and they were willing to give me big play and articles. It just seemed like it was one of these opportunities that I shouldn’t pass up. And, since I’d recommitted myself to comics, I thought I should at least try self-publishing. So we formed AAA Pop Comics and set about publishing The Atomics. I knew that in order to self-publish, the best chance for success would be a monthly schedule. Now, at the same time, I had this remaining contract with Dark Horse for Madman; I had four issues that I owed them. So I did the last four issues of Madman Comics with Dark Horse, and this

was when Diana Schutz was my editor. And, if there was anything that would have kept me at Dark Horse, it would have been Diana. She’s one of the best. And, I have to say, I love and respect Mike Richardson, but at this time he was very distracted with his Hollywood success, and whenever I would go up to Dark Horse— we lived in Eugene and Dark Horse was in Portland. It was not that far, so I was walking my work in and I had this contact, and Mike was rarely there anymore. I just wasn’t getting this feedback and access from the main man like I used to, so I thought I should try being my own main man. All of these circumstances led to our doing AAA Pop Comics. And we did really well with it. We did stick with the monthly schedule, but I have to say it was a grind that I was losing my love for. [laughter] Close to the year mark, I was really rethinking it. It was questions like, are we going to hire people on? Because at this point Laura and I were doing absolutely everything, and Laura was doing most of the bookkeeping as well as the coloring, and it was becoming clear that this was something that a creator shouldn’t be doing unless they want to implode. [laughter] That’s why I made that phone call to Joe thinking that, “You know what, I could use a little break from publishing.” I was

already planning on wrapping up The Atomics, and at that point we were going to relaunch Madman and publish it ourselves. It’s funny, because this would have been 2001 that we were going to launch Madman at Atomic Comics. But, after talking with Joe Quesada and then Axel Alonso’s XForce idea, it took this wide, wide detour. MM: You said the switch was mainly just to recharge your batteries? MIKE: Definitely. I also knew that I could work less for more money. That’s an obvious yes on the statement. I didn’t have a clue what it was going to be about other than a steady paycheck and not having to deal with all of the paperwork that comes with selfpublishing. In many ways, it was a huge vacation, and it took a lot of the burden off of my shoulders. It very much was going to be recharging batteries, and every time I’ve worked with another writer, whether it’s Steve Seagle or Neil Gaiman or Peter Milligan, I’ve learned more as a writer. It’s a completely invaluable learning experience to have those kinds of opportunities, and working with Peter Milligan on X-Force was no exception. It was a thrill to get a new script every month and get these wonderful, exciting things to draw. It centered around this huge Marvel mutant launch, where they 53

Previous Page Top: Unpublished cover intended for Madman Comics, featuring Madman and Adam, a.k.a. Metal Man. Previous Page Bottom: It Girl—the break-out character from The Atomics. Detail from the cover of a trade paperback collection of The Atomics. Above: The Atomics as penciled by Mike and inked and colored by the incomparable Kevin Nowlan.

Below: Mike’s cover art for Ultimate Marvel TeamUp #4, with Iron Man in his classic armor. Next Page: This is not your typical X-book! Page 14 of X-Force #125. Iron Man, Spider-Man, X-Force ™ and ©2008 Marvel Characters, Inc.

relaunched the X-Men series, as well as New X-Men, which was Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely, which I was a gigantic fan of. Frank Quitely is one of my favorite artists. MM: Yeah, he’s really great. MIKE: So we were all part of this great marketing/promotion plan. It’s nice to be in the middle of one of those things, and any artist should do it at least once. [laughter] Have this monumental commercial sense of what to do. [laughter] Also around this time I did a two-issue Spider-Man/Iron Man story with Brian Michael Bendis, so when X-Force came out, this SpiderMan/Iron Man book came out, and I had

two books in the Top 20. That was a first, to see that something that I was doing was that successful commercially. That was exciting, especially because I was doing work that I was really happy with. Axel Alonso, along with my art dealer, Simon Miller, were talking me through what they like about my work, and I was talking about trying to be my own worst critic, but to also then hear what other people are saying. If you look through the progression of The Atomics, I started refining my line again, and I was going back to my original tools, the classic Winsor & Newton Series 7 brush. Simon Miller would be telling me, “I liked your old stuff,” and at first I’d be offended. [laughs] “What’s wrong with my new stuff?” But I really broke it down and tried to figure out what does work for me, and Axel Alonso was giving me the right encouragement and the right guidance to help me get back on that track again, where my artwork felt right, instead of me trying to push it in a direction that just wasn’t natural to me. So, towards the end of The Atomics run and right at the beginning of X-Force, I really started to find what I feel is my natural style, which I’ve mostly stuck with since, with the exception of experimentation in production. MM: With Madman you’ve really tried to remain an all-ages type of book. Some of the concepts may be over younger kids’ heads, but there’s nothing there you’d be afraid to let them look at. That’s not necessarily the case with X-Force. It can get pretty ugly. What did you think when the scripts first started rolling in? MIKE: I haven’t worked that much with the Big Two, especially not with somebody else’s script, so with Peter writing this incredibly violent climax in the first issue of that first X-Force we did, I just stayed true to the script and drew it as he wrote it. My attitude toward violence has always been to use the Alfred Hitchcock approach, where, if you suggest it, it’s going to have more power. But in this case I thought, “This is Peter’s script, let’s show it. Let’s show the ugliness of it, and show the graphic ugliness from these violent acts at the end of the story.” What happened

next was amazing, because at first Axel and others said, “You’re probably going to have to ink in silhouettes or change this somehow, because it’s not going to meet the Comics Code Authority guidelines.” And the next time I heard from them, he was like, “We’re dropping the Code.” That book ended up being the first non-Code book. I think there was a Spider-Man issue back in the late ’60s or early ’70s— MM: The drug issue. MIKE: On the one hand, I think that there should be as much information as possible for people to know the contents of a film or music or a book, especially if they’re parents and they’re concerned about what their children are going to be exposed to. On the other hand, I’m on Frank Miller’s side, which is very militantly anti-censorship. I think that where I would disagree

with Frank is that I do think there can be a balance. I don’t think it has to be either one or the other. It’s information. But, in this case, I was completely supportive of dropping the Code and not having somebody dictate to us. And what that told Peter and I was that we could pretty much do whatever we wanted to. [laughs] It was incredibly liberating, and we just ran with it. It was very satisfying creating new characters, and I loved the relationship I had with Peter, and I felt like I was doing some of the best work I’d ever done. I felt like I was improving in leaps and bounds. MM: I agree with you. MIKE: And then its success warranted a title of its own; where we had taken over the X-Force title, they told us that, “We’re going to start at issue #1 and give you your own title.” We came up with at least 50 57

Previous Page: This co-ed shower scene in XForce #125 is just one of a list that helped earn XForce/X-Statix a PSR+ (Parental Supervision Recommended) on Marvel’s rating system. Above: Extreme violence was prevalent throughout the series’ run, as seen in this two-page sequence from X-Force #126. X-Force ™ and ©2008 Marvel Characters, Inc.

different titles. [laughter] Somebody always had a problem with one or the other, and then, just kind of at the last second, Axel came up with X-Statix. We all actually went, “Yes! It sounds kind of cool, it’s got two Xs in it. So what does it mean?” And we all just kind of threw up our hands and said, “Who cares? It sounds cool.” We went with X-Statix. We just enjoyed the success we were having until I guess we pushed a little too hard when Peter came up with what I still think was a brilliant idea, using Princess Diana and bring her back to life. [laughter] When I say this stuff out loud, I can see why people were very offended by it, but if you saw the script, it was very respectful. It was full of great affection for this woman, who I have great affection for. Anybody that has wealth and fame and puts other people first is a hero in my book, and she did that. She had all this public humiliation and suffering, yet still managed to be this incredibly charitable, loving woman— an example of near-sainthood. In the story it was her empathy that became her power, and I was really in love with this story arc, and spent a lot of time trying to nail down her likeness, and felt I did a good job. About three issues in everything hit the fan, and we were told we couldn’t do it. There were too many people up the chain who were worried about it. We even heard from Buckingham Palace—this was after it was promoted with a doublepage spread in the distributor catalog, so it was out. The genie was out of the bottle, people had seen it, and we were told, “No, you can’t do this.” If you’ve gone a couple years being told you can do whatever you want, and keep having fun, and then all of a sudden you’re told, “No, this is wrong....” I have to say that I didn’t think it was wrong. I have great, deep thoughts and feelings about philosophy and spirituality and life and life after death, and in every way this woman’s memory was honored, with the exception of the relative degradation of being put in a comic book.

And if we’re going to stand up and say this medium has greater worth, this would have been a good opportunity to do that. Now, yeah, it’s a Marvel mutant funnybook, but there was great integrity in the intent, and it was something that I, to this day, feel very strongly about. On the surface, I think you could justify the offense that some few people were feeling about it, but if you look at human history, every time you try to make some kind of statement, whether it’s something huge like civil rights, or something small like keeping a shot in a movie, where do you stand?

Previous Page: The original, pre-touch-up cover art for X-Statix #15, complete with Diana’s tiara. Below: Tike Alicar faces off against Captain America in this selfrejected, unpublished image intended for the cover of X-Statix #23. Captain America, X-Statix ™ and ©2008 Marvel Characters, Inc.

Alonso could not have been better. He couldn’t have been a bigger champion for us. Joe Quesada could not have been a better editor-in-chief or more encouraging, so I have no criticism for anyone but myself in not being able to buck up and power through. But I lost my wind. It all started to fall apart for me, and the orders started to drop, so it just seemed like it was clear to all of us that we needed to wrap it up. And I have great gratitude for Marvel for, at this point, being able to go out with a bang. Everybody involved suggested doing this big Avengers crossover, which allowed me to get my enthusiasm up again and have these characters that we’d created rubbing shoulders and tangling with these legendary characters— some of which I would have preferred to draw in different costumes than others. [laughter] But that’s the problem I have again. At least we were able to go out with a bang, and that pretty much wrapped up my experience on a regular Marvel series. MM: When you first started on X-Force, did you have a set period of time that you figured you’d be on the book. “I’ll do this for a year,” or were you open to seeing where it led?

And I just couldn’t bring myself to redraw the stuff. I was like a balloon that was slowly deflating. We got J. Bone to come in and recreate this character in the ink stage, and I had three more issues to fill out the story arc with this legendary real woman being turned into some kind of pop princess. It just ate me alive from the inside out, and, just trying to be completely honest, I feel like I have to express my real feelings about what happened, but I also have to completely say that Axel 60

MIKE: I was definitely playing it by ear. At first I was thinking maybe a six-issue run, and if it’s continued, somebody else will take over. Obviously, you look at these series from the Big Two and the creators can change like clockwork, so I wasn’t thinking that this was something I was going to build my life and career around. It felt like, “Okay, here’s a new experience,” like doing an issue of Sandman or something. But the way it took off on the one hand, and then the creative satisfaction with my collaboration with Peter and Axel on the other hand, we just were having too much fun to

stop, or even think about stopping. So, yeah, I never really thought about it, but in my mind I knew that I was going to get back to Madman. When it comes right down to it, Madman is what it’s all about. And, also, the professional side of my brain was thinking “After all this, when we do Madman again, it’s just going to give us more of the spotlight.” And, at the same time, Robert Rodriguez and I kept taking steps toward making a Madman film. I started thinking that, “I’ll do Madman again when we either, A) make the movie, or, B) are close to making the movie.” So it was easy for me to become used to putting Madman onto the back burner, but I kept compiling outlines of ideas that I had. When we did get back to what would be the first Madman monthly series, it was going to be with all of these ideas behind it and this catalog of storylines. With Robert, originally we were going to do Madman after a James Bond kids’ movie. That became Spy Kids, and then it was a huge hit. It surprised everybody, and broke a hundred million in a couple of weeks or something. It was truly a phenomenon, so then Robert was tasked with the challenge of sequels, and if they’re gonna do sequels, they’d better do them fast, because the kids aren’t gonna stop growing. And so Spy Kids 2 came into play. Robert’s always kept me involved in his stuff. In fact, our little girl, Kelby, was in Spy Kids 2 in the banquet scene, and Laura and I make an appearance in that scene, too. This is the kind of guy Robert is: he had all his friends with kids come in for that scene, flew them in from all over the country. And it was just fun. Like, Cheech Marin arrived at the airport with us, and he is there with his daughter in the scene, and Richard Linkletter is there in front of us with his kid. That’s the atmosphere that you have whenever you’re with Robert or at his facilities. That was followed by Spy Kids 3-D, and then he had a commitment with Columbia to make another El Mariachi movie. Then I got a call from Robert asking me the best way to approach Frank Miller about adapting Sin City. In my mind I’m thinking, “Okay, I’m getting this. [laughs] So we’re talking about pushing Madman back again?” And he said, “Well, everything that I want to do on Sin City is a giant experiment which is ultimately going to benefit Madman. Sin City is going to be in black-&-white; it’s going to be easier using this technology.” And the thing with Robert is, if he says something to you, you know it’s not bull. He’s being straight with you. I knew the best way to sell Frank on the idea, and it’s important to keep in mind, Frank had written a screenplay for Sin City years before, and he had decided that he didn’t want to get involved with that. You know, he had done the Robocop films, and he had done the Hollywood thing and was supposedly disenchanted with it, and so was taking no offers from Hollywood at all. I had a feeling that would be different with Robert, and that the person that would really be able to see how to make Frank see it was Bob Schreck. Bob, who’s this incredible encyclopedia of knowledge of film and pop culture in general, and also one of Frank’s best friends, as well, convinced Frank to meet with Robert. Robert had already taken the initiative to make a short film with Marley Shelton and 61

Below: More actionpacked storyboards for the Madman movie. Next Page: Mike’s inks over Darwyn Cooke’s pencils for Catwoman #4, page18.

Josh Hartnett. That shows you what kind of guy Robert is. So when he met with Frank, he was already able to show him what it would look like. Of course, Frank was blown away, and the rest is history. After that, the Madman movie became just a matter of breaking the code and making the right screenplay. I have to take full responsibility in the Madman movie not being closer to production, because I kept waiting for Robert to offer up his ideas for the screenplay when he was trying to direct me into taking another stab at it. When I’d go down to Austin, we’d keep building this outline, and it was really on me to start putting it together in screenplay form, and I would always put that off. Eventually, he hooked me up with one of his oldest friends, George Huang. When he first went to Hollywood, he slept on George’s floor, a guy who worked at Columbia, and later, inspired by his experiences there, wrote and directed Swimming with Sharks. It’s a great movie with Kevin

Spacey and Frank Whaley. A brilliant movie. George is a genius on story structure and that sort of thing. So George came up here and stayed in our houseboat, and we locked ourselves down there and got the initial story down that we could present to Dimension, which is where Robert wanted to take it. We created this treatment, and, through George, it was almost like therapy. You know, “What do you want? How do you see the film? What elements do you want in there? Why is the character doing this, and what’s going to bring this around?” It was really great how George just kind of broke it down. And this is how he works with Robert. He’s worked with Robert on most if not all of his films. And it broke the code. This takes us up to about a year ago, when we finalized our deal with Dimension, and now they’re paying us to finish the screenplay. We’d done a draft, but now we can’t do any more work because of the Writer’s Guild strike. Another holding pattern.

Part 5:

Who Are You— the Mind of a Madman

MM: Catwoman came about during your run on X-Force. How did you get involved with that?

this stuff and it was so fully formed and unique and electric, I just loved it. Ed called up Darwyn and we met at a restaurant somewhere, and Darwyn and I just hit it off. We like the same things—the same movies, the same music. So I signed on, and it was just incredibly therapeutic. It was the kind of thing that I could just let my brush go, and it just seemed very natural, and I absolutely loved it.

MIKE: In regards to revamps and not being a fan, I do have some examples of revamps which I think are successful and which I celebrate, and the most obvious one, for me, would be Ed Brubaker and Darwyn Cooke’s take on Catwoman. I had seen one promo piece on it, and soon after was at a comic book show, I think San Diego, and ran into Ed Brubaker, who I’ve known since our very first WonderCon. He told me that the artist, Darwyn Cooke, was looking for an inker, and, when asked for his dream list, put me at the top. I told Ed that he was full of it, but he told me, no, really, sincerely, that Darwyn loved my work, and if he could pick any inker, he would want it to be me. MM: Did you know Darwyn’s work at that point? He hadn’t done much yet, as far as comics go—only Batman: Ego and maybe something else. MIKE: Batman: Ego was probably the only thing that I was familiar with. And I liked it, but I probably just saw it as in the Bruce Timm school of cartoonists. There would be these Batman specials that would utilize the folks that worked on the animated series, and Ego had that look. So, at the time, I didn’t look deep enough to see what was special about Darwyn’s stuff. It was successful on that level, but didn’t strike me the way that Catwoman did. I just thought that was some of the most exciting stuff I’d seen in years. MM: So they sent you several pages to look at before you signed on? MIKE: Actually, I think it was the hotel hallway where Ed and I were talking, and he opened up his bag and showed me some of the pencils, and I think right then and there I said, “If you’re telling me the truth and Darwyn wants me to be a part of this, I’m there.” Because I just looked at 63

MIKE: It is. Very much. If I didn’t have my own projects which I’m very passionate about controlling from beginning to end, I could easily see myself in an inking career, especially working with pencilers I admire. Again, therapeutic is the word I would use to describe it. It’s a nice break from the intensity of doing your own work, which can be draining in the process. It’s invigorating, but it can also be draining. Inking, for me, is just very relaxed and it just feels really nice and very comfortable. It’s just another collaboration that you can learn from. And when you’re not only inking somebody else’s art, but having them ink yours, you can see a whole new perspective. I would never hesitate to encourage somebody to collaborate as much as possible, because you’re always going to learn and grow from those collaborations. And you also develop really fun, exciting, and mutually supportive relationships in the business. That was a lot of the fun with XForce and X-Statix, when we would bring in these other amazing people and they would do their takes on characters we had created. So, whether it was Darwyn or Paul Pope on our X-Statix characters, it was always a party. And then, with Nick Dragotta, who Axel brought in. I didn’t have any of my favorite cartoonists in reserve, and Nick was able to do a fill-in. To be fair to him, it was one of these books that was due two weeks ago, and he had to do a rush job on it. Considering that and also knowing what he’s completely capable of, he didn’t show all his magic in that book. But, given the time that he had, he did an amazing job. And our son colored that issue, too, so we have a lot of affection for that particular issue.

Darwyn has become very close to our family. He’s come and visited, and we’ve sat around and I’d draw something, he’d draw something, and then we’d slide them across the table and ink each other’s drawings. It’s that kind of relationship. We’re very supportive of each other’s work, and he’s one of my favorite people, as well as one of my favorite artists. That’s definitely one of the best experiences I’ve had with a friendship with someone else in the business.

MM: After X-Statix you began working on The Golden Plates. What gave you the idea to do something that ambitious? That’s a pretty big undertaking. MIKE: I was raised Mormon, but I never really locked into the Scriptures. You know, I was brought up, you go to Sunday school and learn from The Bible—the Old Testament, the New Testament—and also The Book of

MM: How was it for you just being the inker? Is that something you enjoy doing? 64

Mormon, but as far as sitting down and reading those scriptures, that wasn’t anything I was necessarily drawn to, or ever wanted to do, or had any interest in. But then, without going into any great detail, I had this very deep, spiritual experience where I became intensely interested in all things spiritual and wanted to know where people got their belief systems, and how much a part it was in their lives. And also the big questions, like what life was in general. In trying to understand Buddhism and Islam and Judaism and Catholicism, I then also turned to the faith of my heritage. My parents, and my aunt gave me a journal written by my great-great-grandfather, Reddick Allred, who was part of the great pioneer movement of Brigham Young, and came all the way from New York, and set up home after home and get burnt out of.... The largest pioneer movement in American history occurred because of the Mormons trying to find a place where they could practice their beliefs. This great community would move from New York to Ohio to Missouri, etc., finally settling in the Salt Lake Valley. At the same time, a large group of church members went in ships founding and settling San Francisco, believe it or not. All this is historically accurate—stuff that I had no interest in, and, because of that, no knowledge of. But in opening up my mind and having this keen interest in all things spiritual, this brought in some history, including the history of my family. Reading these journals from my great-grandfather, and everything he went through and believed in and fought for, just trying to find a place to be happy and live in peace, it just struck me with an importance to understand what it was all about. So I studied up on church history and then ultimately read The Book of Mormon in full, and found it to be this incredibly vibrant thousand-year history of these people who left Jerusalem 600 years before Christ and found their way to what is largely believed to be the Guatemala area of Central America. You read through The Book of Mormon and there are records that get passed down, and these records are kept on metal plates—on brass plates and then abridged onto gold plates—and they tell a history of these people and the resurrected Jesus Christ coming to visit them in the Americas, teaching them the Gospels the same way they’re recorded in the New Testament.

I remember hearing in school that when Captain Cook discovered the Hawaiian Islands that they thought he was the Great White God come again. And you hear about the Aztecs and all of these other ancient people who had these same legends or beliefs in the Great White God, and you start thinking, “Wow, could any of this be true?” [laughs] And, whether you decide it is or not, it’s certainly interesting. So I set about approaching this stuff, trying to find a balance between my intellectual interests and my spiritual interests. And that inspired me to write the history in graphic novel form of the life of Joseph Smith who, at the age of 14, said that he saw God and Jesus Christ. Here was this 14-year-old boy

Previous Page: More Cooke/Allred goodness. Page 19 of Catwoman #4. Below: A page from The Golden Plates—Mike’s comic book adaptation of The Book of Mormon. Batman, Catwoman ™ and ©2008 DC Comics. The Golden Plates ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred.

who wants to know the truth of all things, and that struck me because that was kind of where I was at in my life. There’s a very aggressive and enthusiastic group known as anti-Mormons who do all they can to criticize things in the Mormon church. There’s also a very active group of archaeologists who have been working to support the truthfulness of the things that

are written in The Book of Mormon. So intellectually I tried to look at the arguments of people trying to prove it’s wrong, and then also look at the various evidence that works to prove it’s true. The entire process just stimulated me creatively. If this was true, then we aren’t biological accidents, and there is a purpose and plan for our existence and there is something beyond death. That seemed to even the playing field for me spiritually, so I began studying the religion of my forefathers and thought that rather than me telling the history of Joseph Smith, that I would take an even bigger bite and try to detail the purpose of his life, which was to associate all faiths and show that ultimately we’re all under the same God, we just have different interpretations. And that amounted to illustrating The Book of Mormon. MM: Has it been difficult trying to adapt it to the graphic novel format? MIKE: The Book of Mormon is written in that kind of King James Bible, Old English style of language. You know, scripture, and Shakespeare, is not always the easiest thing to read and understand, so I set about to just try to clarify the events and not try to get bogged down in the doctrine, but to just illustrate the events so that if somebody were to read it, that they could clearly go, “Oh, this is this person, and now the record’s being passed on to this person.” There are a couple of flashbacks in The Book of Mormon where one people meets another people, and then that people then tells of the events that happened 20 years before, so if you’re not careful in reading The Book of Mormon, you can get lost very easily as to when these things take

place. There’s one book called “Ether,” where a whole other history of a whole other people gets told all the way back to the Tower of Babel. So it’s really complex. Having said that, it might be clear why, especially now, in just working on it in what little spare time I have, this is something that is going to take me several years to complete. MM: Do you have a page count in mind of what it’s going to end up being? MIKE: I think my best estimate was twelve 64-page volumes, and I’ve completed three of those. I’m pretty happy with what I’ve gotten done so far, although there are a couple of times where it gets bogged down in doctrine a little bit. It’s slow going, but it’s something that I find endlessly interesting. I need to stay focused on the events in the text. MM: Did you have any trouble with Diamond as far as getting them to distribute the series? MIKE: Not one little bit. In fact, the complete opposite. I was overwhelmed with how supportive and enthusiastic they were in promoting it. With the initial release I think they gave it a Gem of the Month, and they did a feature on it, so they were nothing but supportive. In fact, it’s largely due to them that I was able to get as much done as I did before having to get back to my more commercial work. It’s funny to now think of the Madman universe as being commercial [laughs], but in contrast to The Golden Plates, it’s definitely more commercial. I’m confident that’ll flip when it’s all complete. MM: It sounds like the kind of project, too, that will work better as a collection rather than as individual issues. I would think it would be more popular with libraries and in mainstream book stores.

feel, so when the time presents itself and the planets have lined up properly [laughter], then I do some work on it. It’s really slow going, and ultimately it’s the kind of thing where I might actually wait to finish it and release it as one big volume rather than release it in installments anymore. I’m not sure. I’m completely confident that, when it’s complete, it’s the kind of thing that will stay in print, and will have a continual life of its own. That alone makes it a worthwhile goal.

MIKE: Yeah, that’s definitely true. Initially there was a curiosity factor which made it phenomenally successful, and we were able to coast on the fumes of the success of the first volume. But when people realize, “Oh, this is only one of twelve,” and the second volume came out I don’t know how many months after the first one, and the third even much later after that, at that point Laura and I realized that we needed to get a financial footing if we were going to continue with it in any form. Realism struck, and we accepted that it was something that we would have to just do on a multi-year basis. I think ultimately it will benefit from that, too, because there are various skills that I’ve been able to benefit from in the meantime.

MM: How did Solo come about? I assume it started with Mark Chiarello. MIKE: Well, it came from the invitation of Mark Chiarello, and when he first described the project, it sounded like the coolest thing ever. It’s a series where he invited a select group of artists and gave them 48 pages to do whatever they wanted within that single book.

MM: Do you have any goals like, “I need to get out at least one volume a year,” or anything like that?

MM: There was a prerequisite you had to have at least one story with a DC character. Most of the artists involved put in one or two of those, but you did all your stories with DC characters.

MIKE: No, really, it’s such a daunting task to begin with that I’m trying not to push myself at all. It’s more by 67

Look at the cool Batcave! Look at the secret doors to the poles where you slide down into the Batcave!” All of that was just the coolest stuff a kid could imagine, and we pretended to have all that stuff in our backyard. So I wanted to take all of that and filter it through the eyes of an adult. I originally proposed this as a big one-shot, and it sat on a shelf at DC for a while, and Solo gave me an opportunity to drag it out again. I got with my older brother, who shared the same passions I did when we were kids, and he took my outline and broke it down and gave it some flavor, where I didn’t have the same perspective. He’s a couple years older than me, and he was able to straddle that line between being critical of the show and seeing it how a kid would perceive it being. He also has a deep, encyclopedic knowledge of comic book history, and he could tell you who all the most obscure characters are, that maybe only ever appeared in one issue. He’s got that kind of brain. From there, I asked him to help me with my Teen Titans story, “Doom Patrol vs. Teen Titans,” and then he put the icing on the cake by giving me this story that reflected our childhood and our experiences with going down to the second-hand store and buying what are now thousanddollar comic books for a nickel. [laughter]

MIKE: Yeah, considering almost everything I was doing was with my own characters, it certainly didn’t appeal to me to then go to DC and create more characters in a DC book. For me it was an opportunity to do what I originally wanted to do: work with all my favorite childhood characters. To a large extent, I had just done that with Marvel, where I was working with almost all of my favorite Marvel characters in one way or another, especially with the big bang send-off of XStatix. And I’d also done the Spider-Man stuff and the Fantastic Four stuff, so I had exorcised a lot of those daydreams from childhood in the Marvel Universe. With Mark’s call, here was this invitation to do the same thing in the DC Universe. So, without question, I wanted to use every single page to draw as many DC characters as I possibly could. Also in the invitation was a challenge to experiment. When he said, “Do whatever you want,” he meant that, and you don’t normally get the chance to just kind of play around with your style without confusing the readers and shaking things up in a negative way, and here was this one-shot where anything goes. Talk about getting a fire lit under you, I was pumped and just jumped at it. The ideas came fast and furious, but I also had a concept which had been abandoned a couple of years before, which was called Batman A-Go-Go, where I wanted to express my love of the Batman TV show. As a kid, you look at Adam West in the Bat-suit and it’s totally serious. I completely took everything seriously, and I didn’t see the camp, the cheesy, winking-at-the-audience, adult perspective of the television show. I saw it as, “Wow! Look at the cool car!

MM: Did you draw that story from memory, or did you have photos of the street the way it used to be? MIKE: Well, I went home and took pictures of all the places. I definitely used photo-reference for the second 68

hand store, which isn’t a second hand store now but the building is still there. The music store doesn’t exist anymore. Fortunately I had photos from our childhood of these places, too, which I was able to use. Most everything I either had reference from childhood photographs or the buildings were at least close enough that I could then work from memory to make it look the way it did when we were kids. MM: Looking at the issue as a whole, you seemed to just have a complete blast with it. Was your brother excited about actually writing a story that DC was going to publish? MIKE: Yeah! He’s actually a highly regarded writer in his own right. He works in a lot of science fiction anthologies—a prose writer. Like, if you see these Ray Bradbury anthologies and Isaac Asimov anthologies, that’s where you’ll see his work. He does a lot of short stories, and right now he’s working on a big novel. He’s also in the Guard; he’s been sent to Iraq three times and almost had to go to Afghanistan. He also disappears for months at a time, and he works in stuff that he’s not allowed to talk about. I don’t know if that’s true or if he just likes being mysterious. [laughter] But what is true is that he’s gone for months at a time, then he comes back and it’s great. It’s something that he actually enjoys. He doesn’t have a family. He’s kind of, I guess, a loner. If you’ve seen Pee Wee’s Big Adventure where Pee Wee says that he’s “a loner, a rebel,” maybe that would be the best way to describe my older brother. But it works for him, because there are long periods of time where he’s got nothing to do but just sit there and write, and that’s what he enjoys doing the most. MM: Well, that Doom Patrol/Teen Titans story was a whole lot of fun. It looked like you really worked, especially with the inking of that story, to make it give that classic Silver Age feel. MIKE: Yeah. Over time it’s become my favorite. When the book was first finished, I wasn’t sure if “Batman A-Go-Go” was my favorite piece or the nostalgia piece at the end where I drew dozens of DC characters and jammed them all together. Now I would say that “Doom Patrol vs. Teen

Titans” is my favorite story, and it’s because of the script, it’s because of the whole feel of the story, with the party going on upstairs above the Doom Patrol, and also the care that we took into making it look like an older story, yet with the nice, contemporary polish. I scanned old, pulpy paper to give it that pulpy background, and we used some half-tones to get the big dots, and then shifted the colors a little bit so they were off-register. It all worked, and it all just feels really good. And doing those experiments has led us to try other things with textures. The Hourman story, where everything is in an almost monotone world, yet Hourman has 69

Previous Page: Another page from “Batman AGo-Go,” a story which applied modern sensibilities to the world of the ’60s Batman TV show. Above: The Doom Patrol crashes the party in this page from Solo #7. Batgirl, Batman, Bat-Mite, Doom Patrol, Mon-el, Supergirl, Teen Titans, and all related characters ™ and ©2008 DC Comics.

Above: With “Fourth World Wager,” Mike came upon a drawing technique he’s quite pleased with and is now incorporating into his regular work. Next Page: Cover art for X-Statix Presents: Dead Girl #5, penciled by Nick Dragotta and finished by Mike.

the bright yellow cape, and then with the New Gods two-pager I was able to experiment with some watercolor techniques and then see what we could do with those textures in Photoshop. Every story had either a goal or extreme opportunity to experiment, and that’s in many ways led to what has developed into my favorite style yet, where I’m able to keep original pencil tones and washes which normally would not be part of the final artwork before being scanned into the computer. What that has allowed me to do is to make my drawings as lush as possible. It reinvigorated my love of the pencil, where, before, a pencil had just become a quick tool to get to the inking stage as quickly as possible. Now I’ve gone back to deeper and more satisfying pencil rendering, and keeping the textures and feel and quality that only a pencil can do. Now the sky’s the limit, and that’s resulted in very organic original art that is maintained all the way through the printing, the final stage in the printing process. It’s opened everything up, and if I hadn’t done that Solo book, I don’t know when I would have had the opportunity to attempt to do some of the things which we’ve done. MM: I see that Fourth World story as the big step to what you’re doing now, and what you 70

also did in the Dead Girl mini-series and XMen: First Class story. But with those two projects, you weren’t doing the penciling. You were just doing the inking or finishing—I’m not sure to what extent—over Nick Dragotta. MIKE: Yeah, this is where Nick gets a big slap on the back. [laughs] Peter wanted to do a Dead Girl mini-series, and Axel was trying to get me on board. But I kind of felt like I’d been there, done that. Although I was excited about working with Peter and Axel again, I just didn’t have the concentration or time, as I was working on The Golden Plates and trying to figure out how to relaunch Madman. It was difficult for me to completely commit to the full-on art of a Dead Girl mini-series. So Axel suggested what if somebody did the layouts, and suggested Nick. Nick had shown that he was a can-do guy, working quickly, so I kind of opened myself up to that, and it actually ended up being a really great experience. Nick at first did fully-rendered pencils, even though he had been asked to just do layouts. Then we went back and forth and developed this really nice chemistry where Nick eventually found out just enough to give me, and I was able to get just enough from him to where I could then take what I really enjoy about his style—and I really

the X-Men story he wanted to put a little bit more of himself in it, and I was fine with that. And with that Spider-Man: Fairy Tales story, that’s much more Nick than it was me. I was happy to just lay back and be more of a traditional inker on that one.

gained a deep appreciation for his style at its purest core—and at the same time be able to, finishing the pencils and inking it, put enough of my style into it where I felt like it was mine on a very deep, satisfying level. I like the combination a lot. There are a lot of sequences and panels which I think are some of the best things I’ve ever been a part of. It was also the first opportunity I had to experiment with leaving pencil textures and wash textures with the original art and figuring out how to use them in Photoshop, either loading the texture and creating a whole other color, or getting rid of it entirely. So I was penciling in blue pencils, largely, while doing washes in blue that could easily be taken out in the scanning process, or kept, if I liked the texture, if I liked how it looked. Dead Girl, from Solo, was the next logical step in trying to develop new, liberating ways to being as organic as possible as opposed to putting modeling techniques in Photoshop afterward—keeping that modeling in its most pure, organic form in the original drawing. That’s what I’ve been shooting for, and I’m very satisfied where we’ve gotten with it so far. So Dead Girl was invaluable for that reason. And, also, developing this relationship with Nick. He’s definitely my goto guy, even to where my older brother wrote a short Atomics story, an eightpager which is going to be in issue #8 of Madman Atomic Comics, and Nick did the layouts for that, too. Nick’s style is really fun and easy to build up an enthusiasm for finishing it up, and he’s my first choice to lay out anything for me, at this point.

MM: Did Peter put in Gwen Stacy just for you? MIKE: I think so. [laughter] Yeah, I’ve whined about it so often. Yeah. And the Spider-Man movies just totally botched it. Imagine if they had introduced Kirsten Dunst as Gwen Stacy in the first Spider-Man movie, imagine where they could have gone with that. SpiderMan 3 would have just been a huge heartbreaker, and it would have been natural to have Mary Jane there. MM: That brings us up to Madman Atomic Comics. MIKE: Really? [laughter] MM: We talked about how long it’s taken to get it to relaunch, but were you working on ideas for what you wanted to do during that intermission? MIKE: Oh, definitely. A huge outline. A lot of which has been discarded after choosing various directions, and also taking out stuff that might have been interesting to me before and now isn’t. But it’s definitely given me a clear path. I’m at a point today where I’m thrilled with everything that’s happened before, because I’ve never been happier with what’s in front of me, I’ve never been happier with the output of work, the style which has developed over time, the confidence, the process, and it’s the most gratifying time in my career. I’m thrilled with being able to put this out in the format that it’s in, which goes back to those first four Mister X comic books, which really got me on the path to attempt being a professional comic book artist, and now to have that exact format to play with and fulfill all those creative goals. That’s there, and everything that we’ve learned from self-publishing I’ve been able to apply with my relationship with Image.

MM: After Dead Girl, you worked with Nick again on a short piece in the X-Men: First Class Special, and there was the issue of Spider-Man: Fairy Tales that came out not long ago. MIKE: Also the 45th anniversary special of Fantastic Four. Here I am working with Stan Lee! I wouldn’t have had that opportunity if I didn’t have Nick to step up and allow me to accept that project. I think in the case of 72

MM: Why did you pick Image to publish the book? MIKE: Well, the reason that I hadn’t done Madman Atomic Comics was because when I did come back to Madman, I wanted to have the biggest launch possible. The Madman movie has been dangled out in front of me as a carrot for close to ten years now, and that was always an easy excuse to say, “Well, I’ll do it when the movie comes out, because then what better time could I possibly have to have a new series come out than with a major feature film?” But it finally got down to where—as patient as I am for the film, and as confident as I am that when it does get made, it will benefit from the time and will be the best it can be, and certainly under the best circumstances, the way that Robert Rodriguez works—I still was aching to get back to where I was happiest and had the most fulfillment creatively. Now, on a significance basis, The Golden Plates may be the most important thing I ever do, just as an example of an adaptive religious text. I mean, just on that basis, it holds significance. But, to be honest, working in the Madman universe, this world that I’ve created with all these characters I have affection for, is where I’m happiest, and I just couldn’t hold it off any longer. At that point the question was, are we going to self-publish this or is there a satisfying way to work with a publisher that would take the burden of all of the administrative chores that self-publishing has and give me more time to concentrate where I’m happiest—on the creative end of things. I toyed with the idea of going back to Dark Horse or working with Oni Press, who I have a great relationship with, but I also have this nice mutual admiration and respect with Erik Larsen. Of all the Image guys who broke out and became successful, Erik is the guy that has continued to work out of just pure love of comics and his Savage Dragon character, and has since become the publisher of Image. We’ve collaborated where my characters have appeared in Savage Dragon and Savage Dragon appeared in the last story arc in The Atomics. I also heard about the way that they work with creators, where they just take one fee for the administrative duties on

projects, so it was a natural step to call up Erik and, first off, ask him if he thought it would be a good fit. He was excited about it, which made me more excited about it. As we kept talking over time, he hooked me up with his right-hand man, Eric Stephenson, and among the group there were all of these ideas for what they wanted to do with it, promotion-wise. And on paper, just the money that we would save from working with a publisher, it just all added up to being the perfect place at the perfect time. At this point, almost a year in, it’s been ideal. I’ve not had a single complaint. Any problems with production have only come from me. [laughs] 73

Previous Page: Spidey and Gwen—the “real” girlfriend. Above: Mike’s cover pencils for Madman Atomic Comics #1.

Above: A two-page spread from Madman Atomic Comics #1, featuring our hero and much of his supporting cast and past guest-stars. Next Page: Inside Frank Einstein’s brain! Opening splash page of Madman Atomic Comics #2. Madman and all related characters ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred. Big Guy ™ and ©2008 Frank Miller and Geof Darrow. Hellboy ™ and ©2008 Mike Mignola. Savage Dragon ™ and ©2008 Erik Larsen.

Everybody on their end has just been the best. And also, one of my favorite people that I’ve ever worked throughout my career is my buddy and longtime editor Jamie Rich, and we’re collaborating in that relationship again. And then Joe Keatinge’s marketing and all the swell production folks. It’s just perfect on every level. MM: Let’s talk about the storyline a bit. Obviously you wanted to reestablish, for people who may not have read Madman before, what the series is about. The first arc opens with this weird dream world, where you’re not completely sure what’s going on. What were you working towards in the first storyline in exploring just who Frank Einstein is? MIKE: I had wanted to create the definitive Madman comic, because I’ll be the first person to admit that, from its original concept with the two-color series going into Madman 74

Adventures, which was Tintin-inspired, and then into Madman Comics, which was an ongoing, there were different adjustments made. And there’s also the work on at least three different drafts of a screenplay, trying to define the definitive Madman for a feature film. After feeling like that code was cracked while collaborating on the current draft with George Huang, I now have a clear vision of what I want to do. At that point it was, “How do I establish the true reality of the world that I want, and how do I put the characters in place, setting them up to have the ongoing series that I want, and the relationships that I want?” The first series had a dreamlike quality, and because it had a raw feel, as my style was in its infancy—in addition to the two-color format, which gave it kind of a dreamy feel—I felt I was able to do this recap and decide what really happened and what didn’t happen and what was part of Frank’s mental problems. [laughs] I was able to kind of

Above: Two-page spread from Madman Atomic Comics #2. Next Page Top: While Madman sought out his true identity, Mike paid tribute to his artistic heroes and influences in Madman Atomic Comics #3. In Mike’s eyes, this page featuring tributes to Dave Stevens, Charles Burns, the Hernandez Bros., Chester Brown, and Dan Clowes was the most successful as a whole. Next Page Bottom: As far as individual panels, though, Mike thinks the Charles Addams panel is tops. Madman ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred.

rewrite history in some ways, and to adhere to the things which I was happy with, and which would also be consistent with what I wanted to do and consistent with the film. It was at that point that I came up with the idea of this carousel that took him through this journey in his brain to where he finds out who he is and also comes to terms with who he was in his previous life. That allowed me to then build up this epic story which launched into “Madman in Space,” which was a fun idea that I’d toyed with way back in... wow, I think it was probably between Madman Adventures and Madman Comics that I started building that idea up. I was able to move that up and connect it to this soulsearching storyline. And that’s what I’m wrapping up right now. Those are the pages in front of me, the last few pages of this huge arc that goes from his identity crisis, to beating his fears, and then this space opera. MM: Let’s talk about the third issue a bit, because it’s an interesting juxtaposition. 76

The dialogue reflects Frank discovering who he is and picking out what’s true and what’s not, but artistically you were kind of saying, “This is who I am, and I’m an amalgam of all these people, but I have a unique voice because of that.” Was that kind of going through your mind at all? MIKE: Again, this is one of the things that I benefited from over time. This is something that I had always wanted to do. I wanted to pay tribute to the artists that have influenced me and inspired me, and Frank going through this inner turmoil and what is real and what’s not real, and these different layers of reality, was the perfect opportunity for me to work on this idea where every panel would be a different reality, a different dimension, or a different perception. It was a natural fit. It was the perfect time to do the entire issue and have Frank Einstein phase through all these different styles and then end up with what is really him, which is, of course, my style, a style which I feel

confident with. I feel my work is now defined enough so as not to be completely smothered by all of the great people that I’m paying tribute to. In other words, I couldn’t have done it before. I didn’t have the skills, or tools, or confidence to attempt replicating the different styles and then have them book-ended with mine. MM: How many of the panels were direct swipes, and how many were just trying to convey the feel of the style? MIKE: I would say all or most are an amalgam. I would start with a panel that I liked—maybe I liked the way the figure looked or something—but then there would also be some other element that I wanted to be a part of the image to define the style as much as possible, so every panel had a specific panel as a jumping off point. MM: Is there any artist in particular whose style you think you were able to really capture the essence of? MIKE: The overall page that I was happy with was the one that begins with the Dave Stevens panel, goes to Charles Burns, the Hernandez Bros., Chester Brown, and then Dan Clowes. I felt that I was successful enough with each of those styles that each panel had a very clear jump. And I also liked the combination of each of those artists on the page. As I go through each of the individual panels, I’d say the one I was most successful with would be the Charles Addams panel. I had to replicate his use of washes. Some were more successful because they were just easy, like the Charles Schulz sequence. It’s just really easy to copy those characters. So it would be the easiest one and more successful, but not the most satisfying because it was easy. The Wally Wood one I’m really happy with. I feel like I nailed that one pretty good. Some, like the Alex Toth panel or the Bruno Premiani, are not specific enough to really stand out as much as I would have liked them to, although I do feel that I was somewhat successful. Ironically, the page I’m least happy with is the Jack Kirby/Steve Ditko page. I’ve taken so much inspiration from Kirby over the years, I’m kind of disappointed that I wasn’t able to really explode that one out the way I think it should have been done. I’m very happy with all of it, especially knowing what went into it, but there are some that I’m definitely much happier with than others. My second favorite page of the whole would be the EC page, which starts with Harvey Kurtzman and goes through Bill Elder, Johnny Craig, Bernie Krigstein, and Jack Davis. I’m really happy with that page. Bernie Krigstein is one of my favorite artists, but has such a unique style that it’d be really hard to ever specifically draw any inspiration from it without totally ripping it off. [laughs] He’s the kind of artist that you just celebrate for his uniqueness. The Frank Frazetta page I’m really happy with. MM: Yeah, I thought that one turned out really well. 77

Below: Cover pencils (and tones) for Madman Atomic Comics #5. Next Page: The opening splash page from Madman Atomic Comics #5.

MIKE: And whereas some people may not see what a huge influence Frazetta has been on me, that page was completely derived from his comic book work. When you think Frank Frazetta, you think of his painting, but I’m heavily influenced by his comic books and his comic strips. MM: Yeah, I thought I saw a Johnny Comet figure. MIKE: Oh, yeah, Johnny Comet was huge for me. The way Frazetta draws women in his comics has been a huge influence on me, as opposed to how he does them in his paintings. MM: What do you see as the future of

Madman. I mean, I know you don’t want to get into the specifics of stories and that kind of thing, but how long do you see it going? I know, way back when, you said that you wanted to do 102 issues of Madman. Is that still the plan? MIKE: You know what? I said that in an interview just kind of boisterously, because Jack Kirby, when it comes right down to it, is kind of the be-all, end-all. I’ve talked about how much I admire him as a unique person that put something out there that, in many ways, created the language of comic books. Jack Kirby is somebody that you would want to be like. You would want to be the kind of person he was: kind and generous and giving and honest, and also forthright and stalwart. He stood on what was right. If he drew the battle line on something, he held to that. On every level, he’s one of the most justifiably admirable people that has ever worked in comics. So when his most successful work, in my opinion—certainly the work that I celebrate the most, Fantastic Four, amounted to 102 issues, give or take, that, for me, when being asked what kind of goal I would set for myself, that was the first thing that came to mind. If I’m going to set a goal, why not try to match the goal of somebody who I had such deep admiration for? If I had that as a realistic goal, if that was going to be a plan beyond just some offhand quote, then, first of all, I’d want to be doing a monthly book. A more realistic goal would have been, say, to set that goal with X-Statix, since I was collaborating and not having to do everything. But now, with Madman being the core of my output, it may just amount to that. I think, overall, including crossovers, we’re into 30some issues, so when it’s all said and done, who knows? We may have gone over that. But, as of today, is Madman Atomic Comics what I want to be doing? Yes. Yes, it is. I could definitely see myself doing this for the rest of my career, especially because I’ve got plans to have other things in the title. In other words, Madman won’t necessarily be starring in every single story that appears between the covers. Issue #8 is going to have two different stories in it, although they’re both Madman- and Atomics-oriented, but I’ve also got some other stories that are going to appear

Below: Another of Mike’s storyboards for the Madman movie. Next Page: Some of Mike’s most recent work, the cover of Crack Comics #63 (a.k.a. Next Issue Project #2), featuring The Clock pushing Captain Triumph aside. Madman ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred. Next Issue Project ™ and ©2008 Image Comics, Inc.

either as short back-ups, or maybe they’ll take center stage. What I’ve allowed Madman Atomic Comics to be for me is an umbrella title that could turn into an anthology of my own work, if I want it to, and the title will still be appropriate. As long as this title is successful, I won’t have to create another title to do anything that my career points me towards; it can all be under this title. So, yeah, if I can keep going, then this could go well over 100 issues. But, on the other hand, and as we’ve seen from the past, I’ve been drawn on various detours which I had no regrets over, and I have learned from and benefited from them, so tomorrow I could get a call from somebody offering an opportunity of

a collaboration that could take me to a whole other world. But, as of today, I’m really happy where I’m at. MM: And, speaking of diversions, how is the Madman movie coming along, especially now, in light of the writers strike? MIKE: It was coming on great. From my perspective, it just needed one more polish. We were talking about a start date of March, and any work that needed to be done on the screenplay could be done before that time. Then the writers strike put a stop to everything. The script hasn’t been submitted, so we couldn’t even prove that what we’ve got done already was done before the strike. So that’s it, it’s on hold. But I’ve gotten used to it. [laughter] There’s always something. MM: Are you a member of the guild? MIKE: I am, yes. MM: I figured you probably were. You’ve been expanding in other areas, too. There’s the action figure that just came out. And it’s not just in comics stores, you can find it in Wal-Mart. MIKE: Oh, yeah. MM: How much impact do you think that might have on the comic? MIKE: I don’t know. I don’t know if it will have any impact at all. I certainly haven’t heard from anybody that picked up the comic book because they saw the action figure. But, for me, personally, and going back to that little boy in myself, it’s a huge thrill to be able to tell your mom to go to Wal-Mart to see something that you created. On that level it’s exciting and very satisfying. I love that there’s something that accessible of mine. And, when it comes down to it, that’s what the movie is going to be, for me, just to where something that I’ve created will be known to everybody, that they would have at least heard of it. Even though the comic book will always be the most important thing to me, you just can’t sneeze at having something in everybody’s living room and in everybody’s town, and accessible to any movie theater in the world, to end up on the shelves where DVDs are sold. Fun!

Part 6:

A Day in the Life— the Creative Process There are eight two-page spreads on each sheet. So, with two pages of this template, I can then, with more detailed layouts, thumbnail the whole book. From there, I start working on the full-size pages. I’ve got a pretty good idea of what I’m doing. I just start and draw it up big.

MM: What’s a typical day in your life like now? Do you have a set schedule that you try to stick to, or does it just kind of change from day to day?

MIKE: I try to keep a real steady Monday through Friday nine-to-five. Laura’s wonderful in how she takes care of the kids, makes sure that everything is okay with them, gets our daughter to school on time, that sort of thing. When she gets back, she’s on the computer if there’s anything that I’ve got for her to color. For me, my day starts with a breakfast, and getting to the drawing table, and I just get to work. We take a lunch break, and we’ll usually watch a movie or something together. We try to do something as a family on Saturdays, but recently I’ve been behind schedule, so I’ve been working on Saturdays, too. But most of the time we try to give ourselves Saturday. And then Sunday’s just kick back and do nothing day, and Monday’s back hard to work. But “hard to work” is not true. [laughter] There’s nothing hard about what I do. It’s just pure fun.

MM: Describe a bit more about the animated cel approach you’re applying to the backgrounds. MIKE: On the book I’m working on now I’m experimenting with this, and I’ve tried it once already. I just did an eight-page “Stardust” story for The Next Issue Project. When I read the script, it was almost like a oneact play. It starts with this art deco city that’s described, and then on the first page it’s like a camera is tilting down over the city, and as the camera tilts down, something different is happening in each panel. What the script asked for was for these characters to be semi-transparent, ghostly, like we’re seeing things that had happened in the past over this cityscape with these old public-domain heroes. I’m not going to draw them semitransparent. [laughter] And so I thought, “Well, I can do what I did with my Spaceman one-shot. I can do the backgrounds separately from the figures.” I knew that I could then change the transparency of them and have them be semi-transparent. There were really only two sets—the detailed cityscape and a balcony off of a building overlooking this city. So I really worked overtime making these back-

MM: When you’re working for yourself, how tightly do you pencil? Do you just do rough layouts, or just block stuff in? How far do you go with that? MIKE: Well, I always start with an outline, and the outline becomes a script. I figure out the pacing and what I need to happen in that issue, and on the actual script pages I will draw a little rough composition, just a little... I wouldn’t even call it a thumbnail, it’s just barely anything, to where I get some placement of the characters. I made a template that I can print out from the computer. 81

grounds very lush. Since I was going to be drawing the character separately, I knew that I could reuse the background over the different panels throughout the story, much in the same way a short animated film or cartoon will use the same animated background over again. I could justify spending all this time to do this lushly detailed rendering of the city—and also the balcony—because I did it big enough that I could move the characters around and use different parts of it. I was able to work on it so quickly, and had so much control over the characters and how I composed them and recomposed them, that I thought I would apply this to the next issue of Madman Atomic Comics, and it’s allowed me to do these really lush backgrounds. I should go back a bit, though. We talked about Al Columbia a bit. Al kind of fell off the face of the planet for a while—and there are many different stories as to why—but Al is one of the most talented people I’ve ever met. We recently went to a show in Portland, and Al was there. He had done a gallery show in Portland and then just showed up at this convention—it turns out he was living in Portland. He had all of this work, which hasn’t been published yet, that just blew me away. A lot of the stuff he’d been playing with—and the best example of this is in Blab #10, and I highly recommend people finding this. It’s called “The Trumpets They Play,” and it’s this weird adaptation of

the “Book of Revelation” through the eyes of an old Fleischer Brothers cartoon, and then filtered through Al’s style, which is lush and crazy. He used the approach where he drew these lush backgrounds and then drew the characters separately. In getting the “Stardust” script, which practically called for me to attempt this technique, and also being reintroduced to and reignited by Al, it definitely lit my fuse into going in this direction. So if this all ends up badly, it’s Al’s fault. [laughter] If it all ends up wonderfully, then I definitely want to give a nod to Al for getting me excited about trying it this way. Ya gotta love the process. If you do, the process becomes progress.

Previous Page: Mike’s toned pencils for page 1 of Madman Atomic Comics #1. Top Left: Mike and Laura. Top Right: Mike’s toned pencils for Madman Atomic Comics #1, page 2. Madman ™ and ©2008 Michael Allred.

Mike Allred

Art Gallery

Above: Cover art for the Red Rocket 7 trade paperback collection. Next Page Top: Wraparound cover art for the Oni Press Summer Vacation Supercolor Fun Special. Next Page Bottom: Spider-Man promotional art. Page 92: Doop versus Thor! Who will win?!? Cover art for X-Statix #25. Page 93: Talk about going out with a bang, X-Statix faced off against the Avengers in a five-issue, all-out extravaganza.

Page 84: Madman sketchbook drawings. Page 85: Cover art for Red Rocket 7 #6. Page 86: Cover art for Madman Yearbook ’95. Page 87: Self-rejected, unpublished cover art intended for Madman Atomic Comics #1. Page 88: Mike’s inks and pencil tones for page 3 of Madman Atomic Comics #3. Page 89: Dance, monkey! Madman faces off against a cosmic monkey.

Above: Dead Girl and Tike Alicar trading card art for the Versus game system. Left: Cover art for Dead Girl #3. Next Page: Edie and Guy reunited in the afterlife! Cover art for Dead Girl #4. Pages 96 and 97: A pair of Fantastic Four covers (Marvel Knights 4 #23 and #24) featuring the Impossible Man! Colors by Laura Allred.

Left: Atomics pin-up penciled by Mike and painted by Alex Ross. Above: A Red Rocket 7 cel painting. Page 100: This image originally appeared in black-&-white on the back cover of Solo #7. Mike later drew in Batman’s eyes and Laura colored the piece. Page 101: Laura’s color guide for an unpublished Madman Comics cover. Page 102: Pin-up art of Bigby, Snow, and family—part of the ensemble cast of DC’s Fables series. Page 103: Colored pencil commission sketch of Sandman’s sister Delirium.

100

102

103

Previous Page: Page 8 of the “Stardust” story (sans text) in Fantastic Comics #24 (a.k.a. Next Issue Project #1). The cityscape background of this page was drawn on a separate sheet much larger than normal size. Mike was then able to use Photoshop to incorporate pieces of this image as backgrounds for most of the panels in the story. Left: Cover pencils for Vertigo Visions: The Geek. Below: The Metal Men! Page 106: Cover art for the 2005 edition of Robert Mayer’s groundbreaking Superfolks. Page 107: Unpublished Star Wars illustration. Page 108-111: A few years back Mike pitched a World’s Finest story to DC, and he drew up several images for the pitch.

105

107

108

C 008 DC and ©2 rman ™ e p u S , Bizarro

omics.

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Right: A very recent Batman/Superman sketch. Below and Pages 113 & 114: More World’s Finest pitch illustrations. Page 115: Batman and Batgirl commission sketch. The obscure villain from Batman #180 Mike used in the piece goes by the not-so-original name of DeathMan.

113

114

116

Left: The original version of the cover to Madman Atomic Comics #6, which was changed at the last minute. An expanded version of this drawing appeared as the inside front cover of the issue. Right: And we seal this book with a kiss—Madman and... It Girl?!? With the seeming death of Joe at the end of Madman Atomic Comics #6, this is a sign of things to come!

If you are interested in owning your own piece of Mike Allred original art, just go to Simon Miller’s website: www.gotsuperpowers.com. Simon is Mike’s official art dealer, and has a great selection of Mike’s work both past and present which he is constantly updating. So check it out!

117

THE MODERN MASTERS SERIES Edited by ERIC NOLENWEATHINGTON, these trade paperbacks and DVDs are devoted to the BEST OF TODAY’S COMICS ARTISTS! Each book contains RARE AND UNSEEN ARTWORK direct from the artist’s files, plus COMPREHENSIVE INTERVIEWS (including influences and their views on graphic storytelling), SKETCHBOOK SECTIONS, and more! And don’t miss the companion DVDs, showing artists at work in their studios!

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MIKE ALLRED Just a few short years into his blossoming career, Mike Allred struck just the right chord when he introduced his hip, Pop-inspired creation — Madman! The series won the Harvey Award for Best New Series, and from there Allred was well on his way. Among his accomplishments in the comics industry, he created The Atomics and the critically acclaimed Red Rocket 7, as well as illustrated the fan-favorite X-Force/X-Statix series for Marvel Comics. And he’s also an actor, filmmaker, and musician! So pull on your go-go boots and do the watusi— it’s time to explore the weird and wonderfully way-out worlds of Mike Allred! MODERN MASTERS is an ongoing series of books celebrating the lives and work of the greatest comic book artists of our time. ISBN-13: 978-1-893905-86-3 ISBN-10: 1-893905-86-1

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